I am being shipped off to basic training on the 18th and unfortunatly have to sell my baby...1987 325is-m50tu swapped. I love it but I can't bring it with me. However...there were always things about it that I just couldnt make happen....like make it look like an m3 etc. Point being....I will have a bunch of money saved up from my bonus/pay/sale of car to buy a car in about 4 months. Is the m3 really a huge step up from the e30? Granted I wouldn't be using the s14 in it....I would be putting in an s50 at the least....but is it much better than my current car? And any pointers on buying one that somebody should know? IE: for regular e30s don't buy them before 88 because they have those big ugly bumpers. Thanks for the info guys.

Honestly if your in the Southern Cali area,I would LOVE to take you canyon carving.....Let me know!!!

Depends on what you want it for. An E30 M3 makes a GREAT track car, much better than a regular E30. A regular E30 makes a better daily driver.

If you are not going to use the S14 use a regular E30. Do a 5 lug swap and call it a day.

Honestly if your in the Southern Cali area,I would LOVE to take you canyon carving.....Let me know!!!

Just lemme know. I live in Laguna.

Just lemme know. I live in Laguna.
email me at cacorrales@adelphia.net or call me at (562)201-6524 .I have a buddy that lives in CDM so I'm in the area all the time!!! Carlos

If your just gunna tear out the engine and throw in an e36 motor, don't use an M3. And I'm not saying this as a purist. You'd be better off using a 325i, use e36 M3 front brakes and m-roadster rear brakes, throw in the s50/52. Remember the e30 m3 brakes are meant for a 200 hp car, not a 240+ hp plus car with a heavier engine. If its just the looks your after, well, then do what you want. Oh and if you do decide to go this way, your much better off finding and e30 M3 with the s50/52 swap already done, you'll end up saving a LOT of money that way.

Jeff

The S50 swap can still be pretty reasonable in an M3.

If you start with a 325is or 318is, the donor car (solid runner, good cosmetics) is worth around $3000. The engine that you take out is worth $500-700 MAX. The M20 and M42 are not that desireable. So, a rolling shell is $2300-2500.

If you start with an M3, the donor car is around $9000. You can sell the engine for around $3000. I am assuming a solid runner, with decent cosmetics, but not the best. You can sell the transmission and ECU for another $500 or so. The rolling shell is roughly $5500 for a solid platform.

Now, to get a 5 lug swap into the standard E30, you will spend around $800-1000. If you get the E30 M3 struts and steering knuckles to get the proper alignment in the front wheels, this will run a little more. So the cost of the rolling shell is higher, $3100-3500.

So the price difference between the two rolling shells is actually around $2000-2400. If you got an M Tech II body kit for the standard E30 the two rolling shells would roughly equal each other in price.

Or you find a non-running M3 for $2500 and then you actually get paid for the shell. :-)

Wow, that's a sweet deal! :D

And in TX, you won't have to really deal with ridiculous rust issues like in the northern states.

I thought about all of these issues, and it's just not worth buying the less expensive vehicles, then going sick upgrading it with E30 M3 parts when you could have just started with an E30 M3. Who knows, you just might fall in love with the S14!

The car came from Colorado, but didn't have much issues with rust (a few spots on the floorboards and the body fill plates under the seats).

I have had a E30 M3 2.3 and 2.5...this one will be a CM racer...and if I can find the right engine, a BM racer in the future.

If I didn't get paid for the shell I would have built what I am making with a regular E30 shell.

In terms of outright performance, no. The 325is is 90-95% of the M3. However, if two cars, an E30 M3 and an E30 325is pulled up to give students rides at a driver's school, guess which one people would be standing in line to get in? There is just something about an M3, the soul, the history, the look, the mystique, that people love and want to experience.

Personally, an M3 without an S14 to me is just a hot 325is with a body kit.

Buller - take my advice my e30 buddy. the way you set up your car, i freaking love it. its awesome the way it is already, only to be even so much better with an s50. i think you'd enjoy an s50 e30 so much more then an e30 m3. youre already used to the torque that your m50 produces, moving on up to an s50 will only make it better. going s14, youll have to wring the hell out of the engine just to move it. plus, s50s are way easier to maintain than the s14. ive read that s50s and s52s are pretty much bulletproof? s14s kill their owner's wallets like no other for rebuilds, just imagine the cost of a proper 2.5 build! extracting at least 275hp safely out of the s14 can cost the amount of very cheap e36 m3s! the cost to extract that out of an s50/s52 is chump change compared to that. s14s gotta stay with e30 m3s. they were made for each other.

ever hear of that infamous e30 m3 $15k rule, some even think of it now as the $20k rule?

e30 s50, the way to go! i wouldnt mind having one on the side as well.

plus, in terms of TRYING to make it look like an m3, I think the e30 sleeper look will be even better with the s50 under the hood. i always thought you were all about the sleeper look. plus, i thought you said my wing was rice :mad ? you down for rice as well :rolleyes ?

ps. saw you on friday in laguna beach. i was heading south, you north, but i wasnt driving the M. but your ride was hot. if i had the money, id buy it.

Yes it is that much better, for so many reasons. #1 Reason - All time winning DTM touring car of all time, you didnt see any 325's in there. Buy it its that much better, I have driven both cars back to back on road and track and there is such a difference. Suspension geometry is also very different.

its a tuff call.. my built s14 puts down 212 at the wheels on a dynojet and i have yet to do intake and cams... its beats 36 m3's and is a ball to drive. I have a 325 e30 as well. but i dont care how much power the car had i would still jump in the m3 because its a blast all the time!!! Hope this helps

Buller - take my advice my e30 buddy. the way you set up your car, i freaking love it. its awesome the way it is already, only to be even so much better with an s50. i think you'd enjoy an s50 e30 so much more then an e30 m3. youre already used to the torque that your m50 produces, moving on up to an s50 will only make it better. going s14, youll have to wring the hell out of the engine just to move it. plus, s50s are way easier to maintain than the s14. ive read that s50s and s52s are pretty much bulletproof? s14s kill their owner's wallets like no other for rebuilds, just imagine the cost of a proper 2.5 build! extracting at least 275hp safely out of the s14 can cost the amount of very cheap e36 m3s! the cost to extract that out of an s50/s52 is chump change compared to that. s14s gotta stay with e30 m3s. they were made for each other.

ever hear of that infamous e30 m3 $15k rule, some even think of it now as the $20k rule?

e30 s50, the way to go! i wouldnt mind having one on the side as well.

plus, in terms of TRYING to make it look like an m3, I think the e30 sleeper look will be even better with the s50 under the hood. i always thought you were all about the sleeper look. plus, i thought you said my wing was rice :mad ? you down for rice as well :rolleyes ?

ps. saw you on friday in laguna beach. i was heading south, you north, but i wasnt driving the M. but your ride was hot. if i had the money, id buy it.

The rice thing was a joke. :rofl The m3 looks perfect from every angle. I would be putting an s50 into the e30 m3 when I get it. I will have some money to toss around and I'm highly considering getting a pre swapped s50 e30 m3 or just doing it myself.

The rice thing was a joke. :rofl The m3 looks perfect from every angle. I would be putting an s50 into the e30 m3 when I get it. I will have some money to toss around and I'm highly considering getting a pre swapped s50 e30 m3 or just doing it myself.

s50/s52 powered e30 m3. tsk tsk tsk. so sad. oh well. gluck to you.

s50/s52 powered e30 m3. tsk tsk tsk. so sad. oh well. gluck to you.

For m3 owners you guys really like to go slow.

E30s with an M20 are already too nose heavy and handle like shit compared to any high performance cars like an E46 M3 or C5 Vette. In my opinion an E30 M3 is up there too, or atleast has the potential to easily be. It's designed as a race car.

I can't imagine what would happen if you added that pig of an engine S50 into an E30... I would not want to be driving that.

And I promise you, an E30 M3 with some light mods and an S14 will take an E30 M3 with 150lbs more weight right over the front axle.

Don't ruin an M3 with an S50 engine. Save the M3's for the really really rich people who can afford to pay 30k dollars for a 2.5l race engine.

I don't understand why people think cars need more power... The whole idea behind the E30 M3 is to have a light car with a small engine so it fucking handles well, unless you rebuild the entire front end out of carbon fiber, no E30 M3 with an S50 will handle as well as an E30 M3 with an S14. And I doubt the straight line speed will make up for it either. An S14 with some bolt ons isn't making much less power than an S50... Alot less torque? Yes. But, IMO, where it' making the power 5-8k RPM's is really imortant too.

To some it up, E30 M3's are too special to be destroyed by being turned into fat pigs.

EDIT: Those German guys knew what they were doing. Why didn't they just add in an S38 into the E30 M3 when they designed it? The S38 being the same weight as the S50. Why did they put in a large displacement four cylinder... For the handling characteristics in provides. By swapping in an S50, you're completely destroying a brilliant car. It's the equivalent of putting a GM Ecotec 4 cylinder in a Silverado pickup. It's just the wrong application. Please don't do it. :(

How does a 24 lbs in engine weight difference make an E30 with M20 nose heavy? :conf

I weighed my E30 325i a few years ago. Weighed in @ 2832lbs (no driver and 1/4 tank of gas). Most M3s I saw on scales were a 2870+ w/o driver.

I do agree the a STOCK E30 M3 does handle better than that STOCK E30 325.

Both cars can be prepared to same level . . . since most of the E30 M3 suspension parts can be installed on a plain ole E30.

S50/2 in place of an S14. . . .meh . . .do whatca like :D

DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT

Why not keep your E30 . . . . drop in an S50/2, swap over the 5-lug off a E36 Front and M Coupe/Roadster rear, some good suspension bits, and call it a day . . . .:devillook

How does a 24 lbs in engine weight difference make an E30 with M20 nose heavy?


Its not necessarily the weight, its where you put it. In the M20/S50 case, it hangs quite far over the front axle when compared to an S14. Thats the difference, and it isnt a small one.

That being said, short of actually racing, who cares what engine is in the front of the car? So, throw in an S50 if you like, it's not as if you are going to head to the track and win a DE anytime soon.

Will

Haha, this is truely a highly divisive topic. On the one hand, you have purists who want to cling to the S14 powerplant because it immaculately conceived Jesus, and on the other, you have those dope smoking drag racers who want to stuff as big a powerplant as possible into the E30 M3. :D OK, a little bit of embellishment there.

Let me respond to some of GreekDriver's HIGHLY polarized comments.

I can't imagine what would happen if you added that pig of an engine S50 into an E30... I would not want to be driving that.Yeah, that might cause you to drive into a tree while you're putt-putting around town. :rolleyes Positively dangerous, like swimming right after you eat, or going outside in the winter without a hat on.

And I promise you, an E30 M3 with some light mods and an S14 will take an E30 M3 with 150lbs more weight right over the front axle.
Where will the E30 M3 take the heavier E30 M3? Where's this mystical 150 lbs coming from? The weight difference is not that large. It overhangs the front axle, which does affect the handling. Does it make the E30 into an untameable beast? I seriously doubt it.

Don't ruin an M3 with an S50 engine. Save the M3's for the really really rich people who can afford to pay 30k dollars for a 2.5l race engine.
Why? Us poor people can't have a little fun? Let's face it, an S50/52 conversion is not free. Whether you rebuild the S14 or swap in an S50, the price will be both fairly high.

And I doubt the straight line speed will make up for it either. An S14 with some bolt ons isn't making much less power than an S50... Alot less torque? Yes. But, IMO, where it' making the power 5-8k RPM's is really imortant too.
This is just pure speculation.

To some it up, E30 M3's are too special to be destroyed by being turned into fat pigs.
They won't be "destroyed" by the conversion. The S50 conversion is quite seamless, and requires NO modifications to the front end of the car. You could leave the S14 in your garage and after you spend your last dime putting a CF intake, Alpha N, 2.5L crank and pistons, etc etc. you can install it into your pride and joy and throw away that garbage :D S50. In spectacular fashion, maybe you could take the air filter off, and take a whiz into the AFM to hydrolock it.

EDIT: Those German guys knew what they were doing. Why didn't they just add in an S38 into the E30 M3 when they designed it? The S38 being the same weight as the S50. Why did they put in a large displacement four cylinder... For the handling characteristics in provides. By swapping in an S50, you're completely destroying a brilliant car. It's the equivalent of putting a GM Ecotec 4 cylinder in a Silverado pickup. It's just the wrong application. Please don't do it. :(
Hey, I'll tell you exactly why they didn't put in the S38. To be competitive in FIA Group A racing, the engine displacement had to be between 1600 and 2500 cc. The S38 in its smallest incarnation was 3.6L.

Hey, I'll tell you exactly why they didn't put in the S38. To be competitive in FIA Group A racing, the engine displacement had to be between 1600 and 2500 cc. The S38 in its smallest incarnation was 3.6L.
Well, technically 3.5L. ;) The S38B35 was installed in the E28 M5 and US E24 M6.

But seriously, if you want a faster E30, don't use an E30 M3. Base cost is higher and doesn't net you a whole helluva lot over the regular E30 other than basically a body kit, 5-lug hubs, and marginally larger brakes.

And no, us guys with S14s don't "want to go slow", because for about $4k in engine mods and tuning you can have 240-250 crank HP with the AFM, and more without it (Split Second or alpha-n). Combine that with ~2800lbs, and you get a very fast car indeed. Mine has a 215HP Evo-2 engine and keeps up fairly well with E36 M3s. Not bad for a car/engine that were designed before 1986. Revving to 8000RPMs is highly desirable for track use because it gives you quite a large area under the torque and HP curves without variable valve timing and other, newer technical gizmos.

Stealing the heart out of an E30 M3 is very controversial. It's like telling RX-7 owners to dump their rotary. So IMHO, don't convert an E30 M3, do it to a regular E30 and use the $$ saved to upgrade the brakes, get some really good dampers, diff, bushings all around, etc.

Oops! I stand corrected!

Haha, James that was a valiant effort trying to convince us regular E30 guys not to bastardize the M3 with a non-M engine like the S52B32 US :devillook... It was a well-written counterpoint.

I guess if you want to head to the track, you should retain the S14, that way you don't put yourself into a different class of cars. If you want to drive on the street and lower the amount of maintenance (i.e. valve adjustments) you might want to consider the S50. The 2.5L kits that I've seen all use aftermarket forged pistons, which generally have a larger ring-to-cylinder wall clearance (I think .040 for Wisecos), which means less wear life until you have to tear into the engine again. Of course, that is the fear that I have when I eventually buy an M3...

For m3 owners you guys really like to go slow.

damn buller, thats not how us s14 guys see it.

nuf said... e30 non-M with s50/52. that would suit you nicely. just save your car and swap out the m50 for s50/52! fast e30 while allowing remaining e30 m3 s14s to live on in harmony :buttrock

"only you can prevent further e30 m3 bastardization" ;)

allowing remaining e30 m3 s14s to live on in harmony.

"only you can prevent further e30 m3 bastardization"
Ditto!

all I ask is that if you REALLY want to put an S50 in your M3, it better be the euro S50B32!

And if you DO get an M3 to swap the engine into, get a rolling shell!

I think you should hold an anonymous poll of whether you should or should not do the swap into an E30 M3.

That way people can vote without being judged.

another vote for non-M E30 with S50/S52

I say do what you want.

For normal day-to-day driving and everyday tractibility, I say a swap makes a lot of sense. Even if you go to a few HPDEs and auto-Xs a year, the car will still handle fine. Maybe you will give up some handling to other drivers, but in most cases, not enough to make a huge difference.

The proposed swap does not require ANY modification to the chassis. At any time you can swap the S14 back in.

Not having driven a S50 swapped E30 M3, I will say that the stock M3 feels very nimble up front. How much this affects the front end I don't really know.

For a direct comparison of a worked 2.5L S14 (Gustave from E30M3 Performance) and an OBD-I S52, I extracted dyno data from Dyno Spot Racing.

Sure, there might be a discrepancy in the humidity and temperature, but these are second order effects in comparison to the engine. Because the dynos were done at the same facility, the elevation remains the same, and the dyno is the same. I have attached the graph to this post.

Gustave worked to make sure that he didn't hot up the cams too much because he wanted to be able to maintain good flow velocities (hence torque) at lower rpms for Auto-X.

Even with this design goal in mind, the graph illustrates there is a 30-50 lbs-ft rear wheel measured torque difference between the engines throughout the entire powerband, except at around 6900-7000 RPM where the S52 takes a crap.

This graph shows that for most all engine builds, the S52 will pack a bigger torque punch than the S14. The area under the curve where you will be operating the car on a track will just be larger for the S52 in spite of the 8000 rpm redline of the S14. Which is not to say that Gustave's S14 has quite a nice torque band from 3500-8000 rpm that I would not mind having at all. :D

So, take the graph for what it's worth. I'm just presenting data. You can draw your own conclusions. ;)