... most of the way down Page 1, I wanted to make absolutely clear what I meant, even though my words were crystal-clear:

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=446471

As I said in the post Ced cited, I was discussing slightly earlier TURN IN (as my words specifically stated) rather than early APEX. The latter is...um...not advised.

hehe ... so, I should try EARLY apexing then? ;) j/k. Ced called you a REAL RACER :eek: .. and all this time I thought you were just a hack!!! :stickoutt

I've seen Ced's previous video's and comments, and while I am not that great of a driver, I think he misleads a lot of people into thinking what he is doing is correct. I mean, on m3forums, all of them were like great lines, blah blah. I guess it's an ego boost for him.

It's nice to pass by porsche's, etc ... but, in my opinion, he is missing the entire point of going to an HPDE. It's not to 'pass' cars ... it is to be a better driver and passing cars does not mean a person is a 'better' driver per se. Some peope drive like kamikaze idiots and of course, I'm going to point that idiot by to get him away from me. If his goal is to pass cars ... he should step up to HP in club racing then and test his skills against some of the better drivers like Sunir in his E36 M3. I bet Sunir would whip his a$$ pretty handily ...

I am sure Ced's quick; but, IIRC, hasn't he done only like 4 HPDE events? The more I drove on the track, and, even now -- I realize more and more how much there is to learn ... driving on the track at least for me, makes me realize how pathetic of a driver I really was ... I'm a bit better now; but, have football fields of improvement.

LOL...well, I am flattered to be called a real racer. As you say, though, I am merely a hack who plays one on Speed TV. :)

In all seriousness, Ced is really trying here. I believe (and I hope he is reading this) that he needs to spend more time learning performance driving theory. It will really help him accomplish his goals on track. It is great that he has those books--he really needs to meld some of that stuff in each lap he does...not to pass more cars, but to get to the point where he begins to feel slow...but is actually going much, much faster.

His driving has gotten much better of late. One of the ways folks measure themselves at DE's--rightly or wrongly--is by their own pace relative to other drivers in their same ability group. Heck, I do it sometimes with other instructors whom I know are fast and/or have much more car than I do!

That said, I strongly encourage Ced to take an instructor with him nearly every time he is on track, even though he is in the solo group. I do this today, since, as you so aptly put it, the more I learn, the more room I realize I have to improve. If he could start matching some high speed track driving theory to what he sees/feels on track, I think he will make a very quick, safe driver. But he really can't go much farther than he has having one but not the other.

hehe ... so, I should try EARLY apexing then? ;) j/k. Ced called you a REAL RACER :eek: .. and all this time I thought you were just a hack!!! :stickoutt

I've seen Ced's previous video's and comments, and while I am not that great of a driver, I think he misleads a lot of people into thinking what he is doing is correct. I mean, on m3forums, all of them were like great lines, blah blah. I guess it's an ego boost for him.

It's nice to pass by porsche's, etc ... but, in my opinion, he is missing the entire point of going to an HPDE. It's not to 'pass' cars ... it is to be a better driver and passing cars does not mean a person is a 'better' driver per se. Some peope drive like kamikaze idiots and of course, I'm going to point that idiot by to get him away from me. If his goal is to pass cars ... he should step up to HP in club racing then and test his skills against some of the better drivers like Sunir in his E36 M3. I bet Sunir would whip his a$$ pretty handily ...

I am sure Ced's quick; but, IIRC, hasn't he done only like 4 HPDE events? The more I drove on the track, and, even now -- I realize more and more how much there is to learn ... driving on the track at least for me, makes me realize how pathetic of a driver I really was ... I'm a bit better now; but, have football fields of improvement.

what about 12 events? I'm having fun, and my videos are a source of entertainment. Sorry if you are not entertained, but I'm still in awe about how much fun I had! What's all the hatred about? That's a retroical question. Ok. No more comments on this thread for me :D

does that count the parade lap pass?

Of course, because I think in his case, every lap is a 'parade lap'.

what about 12 events? I'm having fun, and my video are a source of entertainment. Sorry if you are entertained.

youre missing the point dude. The point is that there is always more to learn. Just because youre solo... doesnt mean you've learned everything there is to know.

It's always nice to have a second set of eyes to give you pointers....


I strongly encourage Ced to take an instructor with him nearly every time he is on track, even though he is in the solo group. I do this today, since, as you so aptly put it, the more I learn, the more room I realize I have to improve. If he could start matching some high speed track driving theory to what he sees/feels on track, I think he will make a very quick, safe driver. But he really can't go much farther than he has having one but not the other.

LOL...well, I am flattered to be called a real racer. As you say, though, I am merely a hack who plays one on Speed TV. :)

In all seriousness, Ced is really trying here. I believe (and I hope he is reading this) that he needs to spend more time learning performance driving theory. It will really help him accomplish his goals on track. It is great that he has those books--he really needs to meld some of that stuff in each lap he does...not to pass more cars, but to get to the point where he begins to feel slow...but is actually going much, much faster.

His driving has gotten much better of late. One of the ways folks measure themselves at DE's--rightly or wrongly--is by their own pace relative to other drivers in their same ability group. Heck, I do it sometimes with other instructors whom I know are fast and/or have much more car than I do!

That said, I strongly encourage Ced to take an instructor with him nearly every time he is on track, even though he is in the solo group. I do this today, since, as you so aptly put it, the more I learn, the more room I realize I have to improve. If he could start matching some high speed track driving theory to what he sees/feels on track, I think he will make a very quick, safe driver. But he really can't go much farther than he has having one but not the other.

Thanks David.

Of course, because I think in his case, every lap is a 'parade lap'.


Come on, dude. Enough.

Having fun is great, but it is driving, and it helps to know what you're doing. You could study every book and ride a million miles and still have more to learn. Even the top drivers refine what they do all the time, research, practice. That's how you get better.

And if anyone needs something to talk/argue about, then let it be this other closed thread...

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=447427

I can't wait until by new Z06 arrives in early 2006; one of them will be race prepped for sure. More videos to come! All I need now is a trailer to haul it.

No more comments on this thread for me :D

That was quick.

Still don't get it, do you?

No matter how many events you've been to, there's always people out there faster than you. Tone that attitude down and you might actually LEARN something from what some of the people here are trying to say.

Some of us commented on how you early apexed on your turns (note: not early turn-in...You clearly missed some of the apexes). You should take this as an opportunity to LEARN, not get defensive about your driving. The first thing I ask for when I post my videos, is for people to give me pointers on what I did right and what I did wrong so I can apply those ideas and principles next time I'm out on the track.

Instead you keep insisting early apexing is an "advanced skill" and keep digging yourself a bigger hole by insisting that braking in late and hard will get you more speed. Instead of being a egomanical 'tard and pressing on what you clearly don't have a good handle on, you should have picked up on this opportunity and ASKED why we think you're early apexing on certain turns and how you can alleviate the problem, instead of thinking you're god's gift to high performance driving.

Like I said...When's Mario Theissen calling to offer you a seat in the Sauber?:lol

Oops, looks like i missed the late/hard braking thing. Not good nor fast unless you are fighting for position IN A RACE.

There are fast cars out there. I like just being on the track driving. I video tape passes too. The M3 is awesome on the track.

Uh, the new Z06 has been out and about for a while now.

Ced, listen to these guys. If you continue the path that you are taking with driving, you will hurt yourself or someone else. The cars were waiving you by because you scared the hell out of them. The best thing to do in their case is to let you go and hope you don't leave debris on the track.

I asked you about why the gold f-body was leaving you, and your answer was tires. No, it was because of your line being slow.

Take a step back, take an instuctor along, and learn to drive better. And please please please do not switch over to r-comp tires.

Uh, the new Z06 has been out and about for a while now.

Ced, listen to these guys. If you continue the path that you are taking with driving, you will hurt yourself or someone else. The cars were waiving you by because you scared the hell out of them. The best thing to do in their case is to let you go and hope you don't leave debris on the track.

I asked you about why the gold f-body was leaving you, and your answer was tires. No, it was because of your line being slow.

Take a step back, take an instuctor along, and learn to drive better. And please please please do not switch over to r-comp tires.

ok.

Uh, the new Z06 has been out and about for a while now.

I think that was a typo. He meant to say wait until "my" Z06 arrives.

Frankly, if you can't drive fast with a slow car, you can't drive fast in a fast car. One of the reason why I took my 130 HP bone stock E30 318is to Sears Point instead of my 300+ hp, no OEM parts left "track" car was to experience what it was like to be forced to keep up momentum and use the brakes as little as possible, and also to see if I can manage to drive a relatively slow car FAST. Although I didn't manage to get up to as fast as I had hoped, I picked up VALUABLE pointers, both from my instructors and from my solo sessions, on how I can improve my driving.

Bet you that school in the 318is just subtracted another half a second per lap in my "other" car.

Hack, EXCELLENT point. IMO, driving a low powered car is probably the best training around. Why do you think top SM & SRF drivers are so damned good when they move to other cars? ;-)

It is good to see you (Ced) is taking it to the track. A lot of E46 owners are afraid to go to the track, or claim, it's too expensive. Videos are always nice and entertaining as well. You just have to be prepared for critiques and be open-minded to them.

The Z06 is going to be an awesome track car for you; but, some of the lines you took with your M3, the Z06 will not be as forgiving. You'll be going much faster and it will not like some of the steering inputs that the M3 can take. I also think the M3 is a great track car -- much of the reason is that it allows me to do stupid things and still not upset the car.

I know if I was behind a p-car, Z06, miata, etc ... my butt would have been in the dirt many more times :stickoutt

It is good to see you (Ced) is taking it to the track. A lot of E46 owners are afraid to go to the track, or claim, it's too expensive. Videos are always nice and entertaining as well. You just have to be prepared for critiques and be open-minded to them.

The Z06 is going to be an awesome track car for you; but, some of the lines you took with your M3, the Z06 will not be as forgiving. You'll be going much faster and it will not like some of the steering inputs that the M3 can take. I also think the M3 is a great track car -- much of the reason is that it allows me to do stupid things and still not upset the car.

I know if I was behind a p-car, Z06, miata, etc ... my butt would have been in the dirt many more times :stickoutt

Can't wait to get the Z06, with any car the lines will change. I'll post the videos for all the haters.

I know that with us being the wonderful group of men that we are that we can all get along nicely and take constructive criticism as long as it is delivered with a helful manner rather than a sarcastic tone.

Thank you.

youre missing the point dude. The point is that there is always more to learn. Just because youre solo... doesnt mean you've learned everything there is to know.

It's always nice to have a second set of eyes to give you pointers....

Totally agree. Like it has been said before... "no matter how fast you think you are, there will always be someone faster" who will make you look like the major slow poke.

Where I am, at DEs, students ALWAYS have an instructor in the beginning, and if they can demonstrate they are safe and know what they're doing, they get "signed-off" or "solo'ed".

That said, I've been fairly consistently solo'd at the DEs for a while now, and while it's fun going out without the extra person in the car and such, I find the learning curve gets really flat real quick. There's ALWAYS more to be learned with feedback from another in the car, or by seat time and self-analysis if one is capable of doing so. Many times I'll go out to practice some things on my own to see if I can work on them myself. Then go grab an instructor to self-check myself and get some more feedback on how I am progressing (or not progressing).

Just be open to any constructive feedback given instead of getting all defensive and calling everyone "haters" off the bat.

there's always something to learn. who's agruing against that? haters are just haters though. I'm waiting to learn something new from you guys and I'm not learning. I know this track better than most. If you want to school me, meet me there in February with the PBOC.

I hate whiners; "the sky is falling".

I know that with us being the wonderful group of men that we are that we can all get along nicely and take constructive criticism as long as it is delivered with a helful manner rather than a sarcastic tone.

:dunno

I don't want to speak for everyone, but I probably wouldn't have been so sarcastic if his attitude didn't s*ck balls. Look at his responses, and tell me he didn't deserve some of those remarks.

I've been hanging on this site for a little over a year now and have even sent Ced few PM's. He has always replied and most of his posts I have gotton quite a bit of info out of and his videos are a blast. Being new to the track, (4 De's), I barely classify myself as an Intermediate driver but was put into going solo at MAM a month ago and at Hallett three weeks ago. What the other guys have said about getting and having an instructor is imperative. I mean a track new to me, Porsche race prepped cars crawling up on you while you are trying to learn the track, no controlled run groups, I was terrified. There is soooo much to learn. Whoever said in the earlier post that those who get cocky and just worry about speed and passing people are a danger to themselves, their car and others is right on. Patience, dediation, and absorption from those more qualified is where it's at, truly.

I've been hanging on this site for a little over a year now and have even sent Ced few PM's. He has always replied and most of his posts I have gotton quite a bit of info out of and his videos are a blast. Being new to the track, (4 De's), I barely classify myself as an Intermediate driver but was put into going solo at MAM a month ago and at Hallett three weeks ago. What the other guys have said about getting and having an instructor is imperative. I mean a track new to me, Porsche race prepped cars crawling up on you while you are trying to learn the track, no controlled run groups, I was terrified. There is soooo much to learn. Whoever said in the earlier post that those who get cocky and just worry about speed and passing people are a danger to themselves, their car and others is right on. Patience, dediation, and absorption from those more qualified is where it's at, truly.

Agreed. The videos were for entertainment and just that; if others take from them other than that, then I can't help that. Who doesn't like passing someone, especially a Porsche :-)... It's all fun. After a good run session all of us guys get together and talk about our experience out there.

More people should post videos; there's nothing wrong with desserts and having fun, that's why I go to the track.

Racers are there to pass each other.

Solo/Instructor group is a competitive group having fun but it's not racing.

Ced,

I have reserved comment from these threads because I really don't know anything about you. However, I just got finished watching some of your videos and I have a few comments.

First of all, a little background on where I am comming from... I have been doing track events since '98. I have multiple high performance driving schools under my belt (like Derek Daly and Bondurant Advanced Road Racing Program). I am a member of several track clubs here in Phoenix and participate in as many weekends as possible with either ASRA, NASA, BMWCCA or the PCA. I am not a rookie when it comes to the track.

After watching your videos it is pretty clear that you are early apexing every corner on the track. You said that it was to compensate for street tires, but that really doesn't have anything to do with it. Street tires or slicks, and early apex is still early.

You've got modified brakes, right? Use them. You may think that you are diving deep into the corners, but you should be watching your own videos. You are early every time. I noticed that most of the corners even have apex cones at them. You need to do a better job at being patient waiting for a turn.

One final comment, in your compilation video it shows you leaving the pits during the "solo/instructor" group behind a black 997. I am assuming that the first lap out of the pits is a caution lap so that everyone can get thier tires up to speed, right? You even captioned the video to show that you had street tires and everyone else had race tires.

Let me ask you this? Why did you pass that black 997 on the warm up lap?

My suggestion is that you stay on street tires until you can watch your own videos and see that you are not early apexing. Honestly, you need to slow down to end up being fast. All that horsepower does a good job of hiding the mistakes. If you slow down on the street tires and get the line right then you can gradually increase the speed. However, you have got to take the proper line.

Best of luck.

Ced,

I have reserved comment from these threads because I really don't know anything about you. However, I just got finished watching some of your videos and I have a few comments.

First of all, a little background on where I am comming from... I have been doing track events since '98. I have multiple high performance driving schools under my belt (like Derek Daly and Bondurant Advanced Road Racing Program). I am a member of several track clubs here in Phoenix and participate in as many weekends as possible with either ASRA, NASA, BMWCCA or the PCA. I am not a rookie when it comes to the track.

After watching your videos it is pretty clear that you are early apexing every corner on the track. You said that it was to compensate for street tires, but that really doesn't have anything to do with it. Street tires or slicks, and early apex is still early.

You've got modified brakes, right? Use them. You may think that you are diving deep into the corners, but you should be watching your own videos. You are early every time. I noticed that most of the corners even have apex cones at them. You need to do a better job at being patient waiting for a turn.

One final comment, in your compilation video it shows you leaving the pits during the "solo/instructor" group behind a black 997. I am assuming that the first lap out of the pits is a caution lap so that everyone can get thier tires up to speed, right? You even captioned the video to show that you had street tires and everyone else had race tires.

Let me ask you this? Why did you pass that black 997 on the warm up lap?

My suggestion is that you stay on street tires until you can watch your own videos and see that you are not early apexing. Honestly, you need to slow down to end up being fast. All that horsepower does a good job of hiding the mistakes. If you slow down on the street tires and get the line right then you can gradually increase the speed. However, you have got to take the proper line.

Best of luck.

The rule is that you can pass whenever because their is no need to have trains holding people up that want to go faster on a tight time schedule.
Thanks for your comments; but I like my lines; as I was taught. It works well with my setup. Come on out to the track with me; and we'll see whose line is faster. If you think I'm slow, then you would say the other 40+ folks on the track with me, at the same time, are even slower.

The rule is that you can pass whenever because their is no need to have trains holding people up that want to go faster.

Thanks for you comments; but I like my lines. Come on out to the track with me. Like Burger King, I'm having it my way.

Lol...

a) either Ced is playing us for fools; or
b) its just pointless trying to talk sense into him. If that is the case, there is nothing more for us to do to help him.

I just wanted to post before it got locked again. This is some funny stuff I must say.

hahaha...everyone wants to help Ced out :-) It must be the Holiday Season; when everyone wants to be so nice :-)

pssst...I may hire one of the guys to chauffer me at my track sessions; but that takes all the fun out of it. I'll be like Madonna in the back of the M5 like in the BMW film - Star. LOL

I need donations for my upcoming driving schools, like Skip Barber, Panoz Racing School, etc... That's how the guys can help me out.

Is it April 1st already? :)

I hope you are being facetious and just yanking people's chains here. If so, good job :buttrock

If you are actually serious and believe what you say -- please be careful with your words. I think it gives people the wrong impression of proper etiquette at a DE. I know at least with Car Guys, MBCA, probably NCC BMWCCA, Audi, Zone 2 PCA, Schattenbaum PCA, etc ... You cannot pass on the first lap ... heck, we are told to take it easy at least for the first two laps ... They would immediately revoke solo status. That behavior is unsafe Ced. You have to realize, race or street tires, it takes a couple of laps to warm them up.

This is for your own safety as well and others. Don't be so close-minded -- the comments here are not just for the safety of yourself; but, also the safety of the OTHER 40 drivers on the track. There are a lot of times I am faster than someone out there; but, I BACK OFF ... and there are a lot of times someone is much faster than me; but, they back off as well ... Like you said, this is all for fun -- and having fun includes being responsible for your safety AND the others on the track.

I mean, do you check your brakes, tires, tire pressure, fluids, etc., everytime you come off the track? Of course. Why do you do it? Primarily, for your own safety but ALSO the safety of others.

If there is a train ... pit in ... let the train go by and come back out. If you do not like that ... then, on the straight away -- go maybe 3/4 throttle ... and let them get ahead. Then catch up to them in the talent sections.

Seriously though, if you are that fast Ced ... which you may be, why not do club-racing then? At least there, a whole bunch of lines could be used, and, you would have the thrill of going against fairly decent drivers.

The rule is that you can pass whenever because their is no need to have trains holding people up that want to go faster on a tight time schedule.
Thanks for your comments; but I like my lines; as I was taught. It works well with my setup. Come on out to the track with me; and we'll see whose line is faster. If you think I'm slow, then you would say the other 40+ folks on the track with me, at the same time, are even slower.

Glad to see that you are a mature enough driver to be able to take some constructive critacism. You claim that you are still learning and yet you won't accept the fact that somebody other than yourself could be right. Geesh, must be tough being out there knowing that your way is 100% right and everyone else is slightly off.

I am still blown away that you claim to be so talented, but are dangerous at the same time. Passing anybody, even a 90bhp Civic, on the first lap is just plan out stupid.

Of course, didn't you get banned from certain club events for passing when you shouldn't have been? I think I'll skip driving on the same track as you. I prefer to keep away from the dangerous drivers. Of course, if we were on the same track together I would probably only see you out of my rear view mirrors since you constantly apex early!

At least you got one thing right, you do need to go to some more driving schools. Get your head on straight. You need to realize that all DE drivers, whether beginners or expert, check their ego at the door when they get on the track. Seems like you need to try and remember that.

Best of luck, and thank god you aren't in Arizona!

Is it April 1st already? :)

I hope you are being facetious and just yanking people's chains here. If so, good job :buttrock


If you are not aware of Ced's history...

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=331605&highlight=Ced+peachtree

At this point I think we're all being fooled. NOBODY can be this dense.

Lol...

a) either Ced is playing us for fools; or
b) its just pointless trying to talk sense into him. If that is the case, there is nothing more for us to do to help him.

Here's a suggestion...

Ced, please post here either in the Motorsports forum or the M3 forum to let us know when you'll be at the track again.

And avoid all Pacific Region tracks. Here's a list:

Laguna Seca
Sears Point
Thunderhill
Portland International
Phoenix International
Firebird
Las Vegas Motor Speedway
California Speedway
Willowsprings
Buttonwillow Raceway.

Thanks.

Glad to see that you are a mature enough driver to be able to take some constructive critacism. You claim that you are still learning and yet you won't accept the fact that somebody other than yourself could be right. Geesh, must be tough being out there knowing that your way is 100% right and everyone else is slightly off.

I am still blown away that you claim to be so talented, but are dangerous at the same time. Passing anybody, even a 90bhp Civic, on the first lap is just plan out stupid.

Of course, didn't you get banned from certain club events for passing when you shouldn't have been? I think I'll skip driving on the same track as you. I prefer to keep away from the dangerous drivers. Of course, if we were on the same track together I would probably only see you out of my rear view mirrors since you constantly apex early!

At least you got one thing right, you do need to go to some more driving schools. Get your head on straight. You need to realize that all DE drivers, whether beginners or expert, check their ego at the door when they get on the track. Seems like you need to try and remember that.

Best of luck, and thank god you aren't in Arizona!

haha

Is it April 1st already? :)

I hope you are being facetious and just yanking people's chains here. If so, good job :buttrock

If you are actually serious and believe what you say -- please be careful with your words. I think it gives people the wrong impression of proper etiquette at a DE. I know at least with Car Guys, MBCA, probably NCC BMWCCA, Audi, Zone 2 PCA, Schattenbaum PCA, etc ... You cannot pass on the first lap ... heck, we are told to take it easy at least for the first two laps ... They would immediately revoke solo status. That behavior is unsafe Ced. You have to realize, race or street tires, it takes a couple of laps to warm them up.

This is for your own safety as well and others. Don't be so close-minded -- the comments here are not just for the safety of yourself; but, also the safety of the OTHER 40 drivers on the track. There are a lot of times I am faster than someone out there; but, I BACK OFF ... and there are a lot of times someone is much faster than me; but, they back off as well ... Like you said, this is all for fun -- and having fun includes being responsible for your safety AND the others on the track.

I mean, do you check your brakes, tires, tire pressure, fluids, etc., everytime you come off the track? Of course. Why do you do it? Primarily, for your own safety but ALSO the safety of others.

If there is a train ... pit in ... let the train go by and come back out. If you do not like that ... then, on the straight away -- go maybe 3/4 throttle ... and let them get ahead. Then catch up to them in the talent sections.

Seriously though, if you are that fast Ced ... which you may be, why not do club-racing then? At least there, a whole bunch of lines could be used, and, you would have the thrill of going against fairly decent drivers.

ok

Ugh. I now regret starting this thread.

I was trying to take a positive spin on a guy whose driving has come a long way, yet (like all of us) has a long way to go. I was trying to accentuate the positives rather than the negatives for a guy who hopefully has learned from his past mistakes, and who obviously has a great time on the track, while still clarifying (in a positive manner) a glaring misconception that he seemed to have. It is so easy to point out all the mistakes someone makes while watching their track tapes. It is not so easy to point out the positives.

I regret that even that would turn into a mutual flame-fest.