Okay guys, this is a decision my father and I need to make about the direction of his E30 M3.

The car is completed, and is now awaiting an engine..he pretty much knows what he wants to build but we figure there's two ways of going about it and I'd like to gather some advice as to which would be best.

S14 Specs we wish to build:

2.5L, 48mm TBs, 290/290 cams, maxx alpha N, DTM CF airbox, EVO header.

I know I'm leaving some stuff out but that's the general idea of the motor.

First of all, which plenum runner diameter for the DTM airbox would be most effective on this type of motor? I have noticed there are several lengths available and am not sure exactly how they will affect the overal feel of the engine. We are going for plain area under the curve, from what I've gathered the 290/290 camset will make it a less peaky engine.

Now, we have put some thought into just trying to pick up an EVO motor from europe and rebuilding the top-end to our specs and adding the alpha N, along with a general re-freshing of the engine. Not sure if this will be a cost effective plan, any input is appreciated.

If we just rebuild his 2.3L lump, will we have to throw in port-matching on the intake AND exhaust side after the 48mm TBs and EVO header?


He's got 10 g's to build this motor, we wanna do it right. Any help and advice is welcome and much appreciated. He reads S14.net religiously but i gotta teach him how to get on a forum and start posting and asking questions..my pops is new to this forum stuff, lol.

You, my friend, have a very, very cool father!

Unless you are doing the work yourself, $10g is not going to come close to covering what you want. Assuming you rebuild his lump:

Cams: $1100
Airbox, A/N/ WBO2: $4000
Header: $1800
Timing Components: $1000
2.5 Kit (Assumed you would go this way): $2500
48 mm TBs: $1500

This is only the big stuff and you are already at nearly $10k before you even get someone to do the work. My recommendation would be to build the engine by itself, then add the Airbox, A/N etc later.

As for your questions, if you want area under the curve, by the 17cm runner length Airbox with the 48mm throttles (so they match). And yes, port matching would be an excellent idea, moreso on the intake side than the exhaust.

Check out Gustave's rebuild on E30M3performance.com. It will help.

Will

thanks for the info..about the airbox runner length, that setup is pretty much what I had figured but thanks for the +1 on that!

the 10k figure is pretty much set aside for parts anyways...so he should be able to get most everything he needs. And also, the longer it takes for us to decide on what to do and start buying parts the more $$ he will have to work with. I'm not against building the engine ourselves, I've been trying to convince him to do it with me in his garage cuz i think it'd be a fun project. At that rate the only job we'll need to outsource is the port matching, some dyno time, and in the case of rebuilding the 2.3L we'll have to find somebody to clean up the block and deck the head, but we could deliver these parts already disassembled so these are bare-minimum costs for labor. Most of the A/N tuning will be done off data logs and real-world driving anyways because, like I said, he's not after a number on a dyno and driveability is very important so real-world/real-load tuning would be essential to part-throttle AND full-throttle smoothness.

Any info on sourcing an EVO lump? The only pricing info I've found is off bimmerworld and they have an extremely limited supply.

Whats he going to use the motor/car for. A well built 2.3 with an Alpha N and listed mods will make a monster out of that S14. And save quite a few dollars on the build, but to each his own. But I always thought that if the motor didnt need to be rebuilt why do it? Just another thought to your project...please dont hate.

I'm in the middle of a 2.5 build right now myself- it isnt cheap. I would do more than just a port matching if you are going to do it. You'll also need upgraded valve springs (Evolution or otherwise) to make sure you dont have any issues there. This will obviously increase the money factor. Buying a used motor isnt worth it by the time it is shipped here etc. IMHO especially if all you are going to do is freshen it up. The header wont do much until you have everything else done, and then it will still be a small performance difference. I would get a 50/50 Euro non-cat header, significantly less money that the Grp. A etc. that are the same diamater piping. If you havent rebuilt an expensive motor, this isnt the time to learn.

Whats he going to use the motor/car for. A well built 2.3 with an Alpha N and listed mods will make a monster out of that S14. And save quite a few dollars on the build, but to each his own. But I always thought that if the motor didnt need to be rebuilt why do it? Just another thought to your project...please dont hate.

The car is just a project, something he's been wanting to build for quite a while now. What of it when it's completed? Sunday-Fun-day car..and I'll probably take it to some bimmer shows. You're right, a 2.3 with those mods would be fun..but it's no EVO motor ;). He's building the S14 we never got the chance to buy here in the US.


I'm in the middle of a 2.5 build right now myself- it isnt cheap. I would do more than just a port matching if you are going to do it. You'll also need upgraded valve springs (Evolution or otherwise) to make sure you dont have any issues there. This will obviously increase the money factor. Buying a used motor isnt worth it by the time it is shipped here etc. IMHO especially if all you are going to do is freshen it up. The header wont do much until you have everything else done, and then it will still be a small performance difference. I would get a 50/50 Euro non-cat header, significantly less money that the Grp. A etc. that are the same diamater piping. If you havent rebuilt an expensive motor, this isnt the time to learn.

Thanks for the opinion on importing an EVO motor...much the same as I had suspected from pricing I have found. That is the header I was speaking of, we just want the one that came on the european cars, and since it's Florida and it'll be a weekend car cats aren't too important. Valve springs was one of those big things I left off the list. I should probably shoot over to my parents house and get the full list and post it up, then we can really see if anything is missing.

As far as the headwork goes, I'm curious how much more a full job would cost over just the port-matching. From my experience it does not seem like something he's gonna wanna do, like I said he's not after that much HP, and full headworking tends to be on the less-appealing side of cost/gain ratios, but I'm fully aware that it's the only way to gain full potential from other engine mods.

And we are fully capable of any of the work that we will attempt. At 16 I had my 2.0 16v GTI in pieces doing cams and such during spring break instead of partying on the beach ;).

I think your dad's budget needs to be a little higher than $10k. some other things to consider. you may already thought of them since you built motors before.


I agree with Ydubbs, except the A/n w/ airbox
A/N w/ air box $2500
Header $800-$1800
Cams $1100
Timing Components: $1000
2.5 Kit (Assumed you would go this way): $2500
48 mm TBs: $1500

plus
Upgraded injectors for all that power $400
Rods $700-1000
and other maintance while your in there, Hoses, oil pump, water pump, thermostat, rod bearings, Head bolts, valve springs, motor mounts, tranny mounts.

Plus
Machine shop. should be at least $1000 depending on your areas rate.

Unless you are doing the work yourself, $10g is not going to come close to covering what you want. Assuming you rebuild his lump:

Cams: $1100
Airbox, A/N/ WBO2: $4000
Header: $1800
Timing Components: $1000
2.5 Kit (Assumed you would go this way): $2500
48 mm TBs: $1500


Check out Gustave's rebuild on E30M3performance.com. It will help.

Will

im gonna update some prices:
cams: 900$ (check s14.net)
airbox w/ A/N: 2200$ (http://www.s14.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15338)
header: 800$ (give or take for shipping)
timing: 1000$
2.5 kit: 2500$ (but if you know where to go, you can have it for 2g's)
48 mm TBs: 1500$ this one you really cant get a deal on.

that should save you about 2 g's. i think a GB for some dtm or 11.1 CR street pistons is going on now.

With the Airbox and AN, you have to use a WBO2 to tune the sucker. Period. We all know this. TE kit is $800 shipped. And as far as prices, why count on GB's or used parts? Quote new stuff, and then save the money, rather than quoting used and going over budget.

For Airbox, I am thinking the whole kit; box, intake snorkel and air filter housing, plus shipping. Then there's the cost of messing something up on the install and needing replacement parts. I know this from experience, I put all this in over the summer.

Airbox w/ Alpha N is $2260 EU (1.2 conversion) = $2712 USD
Filter Housing: $175
WBO2: $800

Total: ~$4000 w/ Shipping

Not trying to split hairs, just had some time at the end of the work day.

Will

Following your link Shahe, the quote on the airbox has to be for the little one (46mm w/ 15 cm runners). Add another couple hundred for the one needed in this application.

Will

With the Airbox and AN, you have to use a WBO2 to tune the sucker. Period. We all know this. TE kit is $800 shipped. And as far as prices, why count on GB's or used parts? Quote new stuff, and then save the money, rather than quoting used and going over budget.

For Airbox, I am thinking the whole kit; box, intake snorkel and air filter housing, plus shipping. Then there's the cost of messing something up on the install and needing replacement parts. I know this from experience, I put all this in over the summer.

Airbox w/ Alpha N is $2260 EU (1.2 conversion) = $2712 USD
Filter Housing: $175
WBO2: $800

Total: ~$4000 w/ Shipping

Not trying to split hairs, just had some time at the end of the work day.

Will

thanks for all the help guys, after all, this is what this research is for..i'm glad everyone's willing to help. You're right about the WBO2, he was talking to me about it the other day i just had no idea what he was talking about. I figure i should hop on S14.net myself and do a little research so I can learn about this conversion. So far everything I have gathered about it is just from talking to my dad about the project.

I think your dad's budget needs to be a little higher than $10k. some other things to consider. you may already thought of them since you built motors before.


I agree with Ydubbs, except the A/n w/ airbox
A/N w/ air box $2500
Header $800-$1800
Cams $1100
Timing Components: $1000
2.5 Kit (Assumed you would go this way): $2500
48 mm TBs: $1500

plus
Upgraded injectors for all that power $400
Rods $700-1000
and other maintance while your in there, Hoses, oil pump, water pump, thermostat, rod bearings, Head bolts, valve springs, motor mounts, tranny mounts.

Plus
Machine shop. should be at least $1000 depending on your areas rate.

This list compiled so far is just for what we need to go from stock S14 to nicely modded EVO motor. We haven't forgotten about all the essentials needed while rebuilding a motor, but the rod bearings come with the 2.5 bottom end kit. Valve springs will be motorsport kit, and ARP head bolts are sold at turner.

I will drop by my parent's house tomorrow and grab the full list that my dad has come up with and post it up in the evening. We'll see where we stand so far. Till then..thanks for the all the help :) I can't wait till we get started on this thing

With the Airbox and AN, you have to use a WBO2 to tune the sucker. Period. We all know this. TE kit is $800 shipped. And as far as prices, why count on GB's or used parts? Quote new stuff, and then save the money, rather than quoting used and going over budget.

For Airbox, I am thinking the whole kit; box, intake snorkel and air filter housing, plus shipping. Then there's the cost of messing something up on the install and needing replacement parts. I know this from experience, I put all this in over the summer.

Airbox w/ Alpha N is $2260 EU (1.2 conversion) = $2712 USD
Filter Housing: $175
WBO2: $800

Total: ~$4000 w/ Shipping

Not trying to split hairs, just had some time at the end of the work day.

Will

i understand will. but not everyone wants to (or can tune their own alpha/n.)

either way, 10g's is too low for a nice 2.5, especially like the one he wants.

Either way, 10g's is too low for a nice 2.5, especially like the one he wants.

Without a doubt.

FYI, Stefan and Gunni are trying to get a hold of you.

Will

Without a doubt.

FYI, Stefan and Gunni are trying to get a hold of you.

Will
yea, i know, i sent him a messege.

Fifty-
Check your e-mail. I'm in Vero Beach- I can help with parts!

Take Care-

I had to update my e-mail address, it probably got sent back because that address was de-activated. Please send it again, and thanks for the help!

Can anybody provide information about getting a sport evo engine from europe? Even if it delays the finishing of the project it is still something we want to check out...oil squirters are fun. The only place I've found is bimmerworld, i'm guessing they have a waiting list I need to give them a call sometime this week.

Anybody know of anyone finding these on more of a private venture that might be willing to help?

They only made 600 of them 15 years ago. Thru attrition figure the number available is lower. They are going to be nearly impossible to find. I would probably just buy a new E3 block pistons and squirters and use the rest of the parts from a 2.3 unless you want to upgrade some of them.

I had to update my e-mail address, it probably got sent back because that address was de-activated. Please send it again, and thanks for the help!

Can anybody provide information about getting a sport evo engine from europe? Even if it delays the finishing of the project it is still something we want to check out...oil squirters are fun. The only place I've found is bimmerworld, i'm guessing they have a waiting list I need to give them a call sometime this week.

Anybody know of anyone finding these on more of a private venture that might be willing to help?

Please drop me an e-mail- E30M3TheRealM3 (at) aol.com

Take Care-
Don

They only made 600 of them 15 years ago. Thru attrition figure the number available is lower. They are going to be nearly impossible to find. I would probably just buy a new E3 block pistons and squirters and use the rest of the parts from a 2.3 unless you want to upgrade some of them.


we talked last night about just getting the 2.5 block assembly, ditching the pistons and rods in favor of aftermarket (mainly for the C/R). from what i've gathered the 2.5 block strength and oil squirters are a big plus for building something with close to 270hp. hmpf...so many options.

Don,

I will shoot you an e-mail when I get home from work. Thanks again!

we talked last night about just getting the 2.5 block assembly, ditching the pistons and rods in favor of aftermarket (mainly for the C/R). from what i've gathered the 2.5 block strength and oil squirters are a big plus for building something with close to 270hp. hmpf...so many options.


If I were building up a 2.5 from scratch I would probably use the stock pistons or use a piston with something close to stock compression. If it were a track only motor then the story is different. Using the TMS so called "D Mod" chip is just asking for trouble on a 2.5 with 11.25:1 or compression. That chip came with the 2.5 I bought it had horrible midrange pinging problems. A friend's 2.5 with the same chip died a horrible death due to pinging with that chip. Be careful.

this is what it's goin in..sorry for the crappy pics.

we changed the tan interior for a black on grey thing. had the rear seat done up in sparco jacquard with perforated leather patches to match the fronts, and the evo rear spoiler is in the dining room waiting for paint. Ground control suspension, UUC SSK, backlit E36 knob, wheels TBD.

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a299/gldntkt/DSCN0597.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a299/gldntkt/DSCN0596.jpg

http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a299/gldntkt/DSCN0595.jpg

Check out
Redline Motorsports - Ron Checca - Builds great 2.5 s14's - Call and see what he can do with your budget.
Turner Motorsport - Great 2.5 S14's
e30m3performance - Tips on engine tech, suspension tech, and everything relating to the E30 M3.
s14shop (dot) de - Great hard to find items, i.e. - Alpha N Engine Management, Carbon Plenum Bundle. - Only recomended for serious track use, but holy shit you should hear one of those at full song with the carbon box and Exhaust. Good luck, Cool Dad!!!

I jsut wrote a longer explanation of this and it got erased somehow.