So...
Anyone have any unique approaches to E36 weight reduction?
Above and beyond the usual stuff - of course.

Thinking perhaps a rear lexan window to replace the oem glass (but how much is really saved back there?). Perhaps a very anal underbody stripping? What about the rear bumper sub reinforcement? Does it weight anything substantial and if so, can it be removed? Who dun it? Anyone ever find a lightweight driveshaft out there for these cars? Who's running double pumps on the OEM tank?

Come on....
Give me all you got.

Need to loose some weight in my fat M3 arse.

you ought try losing some weight on your own fat ass:D

So...
Anyone have any unique approaches to E36 weight reduction?
Above and beyond the usual stuff - of course.

Thinking perhaps a rear lexan window to replace the oem glass (but how much is really saved back there?). Perhaps a very anal underbody stripping? What about the rear bumper sub reinforcement? Does it weight anything substantial and if so, can it be removed? Who dun it? Anyone ever find a lightweight driveshaft out there for these cars? Who's running double pumps on the OEM tank?

Come on....
Give me all you got.

Need to loose some weight in my fat M3 arse.

I saved the most weight by switching from an e36 to an e30 318, but keeping all of the good stuff from an e36... suspension, brakes, steering, engine, trans, and 18" wheels & slicks. Car weight wet...less than 2300lbs

Not many ferrous driveshafts out there will weigh less than stock.
Bumper guts saves some lbs.
Double pumps works with e36, but not nearly as well with e30.
Most of the weight savings will be in the rear, so be prepared to change rear spring rates to compensate.

Andrew,
There ARE front & rear bumper structure reinforcements available (in I believe carbon fibre) - ask Marc McConnell - I know he's done them at both ends earlier in 2005. I think PMI (in Quebec) has a source...or IS the source...

Dave Rowlison
#65, IP

Make your own Bumpers supports, remove the stock one entirely.

Cut most of the heavy sheet metal section out and tube frame it. Composite everything, skinned trunk lid with chassis mounted wing, light wheels, brakes, suspension components, it all adds up.

E36 in Mod (just D/C) can be under 2300lbs if enough time/money is spent. Supermod an E36 can see 2200lbs.

Thinking perhaps a rear lexan window to replace the oem glass (but how much is really saved back there?).

Very little, but every pound adds up over time.

One of the most effective things you can do to the rear is replace the trunk lid. You can lose a little bit by going with a "structural" compostite lid. You can lose a LOT more by going with a rear "skin" of only a couple layers of CF and then mounting the wing down through the trunk onto the chassis. Your PTG style wing back there is pretty heavy as well.

Make your own Bumpers supports, remove the stock one entirely.

Cut most of the heavy sheet metal section out and tube frame it. Composite everything, skinned trunk lid with chassis mounted wing, light wheels, brakes, suspension components, it all adds up.

E36 in Mod (just D/C) can be under 2300lbs if enough time/money is spent. Supermod an E36 can see 2200lbs.

I was being vague, but since Tunerzine published the weight of my car at http://www.tunerzine.com/articles/2005/featuredcar/issue12/raceBMW/article.html, I'll post it here too... 2175 wet.

Remove ALL the glass and replace it with mar-gaurd, the stuff nascar uses...it's light and does not break easy. And all the sunroof crap.

My D mod E30 wet was 2140, no driver, 2320 with driver...stock body panels..

My pig sits at 2600 wet.
Would like to Jenny Craig her ass this winter down to 2500
Going to "get crazy" with a heat gun and scraper on the underbody
Double pump with the OEM tank will save me fule weight
Lexan rear window to be cool like the go fast guys and intimidate on public hwy's.
Wish I could run the alluminum block that the new E90's have....

2:45pm - time for a ice cold coors light...

you ought try losing some weight on your own fat ass:D

You wish your pig had stars like mine.............................................. .......Biouch

CF gas tank:)

And Akard, 2175 seems a tad heavy. You should be able to get under 2000 without much more effort.
And no offense intended, but with that HP and weight, that cage is significantly underbuilt for any kind of useful crash protection or chassis torsional rigidity.

wow!

CF gas tank:)

And Akard, 2175 seems a tad heavy. You should be able to get under 2000 without much more effort.
And no offense intended, but with that HP and weight, that cage is significantly underbuilt for any kind of useful crash protection or chassis torsional rigidity.

Thats from the BMW catalog by the way :)

Thats from the BMW catalog by the way :)


Very cool!!

I've always wondered where is this fabled BMW Motorsport catalog. You always hear its available through BMW motorsport but I have never seen a catalog.

CF gas tank:)

And Akard, 2175 seems a tad heavy. You should be able to get under 2000 without much more effort.
And no offense intended, but with that HP and weight, that cage is significantly underbuilt for any kind of useful crash protection or chassis torsional rigidity.

None taken. Wow! All that from those photos?
I'd REALLY like to see you get an e30 to less than 2000lbs "without much more effort" and still be legal by using the required factory parts that still has 14" rotors and 18 x 10 wheels with 305 slicks and a FULL 15 gallon cell AND that cage you think will have much better structural integrity.

Getting the weight down there WITH all those heavy brakes and tires/wheels goodies and a full 15 gallon fuel cell is the real trick...especially at a rolling chassis cost of less than $15k including the widebody kit!

CF gas tank:)

And Akard, 2175 seems a tad heavy. You should be able to get under 2000 without much more effort.
And no offense intended, but with that HP and weight, that cage is significantly underbuilt for any kind of useful crash protection or chassis torsional rigidity.

Part number? Or maybe part numbers?

I've always wondered where is this fabled BMW Motorsport catalog. You always hear its available through BMW motorsport but I have never seen a catalog.

Where do you think I Copy/Pasted the picture from?:)

They have a couple Catalog's actually. I just got the 2005 WTCC catalog via email, but it was corrupt, so i'm waiting for them to fix it and send it again.

None taken. Wow! All that from those photos?
I'd REALLY like to see you get an e30 to less than 2000lbs "without much more effort" and still be legal by using the required factory parts that still has 14" rotors and 18 x 10 wheels with 305 slicks and a FULL 15 gallon cell AND that cage you think will have much better structural integrity.

Getting the weight down there WITH all those heavy brakes and tires/wheels goodies and a full 15 gallon fuel cell is the real trick...especially at a rolling chassis cost of less than $15k including the widebody kit!

Hehe, it would be a fun project, don't tempt me ;) I would spend more then 15k, b/c i don't like to mess around. Do it once and do it right the first time, no point of not doing it to the best of my abilities.
And its not from just the photos, it's from seeing it at the BMW CR races all season. Its a fast car regardless, we all know. But it can get significantly lighter.
This is what CR is all about though, going fast with such a basic idea...lightweight, big tires, big HP.

Where do you think I Copy/Pasted the picture from?:)

They have a couple Catalog's actually. I just got the 2005 WTCC catalog via email, but it was corrupt, so i'm waiting for them to fix it and send it again.
could you email me a copy to look at?

could you email me a copy to look at?

email addy? Its mostly text, not many pictures.

Hehe, it would be a fun project, don't tempt me ;) I would spend more then 15k, b/c i don't like to mess around. Do it once and do it right the first time, no point of not doing it to the best of my abilities.
And its not from just the photos, it's from seeing it at the BMW CR races all season. Its a fast car regardless, we all know. But it can get significantly lighter.
This is what CR is all about though, going fast with such a basic idea...lightweight, big tires, big HP.

Enlighten us to your secret weight reduction skills;).

CF gas tank:)

And Akard, 2175 seems a tad heavy. You should be able to get under 2000 without much more effort.
And no offense intended, but with that HP and weight, that cage is significantly underbuilt for any kind of useful crash protection or chassis torsional rigidity.


How much is that gas tank?

More on the BMW Motorsports catalogue, please!!!

~Preston

Catalog is from BMW Motorsport. You just have to contact the right person and they'll email it to you. But the copy they currently have for wtcc is corrupt, i'm waiting for a working one to be sent.

As for weight reduction...its called tube frame and composites. partial tube frame is allowed in Mod. I've seen e30 m3's under 2k.

That is not a carbon fiber gas tank... That is a carbon fiber cover for a undercar fuel cell. That cover is NOT legal in SCCA or BMW Clubracing as the rules state and approved cell is an FIA FT3 compliant cell, enclosed in steel, aluminum or Marlex....

Ask me how I know, I had to fab up aluminum covers for my cells that were originally cover in carbon fiber. pisses me off....that Scca/bmw club rules are so antiquated...heck these were bmw parts.


[QUOTE=Steve J.]CF gas tank:)

QUOTE]

Oh you guys were asking on the cost....of the undercar fuel cell.. The E36 version is NLA, but it was made for BMW Motorsport by Continental Rubber/Uniroyal

Dunno about the cost for the E46 version, but I do know it's EXPENSIVE!! and u lose some capacity as the foam takes up some volume.

it is very hard to get below 2000 imo with a e30. i know someone with fiberglass doors, fenders, hood, trunk fully gutted and everything possiable trimed down at 2100 area and i dont see many more places to lose some more weight other then a fiberglass roof which is not legal in many places

its Very Doable...you just have to really go deep into the car's structure. Look at what we did to Watts car, thats about 75% of the potential.

i dont doubt it being doable but im just saying its just not as easy as you say it is. it takes some major structual reworking on the e30

Major in my eyes is full tube frame...Just talking on different scales, thats all.

Some call watts car "radical," i call it mediocre for a mod car. Mod class is for MODIFIEDS, they should all be pretty crazy. If you are not willing to spend the money to build a full mod car (composites, big motor, big tires, etc) stay in prepared :)

Major in my eyes is full tube frame...Just talking on different scales, thats all.

Some call watts car "radical," i call it mediocre for a mod car. Mod class is for MODIFIEDS, they should all be pretty crazy. If you are not willing to spend the money to build a full mod car (composites, big motor, big tires, etc) stay in prepared :)
I've always figured that Mod is for raving loonies with silly deep pocket books. (Pleasepleaseplease let me get there someday!)

You can take a bunch of weight out of an E30 M3...We cut the rear firewall out, put a super light aluminum panel in that was probaby 10lbs lighter, cut out the spare tire well, stock fuel tank gone, fuel cell in the tire well. No dash, no HVAC controls, No ABS, list goes on, bumper reinforcement cut down probably 50+ lbs.

Our car was weighed on an calibrated scale at a SCCA national tour, and was 2140 wet no driver.

I've always figured that Mod is for raving loonies with silly deep pocket books. (Pleasepleaseplease let me get there someday!)

I know some people disagree, but I believe building a prepared car to its full limits is as expensive, if potentially not more, than building a modified. That becomes less true in 2006 when you can no longer have remote shocks in prepared, saving you a ton of $$, but it's not that different.

-dave

Catalog is from BMW Motorsport. You just have to contact the right person and they'll email it to you. But the copy they currently have for wtcc is corrupt, i'm waiting for a working one to be sent.

As for weight reduction...its called tube frame and composites. partial tube frame is allowed in Mod. I've seen e30 m3's under 2k.

who exactly would that right person be? ;)

I would agree, with some redeck engineering you can lighten a car...
A prepared car it is harder to find free weight and the speed parts are limited.

Our car is not a show car it has the aagricutural machine look on the inside..

i can see a e30 getting under 2000 if you make it a back half car and tube out the entire rear subframe. id consider a half back car pretty major. Our goal over the winter with my car is 2200 or less and i want to keep the rear diving board so it should be intresting.

i can see a e30 getting under 2000 if you make it a back half car and tube out the entire rear subframe. id consider a half back car pretty major. Our goal over the winter with my car is 2200 or less and i want to keep the rear diving board so it should be intresting.

According to the sometimes ignored rulebook, Oem floor pan has to stay. Oem A pillar, B pillar, and roof have to stay too.
Partial tube is all that is legal in BMW CCA CR Mod class, so "radical" is not an option.

I have no doubt an e30 M3, dry, with somewhere near stock sized wheels, brakes, etc can weigh in very near 2000lbs. However, I'm steadfast in my statement that having 18 x 10 wheels with 305/645-18 slicks and 14" rotors in front & vented e36 M3 rears with 15 gallons of fuel and a fire system at 2175 is NOT overweight! I don't think you know all you think you know about how much lighter a tubed front end would be. Or how flexible you might think my car is. Just because I don't have a famous RRT plate of spaghetti cage, doesn't mean the thing is flexing all over the track!

Furthermore, I'm VERY certain that you have not seen this car racing in its current form, and pretty sure you didn't personally see it at NHIS when it was entered in the first race as a widebody with composite body panels. No offense, but I'm not so certain you know what you are talking about concerning this racecar that you have never driven or raced against. The 18x10 wheels alone add at least 40lbs compared to most e30 cars (likely more), but they surely do enable this "overweight" sled to twist and flex around those corners like it is on a rail.

Well the entire rear trunk area is not the floor pan..I bet you could drop some pounds from clearing out some steel back there:D

Mike, What tire temps are you running on the pirelli 305's?

And don't assume too much:)

If I built an e30 mod car, it would probably be supermod, whats the point of putting in all the effort if you cant have the most optimal setup? IF you are running for overall wins anyways, does not seem like it makes a difference. And if thats the case i'd rather just race a Sports racer (thats what I am planning on for 06 anyways).

I know some people disagree, but I believe building a prepared car to its full limits is as expensive, if potentially not more, than building a modified. That becomes less true in 2006 when you can no longer have remote shocks in prepared, saving you a ton of $$, but it's not that different.

-dave
I think the initial build may be close, but I'll bet you that the running costs will be a lot lower. You may have to do nearly as much engineering in the beginning, but the narrower restrictions ought to prevent you from going quite as hog wild with the consumables.

But that's just me, and I'll freely admit that I'm only starting the process of building my first car. I sure as hell hope I don't get proven badly wrong. :eeps:

Mike, What tire temps are you running on the pirelli 305's?

And don't assume too much:)

If I built an e30 mod car, it would probably be supermod, whats the point of putting in all the effort if you cant have the most optimal setup? IF you are running for overall wins anyways, does not seem like it makes a difference. And if thats the case i'd rather just race a Sports racer (thats what I am planning on for 06 anyways).

Trunk space is full of fuel cell, but otherwise gutted.
Supermod is for v8 powered monsters. Not many 6 bangers gonna make a stand there for long... as witnessed by the folks at Mid-Ohio when David Daniel's monster M5 couldn't stay with the big V8 muscle. My engine only has 6 holes, so I opted for CMod and will likely save tens of thousands of dollars compared to what it would take to be remotely competitive in SuperMod with those V8s. In CMod, my setup can run with the best of them in the corners, and most of them in the straights. It should be reliable and since this is all for a little checkered flag sticker....I think it will "Get R Done!"

As for temps, I guess it depends on which compound and which track. At NHIS, they took a long time to come-in because of the cold temps, so I switched compounds and solved the problem for the enduro and feature race.

At WGI, they were dialed-in and ready to go on lap 1. Within a few degrees across most of the width and just a hair hot on the outside edge of the left front due to lack of camber adjustment without additional modification to the shock tower. Rears were perfect.

The engine in this car is not built yet. ABL Original Parts supplied a totally stock salvage yard bottom-end with a stated 40k miles on it. I will be giving-up torque to several of the big boys until I have the engine freshened-up, but I hope to keep making-up for the deficiency by carrying more speed through the corners.

I have yet to really see a "v8" driven/setup to a fraction of its potential yet. We're talking no rules pretty much, and with the budgets I have seen put into these "weekend toys" they should be running faster then grand am rolex gt with a decent driver of course, thats the big thing in this venue (amatuer clubracing).

Mike, I love the idea you guys have with your car, its what a mod car should be, but its just my opinion, for whatever thats worth, mod cars should be a bit "crazy", so in that sense, 2175 is not much in my eyes, but with the budget you say you have put into it, its a lot of fun for not much into it. Your RV is pretty damn nice though. We're getting our 59' 4 slideout truck ready for MDSPD, its going to be intense.

I have yet to really see a "v8" driven/setup to a fraction of its potential yet. We're talking no rules pretty much, and with the budgets I have seen put into these "weekend toys" they should be running faster then grand am rolex gt with a decent driver of course, thats the big thing in this venue (amatuer clubracing).

Mike, I love the idea you guys have with your car, its what a mod car should be, but its just my opinion, for whatever thats worth, mod cars should be a bit "crazy", so in that sense, 2175 is not much in my eyes, but with the budget you say you have put into it, its a lot of fun for not much into it. Your RV is pretty damn nice though. We're getting our 59' 4 slideout truck ready for MDSPD, its going to be intense.

You are absolutely right about most of the V8s...but they are already whipping the 6 cylinder cars. What will they do when they are maxed-out....or 75% of the way there like you say the Watts sleek widebody monster is prepped? You think you can get an inline 6 to run with them in SM then? I don't. CMod is pretty quick. The 2:04s at WGI before the composites and other improvements is not too shabby is it?

We cut the front oem frame off an e30 car. You might save 10 lbs fabbing custom parts to take its place or heck maybe even 20 pounds for all of the time and effort. I suppose you could take a hole saw and cut hundreds of holes in the stock floor pan and sheet over with Aluminum or composites for a few more pounds. I did not acid dip my $400.00 car, so I'm told there is about 30 more pounds worth of weight savings there at the expense of strength of material. So, another 50-75 lbs is obtainable at some significant cost. Then, I could do away with the headlamps and save 4 lbs, but sacrifice being street legal. Not worth it. To date... it runs at or very near the front of the pack and I'm having a lot of fun. It will never be a Pro car, so I'm not going to spend that much more money chasing a few more stickers as long as I'm having fun enjoying the comraderie of BMW CCA CR!

Mike, What tire temps are you running on the pirelli 305's?

And don't assume too much:)

If I built an e30 mod car, it would probably be supermod, whats the point of putting in all the effort if you cant have the most optimal setup? IF you are running for overall wins anyways, does not seem like it makes a difference. And if thats the case i'd rather just race a Sports racer (thats what I am planning on for 06 anyways).

Someday, when all of the V8 engines are pennies on the dollar to what they cost now...I'll likely put one in an e30 chassis and race in BM or SM too. It will be a hoot. A good friend of mine is building such a beast right now and it WILL be fast.... but I still bet it will weigh more than 2100lbs wet!

Leaving now for TWS...LONG drive. Phone me if you want to continue! Unfortunately, I'll be driving for about 16 hours tonight and tomorrow as I'm typically the crew chief, rig driver, cook, and part-time racer.

Eh, i'd rather get a sports racer, turn faster lap times, without as much effort, and cost significantly less :) Plus they look pretty sweet :) Several events a month available (almost 2 races/month in the region alone), and its 160-170whp and 900lbs, wet, with driver (at full rules limit). I'm psyched.

Poeple have to realize spending $150k to buld a car won't be as fast as spending $75k for a car and 25k for development. :)

Its still going to come down to mostly driver, with everyone being amatuer, and the occasional pro's showing, but they have not shown to potent yet ;) hehe

Won't go into too much depth, b/c its a waste of time, but its AMatuer club racing, have fun, spend what you want, but there will ALWAYS be someone faster who has more money in thier car.

hmmm,
a side exhaust is asving me 60-70 pounds compared to stock.

You can take a bunch of weight out of an E30 M3...We cut the rear firewall out, put a super light aluminum panel in that was probaby 10lbs lighter, cut out the spare tire well, stock fuel tank gone, fuel cell in the tire well. No dash, no HVAC controls, No ABS, list goes on, bumper reinforcement cut down probably 50+ lbs.

Our car was weighed on an calibrated scale at a SCCA national tour, and was 2140 wet no driver.


Cool - HEY - I didn't think they had internet in MISSISSIPPI!! Just kidding, I was born in the Delta and am very surprised to see another true southerner on the board!! Where you at? (hijack complete)

Mike I'm totaly with you, im personaly going with 16in rims and smaller brakes up front with stock rear brakes. I know its against normal methods but im pretty sure I can make it work. Big thing for me though is my lacking of a built engine, I'm only putting down 250 or so to the ground with a very tired s50b30us so i know im not going to win anything with my current set up along with me running r comps and not slicks so for me its all for fun. If I had the time and money I'd consider chopping the stock rear suspension pretty good and stay within the rules. I gotta say for what you have in your car I cant belive your so light. I think with unlimited money I would go with a tubed fron rad support, not a tube front end, back half the car ie:make the entire rear subframe part of the cage allowing alot of the support in the rear of the car to be trimed down signifigantly. The stock floor pan and fire wall cant weigh that much so keeping all of that it shouldent be to bad for the weight total. With some serious cars being made im shocked I dont hear of anyone using a chromoly cage. Having a million bars in the cage def does not help with weight, its all gotta be a compromise if your looking to be as light as possiable

Mike I'm totaly with you, im personaly going with 16in rims and smaller brakes up front with stock rear brakes. I know its against normal methods but im pretty sure I can make it work. Big thing for me though is my lacking of a built engine, I'm only putting down 250 or so to the ground with a very tired s50b30us so i know im not going to win anything with my current set up along with me running r comps and not slicks so for me its all for fun. If I had the time and money I'd consider chopping the stock rear suspension pretty good and stay within the rules. I gotta say for what you have in your car I cant belive your so light. I think with unlimited money I would go with a tubed fron rad support, not a tube front end, back half the car ie:make the entire rear subframe part of the cage allowing alot of the support in the rear of the car to be trimed down signifigantly. The stock floor pan and fire wall cant weigh that much so keeping all of that it shouldent be to bad for the weight total. With some serious cars being made im shocked I dont hear of anyone using a chromoly cage. Having a million bars in the cage def does not help with weight, its all gotta be a compromise if your looking to be as light as possiable


My cage is Chromoly. The frame in front of the shock towers does not weigh nearly as much as many folks think it would from looking at it. Not hardly worth the effort. The stock rad support is very strong and light. The rear of my cage IS tied to the suspension and subframe too. Trunk is totally gutted and then tubed for the fuel cell. Less than 2000lbs wet is virtually unobtainable with the tire/wheel/cell combo and a S50B32 that I want and still be within the guidelines set forth in the rulebook for BMW CCA CR.

email addy? Its mostly text, not many pictures.
odortiz@yahoo.com

Less than 2000lbs wet is virtually unobtainable with the tire/wheel/cell combo and a S50B32 that I want and still be within the guidelines set forth in the rulebook for BMW CCA CR.
Nothing is unobtainable...You just have to go the extra step and take the time to look into where the weight is on your car, and replace it with something lighter, or remove 'dead mass' thats present.

You are taking the wrong approach to this conversation. We're DISCUSSING things you can do to get the car lighter, not stating his car is "overweight." Its just not too common for people on these forums to carry on a conversation and try to come to a useful conclusion...there are more things to be done, lets discuss it and see if we can find something that maybe someone reading has not thought of, you know, be helpful. Not everything has to be badmouthing.

Nothing is unobtainable...You just have to go the extra step and take the time to look into where the weight is on your car, and replace it with something lighter, or remove 'dead mass' thats present.

Are you considering that last part.... within the guidelines set forth by the BMW CCA CR rulebook for Modified to shave another 200 POUNDS?

I'll admit that as much as 80-100 lbs is doable if you want to spend the cash and make the car less highway friendly, but I think that heavier engine, wheels/tires/brakes, 15 gallon fuel cell that is full, and all of the Required oem pieces with cage are going to go over the 2000 lb mark with the lightest composite body panels available attached. Perhaps required parts could be swiss cheese drilled to save some weight at expense of safety, but without cheating I just don't see it happening.

Ok, lets drop it. Agree to disagree. This is nonsense already. Its called being creative, and engineering. People said we could not get the moon...

Ok, lets drop it. Agree to disagree. This is nonsense already. Its called being creative, and engineering. People said we could not get the moon...

Good point. LOTS of folks told me putting 18 x 10 wheels on an e30 was impossible AFTER I was sending photos of the car with them already installed.
I hope I'm not a naysayer myself, but who knows til someone either does it or exhausts ALL resources trying?

There ya go, thats the spirit. All I am after is to push the limits...and it can never be pushed far enough (thats my main point). There can ALWAYS be more done. When/if the time comes and i have the time/resources to build a fun car like that, I'd defintely do it. Would be 55-60k though, thats mostly suspension, chassis, and engine. The labor will mostly be me and whatever people are at whatever location. having the abilities to do everything in house is nice, and the skilled manpower is handy too. :) Plus knowing the right people is always key.

Cool - HEY - I didn't think they had internet in MISSISSIPPI!! Just kidding, I was born in the Delta and am very surprised to see another true southerner on the board!! Where you at? (hijack complete)

Sweet! That makes three of us. Jackson, MS.