After months of pondering, reading, asking questions, spending money and getting a lot of help from the board-- I now can hit full boost at 3400 or so depending on load, circumstances etc.

New exhaust, Profec B, and a lesson on proper wastegate adjustment has turned my machine into a going sideways monster even with sticky new 235's on the back!

So, without naming everyone involved (you know who you are) and sounding like an academy awards speech... I big friggen thanks to all those who have contributed to my seemingly endless amature questions. I've learned a lot more than I knew there was to know. It's all in the details. :)

Thanks fellas. If your ever even near PA, I'll drive hours to buy you a beer.

good stuff! congrats

John tell us what changes did you do just gut the cat or replace the mid section with a resonator.

You are welcome.

Wait till you add water injection there is a increase in power too.

:D

Cool, John, good luck with it! :buttrock

John remember to change the dip switches on the back of the Greddy if you went with a external wastegate.

There are different settings for external and internal.

The front section of the exhaust was not touched. After looking at them my mech declined but then arranged for another guy for me to see to have it done.

I don't think the exhaust did a whole lot. Redoing the wastegate settings from scratch was the trick. My stock wastegate was never fully closing!!!

So I got that set right, and then turned on the Profect and BLAM, I nailed 9 PSI at 3800. Needless to say I had to adjust that. :)

I'm going put aside for an external, and then have a new pipe made back to the AA muffler with the external gate plumbed into it. Next project. :D

Hmm... brings up topic of where to put wastgate.. yours is plumbed from the turbo, yet active provides a place on the manifold. I wonder why they did that? I guess just future planning. I'll pull out the Corky book and read up on it the suggested best approach, I think I remember he said from the turbo also.

Quoted:
I don't think the exhaust did a whole lot. Redoing the wastegate settings from scratch was the trick. My stock wastegate was never fully closing!!!

John what do you mean by don't thing the exhaust did a whole lot. How did you fix the internal wastegate adjust the spring ??

Quoted: I'm going put aside for an external, and then have a new pipe made back to the AA muffler. Next project.

John if you like what you got wait till you do the pipe like mine fron turbo to the rear AA if you do remember with the external wastegate it is a day and night difference:D

Did Willy have a problem with his water injection I missed that post ?

John I upgraded to the 1.0m nozzle from a .78mm that I drilled and had to change the trigger point higher but let me say that the car hauls ass in the upper rpm now better then before.

The motor pulls harder from 5000rpm all the way to 7000rpm. The other day I was doing on run on the highway and from 4th gear from 4000rpm and floored it. The car was pulling so hard from 5000rpm+ I had to look at the boost gauge to see if I was getting boost creep as I never felt the car pull so hard even when I ran 12psi and the boost gaguge was only showing 10.5psi.

Since the motor is running well I'm planning to get the car on the dyno this week and looking for atleast 385hp and torque at the wheels at 11psi.

All my other dyno runs was at the low setting on the Profec and will by doing all runs at the high settings this time.

After feeing the real potential of this car.. I am very very excited now. To think I was running a year this way.

I'm sure the exhaust helped! But the internal flapper was never fully closing. I disconnected the part that goes over the flapper lever, and was able to move the flapper lever another 1/8" until in the the closed position! So I turned the rod end until it was able to slide over the lever in fully closed position and then cranked it until I hit 6 PSI. It was still until 4G+ to hit full boost but then I turned on the Profec and made runs/adjusted it and that got me full boost in the mid-low 3's plus nailing 7 and holding it firm. Thanks Nick for the guidance on the wastegate adjustment. :)

I can't wait until I get the rest of the pipe done!

I followed Willy's thread on his install, and it ended how to hook up to the injector.. there was no publicly posted answer. ;)

>>Since the motor is running well I'm planning to get the car on the dyno this week and looking for atleast 385hp and torque at the wheels at 11psi.

Ummm... I'm speechless. I hope you get it. :buttrock

i finally got my W/A injection installed and working... had a few snags during the way but im using the .6mm nozzle and still playing with the trigger, its at around 3-4psi now but doesnt always come on.. so im going to lower the trigger some more and see what happens.

altho i dont really feel much difference with or without the injection.

Originally posted by Stylin

altho i dont really feel much difference with or without the injection.

Sure is a lot of differences on what people think on this subject.

What system did you get the 1S or the one you map from the injector the 2c. If you got the one that ties into the injector go with the bigger nozzle atleast .8mm to .9mm.


With the 1s the nozzle will flow 100% of the rated value on trigger but if you got the 2c and you match the injector duty cycle then it will be lower. You are not getting max flow. That is why most 2c use dual nozzle.

Willy you should feel a difference. What is your max boost if you are running 8 psi then I would try and trigger it between 4-5psi.


You should wire up a green led in your car to atleast you know when or if it is coming on but will not tell you if the nozzle is plugged.

That what I do and every few days when I remember I check under the hood to make sure the bottle is going down if not then you know you have a problem.

John,
If you have not done it yet, heat wrap manifold and piping before the turbo, use isolation blanket on all piping from air filter to turbo to intercooler to throttle body...and if you can, duct in the intercooler so that the air is forced to go through it.

designengineering, thermotec, good places to start. I would recommend designengineering's radiator relief, it seems to work in my car.

One of the best upgrades you can do is to change the rearend to 2.93. (I suggest 2.79 if you are going for 400+RWHP).

Good luck.:)

Rear end man I having been looking for the past 8 months here for A 2.93 with LSD.

The ones that I can find from a 96+ 328 are all open diff and I dont want to spend $1500.00 for the diff.

I know with the new ratio the car will build max boost in 2nd gear and even more in 1st.

If I can find one cheap I will get it.

Do you think that with such a short run from the air filter to the turbo it is necessary to wrap it too. As the air would not be compressed and the run so short ?

I have seen the pic of your and yours is wrapped all over even the intake manifold is shielded. That is nice.

I used to have the air filter in the engine compartment, now it is located near the intercooler. I never liked the original spot where AA put the filter in my first set up. The piping from the air filter to the turbo was not more than half an inch away from the engine/exhaust manifold. After driving the car around I used to check the air filter/piping and it was hot, I mean very hot. Same thing with the piping from the intercooler to the throttle body. That is why I asked AA to move the air filter outside the engine area and heat wrap/isolate everything.

When you have the air filter in the engine compartment the air that the turbo is pulling in is no longer ambient, even worse it is getting heated in the piping while traveling so close to the engine before being compressed by the turbo. The bigger deal is the piping from intercooler to the throttle body. It gets very hot, the radiator fan blows on it like crazy, I decided to wrap it with heat reflecting material. When I gave the car to AA for the latest set up I gave them a bunch of isolation and heat wrapping material, they did an excellent job isolating everything.

I was very happy to see dyno runs back to back with no drops in power. I am pretty sure the alcohol/water injection is doing its job, but every little thing counts (especially when you are going against the Lambos, Vipers and bikes of this unfair world):)

OZ,

Ah.... heat wrap. Something I can do that actually doesn't cost much. Consider it done, and thanks for naming some brands.

Your right about the ducting, the ends are open and it's easy for the air to go around it.

No diff changes for me for a while. I'm done for big buck spending this year. :az:

The sites I listed have kits for the turbo charger, heat wrap for the exhaust side keeping the heat inside for faster spool and isolating materila for the compressor side to keep it from being heated by the engine. I am pretty sure there is a benefit...:)

Originally posted by M3TurboCa
What system did you get the 1S or the one you map from the injector the 2c. If you got the one that ties into the injector go with the bigger nozzle atleast .8mm to .9mm.


With the 1s the nozzle will flow 100% of the rated value on trigger but if you got the 2c and you match the injector duty cycle then it will be lower. You are not getting max flow. That is why most 2c use dual nozzle.

Willy you should feel a difference. What is your max boost if you are running 8 psi then I would try and trigger it between 4-5psi.


You should wire up a green led in your car to atleast you know when or if it is coming on but will not tell you if the nozzle is plugged.

That what I do and every few days when I remember I check under the hood to make sure the bottle is going down if not then you know you have a problem.

I have the 2c kit wired with the injector... I had the .7mm nozzle in there and just tried the .6mm. I dont have anything bigger than a .7mm here. And noone really had any input as to what I should be using. You really think i should be using a .8 or .9mm? Drill my .5mm nozzle out? Max boost is 6psi and the trigger is at 3-4psi. But it doesnt always spray, but i have a feeling that has to do with the fuel injector/high speed valve. Ive installed the LED when I installed the system.

But even with the 2c kit.. i can only really build boost under WOT so its still like full throttle for the high speed valve anyway right?

But even with the 2c kit.. i can only really build boost under WOT so its still like full throttle for the high speed valve anyway right?

First, Mark, make sure and let me know what yours latest dyno runs show..

Now, Willy, can you explain something to me? What I dont understand is, if the 2C features a connection to your fuel injectors, so that the amound of fluid you spray is related to the duty cycle of your injectors with the idea being that the more fuel you spray, the more of your winjection mixture you spray, I dont understand why as you say, sometimes, its not spraying.

You say youre triggering around 3.5 psi, but that it doesnt always come on. HOw do you know, ie, do you have an LED in the cabin thats supposed to light when the pump is triggered? I dont think you should lower it any more...Even though youre only running a max of 6 psi, 3.5 psi is pretty damn low...Most people feel a bog at this level...But then, again, you do have the 2C system, which at that psi level, should be flowing only a little bit of fluid, so maybe you can leave it where it is.....But remember, the benefit of the fluid will really only come at the upper rpms...In my system, even though I have the 1S, Im triggering at 5 psi, which is pretty much equivalent to 5000 rpms at WOT. That means, Im only using the sytem for the uppermost 2000 rpms. Below 5K, theres no spray at all...And there doesnt need to be...Below 5K rpms, the EGTs arent near high enough to worry about. And, if youre fuel mixture is rich enough through 'conventional' means, than any spraying that you do before you need it to cool your temps and hence suppress knock, will be power lost, due to replacement O2 with winjection fluid. I dont know how much alcohol youre running in your mix, but remember at the 3 or 3.5 psi level your triggering at, if you were running mostly water, you have a real good chance at quenching the spark a bit. Also, if you spray to early, in addition to robbing O2, and quenching the spark, you want your temps to rise a bit...On Turbo cars especially, spraying too early really hurts their ability to spool up and build boost...I dont think thats as big a problem with our cars...But remember why wer're using the system: To reduce heat soak and hang on to power; not necessarily to MAKE power, but to SAVE power. INtercoolers make power; Water injection saves power. While the 2C should allow you to turn on a little earlier because its supposed to meter out the fluid with a small amount down low, and a max amoutn up high, with the fuel injector duty cycle, triggering down low, I dont think, will have any benefit, and may hurt performance.

Rather than triggering even lower, I think we need to find out why its not coming on when you believe it should...Get yourself a mighty vac test kit....Its very easy to test youre turn on pressure by pumping up the system while in the garage, and get a separate hand held ten dollar boostgauge to T in...Then pump it up and check the boost gauge where it finally turns on....You need to check this out first. Dont assume that triggering earlier is the answer...

Keep us up to date with your progress.

If you care about longevity I wouldn't suggest wrapping the turbo manifold - it needs relief. It would be better to apply a thermal coating to the inside and leave the outside alone. Also I've heard of significant improvements in spool with extrude honing a cast iron manifold. - Beau

Ive been tuning with the LED and by the LED this entire time... sometimes I look down and do not see the LED on and Im at WOT near redline in like 1st gear...when i nail out of first gear I rarely see the LED go on. But other times I see it pulsating bright meaning its regulating the valve and working. I really do have to play with it some more and the mityvac is good idea. I know the injection is to save power.... which is why i dont feel anything. :D at times i see the LED just flash a few times telling me its cycling with the injectors. dont u guys just love the wonderful world of water injection. Im acutally running water in some washer fluid coz I ran out washer fluid and had distilled water around. so its a light blue mix now. :) I wasnt planning on lowering the trigger much lower.. just slightly coz i think its at around 4psi now. Want to get it lower to near 3.5psi.

so in the end.. which nozzle do I use?!

Ive been tuning with the LED and by the LED this entire time... sometimes I look down and do not see the LED on and Im at WOT near redline in like 1st gear

Ive got to read up more on how 2C works. what Im guessing happens is that you set the trigger point, just like mine, beneath which nothing happens period...Above the trigger, though, where mine will just spray, and spray its max amount, limited only by the pump and the nozzle size (the 1s is a binary system; its either spraying full out, or not at all), yours is still being tempered by the fuel injector pulse...What I dont know is the relationship between this and the hi speed valve, and the accumulator, if you have one, and the solonoid, required if you have the accumulator. But clearly, in first gear if your at redline at WOT, both conditions are being met...I mean, is it possible to be at redline wot and NOt have the fuel injectors injecting? Plus, under the same condition, you are clearly making over 4 psi, UNLESS, you are having a belt slip problem, and dont know it...As a matter of fact, the pattern of your systems failure, being erratic and occasional, reminds me very much of a slipping belt...after all, it doesnt slip all the time; only sometimes....Since you dont mention boost pressure; just your led, Im assuming you dont have a boost gauge yet? Thats the first thing you need to acquire right away....If your belt was slipping and you had a boost guage, you would know it immediately, and youd knwo what to do. Please consider this as a mandatory piece of equipment when your taking the tuning route youve chosen.

Willy, something must be wrong with your system if it doesn't spray in 1st gear WOT. Check your tap into your fuel injector wire, you may have a loose/partial connection. Did you use a crimp splice or solder? I'd highly recommend soldering the connections and this may help your problem.

I have the 8psi system and I could go all the way up to a 1mm nozzle with only a little dip in torque at the trigger point of 3.5psi. I settled in and am using the 0.8mm nozzle now.

What is the purpose of the HSV (High Speed Valve) in this appicaiton, and why does the 2C which taps into the fuel injector wires require it?

Willy:
Did you change to larger injectors the reason is if you did then the duty cycle would be lower. If that is the case then say your duty cycle is 60 to 70% then you are only going to get 60-70% spray from the nozzle.

I would say the .6mm or .7mm would be a good choice as you are only running 6 psi and trigger it close to 4psi. Not before.

At what rpm in 3rd or 4th gear do you build 4 psi ? First or second there is not that much load to worrry about.

If you are going to run higher boost at a later stage then I would definately go with a larger nozzle. Once you run atleast 9 psi use the 1.0mm with your 2c system and trigger it at 5 psi.

Paul:
If I'm not mistaken the High Speed Valve is what controls the nozzle pulses when it is being activated though the fuel injector signal.

I have a boost guage and havent really checked the max boost recently. I should.. but i dont think there is a problem since the last time I did look a few weeks ago I did see 6psi at redline. But I will check the next time im in the car.

M3TurboCa is right about the highspeed valve and I do have an accumulator

I cripped and spliced the injector wires... soldering will be on the list.

If the trigger isnt triggered.. then it doesnt matter how much the injectors are working since the high speed valve isnt activated. Which is back to the psi setting. which in first gear which runs through pretty quickly may not be building enough boost to trigger it so which is why im thinking to lower the trigger point..( I dont know exactly where it triggers yet)

Im still using stock injectors... and dont know when 4psi comes around in 3rd yet..

Maybe I'll put back in the .7mm jet and see how that goes now.. drop the trigger slightly and see what happens.

I would love to pull more boost now but unfortunately I cant get my hands on any software for the 2.8L. :(

If the trigger isnt triggered.. then it doesnt matter how much the injectors are working since the high speed valve isnt activated

Ok, let me understand something...You have an LED which shows when the pump is activated, correct? And you know that youve set your trigger to around 3.5 psi...And, you have a boost gauge, right? Well, what more do we need to know something's wrong...If your boost gauge goes beyond 3.5 psi, and your led doesnt glow, you have a problem with the trigger....What I dont understand is what would you see on your LED if the trigger point was reached, ie, the manifold pressure switch is turned ON because you have developed enough boost to surpass your trigger set point? Youre LED would glow, correct? If its not glowing at a psi level, determined by your boost gauge, which is beyond the psi level you set it at, then it wouldnt have anything to do with the fuel injector tap, would it? You know how to check the operation of the pump and the signal from the pressure switch right? You just turn the ignition to Position II, and remove one of the 2 leads to the pressure switch...This will immediately trigger your pump...Have you tried this? Does it work this way? If so, then you know the pump is being triggered properly...Do you know for sure you have set the trigger where you think you have? Without a mightyvac, I dont know how youd know for sure, unless you taped the nozzle to your windshield, and plugged up the hole in your discharge tube.

As for first gear triggering, I really dont recall...I usually dont drive that hard in first gear, because WOT means wheel spin all the way to redline...So, if I were you, Id test in second gear instead...There, its plenty easy to build enough boost..I can build 11 psi there with no problem...Lets hope your only problem is that youve set the set point higher than you think!

I dont know exactly where my trigger is.. its tough to see the boost guage, the LED and drive around like a madman near redline. :D Yes the mityvac would be a great help... must get one. I primered the system and see the pump working.. i know u can trigger the boost switch but havent tried it yet. But I know the pump works coz there is always pressure, i hear it come on when i turn the car on, and it does inject water when I see the LED go off. So I think my trigger point is just to high still. I was told the trigger was approx 3psi for every 1/4 turn counter clockwise. Which is SOOOO not true.. I had to turn that thing so much to get a PSI difference. So I was hesitant to turn it much at first. Sometimes I do wish I just gotten the 1s kit coz its much easier to tune and diagnose!

But I know the pump works coz there is always pressure, i hear it come on when i turn the car on

I dont know Willy..It seems each time you answer, you raise more questions than you resolve. :eek: For instance this one..If our pump comes on when you turn the car on, youve got more problems than weve even spoke about! Im sure what youre hearing is the relay, not the pump...The pump shouldnt turn on until its triggered by your manifold pressure switch!

I believe he is referring to the fact that the pressure as well as the accumulator bleeds down overnight. Mine does the same thing every morning - pump turns on and pressurizes the system/fills the accumulator up. This is a 2C type of thing.

Willy, do this: take off the tube leading to your nozzle and tape it to your windshield as Paul suggested. Go down the road in 2nd gear and see where it starts spraying - it should be very consistent. If I remember correctly when I had my 6psi system, 3.5psi isn't until somewhere near 5krpms and 6psi isn't until 6800rpms.

Originally posted by Hot Lips
I believe he is referring to the fact that the pressure as well as the accumulator bleeds down overnight. Mine does the same thing every morning - pump turns on and pressurizes the system/fills the accumulator up. This is a 2C type of thing.

Yup.. the pump comes on to pressurize the system when the car turns on.

I was going to put the nozzle in the windshield as a last resort.. been working off the LED to show the activation.

Water injection is fun isnt it boys! :emo

I'm changing this thread from I'm happy about my setup to I'm happy I haven't messed with water injection. :confused:

ha ha! I was waiting for that :) Suprised it took you so long - annoying when someone bites your thread huh? Oh well, congratulations on your setup anyways. You going to post some plots of that bad boy?

Sorry John.. I just replied to your question about me and the W/A injection. :D

I don't really think John mind us jumping on his post.

I think John got the answers he wanted and we are all here to help others with suggestions and hopefully they are correct.

Willy see if you can get a pressure pump with a gauge to pump and set the trigger switch. I set mine with one at 7 psi.

Let me tell you to try and check it with the boost gauge is hard even with the green led that I have almost beside it. When I'm under boost once it past 5 psi it jump too fast to see where it came on.

I would see if you can adjust it with a pressure pump/gauge for 4 psi.

Mark is right, I want Willy to get his problem solved. :)

Continue as you were people!