2002 M Coupe. Not a new mustang GT, a late 90's Mustang GT.

I am on the freeway with my girlfriend, late at night. There is hardly anyone on the road, so I open the Coupe up to about 110mph. I RARELY go very fast, but I haven't had many chances to open the car up. I pass a white Mustang GT, and eventualy slow down. Out of nowhere, the GT passes me, and then slows down next to me, and then takes off again. He switches lanes, so now he is on my right side. I'm not into racing, so I tried to ignore him, but even my girlfriend was saying, "Uhm, I think he wants to race you babe..."

Fair enough, I guess. I am going about 80, so I downshift from 5th into 3rd gear. My S54 starts screaming, and immediatly the GT starts to disappear in my rearview mirror. I gave him a little time to at least gain some ground, but it wasn't gonna happen... not only that, but my exit was coming up.

I exit, and he exits behind me. Theres a light at the end of the offramp, and he pulls up to my righthand side. I am an easygoing, nice guy, and since my window was down, I look over and say, "hows it goin dude?" The guy just sits there and stares me down. Ok....Whatever, prick.

I make a left, and he makes a left, too. We get to the next light; he's still staring at me. Sorry, a**hole, I have too much too lose to go fighting you over a stupid "race." He finnaly makes a left at the intersection, floors it, and fishtails, almost out of control. Had there been any oncoming traffic, he woulda been TOAST. What a jackass..

You're mean for picking on him:stickoutt

No contest, no surprise. The new one wouldn't have done damage to you either.

great to hear that someone showed up a Mustang I always see them picking on lesser displacement cars. S54 that thing must scream!

Result that I expected going into this thread. The M Coupe is fast and light, the Stang GT had no chance. Its unfortunate he had to be suck a d**k. I see that rudeness and over confidence in a lot of mustang drivers. (noone jump on my back I didn't say all). Nice kill man, +1 BMW. I love to see 'stangs go down.

Nice Kill :buttrock Was the guy in the mustang a younger guy? For some reason alot of the younger guys out there racing seem to take things way to personel when they get walked on. I just smile at them and tell them good run :D That either makes them smile or just pisses them off more :stickoutt . People like that give racing a bad name :rolleyes

I am an easygoing, nice guy, and since my window was down, I look over and say, "hows it goin dude?" The guy just sits there and stares me down. Ok....Whatever, prick.

That made me giggle.

-Eff

If I were him I would have considered it an honor to be beaten by such a nice car :D

Shoes ftw! Mustangs are hype.

Yeah - what is up with the Mustang drivers? I mean, how can anyone even buy a V6 Mustang and think they have a fast car? Don't the last generation V6s only have something like 170hp? They weigh too much and handle like crap. Why even bother racing someone? If I had a dime for the number of V6s I've toasted (even in my 1999 Saab 9-3 SE w/210hp), I'd have my Coupe paid off... I have had to smoke a number of GTs, even a new one, and I'm only running a S52. I had a guy in a mildly tuned Cobra actually give me a run for my money. He just had more top end and pulled away once we got to about 80, but I appreciated, and expected, it. Still, I was surprised he didn't pull away faster for as much noise as his car was making...

I don't get it. I really don't care if someones car walks all over mine. If someone raced me and won, I am sure they would be stoked, and I am sure it would make their day. More power to em, ya know what I mean? I would be just as stoked for them, and I would be more than happy to compliment their car and ask them what they had going on under the hood.

In all reality, I wonder what this guy was expecting... I mean, was he suprised with the outcome or something?

Maybe he got fired, dumped, and failed most of his classes ealier that day:help

Maybe he got fired, dumped, and failed most of his classes ealier that day

Hahahaha, you never know. Being dumped does suck.

Maybe he got fired, dumped, and failed most of his classes ealier that day:help
:lol:

He was probably pissed that he has his 'hot new muscle car' and he couldn't hang with the funny looking BMW. He's probably at home making sure that his blinkerfluid is topped off just like the dealer told him to for break-in service. :rolleyes Just like the guy I ran last year that just spent three times as much on his new Merc SL500 and couldn't hang on.

Seriously I've had my ass handed to me by two different Cobras before. Those babies aren't cake at all with a few simple mods. They still can't handle very well but they can put the power down.

The stock 6 bangers and the regular GT's are a bad Ford Joke IMO.

Good kill man. Don't drive home with those bastards following you- the last thing that you want is for them to know where you live.

Nice kill! Maybe he wasn't pissed and was just really impressed with the ///M and wanted to hook up with the driver. :dunno

People that get pissed off when someone beats them are retarded. Reminds me of that Silverado driver I passed that tried to accelerate and keep me from passing. He followed me to a gas station and started screaming at me wanting to "take it somewhere private." :rolleyes

why are we talking about V6 stangs here? He raced a GT, GT = V8
Anyway, the last gen 3.8L V6 made ~200hp, but two gens ago the similar 3.8L V6 made only ~150hp....ewww

Shoes ftw! Mustangs are hype.

Please tell me you're kidding lol.

http://media.putfile.com/SupravsCobraPump

why are we talking about V6 stangs here? He raced a GT, GT = V8
Anyway, the last gen 3.8L V6 made ~200hp, but two gens ago the similar 3.8L V6 made only ~150hp....ewww

145 if i've read correctly in many places, its like 145hp and 215tq or something.

I'm driving one of those nasty things now as my daily driver...

the bimmer is almost ready. /sigh

i think the order is

145 215 generation before the hood scoop
200 210 generation before last
210 and i'm not sure the tq numbers for the newest one.

Not much to talk about, but if you're not into racing the newer 6s are pretty nice IMO. (handles surprisingly well for an american sports car, i'm so weirded out by it.)

Good kill man. Don't drive home with those bastards following you- the last thing that you want is for them to know where you live.Nah, I would never let someone follow me home. I don't think loosing him would have been much of a problem, especialy once I got to some of the more twisty roads around my house.


Nice kill! Maybe he wasn't pissed and was just really impressed with the ///M and wanted to hook up with the driver.


You never know, but I tried to be cool, and he just stared me down

145 if i've read correctly in many places, its like 145hp and 215tq or something.

I'm driving one of those nasty things now as my daily driver...

the bimmer is almost ready. /sigh

i think the order is

145 215 generation before the hood scoop
200 210 generation before last
210 and i'm not sure the tq numbers for the newest one.

Not much to talk about, but if you're not into racing the newer 6s are pretty nice IMO. (handles surprisingly well for an american sports car, i'm so weirded out by it.)


94-95 145/215
96-98 150/215 (elec fan)
99-04 190/225
05 210/240

Have not driven the new one, though i've heard they're decent.

I did take a 99 to 14.7@95mph. Pretty decent if you ask me. That was best run of day though, the owner...granted he's an idiot couldn't do better than 15.1@93 or so.

The new GT, while it's heavy and feels it, it's light years ahead of the old car in handling.

The sn95 chassis which was the last generation, was really just an evolution of the fox, from 81 or whenever that came out. It was really dated by 2004, hell it was dated by 95 when it was redesigned.

The new chassis is stiff and responsive....esp by american standards.

Joe

The Fox chassis began development in '74 and came out in '77 under the Fairmont IIRC. The Mustang got the Fox chasis in '79.

Drop a 3.73 rear diff in the S54 Coupe and do sport mode, and the car will REALLY fly. Anyway, nice kill. I had an 89' Mustang GT for a while and while it was fun, an S54 MCoupe will slaughter it (stock for stock of course)

i hate those mustang drivers

This is what you get for living in LA.

Drop a 3.73 rear diff in the S54 Coupe and do sport mode, and the car will REALLY fly. Anyway, nice kill. I had an 89' Mustang GT for a while and while it was fun, an S54 MCoupe will slaughter it (stock for stock of course)

I'd love to get a rebuilt differential, even if it was a little more conservative than a 3.73. Before I do anything back there, I would much rather have Forbes install his dual-ear differential setup.

I am also planning on swapping out my headers & cats/exhaust for the Euro/Supersprint setup. A bit more free flowing and a whole lot cooler temps in the engine bay.

Good call on the rear diff. I think a 3.46 would be an ideal combination. I have driven an S52 car with SS headers that were jet hot coated...nice, but I didn't think it was worth the efforts for the gain. I think wrapping the headers would be just as good as swapping them.

Randy's kit is a good investment. I just did the IE bushings, and will cross my fingers for the time being.

I guess that's all the 3rd shifter blue collar I only drive and breath american V8's and nobody beats my stang guy could afford on his salary? :dunno

Please tell me you're kidding lol.

http://media.putfile.com/SupravsCobraPump

As in the GT's. Cobra's arent even Mustangs in my opinion.

Good call on the rear diff. I think a 3.46 would be an ideal combination. I have driven an S52 car with SS headers that were jet hot coated...nice, but I didn't think it was worth the efforts for the gain. I think wrapping the headers would be just as good as swapping them.

Randy's kit is a good investment. I just did the IE bushings, and will cross my fingers for the time being.

I am not so much concerned about the gains, really. I just hate how they tucked the cats up right near the motor. I have heard this really makes things unnessecarly hot. The headers/cats the the European Coupes came with are much better, in my opinion. The cats are below the car, where they should be. I could get the SS Cats/Headers, but I really like the idea of just getting BMW's Euro parts. I like the idea of modding the car, but still having OEM parts, ya know?

As in the GT's. Cobra's arent even Mustangs in my opinion.
It's completely reasonable to dislike mustangs and/or cobras as all around cars (not just drag cars) in stock form. Anybody can mod cars. Guys have brought geo's into 13's, and there's a new scion drag car. Fast, but I still hate both geos and scions.

Please tell me you're kidding lol.

http://media.putfile.com/SupravsCobraPump

Judging from the video it seems like your car is missing the driver mod. j/k

those mudstains are slow.. shouldn've wasted your precious gas.

Judging from the video it seems like your car is missing the driver mod. j/k

It was missing the short shifter mod. Now that it has it it shifts like butter. Before it was impossible to shift.

As in the GT's. Cobra's arent even Mustangs in my opinion.

Well that's your opinion but it simply isn't true. If it has the name MUSTANG written on the side it's a mustang.

Brad is my hero...and GT 'Stang's imo are a laughing stock to the V8 family of stangs. My cousin has a 2004 Mach 1, 5500 miles on it total, still a baby. While it's still better then a stock GT or Bullitt at 305hp at the crank (same engine in he SVT, just no blower), it's nowhere near the power of the Cobra SVT because it carries the same amount of weight around with it and minus 90crank hp stock. I've never rode in a normal GT so if those things only carry around 260hp or so at the crank or less, they must be turds with wheels! A SVT Cobra is no laughing matter though...

And for the record, I can have an opinion on this matter because I have religiously beat my cousin from a roll in my E30 :) However, from a dig, I'm stuck left at the line as many will know from my latest video :D

M coupe ftw!

I <3 to kill cobras. :D Especially when they dissappear in the corners.

mach1run (http://flathat.woodstream.net/ColumbusRacing/Hua/12.54%20Pip%20small.wmv)

mach1run (http://flathat.woodstream.net/ColumbusRacing/Hua/12.54%20Pip%20small.wmv)

:buttrock

What song as it that end? Marilyn Manson?

ive been through that before... you kill someone and instead of complimenting your car they are ignorant a-holes.... awesome kill man i wish i could have saw it i love m coupes

:buttrock

What song as it that end? Marilyn Manson?

Korn :buttrock

why are we talking about V6 stangs here? He raced a GT, GT = V8
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
V6, V8 - I think most folks know the difference and if not, look for the single tailpipe that gives the V6 away. I personally was speaking about the general encounters I've had with Mustangs. Sure, you put some work into a GT or a Cobra/SVT and you can have a damn fast car, but I, personally, am surprised most with the V6 drivers who have tried to race me when I was in my Saab, my M Coupe and even my motorcycle... They lose - badly - every time. The V8s can pull hard, esp. with minimal tuning, and then it can become a challenge. I'm happy to see a badass Cobra smoke me with that great V8 rumble. Conversely, I'm disappointed in the guy in his V6 who is a poor loser... I don't roll up to Porsche Turbos, race, lose and pout. I know what I'm packing and I know when it is futile. I guess not everyone has that introspection...<o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
"Quitters never win, winners never quit but those who never win and never quit are idiots."<o:p></o:p>

I'm probably gonna get bashed for this, but, doesnt 260 in a 4.6 V8 seem like dead weight to anyone? My dads old car had a 4.3 V8 with 275, and the e36 M3 has a 3.2 I6 with 250. 2 more cylinders, and a 1.4 bigger engine with only 10 horse more? Seems like ford couda gotten more natural power outa the gt engine. Or am i just making incorrect assumptions?

260hp is kinda weak for the 99-04 GT's but the 32 valve 4.6 (281c.i.) is considerably stronger and are known to run with GM's LS1 (346ci?) Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the BMW 3.2l a DOHC motor? If so then that would be 60 more hp compared to Fords DOHC.


BMW has always been able to squeeze all of the available torque from their engines. When I owned my 325i, I was amazed at how much power it put out for a 2.5 l inline 6 cyl. What I loved most about my Bimmer was the road manners and handling while being pushed.....aahh the memories.

how fast is top of 3rd gear in a stock s54 m-coupe?

Depends, the s52's and s54's had slightly different gear ratio's. 3.23 vs 3.15. Many of the S54 guy's swap out a different ratio. 3.73 and 3.46 are the most common.

Mine stock was over 100.

I'm probably gonna get bashed for this, but, doesnt 260 in a 4.6 V8 seem like dead weight to anyone? My dads old car had a 4.3 V8 with 275, and the e36 M3 has a 3.2 I6 with 250. 2 more cylinders, and a 1.4 bigger engine with only 10 horse more? Seems like ford couda gotten more natural power outa the gt engine. Or am i just making incorrect assumptions?
The mustang v8's have terrible hp/L numbers, and a great engine, IMO is a more revhappy one. Torque is awesome, and the mustang has it, but 260 bhp out of 4.6L is a bigtime underachievement. Lacks a higher redline, too (not that you need one to go fast, just my preference).

The mustang v8's have terrible hp/L numbers, and a great engine, IMO is a more revhappy one. Torque is awesome, and the mustang has it, but 260 bhp out of 4.6L is a bigtime underachievement. Lacks a higher redline, too (not that you need one to go fast, just my preference).
FYI my DOHC 4.6L has a 6800 rpm redline. The manual trans has a forged crank (6800rpms) while the automatic does not. (5800rpms)

I hate when people get pissed when you beat them in a race. Some people take this stuff way to seriously.

FYI my DOHC 4.6L has a 6800 rpm redline. The manual trans has a forged crank (6800rpms) while the automatic does not. (5800rpms)
But peak power (at least on GT's) is WAY earlier than 6800.

Brad is my hero...and GT 'Stang's imo are a laughing stock to the V8 family of stangs. My cousin has a 2004 Mach 1, 5500 miles on it total, still a baby. While it's still better then a stock GT or Bullitt at 305hp at the crank (same engine in he SVT, just no blower), it's nowhere near the power of the Cobra SVT because it carries the same amount of weight around with it and minus 90crank hp stock. I've never rode in a normal GT so if those things only carry around 260hp or so at the crank or less, they must be turds with wheels! A SVT Cobra is no laughing matter though...

And for the record, I can have an opinion on this matter because I have religiously beat my cousin from a roll in my E30 :) However, from a dig, I'm stuck left at the line as many will know from my latest video :D

FYI- The 03-04 Cobras weigh 3680 lbs and the 03-04 Mach 1 weighs 3460 lbs. The Mach 1 has an aluminum block and a live axle while the Cobra has IRS and a forged bottom end.
The gearing is also different. 3.23 for the Cobra and 3.55 for the Mach.

But peak power (at least on GT's) is WAY earlier than 6800.
Peak hp is @ 6,000
Peak tq is @ 4,200

I've never been much of a mustang fan. But they are decent cars, for what they cost you get a lot for your money. From the v6 to the gt to the cobra, the cost for performance is a pretty good ratio.

And they can handle just fine. I was pleasantly surprised with the v6 convertible automatic mustang I rented. Sure it was loose and flexible - but it's limits were much higher than I expected. I had it in Maui for a week, and drove the 30 mile road to Hana 4 or 5 times with it. Twistiest road I've ever been on. If you drive it cautiously it will take you 2-3 hours. Me in the 'stang was about 45min to an hour, with delays waiting to get around slower cars. My new wife was a little green from the ride :D With a few suspension mods and maybe basic engine mods, a well driven mustang v6 would surprise a lot of 3 series drivers at the track.

Even the fox bodies can be worked to be handlers instead of drag cars. Just look into the American Iron series. Check out Briggs Racing products - they work magic with the live rear axle, outhandling cobras with IRS all day in competition. One good thing about sticking with old-tech, is 30 years of aftermarket expertise to make the most of it!

Why bother with the hp/liter smack talk. Everybody knows the Euro's have more technology invested in their engines, and do what they can to make the most power out of the least displacement. Hell look at the new Audi RS4 engine. 8250 redline in a 4.2L v8! To quote and Audiworld article: "In fact, no other production car has a higher mean piston speed. It even matches the world champion 19,000 RPM Renault RS25 F1 in terms of reciprocating velocity." Amazing! I love it! And the new M v10 is remarkable. But I sure as hell wouldn't pay 80k for either one.

And so what? Look at the new z06. 505hp out of a 7L. The viper needs a 8L V10 to get 510hp. It may be crude but it works, and it kicks ass.

It's ironic to me that a "huge" SBC (like the LS1) takes up less space than "small" 2.8l inline six from bmw. And weighs less. Dollar for dollar, modding the ford or chevy V8 will blow most cars away. Even the old turd 5.0L from the early 90's gt's can make a lot more power with simple mods. A simple $2k topend rebuild will take it from a stock 225hp/300ft-lb to 350hp/370ft-lb. That's pretty cool for some old school tech and shows that ford cheaps out with the oem equipment. 125hp gain for 2k isn't bad, especially staying N/A.
Strap a supercharger on there from this point.

Sorry for the rambling/ranting. Car bashing elitist scum get on my nerves. No true enthusiast bashes a car that is good at what it does, just because it isn't in the same class or category as theirs.

I'd prefer an M anyday, but I'd have a lot of fun with american muscle too. I'd set it up for the track specifically to humble elitist scum that need humbling. :D

Wow I wrote a book in about 1.5 minutes. I know most of you elementry readers won't get this far :D LOL

I've never been much of a mustang fan. But they are decent cars, for what they cost you get a lot for your money. From the v6 to the gt to the cobra, the cost for performance is a pretty good ratio.

That's because mustangs aren't really that safe. Their SRS isn't what it realy could be. But im not gonna get into that. I've heard from a lot of mustang drivers that I know that their cars handle terribly. So, not saying you're a lier, I doubt you'd make up a story like that, it just makes me curious. lol.

My car handles extremely well for a stock car. It's no BMW but it still handles decent and with about $500.00 worth of struts and lower springs it would improve dramatically.

I was pleasantly surprised with the v6 convertible automatic mustang I rented.
I rented a 2004 V6 mustang convertable a year ago on a weekend trip, and it had to be about the worst car I have driven. Normally, I don't just "bash" people's cars, but that car is an embarrasment. From a traffic light, I punched it as hard as I could, and couldn't get one little squeak out of the crap tires that were on it. On the highway, I punched it, than after waiting about 2 seconds it shifted and very slowly pulled away causing me to be horribly dissapointed, but laugh histarically. I went to hang a u-turn, yanked the wheel and slammed my foot on the gas, and it wouldn't even break the crap tires loose in a turn. I am not exaggerating when I say I would put my beater Ford Escort ZX2 up against that V6 and at least give it a run for its money, if not win until about 70-80mph.

I have ridden around Mid-Ohio in a 2005 Mustang V6 and thankfully, those do seem to be a good step from where the old one was with some good flogging by the driver, but we were getting passed by pretty much everything out there.

Personally, if I were looking at getting a mustang (but I'm really not all that interested), the Mach1 is a great package, but I would be going for a Cobra then put on a Griggs or maybe Kenny Brown suspension and putting on a nice Kenne Bell supercharger upgrade and a big brake kit. It could be a fun car.

My car handles extremely well for a stock car. It's no BMW but it still handles decent and with about $500.00 worth of struts and lower springs it would improve dramatically.
Isn't the mach 1 better tuned than the v6 and gt?

That's because mustangs aren't really that safe. Their SRS isn't what it realy could be. But im not gonna get into that. I've heard from a lot of mustang drivers that I know that their cars handle terribly. So, not saying you're a lier, I doubt you'd make up a story like that, it just makes me curious. lol.
a mach1 in the hands of a good driver can indeed hadnle well..... some of my friends have a Mach1 that they run at SCCA Solo2 Nationals in Topeka and they can get around a course pretty well. The husband took about 4th and the wife took 1st in F Stock. The guy and myself are usually competitve with each other with me taking the upper hand more than half the time this year, but remember he is in stock and I am in SM2 with lots of suspension mods.

That's because mustangs aren't really that safe. Their SRS isn't what it realy could be. But im not gonna get into that. I've heard from a lot of mustang drivers that I know that their cars handle terribly. So, not saying you're a lier, I doubt you'd make up a story like that, it just makes me curious. lol.

Bah don't care that much about safety. I'm not reckless on the street, and safety is nothing a rollcage can't fix for the track :)

It's all about perspective and experience. Relative to a sport suspended BMW, the mustang will certainly NOT feel as capable around the track...BUT with the right driver and tires, will scare you when you see the times it can accomplish.
One feels tight and controlled, the other loose and hairy. But as long as it's got the grip to get around the corner, and torque to get up to speed, it will get the job done.

Tires and cojones make up the majority of the handling equation in most average situations.

Take a badass driver in a pos car and he can turn better times than a pos driver in a badass car.

My eyes were opened when I was blown away on the track by a new v6 mustang. It was completely stock down to the crappy all-season tires. Me in my audi A4 with 240hp/265ft-lb, coilover suspension, and sway bar upgrades. He outdrove me so well it was like I was in a geo and he in a mclaren. And I was passing more capable cars myself...so it's not like I am a horrible driver. Helps that the guy ragging the mustang is the owner of the track! Hah. He went on to tear some holes in some S4's that were out there. I've seen a few previous generation v6 mustangs do pretty well at the autocross also. Not great, but not bad at all.

I rented a 2004 V6 mustang convertable a year ago on a weekend trip, and it had to be about the worst car I have driven. Normally, I don't just "bash" people's cars, but that car is an embarrasment. From a traffic light, I punched it as hard as I could, and couldn't get one little squeak out of the crap tires that were on it. On the highway, I punched it, than after waiting about 2 seconds it shifted and very slowly pulled away causing me to be horribly dissapointed, but laugh histarically. I went to hang a u-turn, yanked the wheel and slammed my foot on the gas, and it wouldn't even break the crap tires loose in a turn. I am not exaggerating when I say I would put my beater Ford Escort ZX2 up against that V6 and at least give it a run for its money, if not win until about 70-80mph.

I have ridden around Mid-Ohio in a 2005 Mustang V6 and thankfully, those do seem to be a good step from where the old one was with some good flogging by the driver, but we were getting passed by pretty much everything out there.

Personally, if I were looking at getting a mustang (but I'm really not all that interested), the Mach1 is a great package, but I would be going for a Cobra then put on a Griggs or maybe Kenny Brown suspension and putting on a nice Kenne Bell supercharger upgrade and a big brake kit. It could be a fun car.


Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, the v6 mustang is nothing special. It didn't have much power at all. My experience with it was on a very tight winding road, on which my expectations were incredibly low for the mustang - and based on which, I was pleasantly surprised.

I'd get one of the v8 models.

Bah don't care that much about safety. I'm not reckless on the street, and safety is nothing a rollcage can't fix for the track :)

doesn't matter, things can happen on the street that are not your fault and cause real problems.

A friend of mine was driving home a couple weeks ago and after a deer ran out into the highway, the cars in front of him swerved all over the road. He swerved over to the left to miss all the commotion, but then someone clipped him in the rear 1/4 and sent him under a semi, then his car flipped, then got hit by another car once upside down. The car is beyond totalled, but he and his g/f both made it thourhg with very minor injuries and no broken bones even after a wreck so bad. The car's safety restraint system made all the difference in the world. They had their belts on and the cat took the impact very well and maintained a good cockpit even after going under a semi and flipping.

Safety and brakes are the first systems to upgrade on a car. It doesn't sound like the coolest but its the foundation of having a good car.

not trying to preach to anyone, but when you really look hard at priorities, safety is right there at the top.

.....Safety and brakes are the first systems to upgrade on a car. It doesn't sound like the coolest but its the foundation of having a good car.

not trying to preach to anyone, but when you really look hard at priorities, safety is right there at the top.
numerous times i've thanked god for BMW brakes. Safety really should be the first priority on everyones list, that's one of the reasons i stick with german cars. I'd rather pay 30k for a 6 cylinder that can survive a crash, than 25k for an 8 cylinder that i'll likely die in if it crashes. My friend just bought an 04 gt and im worried about him.

numerous times i've thanked god for BMW brakes. Safety really should be the first priority on everyones list, that's one of the reasons i stick with german cars. I'd rather pay 30k for a 6 cylinder that can survive a crash, than 25k for an 8 cylinder that i'll likely die in if it crashes. My friend just bought an 04 gt and im worried about him.
my first real upgrade on my car was the brakes.

to be fair, another friend flipped his mustang GT a few years ago, and he came out without serious injury as well, so its not to say that the car itself is unsafe, but not a car I want for myself.

I do agree that safety matters, I was being a little too flippant about that.

I know of a guy that got rear ended at a high rate of speed in a fox body mustang and the car saved his life. Mustangs may not be as safe as a volvo, but they are not inherently unsafe either.

IMO, the most important safety factor on the road is situational awareness. Definitely can't avoid situations like you describe though, and I'm glad your friends came away from that ok. Scary stuff.

Also consider Phatna-Z's accident in his z-28. Not typically a car you would think of safety in, but the fact is, it saved his life in a very serious accident.

I watched a guy in passat flip in a ditch in front of me, and was impressed that the roof did not cave in at all. It held the weight of the car. I'm sure if it had rolled more and came crashing down on it with more force than the weight of the car it would have been a different situation. Luckily it was a relatively low speed, twisty road accident.

Brakes are important, but upgrades are usually for the sake heat management for repeatable performance in maximum track conditions. In one panic stop your stock brakes in your m would probably stop in a very similar distance to upgraded rotors and pads, if only slightly longer. Unless your panic stopping from triple digits of course...which is kind of anti-productive to a safe public road experience ;)

I usually change the pads at a minimum to get better performance.

Brakes are important, but upgrades are usually for the sake heat management for repeatable performance in maximum track conditions. In one panic stop your stock brakes in your m would probably stop in a very similar distance to upgraded rotors and pads, if only slightly longer. Unless your panic stopping from triple digits of course...which is kind of anti-productive to a safe public road experience ;)

I usually change the pads at a minimum to get better performance.
normally sports car have good enough brakes for normal street driving, and the brakes on the M Roadster/Coupe (same as M3) are pretty good, but a friend of mine had a panic stop from about 100 and he said that by the time he got under 40mph, the brakes faded pretty bad. My "brake upgrade" was a set of very good street/auto-x pads, rotors, fluid, etc and it made a very good difference over stock....especially in the track type situations you mentioned.

normally sports car have good enough brakes for normal street driving, and the brakes on the M Roadster/Coupe (same as M3) are pretty good, but a friend of mine had a panic stop from about 100 and he said that by the time he got under 40mph, the brakes faded pretty bad. My "brake upgrade" was a set of very good street/auto-x pads, rotors, fluid, etc and it made a very good difference over stock....especially in the track type situations you mentioned.

Yeah that makes a difference! I make a point to at the least put in good pads, sometimes slotted rotors, and definitely motul fluid or the like.

I never noticed brake fade on my A4 brakes, which is strange because the rotors are fairly small for such a heavy car. They weren't much better than average though.

There is definitely a lot more heat build up as the speed increases, so much more kinetic energy to disperse. I'd have thought the stock m brakes could handle at least one panic stop from 100 though. Good to know! Everyone on this forum should be aware of just how hard it is to scrub off speed at 100+

And they can handle just fine. I was pleasantly surprised with the v6 convertible automatic mustang I rented. Sure it was loose and flexible - but it's limits were much higher than I expected. I had it in Maui for a week, and drove the 30 mile road to Hana 4 or 5 times with it. Twistiest road I've ever been on. If you drive it cautiously it will take you 2-3 hours. Me in the 'stang was about 45min to an hour, with delays waiting to get around slower cars. My new wife was a little green from the ride With a few suspension mods and maybe basic engine mods, a well driven mustang v6 would surprise a lot of 3 series drivers at the track.

Even the fox bodies can be worked to be handlers instead of drag cars. Just look into the American Iron series. Check out Briggs Racing products - they work magic with the live rear axle, outhandling cobras with IRS all day in competition. One good thing about sticking with old-tech, is 30 years of aftermarket expertise to make the most of it!

Why bother with the hp/liter smack talk. Everybody knows the Euro's have more technology invested in their engines, and do what they can to make the most power out of the least displacement. Hell look at the new Audi RS4 engine. 8250 redline in a 4.2L v8! To quote and Audiworld article: "In fact, no other production car has a higher mean piston speed. It even matches the world champion 19,000 RPM Renault RS25 F1 in terms of reciprocating velocity." Amazing! I love it! And the new M v10 is remarkable. But I sure as hell wouldn't pay 80k for either one.

And so what? Look at the new z06. 505hp out of a 7L. The viper needs a 8L V10 to get 510hp. It may be crude but it works, and it kicks ass.

It's ironic to me that a "huge" SBC (like the LS1) takes up less space than "small" 2.8l inline six from bmw. And weighs less. Dollar for dollar, modding the ford or chevy V8 will blow most cars away. Even the old turd 5.0L from the early 90's gt's can make a lot more power with simple mods. A simple $2k topend rebuild will take it from a stock 225hp/300ft-lb to 350hp/370ft-lb. That's pretty cool for some old school tech and shows that ford cheaps out with the oem equipment. 125hp gain for 2k isn't bad, especially staying N/A.
Strap a supercharger on there from this point.

Sorry for the rambling/ranting. Car bashing elitist scum get on my nerves. No true enthusiast bashes a car that is good at what it does, just because it isn't in the same class or category as theirs.

I'd prefer an M anyday, but I'd have a lot of fun with american muscle too. I'd set it up for the track specifically to humble elitist scum that need humbling.



Well put fastdream, except for that little "old 5.0L turd" comment, but I'll let it slide. I have a 91' 5.0L with a few "little mods" and I also have a 1997 BMW 540i/6 with a few "little mods". Both have weaknesses and strong points. Enjoy the car for what it can do.

Kill stories always annoy me. The driver's ability, the state of tune, the mods done to that particular car. You don't know what you are racing against. Back in my younger days I ran against a plain 1979 Chevy Malibu with a wicked big block that destroyed me. So many things affect the outcome of a race. These threads are useless. Most are from kids under 30 that haven't driven enough different cars to even know what they are talking about.

If a young punk doesn't play well after losing, do you blame all Mustang owners or was it maybe just because he was a "know-it-all" kid with an ego.

Don't always rip on the car or brand, rip on the dingleberry behind the wheel.

The 03-04 Cobras and Machs do have upgraded brakes. The difference is night and day from a GT's brakes (my sister has an 02' GT). The GT's brakes are single piston calipers with an 11 in rotor. Mine is a double piston caliper with 13 in rotors.

Well put fastdream, except for that little "old 5.0L turd" comment, but I'll let it slide. I have a 91' 5.0L with a few "little mods" and I also have a 1997 BMW 540i/6 with a few "little mods". Both have weaknesses and strong points. Enjoy the car for what it can do.

Kill stories always annoy me. The driver's ability, the state of tune, the mods done to that particular car. You don't know what you are racing against. Back in my younger days I ran against a plain 1979 Chevy Malibu with a wicked big block that destroyed me. So many things affect the outcome of a race. These threads are useless. Most are from kids under 30 that haven't driven enough different cars to even know what they are talking about.

If a young punk doesn't play well after losing, do you blame all Mustang owners or was it maybe just because he was a "know-it-all" kid with an ego.

Don't always rip on the car or brand, rip on the dingleberry behind the wheel.

Heh, sorry 'bout that :) Actually I have a 5.0 myself (though it is swapped into a volvo) so I was coming from my own perspective there. It's bark is much louder than it's bite. Sounds cool and will burn a set of tires to the cords, but it's not fast at all. Needs more mods!

I know the kill stories here can be annoying. But I enjoy reading threads here because these crazy people are willing to do things on the streets that I'm not, so I kind of get a cheap thrill out of it. Vicarious living I suppose. Not to say I haven't done these things ;) but not so much anymore now that I'm married and have a kiddo to look after.

You don't have to apologize. I wasn't mad. I suppose most of this is good fun. I was complimenting you on your good perspective on being an enthusiast. I have friends with Ford's, Chevy's, Mopar's, BMW's, Audi's, Cadillacs. You name it. We have fun with whatever we play with. I have four different brands in my driveway. I like them all.

It doesn't even have to be a car!

Heh, sorry 'bout that :) Actually I have a 5.0 myself (though it is swapped into a volvo) so I was coming from my own perspective there. It's bark is much louder than it's bite. Sounds cool and will burn a set of tires to the cords, but it's not fast at all. Needs more mods!

I know the kill stories here can be annoying. But I enjoy reading threads here because these crazy people are willing to do things on the streets that I'm not, so I kind of get a cheap thrill out of it. Vicarious living I suppose. Not to say I haven't done these things ;) but not so much anymore now that I'm married and have a kiddo to look after.
PICS OF THE 5.0VOLVO!!!!
This is awesome! Those things are so easy to get power out of, man, you'll surprise people!

As for the hp/L war, I like revs. That's why it matters. I want an engine I can be proud of, because stock, that mustang v8 leaves so much to be desired. 4.6L? 260bhp? There is a certain character that a higher revving race bred engine has. Of course, it comes with a price tag. I enjoy seeing the value in individual parts of the cars, and being able to recognize the achievement in that part. The new vette is amazing. I love nearly every bit of it. But I won't say that 505 bhp out of 7L is an achievement. 505 is amazing, but for 7L, not exactly spectacular (whether or not that is a lot of power is not the issue). I'm not saying I'd be able to handle all that torque/bhp, but I'd be more impressed if they did more with less. But, as we all know, that probably helped keep the price down, so in the end, to each their own.

The 03-04 Cobras and Machs do have upgraded brakes. The difference is night and day from a GT's brakes (my sister has an 02' GT). The GT's brakes are single piston calipers with an 11 in rotor. Mine is a double piston caliper with 13 in rotors.
yep, that reminds me, parts will be in today, and I will be doing a Cobra brake upgrade to a friend's GT on friday. He is very unhappy with the GT brakes and is looking forward to getting those on.

To each his own! Good enough.

Volvo 5.0 pics would be interesting. In a burnout!

:lol
eh, it looks like a boxy brick! Nothing special. Imagine a 1988 740, with faded black paint. It's fun though.

I'll see what I can do about the burnout pic :) I'm a little scared of breaking the thing since I'm used to higher redlines! I swear I hear valve float at 5500rpm :eek: Maybe my volvo tach is not accurate :help

Cars don't have to look good to be fun.

Friends of mine don't think the e30 is good looking either, and I didn't like it too much until after I "fell in love with her personality" ;), and now a clean e30 is the hottest thing under the sun for me.

Cars don't have to look good to be fun.

Friends of mine don't think the e30 is good looking either, and I didn't like it too much until after I "fell in love with her personality" ;), and now a clean e30 is the hottest thing under the sun for me.

I love e30's. I kinda wish now that I'd have looked for an e30 as my daily/beater car instead of this volvov8. But...no regrets that's for sure. It's tons of fun and my mind reels thinking of the power this silly thing could be putting down.

Oh and an update on the burnout thing. I don't know how the hell to do a standing burnout. I have no traction, peg it in first gear and it gets to redline almost instantaneously. So how do people do burnouts without frying their engine? Just feathering the throttle? Ah well it's not really my thing :) I've always done what I could as a driver to make the most of the available traction, so it's a little weird to try to lose it. It is kinda fun to be poking along in second gear, punch it and have the rear end dancing around, and I do enjoy drifting u-turns with lots of opposite lock :D

To do a "brake stand" as I call it, hold the brake down with your left foot and start giving the motor some throttle. With the low end torque of that motor it should start spinning the tires. Apply just enough brake to hold the car in one place. Modulate the accelerator so that it doesn't redline and modulate the brake pedal so you don't move forward.

You can sit there for minutes, although you may have a little extra rear brake pad wear. That's about the only thing that takes a beating.

If the car is a manual, you drop the clutch with a lot of revs to get the wheels spinning. Then quickly move your left foot over to the brake and start applying just enough pressure to stop the car from rolling forward. Modulate the accelerator so you don't overrev. Sit and smoke!

If the car is a manual, you drop the clutch with a lot of revs to get the wheels spinning. Then quickly move your left foot over to the brake and start applying just enough pressure to stop the car from rolling forward. Modulate the accelerator so you don't overrev. Sit and smoke!

Cool, that makes sense. That's what I've observed in videos of people burning out - you can see the car start to spin the tires and roll forward, then a quick stab of the brake to stop the motion. I have a manual and the ratio due to the stock volvo rear end is ridiculous (I believe 4.10 or similar) sounds like a tractor-trailer I have to shift so much. I am getting better at rev-matching and am surprised at the ease with which this 5.0 revs up and down. It's a lot snappier than any other car I've had.

Result that I expected going into this thread. The M Coupe is fast and light, the Stang GT had no chance. Its unfortunate he had to be suck a d**k. I see that rudeness and over confidence in a lot of mustang drivers. (noone jump on my back I didn't say all). Nice kill man, +1 BMW. I love to see 'stangs go down.
so the m-coups will run high 13's with the right driver. A 4.6 mustang coupe 5 speed will run high 13's with a good run. I run a 14.4 and never get close to a mustang. My friends dad has a 2002 conv. gt that ran a 14.7 grany shifting.
Ps a m coupe cost 42,000 and the 2003 mustang gt cost 23,000, and you put a little money in it and it will lay waste. A 2003 cobra cost 33,000 and would run high twelves. So you can spend more money and get less.

so the m-coups will run high 13's with the right driver. A 4.6 mustang coupe 5 speed will run high 13's with a good run. I run a 14.4 and never get close to a mustang. My friends dad has a 2002 conv. gt that ran a 14.7 grany shifting.
Ps a m coupe cost 42,000 and the mustang cost 2003 gt cost 23,000, and you put a little money in it and it will lay waste. A 2003 cobra cost 33,000 and would run high twelves. So you can spend more money and get less.If you spend less money, and get more power, you're sacrificing either quality, safety, reliability, or a combination of the 3. And I dunno about you, but I know I'D rather have a slightly slower car with more safety quality and reliability. Never pay too much for too little, but never pay too little for too much.

You can sit there for minutes, although you may have a little extra rear brake pad wear. That's about the only thing that takes a beating.

No. This is missinformation. You are putting TONS of stress on every component of your drive line. From your engine, clutch, and throwout bearing to your transmission to your drive shaft, differential, LSD unit, half shafts, inner and outer CV joints, brake calipers, rotors, pads, and your subframe, all the way to the obvious-tires.

It doesn't end there your front suspension is attempting to stop/hold the car while the rear is trying to push it. LOTS of stress/strain all over the car.

I'm not trying to pull anyone's card or even say that I've never done it. I'm saying that if you do it all the time you are putting a lost of wear on parts of your car you may not be thinking about.

so the m-coups will run high 13's with the right driver.

Stock Z3 M with the S54 ran 12.56 @ 109 off the show room floor (Awesome driver). Street tires and half a tank of gas. Only mod was the removal of the passenger seat if I remember correctly.

Look here for stock and modded numbers in many catigories:

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30535

How'd you manage a 14.4 with a 325?

so the m-coups will run high 13's with the right driver. A 4.6 mustang coupe 5 speed will run high 13's with a good run. I run a 14.4 and never get close to a mustang. My friends dad has a 2002 conv. gt that ran a 14.7 grany shifting.
Ps a m coupe cost 42,000 and the mustang cost 2003 gt cost 23,000, and you put a little money in it and it will lay waste. A 2003 cobra cost 33,000 and would run high twelves. So you can spend more money and get less.
when I was stock, i never had touble with any Mustang GTs, they just gave me funny looks when I slowed back down so they could catch up....besides that, yeah if you want a car that ONLY considers stright line speed why buy a mustang? there are other cars that can get there for less money expended? for that matter why car a car? why not get a bike and blow the doors off about any car on the road?

There is sooo much more to consider than only ET/$.

Ok so lets say the M Coupe is the same straight line speed than the mustang GT. It is doing so in a very nice interior with nice heated leather seats and the mustang is not even close in cmoparison. It will tear it up in the twisties....no competition. It is more rare and it has far superior looks.... whens the last time somebody followed a stock mustanghome to compliment and look at the car...for that matter whens the last time someone complimented a bone stock mustang from the erly 2000's on its looks alone. Its just a normal car with plain looks that people see everyday. I have had people follow me and stop me to compliment my car many times. I get countless thumbs up on the road when I am just cruising on the highway. Comparing the total package car 1:1 is obserd when consdiering price.

Ok....Whatever, prick.

That made me giggle.

-Eff

LOL, definitely.

You can sit there for minutes, although you may have a little extra rear brake pad wear. That's about the only thing that takes a beating.

Oh yeah, and this guy is a fool.

It is doing so in a very nice interior with nice heated leather seats
You dont need heated seats during the summer when the mustang should be driven. You can put a 5 link Suspension System on for less than $2000. You can put on Wheelz and tires for less than $1500. This will for sure handle far superior to the M-coupe.
I quess if you are willing to spend to much and are not willing to get your hands a little dirt doing some modifications yourself. The M-coupe is the choice for you, but i dont want a car that resembles an enormouse dick.

How'd you manage a 14.4 with a 325?
I g-teched my car. I average a 14.8 and my bes run was 14.4. For those who think the g-tech is in acurate my freind has a 328 with wheels and air filter. My car beets his as long as i launch well. He can launch so much better with his tires. We have gone from 40 and from 60 to a 110 and it is usualy a tie. So my car is at least a 14.8.

It is doing so in a very nice interior with nice heated leather seats
You dont need heated seats during the summer when the mustang should be driven. You can put a 5 link Suspension System on for less than $2000. You can put on Wheelz and tires for less than $1500. This will for sure handle far superior to the M-coupe.
I quess if you are willing to spend to much and are not willing to get your hands a little dirt doing some modifications yourself. The M-coupe is the choice for you, but i dont want a car that resembles an enormouse dick.
leather is nicer no mattre if hot or cold, when its hot out, put the top down and don't turn on the heated seats ;)

sure, you can throw mod money intoa mustang and make it handle better, just like you can throw mod money in a M Roadster/Coupe and make it handle better.

yes you are right about not getting my hands dirty, I can't do any of my own work:rolleyes ...... oh wait you don't know me and what I do...... I am under my car about every weekend doing all my own work, then I take it out, drive it, and make believers out of the closed minded like those that make comments like you

It is doing so in a very nice interior with nice heated leather seats
You dont need heated seats during the summer when the mustang should be driven. You can put a 5 link Suspension System on for less than $2000. You can put on Wheelz and tires for less than $1500. This will for sure handle far superior to the M-coupe.
I quess if you are willing to spend to much and are not willing to get your hands a little dirt doing some modifications yourself. The M-coupe is the choice for you, but i dont want a car that resembles an enormouse dick.
Why does having heated seats mean he doesn't do any of his own work. You shouldn't talk about someone like that if you don't know them. And btw, doing that 3500 bux worth of work will not make the Mustang handle better than the M-coupe/roadster. And even if it did, about 1000 dollars worth of work to the M-coupe/roadster would make it handle better again. Now why would someone who doesn't wanna do their own work be suited for an M-coupe? Where did that accusation come from. If you're god you should be able to make sensible comments about someone. And btw, its wheels not wheelz.

I was implying if you arnt willing to do your own work you should buy an m-penis. the m-penis will out perform the mustang stock vs stock(they are very simalar in 1/4).
But if you want a better car and you know how to work on your car you should get a mustang. the mustang cast half as much as the dildo. So you could put 20,000 in mods and heated seats and have a better car.

yeah again always hating mustangs on this forum, a 3m (maxium motorsports mustang) is no joke, my friend has this kit but with stiffer springs and he out handled my H&R modded 325 all day long which had light weight 17s and 235 tires while hes running 16s with 225s. he paid 4k for the stang that runs 12.8s easy, and put 2k into the suspension, still hasn't got to wheels and tires yet. So I have alot of ground to make up and its going to cost me alot more, ether way i like my car for what I do with it, but I like taking out his car and putting out the rear end with complete control when ever i want. Motor Trend Test (http://www.maximummotorsports.com/Grip-Box.pdf)

I'm probably gonna get bashed for this, but, doesnt 260 in a 4.6 V8 seem like dead weight to anyone? My dads old car had a 4.3 V8 with 275, and the e36 M3 has a 3.2 I6 with 250. 2 more cylinders, and a 1.4 bigger engine with only 10 horse more? Seems like ford couda gotten more natural power outa the gt engine. Or am i just making incorrect assumptions?
A 4.6 has 2 more cylinders and still weighs less. So whats the argument.

A 4.6 has 2 more cylinders and still weighs less. So whats the argument.

plus the ability to get way way more N/A power,

Even the old turd 5.0L from the early 90's gt's can make a lot more power with simple mods. A simple $2k topend rebuild will take it from a stock 225hp/300ft-lb to 350hp/370ft-lb.
the 5.0 is not a turd. You can build them to 600 hp without touching the lower end and it handle the power like nothing.

2002 M Coupe. Not a new mustang GT, a late 90's Mustang GT.

I am on the freeway with my girlfriend, late at night. There is hardly anyone on the road, so I open the Coupe up to about 110mph. I RARELY go very fast, but I haven't had many chances to open the car up. I pass a white Mustang GT, and eventualy slow down. Out of nowhere, the GT passes me, and then slows down next to me, and then takes off again. He switches lanes, so now he is on my right side. I'm not into racing, so I tried to ignore him, but even my girlfriend was saying, "Uhm, I think he wants to race you babe..."

Fair enough, I guess. I am going about 80, so I downshift from 5th into 3rd gear. My S54 starts screaming, and immediatly the GT starts to disappear in my rearview mirror. I gave him a little time to at least gain some ground, but it wasn't gonna happen... not only that, but my exit was coming up.

I exit, and he exits behind me. Theres a light at the end of the offramp, and he pulls up to my righthand side. I am an easygoing, nice guy, and since my window was down, I look over and say, "hows it goin dude?" The guy just sits there and stares me down. Ok....Whatever, prick.

I make a left, and he makes a left, too. We get to the next light; he's still staring at me. Sorry, a**hole, I have too much too lose to go fighting you over a stupid "race." He finnaly makes a left at the intersection, floors it, and fishtails, almost out of control. Had there been any oncoming traffic, he woulda been TOAST. What a jackass..

Hey... I pretty much had the same kind of kill you had.. lol check it out -- my old kill post. http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=428837

Way to go! :buttrock

I was implying if you arnt willing to do your own work you should buy an m-penis. the m-penis will out perform the mustang stock vs stock(they are very simalar in 1/4).
But if you want a better car and you know how to work on your car you should get a mustang. the mustang cast half as much as the dildo. So you could put 20,000 in mods and heated seats and have a better car.
Okay that's good and all, but it seemed like you were implying that HE didn't d his own work.
A 4.6 has 2 more cylinders and still weighs less. So whats the argument.It doesnt matter because the m3 weighs less than the mustang gt. Plus I wasn't talking about overall weight of the engine. I was calling the extra liters, aka extra size dead weight. In other words the engine is bigger than it should be for the power it puts out. A 4.6 should put out more than 260. So, finishing this I will say, the S52 is a better engine than the gt 4.6.

I was implying if you arnt willing to do your own work you should buy an m-penis. the m-penis will out perform the mustang stock vs stock(they are very simalar in 1/4).
But if you want a better car and you know how to work on your car you should get a mustang. the mustang cast half as much as the dildo. So you could put 20,000 in mods and heated seats and have a better car.
better car and know how to work on them? its poeple like this that give them a bad name like the guy driving the mustang that this thread is about :rolleyes

a friend of mine could not (and could not) work on his car because he didn't know hw. He just gave a shop the car and $$ and they put things on for him. He has a 5.0 fox body. I pesronally do ALL the work on my car that doesn't require special tooling which I don't have access to (cam install for example, butI have done cams on other cars). That is in no way representative of the community as a whole, but a simple example to show how boneheaded that comment is.


the 5.0 is not a turd. You can build them to 600 hp without touching the lower end and it handle the power like nothing.

sorry, but 225hp from 5.0 liters is a turd. Yeah it can handle big power but thats how american car manuufacturers work. They throw huge displacement at it with lots of margin in the design. Not efficient, but cheap. I'm not saying it a horrible approach, just not what I like.

Japanese like small displacement, efficient motor and some with f/i

eauropean like mid-size effiecient motors

americans like huge displacement to get the same power as the others

fyi - a friend of mine made 545whp and 585ft-lb on a stock S52 motor with a turbo kit put on. He ended up with a leaky head gasket after drag racing the car constantly, but the motor was fine and handled the power just fine. ;)

The old 5.0's look like turds too. See to me, if a base v6 from 1996 is better than a base v6 from 2004, there's something wrong there.

better car and know how to work on them? its poeple like this that give them a bad name like the guy driving the mustang that this thread is about :rolleyes

a friend of mine could not (and could not) work on his car because he didn't know hw. He just gave a shop the car and $$ and they put things on for him. He has a 5.0 fox body. I pesronally do ALL the work on my car that doesn't require special tooling which I don't have access to (cam install for example, butI have done cams on other cars). That is in no way representative of the community as a whole, but a simple example to show how boneheaded that comment is.



sorry, but 225hp from 5.0 liters is a turd. Yeah it can handle big power but thats how american car manuufacturers work. They throw huge displacement at it with lots of margin in the design. Not efficient, but cheap. I'm not saying it a horrible approach, just not what I like.

Japanese like small displacement, efficient motor and some with f/i

eauropean like mid-size effiecient motors

americans like huge displacement to get the same power as the others

fyi - a friend of mine made 545whp and 585ft-lb on a stock S52 motor with a turbo kit put on. He ended up with a leaky head gasket after drag racing the car constantly, but the motor was fine and handled the power just fine. ;)


well seems to me like you arnt telling the hole story. the 4.6 you are compairing cost 25k and the m 3.2 cost 40k. yeah thats fair, well lets start with the cobra about 375whp stock for 33k makes that M penis sound flaccid. and uneffecint american motor??? well my 5.0 gets close to 30mpg when crusing on the hwy. you have to understand that most of the 5.0s that you get your so called "kills" from are beaten to f**kin death. only about 3k for a powerfull car so most get beaten on bad. and they make 300tq if thats not powerfull then i dont know what is.well what ever rip every thing apart that i say and take it out of context and win your argument because there are so many of you, it make you think your right. have fun with my spelling d**ks:finger22

The old 5.0's look like turds too. See to me, if a base v6 from 1996 is better than a base v6 from 2004, there's something wrong there.
V6 stangs should not be made. there for pussys.

The old 5.0's look like turds too. See to me, if a base v6 from 1996 is better than a base v6 from 2004, there's something wrong there.
<o:p> </o:p>
The 5.0 mustang is an amazing setup if you plan on investing money into a car. Light, big room under the hood, and plenty of parts and nice big market to choose from. Motor swaps are very popular too, and not that expensive. 351w from the junkyard and sent her away to machine shop. Or 306 block with boost or w/e you desire so many options. Go on forever on a 5.0.
<o:p> </o:p>
I’m Sorry, but I didn’t read the whole thread it’s huge, but he said a latish 90s mustang? That car is mean to pick on, sn95s are slow and so are many other years around that era.
<o:p> </o:p>
Hodges76, it’s good to see another mach1 on here. 91 Notch, car looks good from what I see in the sig, don’t want to go off topic though.
<o:p> </o:p>
V6 mustangs, are one of Ford’s biggest sellers, it’s for people who don’t want the performance, but still have somewhat of a status of having a “mustang” I say it helps out ford, then keep them.
<o:p> </o:p>
Congrats on the win, or kill. I think the domestics and others, said what I wanted to cover, about the 4.6 and other topics. Thread is too huge to cover in one post.

well seems to me like you arnt telling the hole story. the 4.6 you are compairing cost 25k and the m 3.2 cost 40k. yeah thats fair, well lets start with the cobra about 375whp stock for 33k makes that M penis sound flaccid. and uneffecint american motor??? well my 5.0 gets close to 30mpg when crusing on the hwy. you have to understand that most of the 5.0s that you get your so called "kills" from are beaten to f**kin death. only about 3k for a powerfull car so most get beaten on bad. and they make 300tq if thats not powerfull then i dont know what is.well what ever rip every thing apart that i say and take it out of context and win your argument because there are so many of you, it make you think your right. have fun with my spelling d**ks:finger22
don't get me wrong, I am not saying that I hate all mustangs....on the contrary. If someone was to do a search for my posts in the Z3 forum, you would see that the M Roadster is not the car I would buy if I was just looking to build big power and keep a reasonable budget. The Cobra is perfect for that.

My comments were specifically related to my previous post in this thread about there being much more than ET/$$.

The mustang is much less money for much less luxury, and the BMW is much more money for more luxury, it makes sense to me. Money is not proportional to power, its more related to the total package.

mpg has alot to do with gearing also, not just displacement. I get 25mpg and I have no overdrive (5th is 1:1) and a 3.23 rear end. The mustangs have much better gearing for mpg than my car and can get some pretty good numbers as you stated. Put a 4.10 back there to make the car start to come alive and that mpg will start to go down. My comment about the motor being a turd isn't referring to a motor being beaten to death, its that Ford didn't develop the motor very much to make any good power. They put big displacement and lots of margin and left the consumer to develop the motor for them (Ford) and make power.

Hopefully I am not taking stuff out of context, because I am SURELY no BMW elitsit type. Most of the cars I run with aren't even BMWs.;)

<o:p> </o:p>
The 5.0 mustang is an amazing setup if you plan on investing money into a car. Light, big room under the hood, and plenty of parts and nice big market to choose from. Motor swaps are very popular too, and not that expensive. 351w from the junkyard and sent her away to machine shop. Or 306 block with boost or w/e you desire so many options. Go on forever on a 5.0.
<o:p> </o:p>
I’m Sorry, but I didn’t read the whole thread it’s huge, but he said a latish 90s mustang? That car is mean to pick on, sn95s are slow and so are many other years around that era.
<o:p> </o:p>
Hodges76, it’s good to see another mach1 on here. 91 Notch, car looks good from what I see in the sig, don’t want to go off topic though.
<o:p> </o:p>
V6 mustangs, are one of Ford’s biggest sellers, it’s for people who don’t want the performance, but still have somewhat of a status of having a “mustang” I say it helps out ford, then keep them.
<o:p> </o:p>
Congrats on the win, or kill. I think the domestics and others, said what I wanted to cover, about the 4.6 and other topics. Thread is too huge to cover in one post.
Oxford White is a fine color shakin steed. I just got my 4.10's today and hope to install them this week. That should really wake it up. Later

the 4.6 you are compairing cost 25k and the m 3.2 cost 40k. yeah thats fair


:bawl

you should head back to the ricer boards with that argument

:offtopic

hodges76:

Was the run in your sig on drag radials?

:offtopic

hodges76:

Was the run in your sig on drag radials?
yes with a 1.96 60' time. Traction is an issue at my track due to poor prep. Once again...love your car!

yes with a 1.96 60' time. Traction is an issue at my track due to poor prep. Once again...love your car!

Thanks man!

I've always been a big fan of Mustangs. I consider the straight line performance of the e46 M3 and the Mach 1 to be prettly close (disregarding the torque advantage of the Mach). I am taking my car to the strip in a few weeks and I would love to run the quarter at ~106 mph.

:drink1

No. This is missinformation. You are putting TONS of stress on every component of your drive line. From your engine, clutch, and throwout bearing to your transmission to your drive shaft, differential, LSD unit, half shafts, inner and outer CV joints, brake calipers, rotors, pads, and your subframe, all the way to the obvious-tires.

It doesn't end there your front suspension is attempting to stop/hold the car while the rear is trying to push it. LOTS of stress/strain all over the car.

I'm not trying to pull anyone's card or even say that I've never done it. I'm saying that if you do it all the time you are putting a lost of wear on parts of your car you may not be thinking about.

I did make a comment without properly finishing it. Yes you will wear out all those parts too if you're doing it every day. Not a good idea. Once in a great while isn't that bad though.

Oh yeah, and this guy is a fool.


Oh yeah, I love you too "ILoveMPower"! LOL:rolleyes

<o:p> </o:p>
The 5.0 mustang is an amazing setup if you plan on investing money into a car. Light, big room under the hood, and plenty of parts and nice big market to choose from. Motor swaps are very popular too, and not that expensive. 351w from the junkyard and sent her away to machine shop. Or 306 block with boost or w/e you desire so many options. Go on forever on a 5.0.
<o:p> </o:p>
I’m Sorry, but I didn’t read the whole thread it’s huge, but he said a latish 90s mustang? That car is mean to pick on, sn95s are slow and so are many other years around that era.
<o:p> </o:p>
Hodges76, it’s good to see another mach1 on here. 91 Notch, car looks good from what I see in the sig, don’t want to go off topic though.
<o:p> </o:p>
V6 mustangs, are one of Ford’s biggest sellers, it’s for people who don’t want the performance, but still have somewhat of a status of having a “mustang” I say it helps out ford, then keep them.
<o:p> </o:p>
Congrats on the win, or kill. I think the domestics and others, said what I wanted to cover, about the 4.6 and other topics. Thread is too huge to cover in one post.
The Mustang has always been the poorman's muscle car. They keep the price low to make it financially available to more people. Some buy one to be a drag car, some buy one for road racing. The consumer modifies it to their needs. That's the way it's been for year's. It's a great "starting platform" that can become excellent once in it's designated setup.

sorry, but 225hp from 5.0 liters is a turd. Yeah it can handle big power but thats how american car manuufacturers work. They throw huge displacement at it with lots of margin in the design. Not efficient, but cheap. I'm not saying it a horrible approach, just not what I like.

Japanese like small displacement, efficient motor and some with f/i

eauropean like mid-size effiecient motors

americans like huge displacement to get the same power as the others

fyi - a friend of mine made 545whp and 585ft-lb on a stock S52 motor with a turbo kit put on. He ended up with a leaky head gasket after drag racing the car constantly, but the motor was fine and handled the power just fine. ;)
5.0L is huge displacement??? 5.0s and the latest 4.6s have always been sold fairly detuned, a lot of potential. It doesn't take much to get big jumps in power with simple head and intake swaps. Not to mention reprogramming, underdrive pulleys, exhaust changes. Good motors.

Oh, and if you have a little cash laying around....
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=6787

Here's an old article. Check out where this 90' LX (with 180,000 miles on it) came in for these slalom test results....and $/mph.

http://www.maximummotorsports.com/Grip-Box.pdf

As much as I love my BMW. A Mustang can be done up to stop as good, handle as good and accelerate as good as a BMW. Sorry folks. Check out the competition's websites sometime. That goes for Chevy, Dodge, and Audi. etc., too.

They will never have the luxury or status, but I have seen the face of an M3 owner after getting tromped by a lowly 5.0 (not stock of course). It's not pretty.

Anyways, all this crap is just my two cents.

Here's an old article. Check out where this 90' LX (with 180,000 miles on it) came in for these slalom test results....and $/mph.

http://www.maximummotorsports.com/Grip-Box.pdf

As much as I love my BMW. A Mustang can be done up to stop as good, handle as good and accelerate as good as a BMW. Sorry folks. Check out the competition's websites sometime. That goes for Chevy, Dodge, and Audi. etc., too.

They will never have the luxury or status, but I have seen the face of an M3 owner after getting tromped by a lowly 5.0 (not stock of course). It's not pretty.

Anyways, all this crap is just my two cents.Okay, so hypothetically you put 3 grand into a mustang, and it equals in accel, handling, and deccel, to a... lets say... e36 m3. Put 3 grand into an e36 m3, well lets just say teh win. Plus you can't match the quality.

Okay, so hypothetically you put 3 grand into a mustang, and it equals in accel, handling, and deccel, to a... lets say... e36 m3. Put 3 grand into an e36 m3, well lets just say teh win. Plus you can't match the quality.
I dont think you understand the mustang. It is a cheap platform with room for costomazation. As stated it can be an eccelent drag and track car. The mustang cost $10,000 dollars less than a M3(roughly), when they were brand new. So when you put 3 grand into the mustang you still didnt buy the m3 yet.
The reason i bought a bmw is because i like when i am taking turns hard out on some country road i always feel in control. The mustang is a better financial car, but if you get down to it they are both sweet cars.:buttrock

I dont think you understand the mustang. It is a cheap platform with room for costomazation. As stated it can be an eccelent drag and track car. The mustang cost $10,000 dollars less than a M3(roughly), when they were brand new. So when you put 3 grand into the mustang you still didnt buy the m3 yet.
The reason i bought a bmw is because i like when i am taking turns hard out on some country road i always feel in control. The mustang is a better financial car, but if you get down to it they are both sweet cars.:buttrock
Yes the mustang is a cheap platform for customization, but for many bmw owners, the 3 series is the same way.

Okay, so hypothetically you put 3 grand into a mustang, and it equals in accel, handling, and deccel, to a... lets say... e36 m3. Put 3 grand into an e36 m3, well lets just say teh win. Plus you can't match the quality.
Honestly, not to start a war (we are all mature adults), but the two cars are so different that they shouldn't be compared at all. I have owned both makes within the last 3 to 4 years and there is only a few catagories in which they are similiar. I personally would rather have an E46 M3 coupe over my Mach 1 or even an 03-04 Cobra but it was not the practical choice for me. However, there are reasons (other than $$) that I chose the Mach. I wanted to be able to take the car to the dealer or the repair shop without driving to the nearest BMW place for repairs. This area has no place competent enough for bimmers or any european cars. Then there is the cost of repairs and parts. I also wanted to eventually mod the car with alot of bolt on's. I'll be the first to tell you that, if it will make your car go faster, then they make it for a mustang. It will also (most likely) show a noticable hp increase for very little money. For example, my mods:
stock I ran 13.735 @ 103.93 mph with a 2.269 60'
after exhaust mod 13.534 @ 104.37 2.219
programmer & CAI 13.381 @ 105.14 2.132
D.Radials 13.030 @ 106.42 1.969
I spent under a $1,000.00 dollars for a large gain in power. The faster times were also made during hotter temps which hurt a bit. I just purchased 4.10's (125.00) with installation 150.00. and I expect a .3-.5 decrease in my 1/4 mile times. With N2O awaiting arrival, I expect to dip into the low 12's or upper 11's with only 1,700.00-1,900.00 spent. I'm no math major but that is approx. 2 secs faster than stock.
If I wanted a car for luxury,power,handling and quality then the M3 is the clear choice, but that's not what I needed.
If anyone here claims that a mustang is a better car than a Bimmer or a Mercedes-Benz then raise your hand....or better yet, go ahead and chop your hands off because this world would be a better place without more morons behind the wheel. Different strokes for different folks and man are they different.
Yours Truly,
A Car Lover

Hodges, for the time that I've been on the board, I've always respected you, and respected your opinion strongly. All of your posts are well thought out, and informative. They make sense. I try my best to not have to compare bimmers to mustangs, especially mine, the e36, because as you said they are so different. Unfortunately, so many kids my age have mustangs and insist on saying how much better they are than bimmers. The only mustang I have any respect for is the Mach 1. I believe the v6 is too weak, the gt could have more power, and I don't pay attention to the cobra, I think for the price, there's other cars you can get that have similar power, and are better. But these bimmer vs. stang kill threads always become a bimmer vs. mustang arguement. The moral of this kill was that the stang lost, and the driver was an a hole about it. Now yes I don't like mustangs, and as I said earlier in the thread I love to see stangs go down. But this arguement is getting redundant. And like you said, you cant compare the two cars, they arent even in the same class.

It should be no surprise that young kids truely believe their stuff is nicer no matter what it is. I would be ashamed to associate myself with someone that honestly believed that any v6 stang is considered a performance car. They are good for young girls to drive until they are traded in and then either crushed, parted out or made into a track whore. I'm ashamed of them guys that talk trash and feel anything other than their car is junk. I thought my 1978 3/4 ton long wheel base truck was fast during the early 90's in high school...it was to me. It had a cold a/c and 2 coats of 5% tint, that's all I needed.
BMW's were not around my town. I think I recall looking and pointing at any BMW's I seen on family trips, asking "daddy what is that?". Point being, not everybody is familiar with Bimmers. Just consider the majority of small towns without internet capabilities and cable TV. I think you would be surprised at the actual number that are uninformed. They are all probably flying kites, roping calves and playing marbles. "I seen a famous person today while visiting the general stores for pawpaw." "Who was it Jed?" "Don't recall, but it gots to be a movie star cus they were driving a black B-M-W.
Maybe I went a little overboard. I honestly do not give 2 s^its about this topic and feel stupid for spending my time trying to explain something that is, after all, only my opinion and not actual fact. Excuse me while I troll on through. I leave you with a few pictures to express my thoughts a little better.http://www.lowdub.com/forumfun/threadsucks/slides/nowherethread.jpg
http://www.lowdub.com/forumfun/threadsucks/slides/poop.jpg
http://www.lowdub.com/forumfun/movingstuff/hititstarwars.gif

5.0L is huge displacement??? 5.0s and the latest 4.6s have always been sold fairly detuned, a lot of potential. It doesn't take much to get big jumps in power with simple head and intake swaps. Not to mention reprogramming, underdrive pulleys, exhaust changes. Good motors.

Oh, and if you have a little cash laying around....
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField=6787
5.0 is by no means big motor for the american market, its simply the motor in this conversation. When I made the blanket statement about american car manufacturers using "huge" displacement, things like 427, 440, 454, 502, etc come to mind.

so BMW developed smaller motor getting great power, and they have slowly increased displacement and kept them highly tuned. For example, Chevy released their C6 Z06 make a little over 500hp out of a 427, and BMW just released their M5 with a little over 500hp out of a 5.0L motor (5.0 is a big motor for europe with mostly only supercars having bigger displacement). That was my comparison. Please don't think I am bashing the Z06, because it truly is an awesome machine.

I actually like what Ford is doing with their motors now. They used to make the consumer deveop the motor. They have kept and actually developed the 4.6L motor. They have had it for close to 10 years now and it is up to being a DOHC 4-valve all aluminum motor making 300hp. They are getting there. The europeans still think that 300hp from a 4.6 V8 isn't alot (and in some respects I agree), but its a step in the right direction.

Hodges - yeah this convo is waaayy off original topic, but we can only talk about a M Coupe outrunning a GT for so long, and I enjoy stimulating convo. But this has probably run its course.

If Ford wanted to put a 5.4 DOHC 450 hp V-8 in all 05 GT's they would. I'm sure they have more than 1 reason not too though. Sales would suffer and cost would rise....not a good formula for success. Ford has the SVP line-up which is more than enough to keep pace with Dodges srt4,srt10,r/t's,vipers and Bimmers M cars, mercedes compressors, etc. Hell if Ford wanted to build an exact copy of BMW's 3.3L's or 2.5's then they would. Once again cost would rise, all mechanics would need to be retrained, all for what? Bragging rights? Our engine is more effecient than yours is! I'm sure Ford stockholders are laughing all the way to the bank.

I actually like what Ford is doing with their motors now. They used to make the consumer deveop the motor. They have kept and actually developed the 4.6L motor. They have had it for close to 10 years now and it is up to being a DOHC 4-valve all aluminum motor making 300hp. They are getting there. The europeans still think that 300hp from a 4.6 V8 isn't alot (and in some respects I agree), but its a step in the right direction.


Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the 7 series have a 4.4 liter engine with 325 hp and 325 tq? That seems pretty close to Ford's 4.6 310hp and 330 tq.

Fords v8 is a tuned one if you look at euro tuned its 400+hp. Need to look at apple vs apple.

Hell if Ford wanted to build an exact copy of BMW's 3.3L's or 2.5's then they would. Once again cost would rise, all mechanics would need to be retrained, all for what? Bragging rights? Our engine is more effecient than yours is! I'm sure Ford stockholders are laughing all the way to the bank.
well, I do know that GT owners get pissed when they lose to a car they just called a chic car. Actually, I bet Ford's stock holders are pissed..... have you seen that they are worth about 1/3 of what they were 5 years ago?


Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the 7 series have a 4.4 liter engine with 325 hp and 325 tq? That seems pretty close to Ford's 4.6 310hp and 330 tq.

its true that ford's 2005 4.6L V8 in their sports car makes about the same power as bmw's 4.4L motor in their luxury cruiser. They are trying to make that their sports car, its a nice torquey cruiser motor that will last hundreds of thousands of miles. BMW does offer the 400hp 4.8L V8 in the X5 in which they actually market it as a powerful vehicle.

besides, I said I like what they are doing with their motors, they are actually developing instead of just throwing lots of displacement, but as you said...... developing a motor properly costs $$ and it would raise the price.

European cars learned to make horsepower from small displacement motors because hey had to. Gas was always a lot more expensive there, and and the old American V8's would have been financially untenable. Thus, the small displacement motor became their starting point and the big (or small) block V8 became the American starting point for performance engines.
I think that simply looking at displacement is an artificial standard. Who really cares how big those holes are in the middle of the engine? It's performance, character and economy that matter, not bore x stroke.
Europan cars have made impressive numbers with smaller motors (not just BMW) and American cars have closed the gaps for MPG by taking advantage of big torque for taller gearing. I dont think it is a question of a "proper" motor, or who is a "better" engineer. Just two different design philosophies.
A big pushrod V8 may never match the sing-sing topend of a spinner, but then again, the smaller motors will never match the raw grunt of a big block. Horspower, maybe. Torque, no.
Also, as far as requiring the customer to do the design R and D for a performance engine, let us not forget the large and potent aftermarket brought by the manufacturers themselves: FMS, Mopar, etc. The ability is there and the customer gets the choice to beef it up or go the economical route and leave it stock.

European cars learned to make horsepower from small displacement motors because hey had to. Gas was always a lot more expensive there, and and the old American V8's would have been financially untenable. Thus, the small displacement motor became their starting point and the big (or small) block V8 became the American starting point for performance engines.
I think that simply looking at displacement is an artificial standard. Who really cares how big those holes are in the middle of the engine? It's performance, character and economy that matter, not bore x stroke.
Europan cars have made impressive numbers with smaller motors (not just BMW) and American cars have closed the gaps for MPG by taking advantage of big torque for taller gearing. I dont think it is a question of a "proper" motor, or who is a "better" engineer. Just two different design philosophies.
A big pushrod V8 may never match the sing-sing topend of a spinner, but then again, the smaller motors will never match the raw grunt of a big block. Horspower, maybe. Torque, no.
Also, as far as requiring the customer to do the design R and D for a performance engine, let us not forget the large and potent aftermarket brought by the manufacturers themselves: FMS, Mopar, etc. The ability is there and the customer gets the choice to beef it up or go the economical route and leave it stock.
Well, at least some people get the point of where this thread has turned. I agree. Thanks CaCatfish, God, hodges76, shakin steed and the others that contributed, but we should maybe stop adding to this. The point has been made.:redspot

2002 M Coupe. Not a new mustang GT, a late 90's Mustang GT.

I am on the freeway with my girlfriend, late at night. There is hardly anyone on the road, so I open the Coupe up to about 110mph. I RARELY go very fast, but I haven't had many chances to open the car up. I pass a white Mustang GT, and eventualy slow down. Out of nowhere, the GT passes me, and then slows down next to me, and then takes off again. He switches lanes, so now he is on my right side. I'm not into racing, so I tried to ignore him, but even my girlfriend was saying, "Uhm, I think he wants to race you babe..."

Fair enough, I guess. I am going about 80, so I downshift from 5th into 3rd gear. My S54 starts screaming, and immediatly the GT starts to disappear in my rearview mirror. I gave him a little time to at least gain some ground, but it wasn't gonna happen... not only that, but my exit was coming up.

I exit, and he exits behind me. Theres a light at the end of the offramp, and he pulls up to my righthand side. I am an easygoing, nice guy, and since my window was down, I look over and say, "hows it goin dude?" The guy just sits there and stares me down. Ok....Whatever, prick.

I make a left, and he makes a left, too. We get to the next light; he's still staring at me. Sorry, a**hole, I have too much too lose to go fighting you over a stupid "race." He finnaly makes a left at the intersection, floors it, and fishtails, almost out of control. Had there been any oncoming traffic, he woulda been TOAST. What a jackass..

i had a similar experience with pretty much the same car. guy wanted to race, i dropped to 3rd and watched as he disappeared in the rearview.
I slowed and he then flew by me at 100+ into moderately heavy traffic. loser.
He probably had no idea what he was up against and laid off a bit thinking it was going to be an easy kill. too bad.

S54's M coupe/Roadsters dont run high 13's. Try low 13's and if with a good drive high 12's. They were the fastest STOCK M series car aviable to the market till the release of the new M5.

Well, at least some people get the point of where this thread has turned. I agree. Thanks CaCatfish, God, hodges76, shakin steed and the others that contributed, but we should maybe stop adding to this. The point has been made.:redspot
:rofl as if this is some fight of BMW vs. Ford

cacatfish makes alot of good points and I agree with it, alot of it is preference on how you get the power/performance (and total package as a car) and how much you spend, I prefer my little chic car :D

///M > Mustang.

I had an experience with a brand new GT when I was taking the M5 to get it's wheels re-finished. Kid from st. charles thought that he could take me. He thought wrong. There's a thread about it somewhere on dtmpower, but since they gave the axe to the kills stories forum, I don't think it exists anymore.

Its hard to understand where comparing a BMW 3 series or M , to a Ford Mustang GT or Cobra. Both cars were designed for completely different purposes and buyers.
The stang is a long time "muscle car" in that class that began decades ago , a class of "affordable" sports cars that most of the people in the world could buy at a good price for the car they get. ( including the camaro, firebird, nova, charger, challenger, gto, all these are in that class)
The BMW was created living on a heritage that focused around a " performance luxury sedan" class. which includes the MB's, newer Caddys, Lincolns, audis, and on. ) Indeed the performance can be simmilar, or made better with extra cash on any car. BMW did a great job of making their cars with great "all around" performance, meaning they handle, great, ride great, and are fast. ( but remember BMW has focused on a total of about only 15 or so total models from the entire company, so they had to ( and could) spend alot more on each model. Ford on the other hand, ( like GM & Chrysler) builds nearly a hundred different cars , trucks, vans, etc.each year. Thus it became cost effective to use common parts in many models. An example is that original "5.0 litre V8", that same engine during the eighties & nineties was used in many of their cars , vans, pickup trucks, station wagons, etc. at various states of tune. It was a need to build a cost effective base engine , that could be versatile enough to be used in everything from the mustangs to their work trucks,...all tuned differently for each purpose, and keep costs down, ( thus allowing each model to be sold for a cheaper price. ( it would cost ALOT to build tooling and machining to build a different engine for all the cars that ford had in is lineup in a given year.
Though in the recent years some of the american auto makers have been developing engines for a "one car" purpose and not looking at costs.
One example is the new Caddy STS-V. they built that Northstar 32-valve , Dual overhead cam V8..... 4.4 litres...with 469 bhp.
(:see link:)
http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/cadillac_stsv_base_2006/18174/style_overview.html
thats OVER that magical " 100 hp per litre" , that less than 15 years ago was found only in production cars like the ferraris, turbo porsches, etc.
because GM decided to go with the "smaller displacement / higer horsepower" formula like BMW been using for years, it meant the STS-V will be more expensive.
Basically its a "cost vs. practicality" question.
Now im' babbling to much. :redspot

Its hard to understand where comparing a BMW 3 series or M , to a Ford Mustang GT or Cobra. Both cars were designed for completely different purposes and buyers.
The stang is a long time "muscle car" in that class that began decades ago , a class of "affordable" sports cars that most of the people in the world could buy at a good price for the car they get. ( including the camaro, firebird, nova, charger, challenger, gto, all these are in that class)
The BMW was created living on a heritage that focused around a " performance luxury sedan" class. which includes the MB's, newer Caddys, Lincolns, audis, and on. ) Indeed the performance can be simmilar, or made better with extra cash on any car. BMW did a great job of making their cars with great "all around" performance, meaning they handle, great, ride great, and are fast. ( but remember BMW has focused on a total of about only 15 or so total models from the entire company, so they had to ( and could) spend alot more on each model. Ford on the other hand, ( like GM & Chrysler) builds nearly a hundred different cars , trucks, vans, etc.each year. Thus it became cost effective to use common parts in many models. An example is that original "5.0 litre V8", that same engine during the eighties & nineties was used in many of their cars , vans, pickup trucks, station wagons, etc. at various states of tune. It was a need to build a cost effective base engine , that could be versatile enough to be used in everything from the mustangs to their work trucks,...all tuned differently for each purpose, and keep costs down, ( thus allowing each model to be sold for a cheaper price. ( it would cost ALOT to build tooling and machining to build a different engine for all the cars that ford had in is lineup in a given year.
Though in the recent years some of the american auto makers have been developing engines for a "one car" purpose and not looking at costs.
One example is the new Caddy STS-V. they built that Northstar 32-valve , Dual overhead cam V8..... 4.4 litres...with 469 bhp.
(:see link:)
http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/cadillac_stsv_base_2006/18174/style_overview.html
thats OVER that magical " 100 hp per litre" , that less than 15 years ago was found only in production cars like the ferraris, turbo porsches, etc.
because GM decided to go with the "smaller displacement / higer horsepower" formula like BMW been using for years, it meant the STS-V will be more expensive.
Basically its a "cost vs. practicality" question.
Now im' babbling to much. :redspot
nice post

European cars learned to make horsepower from small displacement motors because hey had to. Gas was always a lot more expensive there, and and the old American V8's would have been financially untenable. Thus, the small displacement motor became their starting point and the big (or small) block V8 became the American starting point for performance engines.
I think that simply looking at displacement is an artificial standard. Who really cares how big those holes are in the middle of the engine? It's performance, character and economy that matter, not bore x stroke.
Europan cars have made impressive numbers with smaller motors (not just BMW) and American cars have closed the gaps for MPG by taking advantage of big torque for taller gearing. I dont think it is a question of a "proper" motor, or who is a "better" engineer. Just two different design philosophies.
A big pushrod V8 may never match the sing-sing topend of a spinner, but then again, the smaller motors will never match the raw grunt of a big block. Horspower, maybe. Torque, no.
Also, as far as requiring the customer to do the design R and D for a performance engine, let us not forget the large and potent aftermarket brought by the manufacturers themselves: FMS, Mopar, etc. The ability is there and the customer gets the choice to beef it up or go the economical route and leave it stock.

very nicely put. i think im going to direct all the BMW made it with a smaller motor to this thred. its odd this thred is starting to solve itself. mayby the end to all stang vs. bwm bulls**t

:rofl as if this is some fight of BMW vs. Ford

cacatfish makes alot of good points and I agree with it, alot of it is preference on how you get the power/performance (and total package as a car) and how much you spend, I prefer my little chic car :D
It sort of seems like a lot of previous bad feelings have been coming out. A small fight maybe? :devillook
I was just thanking those guys because I agree with what they are saying. Some of the earlier posts were by people that really didn't know what they were talking about. Probably young.
Oh, and you had some good input too.;)

Its hard to understand where comparing a BMW 3 series or M , to a Ford Mustang GT or Cobra. Both cars were designed for completely different purposes and buyers.
The stang is a long time "muscle car" in that class that began decades ago , a class of "affordable" sports cars that most of the people in the world could buy at a good price for the car they get. ( including the camaro, firebird, nova, charger, challenger, gto, all these are in that class)
The BMW was created living on a heritage that focused around a " performance luxury sedan" class. which includes the MB's, newer Caddys, Lincolns, audis, and on. ) Indeed the performance can be simmilar, or made better with extra cash on any car. BMW did a great job of making their cars with great "all around" performance, meaning they handle, great, ride great, and are fast. ( but remember BMW has focused on a total of about only 15 or so total models from the entire company, so they had to ( and could) spend alot more on each model. Ford on the other hand, ( like GM & Chrysler) builds nearly a hundred different cars , trucks, vans, etc.each year. Thus it became cost effective to use common parts in many models. An example is that original "5.0 litre V8", that same engine during the eighties & nineties was used in many of their cars , vans, pickup trucks, station wagons, etc. at various states of tune. It was a need to build a cost effective base engine , that could be versatile enough to be used in everything from the mustangs to their work trucks,...all tuned differently for each purpose, and keep costs down, ( thus allowing each model to be sold for a cheaper price. ( it would cost ALOT to build tooling and machining to build a different engine for all the cars that ford had in is lineup in a given year.
Though in the recent years some of the american auto makers have been developing engines for a "one car" purpose and not looking at costs.
One example is the new Caddy STS-V. they built that Northstar 32-valve , Dual overhead cam V8..... 4.4 litres...with 469 bhp.
(:see link:)
http://autos.yahoo.com/newcars/cadillac_stsv_base_2006/18174/style_overview.html
thats OVER that magical " 100 hp per litre" , that less than 15 years ago was found only in production cars like the ferraris, turbo porsches, etc.
because GM decided to go with the "smaller displacement / higer horsepower" formula like BMW been using for years, it meant the STS-V will be more expensive.
Basically its a "cost vs. practicality" question.
Now im' babbling to much. :redspot
yep, i agree, but with forced induction, power/liter gets alot easier and is becoming commonplace in sportscars. The n/a 100hp/liter does indeed come at a price that most american car manufcaturers (or anoy other country's mfrs for that matter) are not wanteing to go to (because they really don't have to). I would like to get blown (twinscrew) and be making a reliable 450whp out of my 3.2L as a final touch to an otherwise well sorted out car (with brakes, suspension, etc all being done as well prior to adding power)

It sort of seems like a lot of previous bad feelings have been coming out. A small fight maybe?
I was just thanking those guys because I agree with what they are saying. Some of the earlier posts were by people that really didn't know what they were talking about. Probably young.
Oh, and you had some good input too.
not really, I just don't like being called a stereotype as someone who doesn't know how to turn his wrenches competently, just like the american muscle guys don't like people calling them by the negative stereotypes we all hear.

like I stated earlier, I think that both cars fit into their pricepoint and they reflect that as a total package. Some people prefer one direction, some prefer the other direction.

S54's M coupe/Roadsters dont run high 13's. Try low 13's and if with a good drive high 12's. They were the fastest STOCK M series car aviable to the market till the release of the new M5.
A well driven z8 is (prior to the m5)

Now that we've tackled that topic....lets see about this damn national deficit and maybe quickly touch on World Peace.