Long story short: pops offered to pay my way to Skip Barber 2-Day High Perf. Driving School as a birthday/christmas present (turned 21 last month) and suggested I could toss in my own cash to upgrade myself to the 3-Day Racing School if I wanted...

So I'm thinking that's what I'll do. I'm looking at basically a grand plus gas up there and back ($140) and hotel ($??).

Is the 3-Day Racing School worth $1500-ish in your folks' opinions?


http://www.skipbarber.com/racing_school/three_day_racing.aspx

Many Thanks,

Ben

Depends on so many things...if you are looking to get into racing, particularly in open-wheel cars, the racing school upgrade would be a good thing to do. If you aren't looking for the quickest way to a racing license and don't have much track experience, the driving school will likely be plenty. The open wheel cars will definitely put a grin on your face...but if you have limited track time, you'll probably be overwhelmed.

I've got about 900 laps of Laguna Seca in Gran Turismo...does that count as track time? :stickoutt

All kidding aside, the High Perf. Driving School which I was considering at first seems a bit cheesy; $2600 for two days yet only very very limited track time. Two lead follow sessions and one hot lap right-seat session. The site says "2-3 hours of track time"...

As opposed to the 3 Day Racing School for a grand more, which gets you 3 actual days of track driving; Instruction in the Neon and then in the Formula Dodge, etc.

Decisions, decisions...I guess the way I'm looking at it now is that the best bang-for-the-buck with Skip Barber seems to me to be the 3-Day Racing School.

Thanks for your input Bryan, definitely something to sleep on.

Skip Barber is an excellent foundation, a bit costly, but very well presented.

Ironically, I'm putting together an driving education program for my old man, funny how things work. He's looking for a father/son activity now that he's semi-retired. I'm going to give him brief car control lessons then turn him over to the BMW Club and NASA's HPDE program. We're lucky to be in the NASAproracing.com NorCal region, it's an excellent education program these days, and based on 4 levels of promotion until race licensing ability.

SCCA is not a recommended program. After only 3 days of track time, you're issued a competition novice license, yikes.

They don't restrict you, cost is right, and all cars have data. Stretch it to 4 days if you can - the learning curve is logrithmic.

They don't restrict you, cost is right, and all cars have data. Stretch it to 4 days if you can - the learning curve is logrithmic.

Hehe you said Logrithmic :stickoutt

I have raced on and off since 1986 and I attended the SB 3 day racing course in 2000 to get back in racing after a few years off. I had no prior open wheel experience and none since but I thought it was excellent! The car control part was very valuable and you see the track a little different in a formula car. You will also get some seat time in a Neon which helps you learn how to maintain momentum with a lower HP car. I doubt that you will be disappointed in any commercial driving school regardless of your experience. It also helps to go to a school at your favorite track or a track you would like to learn...

My .02

The three day school is great! Two day, stick with BMW DEs.

I brought both of my sons to Laguna a couple of years ago, one in the two day (not a natural driver) second in the three day (Formula SAE suspension designer/autocrosser). The difference in the level of teaching/students was profound. Two day school reminded me of a pricey DE; three day school was just so much more interesting/informative, and you had practical skills training after each classroom session. It was a lot to learn/digest/put into practice, but worth the effort.

We stayed at a motel near the main route from NoCal; don't remember specifics, but a reasonable place for ~$80/night. Let me know if you'd like the name of the place.

Skip Barber three day; what a great way to spend your time! If you decide on this, please go there well rested; you'll need it, and a good pair of polarized sun glasses!

Best,

PeteinMD

What are you looking to get out of the school?

What are you looking to get out of the school?
I'd like to learn how to race. Even though I had to abandon my SpecE30 project a few months ago because I have zero time for it and the place where it was stored became unavailable, I still would like to get into racing eventually; in a few years I'd like to find an EX-PTG or EX-SPEED car and get into some time trials or perhaps even organized club racing.

I'd like to be able to arrive at the BMWCCA HPDE at Buttonwillow in February feeling like I already have a general clue of what I'm doing :).

Ben

The three day school is great! Two day, stick with BMW DEs.

I brought both of my sons to Laguna a couple of years ago, one in the two day (not a natural driver) second in the three day (Formula SAE suspension designer/autocrosser). The difference in the level of teaching/students was profound. Two day school reminded me of a pricey DE; three day school was just so much more interesting/informative, and you had practical skills training after each classroom session. It was a lot to learn/digest/put into practice, but worth the effort.

We stayed at a motel near the main route from NoCal; don't remember specifics, but a reasonable place for ~$80/night. Let me know if you'd like the name of the place.

Skip Barber three day; what a great way to spend your time! If you decide on this, please go there well rested; you'll need it, and a good pair of polarized sun glasses!

Best,

PeteinMD

Thanks for the input Pete. Please definitely forward me the name of the hotel you stayed...$80/night sounds like a deal.

Ben - I think that the BMWCCA is a very good place to start. Though I've never done one of the Skip Barber-type schools, I'd have a hard time believing that a first-timer would really get his/her money's worth out of it. My guess is that you would get much more out of one of these schools if you had the basics down before showing up (the reverse of what you are saying).

One of these days I'd like to try one of these schools, though. I know I'm still the limiting factor in my laptimes.

CCa can be pricey in the Bay Area.

Try NCracing.org, in conjuction with Trackquest I believe.

they have opened up next year's schedule with 2 different events at Laguna Seca in January. There are instructors too and it was about half the cost of CCA events in the Area.

I'd like to learn how to race. Even though I had to abandon my SpecE30 project a few months ago because I have zero time for it and the place where it was stored became unavailable, I still would like to get into racing eventually; in a few years I'd like to find an EX-PTG or EX-SPEED car and get into some time trials or perhaps even organized club racing.

I'd like to be able to arrive at the BMWCCA HPDE at Buttonwillow in February feeling like I already have a general clue of what I'm doing :).

Ben

Damn Ex-PTG... so you got bank to work with.

Are you still in School?

I'd say go for a full week racing school, get the most out of the money. You ultimately want the most seat time, classrooms can only do so much. Having Data/Video is nice too.

Bondurant has a 4day course: http://www.bondurant.com/courses/GPRR_more.html

Bertil Roos has a 5day program:
http://www.racenow.com/b03c_5day.htm

Derek Daly also has a 5day program.
http://www.derekdaly.com/raceprog.html

And there's jim russell as well.
http://www.jimrussell.com/en/courses.cfm?cId=1

Learning in a formula car is nice, but is not for everyone.

Damn Ex-PTG... so you got bank to work with.

Are you still in School?

I'd say go for a full week racing school, get the most out of the money. You ultimately want the most seat time, classrooms can only do so much. Having Data/Video is nice too.

I wouldn't say I have bank to work with, yet. I skipped college and went to work full time; landed a very well paying job which has incredible room for growth and is not corporate at all; don't have to worry about becoming the victim of downsizing. In three to four years I'll have an income several times greater than my current income and don't have plans to get married or explore the children thing for another 10 years, so my disposable income level will be pretty high.

I make twice as much as my mom and about half of what my dad makes, so no one is rich here...and because of that and my schedule (I have to juggle some booked photoshoots around just to put together the 3 days to get to Racing School) the $3600ish is about the limit of what I'm willing to spend at the moment...so the 5 day Derek Daly course for $7100, for instance, is out of my budget and time availability.

My current thought is to maybe do this 3-day, then some BMWCCA HPDE stuff over the next year or two, with maybe some further instruction at Daly or Barber sometime in '07 before I have the cash and the time to get into serious racing (which should be sometime in '08).

Ah, the drug dealing industry, its great isn't it ;)

So I assume you are a profesional photographer, or what?

Car Control School, then DE's then advanced race school sounds like a good plan.

Ah, the drug dealing industry, its great isn't it ;)

So I assume you are a profesional photographer, or what?

Car Control School, then DE's then advanced race school sounds like a good plan.

Correct; or at this point a professional photographer's assistant who shoots some stuff on his own on the side. My boss is a great guy and it's just a little two man operation; him and I. He has suggested I take over the client list when he retires in 2 or 3 years.

The main problem with me doing DE's is that since I abandoned the SpecE30 and sold the '90 325is to a buddy (yeah I really need to update my sig) I have no suitable car for taking to the track. The Coupe is too dear to me to put out on the track and get rock chips and etc., and the 325e wouldn't be fun or worth it, assuming it passed tech. So, other than this offer (which could just be a one time thing, I don't know) from a buddy to take his E36 M3 out in February, I'm kind of restricted as far as what I can do for track time...

and the 325e wouldn't be fun or worth it, assuming it passed tech.

Sure it would.

Spec E30 would be a blast for your first season racing.

Or you can just buy a Cm/Dm car, there are several for sale. Go run bmwcca and learn by seattime. Just have to make sure not to pickup any bad habits.

Sure it would.
I suppose some might say it would...but honestly, I would hate to see what kind of repairs it would need. The engine is making a cacaphony of fun noises right now...the suspension is pretty nearly blown out. She's probably got 6 months or a year left in her at the rate I sink money into her (approx. $0/month).

Sure it would.+1

when you are learning, it's often better to go with a low powered car to learn momentum driving. I think my M3 hampers my development as a driver because it's got enough power to make up for what I lost in the corners. Given that I can usually chase down other cars with the power makes me think I'm doing it right, whereas a low power car might help me learn to develop even more speed in the corners.

Refreshing the engine and suspension in the E30 is probably less than buying a decent E36 ...

Correct; or at this point a professional photographer's assistant who shoots some stuff on his own on the side. My boss is a great guy and it's just a little two man operation; him and I. He has suggested I take over the client list when he retires in 2 or 3 years.

The main problem with me doing DE's is that since I abandoned the SpecE30 and sold the '90 325is to a buddy (yeah I really need to update my sig) I have no suitable car for taking to the track. The Coupe is too dear to me to put out on the track and get rock chips and etc., and the 325e wouldn't be fun or worth it, assuming it passed tech. So, other than this offer (which could just be a one time thing, I don't know) from a buddy to take his E36 M3 out in February, I'm kind of restricted as far as what I can do for track time...

You could probably talk me into renting you my spec car for DE's when I'm racing. As long as you don't hurt it.

What if I break the windshield? :stickoutt

No seriously that's a very generous offer and I might take you up on that...but therein likes the conundrum...before I go borrowing/renting anyone's car I want to have some knowledge of what I'm doing...and I think Skippy School would establish that foundation of knowledge.

Ben

As of the other night I now have a spare windshield in the garage. :) (Thanks again, btw). Not to change subjects, but what's it going to cost you to get the shell hauled away?

Good point - take the school. :D

As of the other night I now have a spare windshield in the garage. :) (Thanks again, btw). Not to change subjects, but what's it going to cost you to get the shell hauled away?

Good point - take the school. :D

Devin & I are going to haul it down to Ecology next weekend (the 23rd or the 24th). They said they'll take it off my hands and maybe even give me $20 for it as scrap metal (I figure it weighs about a thousand pounts; their rate is $40/ton for scrap steel).

I would much rather give it to a club racer or SpecE30 guy in the midwest who needs a rust free shell (this car has lived in San Diego it's whole life) for free, but haven't had time to post up the pics of it or write up an advert. Maybe I'll do that tonight -- I would really like to see this thing used by someone who needs it, as it's 110% rust free and only needs minor bodywork to be a perfectly straight shell.

Ben

Cover the M in tape like the Lotus guys do. ;-)

Cover the M in tape like the Lotus guys do. ;-)

I've considered that; However, there are a couple of other reasons:

I'm not rich, and the thought of stuffing a $25k car which I bought at 18 and paid for agressively (will be paying it off this month, 2 years and 3 months after I borrowed the $25k to buy it from my bank) into a wall or damaging it in any other way is pretty much something I don't want to even think about.

I've never felt remotely as comfortable piloting the M Coupe as I do in any one of the E30's I've owned. The seating position (low, over the rear halfshafts) really has something to do with that, I think. I feel really comfortable in the E30's. When I test drove my buddies' E36 M3 (which I'd be taking to Buttonwillow in Feb. for the BMWCCA HPDE) before they bought it, I felt totally comfortable in that thing, too -- I got out of the car after driving it pretty hard and felt like I had been in control the whole time.

I understand there are many different opinions, but at my current skill level and financial status those are my two main ones...

I did the 3day SB school at limerock. It was a great experience. You actually get a good amount of track time. I was amazed how much I learned. The first two days you they teach you basically everything and the third day you start to try out what you learned. If you can afford it I would upgrade to the 3 day program; but, I'm sure the 2 day school will be a great experience if money or time is tight.

I originally wanted to do the 2 day program, but my cousin got a job there selling corporate programs and I got a nice discount through him. Sadly he no longer works there.

Ben

You shoot pic for the porn industry down in San D? :buttrock



Take the Skip School, you will be happy you did......

Porn is good money man, I wish I could get an easy ride into that industry. Some serious coin!

my good friend did the 3 day racing school and then a year later the 2 day advanced school. he loved it but for the same price of a spec miata lol. def a good way to get your feet wet and he learned alot in the school since they coach you for speed its a different experence then a bmwcca de

Ben

You shoot pic for the porn industry down in San D? :buttrock



Take the Skip School, you will be happy you did......

Not quite porn...don't I wish.


Just got nailed for speeding about 20 seconds after leaving the BMW dealership an hour ago when I picked up the M Coupe from service. 70 in a 65. I asked the Sherriff (he was really cool) if I could use the Skip Barber school as "traffic school"...he laughed and said it might actually work, and that he's done Skippy School and had a great time there.

i wouldnt so much about hurting your car.. its an M coupe.. it wants to be on track... its meant to be on track..

i had my brand new $28k R32 on the track the first month i owned it. your instructor doesnt want to die.. he wont let you crash.

i'd recommend going to cheaper/simplier HPDEs first. if you go w/ a good club you will have quality instructors and you will learn a ton. but i'm no pro *shrug*

Not quite porn...don't I wish.


Just got nailed for speeding about 20 seconds after leaving the BMW dealership an hour ago when I picked up the M Coupe from service. 70 in a 65. I asked the Sherriff (he was really cool) if I could use the Skip Barber school as "traffic school"...he laughed and said it might actually work, and that he's done Skippy School and had a great time there.

Huh, 70 in a 65 and "he's cool"? Unbelievable! IMHO, had he been "cool", he wouldn't have even looked at you doing a mere 5mph over the limit.
I love living in TN where our law enforcement won't look at you until you're exceeding 10-15mph over the limit! LOL
Heck, the police chief in my town has encouraged me to take him for a ride in the race car once it's built...ON THE STREET!!!:buttrock

Ken Arutunian

Just got nailed for speeding about 20 seconds after leaving the BMW dealership an hour ago when I picked up the M Coupe from service. 70 in a 65. I asked the Sherriff (he was really cool) if I could use the Skip Barber school as "traffic school"...he laughed and said it might actually work, and that he's done Skippy School and had a great time there.


Did you do a burnout on the onramp or something? I've never heard of anyone getting pulled over for 5 over down here. You must have looked guilty of something... :confused

I've considered that; However, there are a couple of other reasons:

I'm not rich, and the thought of stuffing a $25k car which I bought at 18 and paid for agressively (will be paying it off this month, 2 years and 3 months after I borrowed the $25k to buy it from my bank) into a wall or damaging it in any other way is pretty much something I don't want to even think about.

I've never felt remotely as comfortable piloting the M Coupe as I do in any one of the E30's I've owned. The seating position (low, over the rear halfshafts) really has something to do with that, I think. I feel really comfortable in the E30's. When I test drove my buddies' E36 M3 (which I'd be taking to Buttonwillow in Feb. for the BMWCCA HPDE) before they bought it, I felt totally comfortable in that thing, too -- I got out of the car after driving it pretty hard and felt like I had been in control the whole time.

I understand there are many different opinions, but at my current skill level and financial status those are my two main ones...

I don't know the tracks in Cali at all, but if there is one with a lot of wide open space around, it, go for it! Worst that is likely to happen is you go off into the turf.

If its a place with a lot of ARMCO, I can't say I blame you.

Did you do a burnout on the onramp or something? I've never heard of anyone getting pulled over for 5 over down here. You must have looked guilty of something... :confused

Maybe he didn't like my COPK1LR license plate?

Kidding, kidding.

I was pretty surprised, but what can you do. It was on El Camino Real South before it turns into Manchester. I didn't think it was a 65 zone but on the ticket it says "exceeding max speed of 65mph".

I don't know the tracks in Cali at all, but if there is one with a lot of wide open space around, it, go for it! Worst that is likely to happen is you go off into the turf.

If its a place with a lot of ARMCO, I can't say I blame you.

This track is pretty damn open. Only one wall at one corner that's hittable...the rest is wide open runout.

This track is pretty damn open. Only one wall at one corner that's hittable...the rest is wide open runout.


Although this is true, that one wall at one corner does get hit more than one might think. (Actually, it's two walls at two corners if you want to be technical, but which one gets hit depends on the direction you're running.)

As someone who has rolled a rather nice BMW I can't blame you at all for being leary about taking the coupe out. My M5 saw the track one time (same track I rolled the 540 on), and my level of paranoia is what spurned me to get the e30. I would absolutely love to take the M5 out again, but my better judgement has kept it in the garage. So far, at least. :evil2 Had fun with it at the autocross last weekend, though.

what you get out of the skippy 3 day depends on what you go into it with. If you know very little (which im assuming you do) you might be overwhelmed with info. On the other hand, if you have had track time before you very well might know all the concepts they teach and be bored to death/pissed your wasting so much time in the classroom. Either way though, you'll have a good time in some fun cars and get a fair amount of track time.

Is it worth it? I wouldn't go to the 2 day skippy school you have if you gave it to me; i think it's a waste of time. So yea, upgrade to the 3 day. But consider 3grand or so spent for 3 days in other peoples cars vs. 3 grand spend funding your own track days in your own cars-you'll be a much better driver 3 grand worth of DE's later than after 3 days at laguna seca.

If you do go to skippy though, call a few days before one and ask how many people are enrolled in it, try to get in one with as few people as possible at the last minute because that will mean more attention for u.

Ben,

You have pm.

PeteinMD

Ben,

You have pm.

PeteinMD

Thanks Pete, I just read it. I'll let you know how it turns out :).

Getting excited already.

I went to russell last spring...... there Techniques of Racing 3 days in basicly a formula ford chassis with a mits motor on treaded tires. They have an unadvertised discount for the off season That class is normaly 3500.00 but I think I only paid 2300.00 now that was the week before easter. The cool think is they have a ZERO damage liability for the first damage. The best thing was it rained most of the time so one day they basicly set up a closed loop solo course in the lot and said go spin....... that was fun till they came back and said ..... now do that without spinning!! Each session was about 20-30 min alternating with the advanced class and I thought we had a ton of track time compaired to what I have heard about skippy and a few others.

I was trying to get a SCCA comp lic out of it and it did that. AND MORE. I was able to go from this car to getting a Formula Continental and have been respectable for the age of the car.

Not that I'm an expert or anything, but do something, do it cheap, just get on the track. The first time that you go on the track you're going to spend much of the time getting a feel for speed and corners in a way that you simply can't prepare much for on the street. Find the cheapest DE you can, just a one day gig. As a photographer, it's hard as hell to find three days in a row off. Shit, I haven't had three days in a row off since I moved back in the country. Once you get in the water, then start looking at making the financial commitment for a 2-3 day gig. Don't go into skip barber dry, but don't go in with bad habits either.

And tape the hell out of the m couple and race. You'll discover a whole new appreciation for your car, and if you learn to drive it fast, then you'll be a better, safer driver when driving it slow. When I get kids, and they turn 16, they'll do an HPDE as soon as legal, if for no other reason then to really learn to drive.