I want to race my 96 m3 coupe in STU next season. Right now that car is stock other than hawk hp+ pads.

I'm trying to decide what will be the best modification to make first. I know a lot of people will say a racing school and I plan on doing some driving schools also, but i want to know what i can actually do to the car.

I'd really like to get the turn in a little better. Compaired to the talon i had, this car doesn't feel very nimble. I read that the x-brace helps this but it would put me in BSP, wouldn't it? Would sway bars be a good start or should i just save up for coilovers?

Thanks for the help.

wheels (17x9 is best) with good tires, coilovers, sway bars, camber are the first things to pay attention to.

wheels (17x9 is best) with good tires, coilovers, sway bars, camber are the first things to pay attention to.
is that also the order you'd go?

it has staggered contours now with 225 and 245 kuhmo mx tires. I've thought about getting some race rubber and just racing stock class too, but I noticed that the RX8s pretty much swept BS last year at nationals

when u going to drop that turbo ahahha

swapped strut hats (free), and 255s all around

is that also the order you'd go?

it has staggered contours now with 225 and 245 kuhmo mx tires. I've thought about getting some race rubber and just racing stock class too, but I noticed that the RX8s pretty much swept BS last year at nationals

you cant use race rubber in STU.


Check out this thread... it's pretty detailed and written by John V.... who went from a E36 M3 in BS to a RX8 in BS.

http://bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=253505&highlight=setting

Yeah, that probably is the order I'd go.. Although I'd swap strut hats for some front camber until you can do plates.

On a budget you can probably find a good bit of this (with the exception of new tires) used..
< plug> I have a set of Bilstein PSS9s for sale.. 4th in STX in the dry, same setup as the 2nd place M3 in STU. < /plug>

you cant use race rubber in STU.


Check out this thread... it's pretty detailed and written by John V.... who went from a E36 M3 in BS to a RX8 in BS.

http://bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=253505&highlight=setting

thanks for the link. That was very helpful

If i went to race rubber i'd compete is BS instead of STU.

I think it's kind of interesting how many people decide what class they're going to run based on national results, even if they have no intention of going to nationals.

Sure, on a national level you'll be more competitive if you set the car up in STU and run there, but an M3 can be very competitive on a local level in stock, SP and STU. I would set the car up for what class you really want to compete in or better - for the class that has the most competition in your region.

If I were going to run an M3 in STU I'd start with what Greg said. Wheels and tires first along with camber and a good alignment. Shocks and springs next. A set of el-cheapo 17x8.5" Koseis with a set of similarly el-cheapo 245/40/17 Kumho MX's in concert with some camber shimming will go a long way locally.

i think ST* is a great class. it allows all the relatively cheap/easy/fun mods w/o the cost of rcomps. i ran Rcomps last year and it was just too much. the cost, their wear rate, swapping wheels in the 98F/98% summer was hell. infact i got heat stroke once :P

this year i'm going for simplicity. konis, h&r springs, swaybarbarians coming soon, swapped strut hats, and Azenis (255s). i also plan to daily drive on the azenis so i'm not touching wheels at all. it will be great :)

plus a lot of my friends are driving the STis in STU so itll be fun competition.

i'm moving to oklahoma in a week.. i was looking for a co-drive if you're willing to take on one. either way, i can help you out with your build up.. i've been working on my friend's m3 (in sig) for the past year or so setup for stu..

i'm still relatively a rookie.. this is my 2nd year of competition, but i can help with some instruction on your auto-x driving as well..

If I were going to run an M3 in STU I'd start with what Greg said. Wheels and tires first along with camber and a good alignment. Shocks and springs next. A set of el-cheapo 17x8.5" Koseis with a set of similarly el-cheapo 245/40/17 Kumho MX's in concert with some camber shimming will go a long way locally.

My formula for 2006. look out Mike Neary! :D

...If I were going to run an M3 in STU I'd start with what Greg said. Wheels and tires first along with camber and a good alignment. Shocks and springs next. A set of el-cheapo 17x8.5" Koseis with a set of similarly el-cheapo 245/40/17 Kumho MX's in concert with some camber shimming will go a long way locally.

What he said!

My car only has shocks, swaybars, camber plates, & X-brace, and it's decently competitive in BSP (locally of course). Delete the X-brace and that's a great starting point for STU. Keep the wheels as light as possible, get some decently grippy tires, and go kick some STi ass!

edit: from experience I can tell you that springs would be a good thing to add to that mix. In fact, that's the next step for me (can't afford coilovers:mad ).

hey rob, the only thing i have to add is that with non-staggered wheels, my new car feels more reponsive than the one you now have. remove the stagger and you take away some understeer. also, get the alignment as aggressive as you can. IIRC, i had some very slight toe-out set on the car, but you'll have to check the records.

I think other than good wheels/tires and alignment, the next step would be really good shocks, if that's allowed in STU.

In the last 1.5 years I took my car from BSP to STU to SM back to STU and can tell you pretty much anything you want to know about those classes. I am not going to do a random nonpointed ramble here but will answer any specific questions that you have.

This is a good thread. I'm moving to STS next year myself next year from DS. I had a stock 328i with out the sports suspension. I now have the sports suspension springs, bilstien HD's, 28mm H&R adjustable front sway, stock rear sports suspension sway and run 215x16 Azeniz on some Alutec wheels.

I want to add the conforti intake, motor-force camber plates, shark injection, SS brake lines, M3 solid bushings front and rear (already replaced the front control arms) and go over all the fluids.

2 items I would like to consider replacing are the springs and shock/struts. Really not interested in CO's at the moment, but would like some adjustable shocks and a recommendation on springs. What are you finding to be a good combo? I may do a national level event, but I like the local competition the best for local bragging rights (and I'm still looking for those rights!)

Another question I had was what is the real difference between sports suspension springs and M3 springs. Used M3's should be cheap. Is there a difference? If so, any body have a cheap set for sale?

Thoughts---suggestions for an economic setup? The car is a daily driver, so I don't want to make the ride to brutal for the daily commute.

thanks

hey rob, the only thing i have to add is that with non-staggered wheels, my new car feels more reponsive than the one you now have. remove the stagger and you take away some understeer. also, get the alignment as aggressive as you can. IIRC, i had some very slight toe-out set on the car, but you'll have to check the records.

I think other than good wheels/tires and alignment, the next step would be really good shocks, if that's allowed in STU.
I missed the part about the stagger, but I definitely agree. I'm still trying to get slow speed understeer out of my car with equal size wheels/tires.

As for alignment, here's what I run:
F camber = -2.4 degrees (the most I can get; I'd like about -3.5 if I could get it)
F castor = stock, or slightly more
F toe = -.10 to -.15 degrees (toe out)
R camber = stock (-1.75)
R toe = 0


Thoughts---suggestions for an economic setup? The car is a daily driver, so I don't want to make the ride to brutal for the daily commute.
I don't have any advice about adjustable shocks, but my setup (Bilstein Sports, stock springs, TMS swaybars, X-brace) is pretty reasonable on the road. The ride is firmer and it gets a little bouncy on chopped up superslab, but overall it's very tolerable as a daily driver. My bushings (with the exception of the urethane bushing in the camber plates) are all still stock, so I'm sure that helps.


In the last 1.5 years I took my car from BSP to STU to SM back to STU and can tell you pretty much anything you want to know about those classes. I am not going to do a random nonpointed ramble here but will answer any specific questions that you have.
Prepare to get some PMs :evil2 (or email if you prefer)

I missed the part about the stagger, but I definitely agree. I'm still trying to get slow speed understeer out of my car with equal size wheels/tires.

As for alignment, here's what I run:
F camber = -2.4 degrees (the most I can get; I'd like about -3.5 if I could get it)
F castor = stock, or slightly more
F toe = -.10 to -.15 degrees (toe out)
R camber = stock (-1.75)
R toe = 0



I don't have any advice about adjustable shocks, but my setup (Bilstein Sports, stock springs, TMS swaybars, X-brace) is pretty reasonable on the road. The ride is firmer and it gets a little bouncy on chopped up superslab, but overall it's very tolerable as a daily driver. My bushings (with the exception of the urethane bushing in the camber plates) are all still stock, so I'm sure that helps.



Prepare to get some PMs :evil2 (or email if you prefer)

I prefer email b/c PM takes too many damn steps to read and reply.

Yes, stagger MUST go. I run either 18x9 SSR Comps or 17x8.5 Fikse's on all four corners at all times.

As for your setup HSCC///M3. I do not agree with your alignment. Sure it'll rotate but you have NO straightline stability w/ zero toe in the rear. I run the setup recommended to me by TC Kline & Bob Tunnell as follows:

Front via TC Kline Racing Camber/Caster Plates:
-2 camber for street with -1/16 total toe (in)
-4+ camber for track with +1/16 total toe (out)
-7.5 caster

Rear:
-2.5 camber
-3/16 total toe (in)

I can rip through a slolam at full throttle lifting the inside front tire on every cone with this setup. Sometimes even a rear tire = Nationals.

BTW here is my setup for SM (a couple of changes for STU):

T.C. Kline Racing ("TCKR") Smart Design D/A Coil Overs w/500lb TCKR VVS Springs///TCKR RSM’s///TCKR Camber/Caster Plates///Ground Control Tubular Sway Bars & Monoball Links///TMS RTAB Limiters///TMS Rear Sway Reinforcements///JT-Designs Front & Rear Strut Bars///JT-Designs AL Underpanel///X-Brace///18x9 SSR Comp's///17x8.5 3pc Forged DINAN Fikse's///RRT Studs///DINAN 10mm Spacers///Rogue Engineering ("RE") 10mm Spacers///H&R 5 & 20mm Spacers///URI Ultra SS 4 Piece Pulley Set///Jim C. Shark Injector///Jim C./Eurosport Evo II CAI///De-baffled///ASC+T Delete///Fan Delete///Clutch Check Valve Delete///Rear Sound Deadening Delete///MOMO Champion w/Air Bag Delete///UUC TSE Exhaust///UUC Evo III SSK///UUC Oil Center///RE Tranny Mounts///UUC SS Braided Clutch Line///Red Line Fluids///Samco Hoses///Schroth Rallye 4 Harness///CG Lock (Passenger Seat)///Euro Floating Rotors///Hawk HP+ Pads///StopTech SS Braided Brake Lines///ZKW Euro Ellipsiods w/DDE GenV & OEM Euro Clears///BilletWerks///Lots of ACSchnitzer $hiny $tuff & DINAN Carbon Fiber

Any Q's: jasonbtoon@sbcglobal.net

Sweeeet. Thanks for the advice. 2005 was my first year playing with car setup so I need all the help I can get :) . Let me ask you a couple of questions: 1) What springs should I get to compliment the Bilsteins (I know, I know coilovers :( I just don't have the funds), and 2) What do you recommend for rear camber adjustment (must be SP legal; be nice if STU legal also)?

Thanks

Sweeeet. Thanks for the advice. 2005 was my first year playing with car setup so I need all the help I can get :) . Let me ask you a couple of questions: 1) What springs should I get to compliment the Bilsteins (I know, I know coilovers :( I just don't have the funds), and 2) What do you recommend for rear camber adjustment (must be SP legal; be nice if STU legal also)?

Thanks

1) Eibach Sport, cuz H&R sux.
2) No restrictions on rear camber for our cars in the SCCA Street Touring classes, so long as you use the OEM LCA's (that rule pisses me off b/c our LCA's are two flat pieces of metal-shit and bend/flex under load. I want to replace mine with TMS or the new RE ones but can't). As for specs, I have -4 in the front so I run -2.5 in the rear b/c -3 is way too much for the street. The key is to stay within 1 degee or so of the front camber if you can. Understand that you are giving up straight line acceleration by adding neg camber in the rear. This is another reason not to go -3. Long & Short: most E36 AX cars have b/t -1.5 & -2.5 in the rear. This is easily obtained on a lowered car with the OEM LCA's.

:redspot

1) Eibach Sport, cuz H&R sux.

?? H&R Sport springs may be poor. H&R's series of linear race springs work great!

?? H&R Sport springs may be poor. H&R's series of linear race springs work great!

Everybody is entitled to thier opinion. I have mine.

Everybody is entitled to thier opinion. I have mine.

This is for Toon//Man AND anyone else who would like to comment:

Can you explain front and rear toe and how it affects driveability?

I want something i can take to the track/autox/street and not have to change it. im going to need a good compromise, and im thinking i dont want toe out cuz that will wear out the insides of my tires (with negative camber).

sxevegan, if you are on a tighter budget I would recommend a set of 235/40 Hankook RS2's mounted on the stock wheels. Assuming you dont want a staggered setup, this is the widest you should go without spending $800 on new wheels. I managed to win the Detroit region with this setup. After tires, I would look at a good set of coilovers w/ camber plates and of course a good competition alignment (the one toonman posted looks good).

Everybody is entitled to thier opinion. I have mine.

Wow, good one. Real slick. Is there a reason or set of experiences that created your opinion, or is it derived from the same mentality as the above statement.

Wow, good one. Real slick. Is there a reason or set of experiences that created your opinion, or is it derived from the same mentality as the above statement.

Don't flame on me b/c I know what the hell I am talking about. Experience. I have raced on H&R Race springs and have driven them on the streets. Rate is too low and soo is the damn car. Ask anyone who more than casually races an E36. Coil bind = infinite spring rate. Buy a set and dyno them. You'll see what I mean. I research EVERY part I buy & only buy the best I can/can't afford.

Now with that said, I am not going to argue opinion with you. It just so happens that I share the same opinion as every racer I have ever spoken with about those springs. Enough said.

This is for Toon//Man AND anyone else who would like to comment:

Can you explain front and rear toe and how it affects driveability?

I want something i can take to the track/autox/street and not have to change it. im going to need a good compromise, and im thinking i dont want toe out cuz that will wear out the insides of my tires (with negative camber).

Without camber/caster plates you will want to get your front end at -2 camber or -2.5 for a more aggressive setup. You may want to try the TMS Shim kit to get it there depending upon your car and ride height. Set it at 0 toe. Rear at -1.5 camber and -3/16 total (3/32 each) toe in. This is a VERY good street/AX compromise alignment.

This thread is REALLY getting good. Let's keep the flames away.

1) Eibach Sport, cuz H&R sux.
2) No restrictions on rear camber for our cars in the SCCA Street Touring classes, so long as you use the OEM LCA's (that rule pisses me off b/c our LCA's are two flat pieces of metal-shit and bend/flex under load. I want to replace mine with TMS or the new RE ones but can't). As for specs, I have -4 in the front so I run -2.5 in the rear b/c -3 is way too much for the street. The key is to stay within 1 degee or so of the front camber if you can. Understand that you are giving up straight line acceleration by adding neg camber in the rear. This is another reason not to go -3. Long & Short: most E36 AX cars have b/t -1.5 & -2.5 in the rear. This is easily obtained on a lowered car with the OEM LCA's.
two more for ya:
- How much of a drop do the Eibach Sports give? (I will research them on my own later, I'm just curious to see a quick answer here.)
- Please forgive my ignorance, but what is LCA? (lower control arm?) As for rear adjustment, what do you think about these (http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=192426)? I've got the KMAC plates for the front and I HATE THEM!


edit: Hey, I can post links now! [voice of Cartman] kick ass!

This thread is REALLY getting good. Let's keep the flames away.


two more for ya:
- How much of a drop do the Eibach Sports give? (I will research them on my own later, I'm just curious to see a quick answer here.)
- Please forgive my ignorance, but what is LCA? (lower control arm?) As for rear adjustment, what do you think about these (http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=192426)? I've got the KMAC plates for the front and I HATE THEM!


edit: Hey, I can post links now! [voice of Cartman] kick ass!


Honestly I don't know how much drop they give off hand but I believe the website has some specs (IIRC, somewhere in the 1-2" range). Try a search on the bf.c

Yep, LCA = lower control arms.

As for the KMAC rear camber adjusters. Those are just cam bolts in the same picture with the front plates you have and hate. You are not alone.

In all honesty, if your car is lowered you will have more than enough adjustment with the stock LCA's and you CAN NOT change them out for better ones like AA, TMS, RE, BMP, etc. in STS, STX or STU class. Save your $$ and put it somewhere else on the car.

Can you explain front and rear toe and how it affects driveability?

I want something i can take to the track/autox/street and not have to change it. im going to need a good compromise, and im thinking i dont want toe out cuz that will wear out the insides of my tires (with negative camber).

Don't know anything about rear toe (yet), but I can tell that a small amount of front toe OUT will improve the steering response, especially in slower turns. Basically it makes the car turn quicker. The downside is wear. Toe out will wear out the insides, much more quickly than neg. camber will. Also, it will make the car "twitchy" at higher speeds. Basically it's a compromise (what isn't) - you're giving up straight line stability for cornering speed.

Don't know anything about rear toe (yet), but I can tell that a small amount of front toe OUT will improve the steering response, especially in slower turns. Basically it makes the car turn quicker. The downside is wear. Toe out will wear out the insides, much more quickly than neg. camber will. Also, it will make the car "twitchy" at higher speeds. Basically it's a compromise (what isn't) - you're giving up straight line stability for cornering speed.

There is a lot of controversy about the rear toe. 0 or out will make your car rotate like a monster but will absolutly KILL your straight line stability. Some people run a 1/2" toe in for high speed stability but can't rotate the car. My spec is a compromise b/t the two extremes for a little of the best of both worlds. I didn't make up this spec nor do I claim to have. I got it directly from TC Kline and Bob Tunnell. Few can deny that they know what they are talking about.....:cool

As for the KMAC rear camber adjusters. Those are just cam bolts in the same picture with the front plates you have and hate. You are not alone.

In all honesty, if your car is lowered you will have more than enough adjustment with the stock LCA's and you CAN NOT change them out for better ones like AA, TMS, RE, BMP, etc. in STS, STX or STU class. Save your $$ and put it somewhere else on the car.
Cool, I was hoping that would be the case once I lowered it. Only problem is, the stock units are frozen and may need to be replaced. Oh well, even if they do, it's still cheaper than the KMACs.

Also, I'd like to correct something that was said earlier. (I'm not sure who said it and I'm too lazy to go back and look now :) )

- Castor is always POSITIVE
- Toe out is NEGATIVE toe
- Toe in is POSITIVE toe

Another question (anyone can chime in):

- How does Toe measured in inches compare to Toe measured in degrees?

I'm familiar with degrees (since I learned on a machine that uses degrees) and I am having difficulty thinking in terms of inches.

Another question (anyone can chime in):

- How does Toe measured in inches compare to Toe measured in degrees?

I'm familiar with degrees (since I learned on a machine that uses degrees) and I am having difficulty thinking in terms of inches.

Simple mathematical conversion. Your alignment person should have a chart. My guy uses a Hunter that does it for him.

I know it's simple math! I just don't know what the conversion factor is.

I know it's simple math! I just don't know what the conversion factor is.

HE HE, neither do I w/o looking it up. I am sorry. My alignment guy in Tulsa had a chart. My alignment guy here in Dallas (Autoscope) has the machine readout in inches such as 0.09 per side (3/32) which equals 3/16 total toe.

I would listen to John V. and Mhyrr. These two guys, plus Doby, are in my area, and they definetly know there stuff.

Swap the hats for more camber up front...

I wound up with a little over -3 in the front each side

Then buy a set of SmartStrings and align the car yourself.....

I would listen to John V. and Mhyrr. These two guys, plus Doby, are in my area, and they definetly know there stuff.

Swap the hats for more camber up front...

I wound up with a little over -3 in the front each side

Tell Doby Jr & Sr, Toon said hey & sorry I won't be on grid next to Jr for a 3rd year in a row at Nationals b/c I jumped to STU.

Sweet a$$ coupe by the way.

Sweet a$$ coupe by the way.

THANKS!!

I will be sure to tell ....EXLAX18.....oh I mean VJlax18......:lol

THANKS!!

I will be sure to tell ....EXLAX18.....oh I mean VJlax18......:lol

HAHAHAHAHA. Yeah, what the heck does that mean anyway?

Originally I was not flaming at all... I asked a question and got an asinine response instead of an actual reason, which you've now presented. Again, the holier-than-thou nonsense attitude is ridiculous and unnecessary. And I'm very suspect you _really_ know what you're talking about, just from how you present it.

I still feel as if we're talking about different things.. How could rate and ride height be too low when you have, like all good spring manufacturers, your choice of spring rate and length. I think you're talking about the "race" springs H&R markets for street applications, whereas I'm talking about H&R Motorsport race springs, and I know lots of people use them, among them many professional teams and many top autocrossers - Bob T, Lee, Neary, Strano, etc, etc..

Sorry to bring this up again, but I just want to make sure we get the difference between these two clear.

Don't flame on me b/c I know what the hell I am talking about. Experience. I have raced on H&R Race springs and have driven them on the streets. Rate is too low and soo is the damn car. Ask anyone who more than casually races an E36. Coil bind = infinite spring rate. Buy a set and dyno them. You'll see what I mean. I research EVERY part I buy & only buy the best I can/can't afford.

Now with that said, I am not going to argue opinion with you. It just so happens that I share the same opinion as every racer I have ever spoken with about those springs. Enough said.

I've got the KMAC plates for the front and I HATE THEM!

Not sure if you're looking for new ones or not, but the Motorforce products are extremely good and pretty cheap, and the TCK plates are great as well. I think someone was also looking for something that can still be run on the street, which is what's so nice about the TCKs, they're super easy to adjust. When we got an alignment, we set the plates to about 2.4 degrees negative with zero toe, and marked the plate. Then we pushed them all the way in - this turned out to be about 3.7 and a smidge of toe out. And it takes about 5 minutes to switch between the two.

Also, like was previously mentioned, I can't think of a situation where the rear camber available is not enough.

I'm not sure I agree with this either. I can't think of an autocross situation where any kind of straight line stability is a factor, and I've never heard that referenced in any way in regards to alignment.

I think this will depend a lot on specific setup - camber, springs, bars, diff; but toe in is great for power application on corner exit. We ended up around 3/8" toe in. I know Lee P, for instance, runs even more..

There is a lot of controversy about the rear toe. 0 or out will make your car rotate like a monster but will absolutly KILL your straight line stability. Some people run a 1/2" toe in for high speed stability but can't rotate the car. My spec is a compromise b/t the two extremes for a little of the best of both worlds. I didn't make up this spec nor do I claim to have. I got it directly from TC Kline and Bob Tunnell. Few can deny that they know what they are talking about.....:cool

I'm not sure I agree with this either. I can't think of an autocross situation where any kind of straight line stability is a factor, and I've never heard that referenced in any way in regards to alignment.

I think this will depend a lot on specific setup - camber, springs, bars, diff; but toe in is great for power application on corner exit. We ended up around 3/8" toe in. I know Lee P, for instance, runs even more..

Greg, you and Toon are talking about two different springs. He's talking about the off-the-shelf "Race" Springs for non-coilover applications. You're talking about the standard 2.5" H+R springs.

I'll go ahead and disagree wholeheartedly with the thought that zero rear toe is going to kill straightline stability. I autocrossed my E36 extensively with zero rear toe in stock class and drove the car on the street in that configuration. It worked great. No issues with stability whatsoever.

It seems as though people get into a rut when it comes to camber and toe settings. There are no hard rules. A good starting point is around 3 degrees up front and 1.5 to 2 in the back. Then tune your camber with the pyrometer. Toe, IMO, is more of a feel thing. Some people like zero rear toe, some like some toe-in. I personally would start with zero all around with the smallest rear bar you can find and work from there.

John

Originally I was not flaming at all... I asked a question and got an asinine response instead of an actual reason, which you've now presented. Again, the holier-than-thou nonsense attitude is ridiculous and unnecessary. And I'm very suspect you _really_ know what you're talking about, just from how you present it.

I still feel as if we're talking about different things.. How could rate and ride height be too low when you have, like all good spring manufacturers, your choice of spring rate and length. I think you're talking about the "race" springs H&R markets for street applications, whereas I'm talking about H&R Motorsport race springs, and I know lots of people use them, among them many professional teams and many top autocrossers - Bob T, Lee, Neary, Strano, etc, etc..

Sorry to bring this up again, but I just want to make sure we get the difference between these two clear.

No problem bro. I respect a good difference in opinion. I am a lawyer and litigate them every day. That is why I stood up. :buttrock

Sorry about the misunderstanding. I didn't mean to sound abrupt. The thread poster wanted NON coilover springs. The H&R coilover springs are pretty good (not the best IMO) but their Sport & Race applications (non coilover) are WAY less than optimal IMO. I believe, for the money, that the Eibach is a far superior product. Now with said, I don't use those Eibach springs b/c I have a coilover setup and am VERY happy with it. I use the TCKR VVS springs and have no intentions of changing in the near future, even if I go to Moton or JRZ.

Peace?

Not sure if you're looking for new ones or not, but the Motorforce products are extremely good and pretty cheap, and the TCK plates are great as well. I think someone was also looking for something that can still be run on the street, which is what's so nice about the TCKs, they're super easy to adjust. When we got an alignment, we set the plates to about 2.4 degrees negative with zero toe, and marked the plate. Then we pushed them all the way in - this turned out to be about 3.7 and a smidge of toe out. And it takes about 5 minutes to switch between the two.

Also, like was previously mentioned, I can't think of a situation where the rear camber available is not enough.

I agree with you. The Motorforce plates are nice. My buddy, Brian Hanchey, runs them and is very satisfied. I have the TC Kline plates and so do about 5 of my buddies.

You are also correct on the rear camber. No reason to change. My "off thread" email replies have hammered the point that you can't legally replace the rear LCA's in STS, STX & STU with superior products such as TMS, RE, AA, BMP, UUC, etc.

John-

Let me clear this up...I agree with 0 toe in the FRONT. That was not my comment. I said 0 toe in the REAR is a HUGE stability mistake....

-Jason

Let me clear this up... I said 0 toe in the REAR is a HUGE stability mistake....


I know - I read you right. I just don't agree.

Man, I wish I had known about those Motorforce plates about 2 years ago:mad Those things look REALLY nice!

One last question Toon (at least for this thread :) )
I couldn't find a product called "Eibach Sport" springs. All I found was the Pro Kit (http://eibach.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.exe/001198.11.528943754300004976) and the Sportline (http://eibach.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.exe/001198.7.739979857700004976). Are either of these the springs you suggested? If not, can you point me in the right direction?

Thanks,

Man, I wish I had known about those Motorforce plates about 2 years ago:mad Those things look REALLY nice!

One last question Toon (at least for this thread :) )
I couldn't find a product called "Eibach Sport" springs. All I found was the Pro Kit (http://eibach.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.exe/001198.11.528943754300004976) and the Sportline (http://eibach.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.exe/001198.7.739979857700004976). Are either of these the springs you suggested? If not, can you point me in the right direction?

Thanks,
I don't think the Motorforce plates were available 2 years ago, so don't feel too bad. ;)
I believe he's talking about the Eibach ProKit springs. I'm currently running those with Bilsteins in BSP and i'm pretty happy with them. I'll be moving to STU soon (with 255 falkens on my Kosei's) as i also don't want to worry about swapping wheels/tires TWICE in the same day under the Texas sun. :stickoutt I'll probably still only the use the Falkens and Kosei's for the events, but i'll just swap them out in my garage at home at my own convienence.

I believe Toon is refering to the Prokit springs.

The Pro-Kits are all that is available for an M3. They worked okay on my M3, but they were still way too soft for any serious competition.

JV

For those of us that have dual purpose cars springs like the Prokit or H&R Sport (not Race) are a workable compromise. A good set of adjustable swaybars will show excellent results as one benefit of them is to increase the "effective spring rate". There seem to be two schools of thought on srings/swaybars, 1) "California" - defined by extremely high spring rates, adjustable front bar, and sometimes no rear bar at all; then there is 2) "Colorado" - softer spring rates used in conjunction with large adjustable swaybars both front and rear. Which is best? Other, more experienced, auto-x'ers will have the debate that. All I know is that I'm too damn old and fat to drive drive a car with massively stiff springs on the street.

I definitely agree with John V that the ProKit springs are too soft to be competitive on a serious (National) level, but they're a great compromise for someone that doesn't have the funds or desire to go with coilovers. I've given up on attempting to be Nationally competitive (in regards to car prep), mainly because i just want to get in the car and drive it on the course for fun instead of frantically worrying about what other mod or suspension combination will give me more of an edge... hence my going to STU (less work). That's just MY point of view though (and maybe cause i'm getting older). However, i know that for a lot of people, setting your sights on being Nationally competitive IS what's fun about it all. That used to be my goal. :stickoutt

Hey mikeo, i've been meaning to come over to your region to participate in one or two of your events each year, but i never make it over there. :( We've had several people come over to our Dalhart events from your region. :)

...but they're a great compromise for someone that doesn't have the funds or desire to go with coilovers. I've given up on attempting to be Nationally competitive (in regards to car prep)...
This describes me exactly! Although, I would like to go to Nationals, I've long since given up on any chance of a national title, simply because of the money involved. Besides, by the time I have the skill, experience, and funds needed to chase a National Solo 2 title, I will have moved on to road racing.


For those of us that have dual purpose cars springs like the Prokit or H&R Sport (not Race) are a workable compromise. A good set of adjustable swaybars will show excellent results as one benefit of them is to increase the "effective spring rate". There seem to be two schools of thought on srings/swaybars, 1) "California" - defined by extremely high spring rates, adjustable front bar, and sometimes no rear bar at all; then there is 2) "Colorado" - softer spring rates used in conjunction with large adjustable swaybars both front and rear. Which is best? Other, more experienced, auto-x'ers will have the debate that. All I know is that I'm too damn old and fat to drive drive a car with massively stiff springs on the street.
I can tell you from experience that the "soft spring, big swaybar" method is not a good one. I have been running TMS swaybars with stock springs for the last two seasons, and I can't keep swaybar links in the car. I'm on my 3rd set in two years. It simply put too much stress on them. Stiff swaybars are NOT a good replacement for stiff springs.

Most people I know run as little swaybar as they can get away with. In fact, a lot of the STi guys are running un-godly stiff springs with no swaybars at all!

The bottom line for me is that I can't get anywhere near the limits of SP rules (even if money was not an issue) because I drive the car every day.

(I can't wait until I can afford a 2nd BMW!)

Please note that "soft springs" is relative. Even in the "Colorado" setup, spring rates are generally in the 450-650 range (others run 700-1100# ranges). These are considered soft. Basically anything less than 400-450 is not going to be very competitive on a high level, and is a big compromise.

Also note that, properly setup, 400-500# springs are not _that_ stiff. With proper dampening, our car on 450/500 was perfectly acceptable on the street.

nice ride

http://i.onlineshowoff.com/media/photos/cars/3513/o_39116.jpg

Anybody know the spring rate of the Eibach Pro-Kit we've been talking about? What about the stock M3 springs?

Anybody know the spring rate of the Eibach Pro-Kit we've been talking about? What about the stock M3 springs?

I saved the following info from a post a few years ago, so i don't know how accurate it is but here you go...

Spring -> Front Rate -> Rear Rate

Stock E36 M3 ->105 ->335

LTW E36 M3 ->138 ->402

Eibach Pro Kit M3 ->148 ->428

Sachs M3 coilovers ->215 ->395

H&R 29910 (Sport) ->200 -> 380

H&R 29910 DTM(Race) -> 345 ->515

H&R Coilover ->340 -> 380

Dinan ->150 ->400

... hence my going to STU (less work). That's just MY point of view though (and maybe cause i'm getting older). However, i know that for a lot of people, setting your sights on being Nationally competitive IS what's fun about it all. That used to be my goal. :stickoutt


looks like STU is going to get tougher this year. BTW, car looks good in the latest issue of SportsCar :D

...Hey mikeo, i've been meaning to come over to your region to participate in one or two of your events each year, but i never make it over there. :( We've had several people come over to our Dalhart events from your region. :)
Hey Chuck, come on over sometime! We have a pretty low key region--as indicated by me winning BSP this season--but would really like some fresh competition. Watch for a calendar around February on www.rgrscca.org. Try and pick an event at Sandia Motorsport Park, it's our best venue.

BTW, car looks good in the latest issue of SportsCar :D
Thank you! I must say, it's pretty cool to see your own car in print! :D

Hey Chuck, come on over sometime! We have a pretty low key region--as indicated by me winning BSP this season--but would really like some fresh competition. Watch for a calendar around February on www.rgrscca.org. Try and pick an event at Sandia Motorsport Park, it's our best venue.
Cool... i'll try to make it over there for sure! :)

I believe Toon is refering to the Prokit springs.

Yes, sorry about the mixup.

For those of us that have dual purpose cars springs like the Prokit or H&R Sport (not Race) are a workable compromise. A good set of adjustable swaybars will show excellent results as one benefit of them is to increase the "effective spring rate". There seem to be two schools of thought on srings/swaybars, 1) "California" - defined by extremely high spring rates, adjustable front bar, and sometimes no rear bar at all; then there is 2) "Colorado" - softer spring rates used in conjunction with large adjustable swaybars both front and rear. Which is best? Other, more experienced, auto-x'ers will have the debate that. All I know is that I'm too damn old and fat to drive drive a car with massively stiff springs on the street.

I agree with everything you said except I don't know old and/or fat you are. :D I currently follow the Colorado rule = 500# springs front & rear with Ground Control Tubular sways.

I can tell you from experience that the "soft spring, big swaybar" method is not a good one. I have been running TMS swaybars with stock springs for the last two seasons, and I can't keep swaybar links in the car. I'm on my 3rd set in two years. It simply put too much stress on them. Stiff swaybars are NOT a good replacement for stiff springs.

Most people I know run as little swaybar as they can get away with. In fact, a lot of the STi guys are running un-godly stiff springs with no swaybars at all!

I had the same experience with the stock links but had 500# springs and ran the bars full soft front & rear. I ended up getting the TMS adjustable link and it helped. The problem was much worse when I had the car setup for DE events & had the front on full stiff and the rear in the middle. I have several friends who run 600# front and 1000# rear with NO rear sway. They say it plants and pulls like a monster out of the turns. Also please realize that an STI doesn't handle anything like an M3 so thier setup is probably not relevant when determining how to set our cars up.

Please note that "soft springs" is relative. Even in the "Colorado" setup, spring rates are generally in the 450-650 range (others run 700-1100# ranges). These are considered soft. Basically anything less than 400-450 is not going to be very competitive on a high level, and is a big compromise.

Also note that, properly setup, 400-500# springs are not _that_ stiff. With proper dampening, our car on 450/500 was perfectly acceptable on the street.

I agree completely. IMO my car feels infinitely better on the street than the H&R Race spring setup that I drove. I am even considering going up to 600#.

looks like STU is going to get tougher this year.

I'll say....The STU competition in my region is INSANE!

Problem with analysing the national SM setups is that they are on huge R-Comps. Obviously a large variable.

I'm running 525/600 w/ GC sways and I feel its a bit stiff for the grip of the 255 MX's. I'm going to notch it down to a 450/525 setup and see what happens.

Problem with analysing the national SM setups is that they are on huge R-Comps. Obviously a large variable.

I'm running 525/600 w/ GC sways and I feel its a bit stiff for the grip of the 255 MX's. I'm going to notch it down to a 450/525 setup and see what happens.

Huge? Understatement! 335 Ecsta V710's I believe for Vic Sias.

I am glad you said that. Since I have switched back to STU, I probably will not increase my rate from 500 to 600 b/c of the grip difference b/t the V710 & Falken A's, etc. I had planned on going to 600 in SM to complement the V710's.

I'm running 525/600 w/ GC sways and I feel its a bit stiff for the grip of the 255 MX's. I'm going to notch it down to a 450/525 setup and see what happens.


thats funny, im going with 525/450 setup w/dinan sways ;)

Do you think 255 MX's will be a competitive tire vs. the Azenis? What about the Hankook tire compared to both? I was originally thinking MX because of cost, but now i think the RT-615's will have the edge even though they have to be cooled down on warm to hot days.

thats funny, im going with 525/450 setup w/dinan sways ;)

Do you think 255 MX's will be a competitive tire vs. the Azenis? What about the Hankook tire compared to both? I was originally thinking MX because of cost, but now i think the RT-615's will have the edge even though they have to be cooled down on warm to hot days.

From what I've seen/heard, the 615 seems to be a superior tire.

I've had my MX's from before the 615 was released. Plus, it sounds like the MX is better at high temps, which is a plus for me on the track.

For a nationally competitive STU car, i'd go with the 615's no question.

Do you think 255 MX's will be a competitive tire vs. the Azenis? What about the Hankook tire compared to both? I was originally thinking MX because of cost, but now i think the RT-615's will have the edge even though they have to be cooled down on warm to hot days.

I was on MXs last season and was happy with them, however I'm not happy with their performance in the wet. I've been told the stiffer sidewall of the Azenis suit our heavier cars better. Also, most of the top STU cars at Nats were on Azenis. I'm going to give them a try once my current set of MXs wear out.

thats funny, im going with 525/450 setup w/dinan sways ;)

Do you think 255 MX's will be a competitive tire vs. the Azenis? What about the Hankook tire compared to both? I was originally thinking MX because of cost, but now i think the RT-615's will have the edge even though they have to be cooled down on warm to hot days.

Scott:
The MX is a pretty good tire, but not a National Championship tire. The Falken A's have the advantage there when you are talking about "the edge". The Yoko ADVAN Neova looks really promising but is pretty expensive. I want someone to make one of these tires in a 255/35-18 so I can race my SSR's again (Had Hoosiers & Ecsta V710's on them for the last two years). For now I am racing on 17" 3 pc. Forged DINAN Fikse FM5's. I want them to be my street wheels b/c they are drastically stronger than my SSR's & Dallas streets SUCK.

Peace.

yeah, i think i'll suck it up and buy the RT-615 just to save myself the embarrassment of getting too far behind left in the dust ;)

that is unless Mike N. wants to sell me his old set of 17x9 SSR comps with the 255 MXes that he replaced with a new set of 17x9 SSR comps with 255 Azenis. :eyecrazy

yeah, i think i'll suck it up and buy the RT-615 just to save myself the embarrassment of getting too far behind left in the dust ;)

that is unless Mike N. wants to sell me his old set of 17x9 SSR comps with the 255 MXes that he replaced with a new set of 17x9 SSR comps with 255 Azenis. :eyecrazy

Nearly EVERYONE here in our region is rollin' on Falken A's.

If I can afford it (I just bought a house, eeks!) I'll also move up to the 255 Falken's. In the mean time my 235/40 Hankook's are working pretty well. At $100/tire I can't complain. Like most people have said, there is a big difference between locally competitive and nationally competitive. For local competition they are fine.

Nearly EVERYONE here in our region is rollin' on Falken A's.

Know anyone who's gettin a fresh set, and wants to get rid of there used Falken A's? I'll take anything with no cords showin' :D

Know anyone who's gettin a fresh set, and wants to get rid of there used Falken A's? I'll take anything with no cords showin' :D

Nope. Everyone here is cording them at Mineral Wells (site is extremely hard on tires).