A challenge was issued over in the E46 M3 forum that actually could turn out to be interesting.

Link to thread (http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=43010&perpage=25&pagenumber=1)

The betting started shortly after the "Racing from a roll ain't racing... " comment :)

The challenge is this. Given two drivers with good experience and cars in their relative fields that having traveled the same total distance in both environments then Drag Racer will finish with a lower overall time.

The proposal was to run 10 passes (that number may need to be reduced) each at the ¼ mile drag strip and then the same number of runs at an SCCA legal autocross course of about ¼ in length.

We then total the time for all runs (no weighting and with normal scoring for each event) and declare a winner.

Does anyone know of a good place to try such an event between St. Louis and NJ ?

Yes, this could be a lot of fun and very interesting, given the cars and drivers in question. Who wants to watch me get my ass handed to me!!! :D

I think the contest is pretty meaningless unless you have a "spec" car. Unless, of course, you want to allow for the differences in the ablity of the two cars.

So is this a test of drivers or of cars?

I say you find someplace that would rent a manual Miata, or even a manual Mustang would do! They are tough to find, but it would make the challenge truly a determination of driver skill.

Originally posted by BMWRacerITS
So is this a test of drivers or of cars?


Cars. However, I would be all for trying a spec car also for a driver contest. :devillook

Well, this was born out of a car (actually a tranmission) challenge.

Originally, I issued a challenge for Drag Racing, me in 2 cars, 1 new E46 M3 with the SMG tranny, and 1 with the regular 6 spd, same track, same day, same wheels/tires package, at $1 per .001- me stating that I can get the regular tranny M3 down the track faster than I could the SMG, due to my experience at drag racing. And if I was slower than the SMG car, I'd pay $1 per .001 in ET's.

But no one took me up on that challenge.... :D

Well, I'm at a slight disadvantage in that dept, while I have 16 yrs drag racing experience, I have NO Auto-X experience at all. Enigma has some of both...

Originally posted by SilverStreak
Originally, I issued a challenge for Drag Racing, me in 2 cars, 1 new E46 M3 with the SMG tranny, and 1 with the regular 6 spd, same track, same day, same wheels/tires package, at $1 per .001- me stating that I can get the regular tranny M3 down the track faster than I could the SMG, due to my experience at drag racing. And if I was slower than the SMG car, I'd pay $1 per .001 in ET's.

But no one took me up on that challenge.... :D

Yea, It mutated because we all concede that the SMG is not a drag car. It a roadcouse / autoX car. Actually with the right tires you car could be good at both. So the challenge changed....

Dang, if you were all not off on the other side of the country, I'd say come down to Speedring. It just so happens their track is 1/4 mile, and everyone gets the same 6 hp Kart, slicks included.

I don't think you'd find the karts quite as much fun to drag race, though. :) 40 seconds in 10 laps there is possible...sounds like an interesting challenge.

Well, I still think this could prove very interesting and be a lot of fun.

Even if we limit it to 5 laps total at each type (5 laps at the auto-x, 5 laps at the drags). 20 passes altogether will be kinda hard on the cars and take a while, 10 won't be as bad/time consuming...

Um, wouldn't there be some bias if you were the one driving both the SMG and manual at the dragstrip? I don't know exactly how you can screw up an SMG launch, but I'm sure I would figure one out if it was going to benefit me to the tune of $1 per 0.001.

Also, I think the mixed autocross/drag competition will be tough for the drag strip specialist. On the strip a 1 second difference would be a trouncing, but on autocross a 1 second difference would be a much narrower victory. My point being that the drag specialist would tend to win a by a little bit in the drag, but lose by a lot more in the autocross.

Garth

Originally posted by VanGarth
Also, I think the mixed autocross/drag competition will be tough for the drag strip specialist. On the strip a 1 second difference would be a trouncing, but on autocross a 1 second difference would be a much narrower victory. My point being that the drag specialist would tend to win a by a little bit in the drag, but lose by a lot more in the autocross.

Garth

I was wondering how long it would take someone to pick up on that. :clap:

I'll let SilverStreak out of the bet, all he has to do is admit there is at least as much skill involved in roadracing and autocrossing as there is in drag racing.

Actually, It this happens I would like to see it turn into a general get together with track time for all. Our little bet being nothing more than a side note.

This sounds like a very interesting idea.

But clarify this for me. Each driver (the auto-xer and 1/4miler) will run 20 passes, 10 at each venue for a total of 40 passes overall? All this in the same car?

Poor car :D

I'd wager the layout of the course will determine the winner. If the 1/4 miler has never auto-xed before and is put on an extremely technical course, he'll DNF 4 out of 10 runs. If the course is more "friendly", then the 1/4 miler's odds go up.

IMO, on a technical course, say about 50-60 seconds, typical Solo II style, 2nd gear only, a good, experienced auto-xer will put 3-5 seconds on a brand spankin newbie. Same day, same car.

At the end of 10 passes, perhaps this margin will narrow to 2 seconds.

I don't think even Dave can put 3 seconds on a 1/4 mile newbie at a drag strip. Sorry, Dave.. I think you rock, but you'd be fighting a losing battle here.

Don't take this as a challenge, either... I'm not a bad auto-xer, but I'm not in the put-5-seconds on a newbie catagory.:D


-Apex

Nope, I think you guys make some great points. And actually, I've said this before many many times here, Auto-X requires MORE skill than Drag Racing, and the outcome is much more dependent on driver skills in Auto-X. That has never been a question in my mind.

Now, that being said, no offense intended, I do believe a lot of folks think there is very little skill if any involved at drag racing. I'm not pointing fingers at anybody in this discussion, by the way, just a general vibe I get from time to time here and there.

As this discussion in the other forum began pertaining strictly to drag racing (my specialty) I was drawn to the discussion. :D As such, a drag racer, running from a roll is not drag racing. Cuz drag racing is all about the launch.

Anyhow, Van Garth brings up some very good points. First in regards to bias- it honestly never occured to me, perhaps the best way to do that would be to put Enigma in his SMG car, and me in somebody's regular 6 spd E46 M3 and let us duke it out at the strip. <--- I was trying to err of the side of being as fair as possible, some might say my drag racing experience in that scenario is a decisive advantage... :dunno

Also, Van Garth mentions the margin of victory at each type of racing- that had occured to me too, but I wasn't sure how to address it. Perhaps there should be a multiplier # involved, but how can that be arrived at, fairly??? It gets convoluted, at best.

So, I'm not sure where this goes from here, but it sure sounds like we have a bunch of gear-heads/track addicts who love BMWs, so any kind of meet might just be a big hoot and worth doing, regardless.

:)

Drag racing requires skill. Its just a diffrent skill set than the other events. I was just giving grief :)

I don't really know how you make it fair. The 2 second diffrence is a pretty good guess at the 1/4. Now at the autoX anything can happen. One spin can add 10 seconds to your run easily.

The cars would be reasonably evenly matched at both events IF SilverStreak didn't bring the drag radials and I didn't bring the race rubber. What can you do in the 1/4 in that car on your street tires?

We could gibe Byran one lap in each car to set a target time at the autoX and see who can get closer. :12:

So how about this. To save wear and tear only 4 1/4 runs. Then take 6 autoX runs and drop the worst two scores for each. I am pretty consistant any usually only vary by less than 1.5s at an event so this should give you a little more room to work.

If I give up the race tires I am guessing that will add 1.5s to my times. I will know much more at the end of the month when I do the test & tune here. I am planning to leave the streets on for the first part of the day and then switch so I should have a good idea what the advantage is for them.

I suspect if you leave the DRs behind you will suffer less.

You can also always put me in your car for the autoX :) Learning a new car might even it up a bit.

I agree that all else being equal a 5 second margin in the autoX may be reasonable. It depends on how fast you learn and how many runs we make. If we stayed with 10 runs that margin would drop.

Without DR's, I'm guestimating low 12's for my car on a good day. That 11.7 came at 36 degrees outside, dry day, sea level track (Atco).

In June in 82 degree heat and humidity, the best I could manage was an 11.95 at 114.1 with a 1.72 60'. That was with my DR's, though....

Actually digging through our local results on a ~40 second course it looks more like 5-10 seconds diffrence between brand spanking new drivers and those with a good deal of practice.

Even among multi-year vets its can still be 3+ seconds. Earlier this year we had a 10+ time national champ in town to teach a driving school. We borrowed a Z06 and set the FTD by close to 3 seconds. He had never driven that car before! :buttrock The owner of the car even had several years of experience and I don't think he got within 3 seconds.

Wow. 10 seconds is an ass-stomping of biblical order. Are these times for new drivers in stockers on street tires vs. vets on Hoosiers and coil-overs?

I have no trouble believing the spread even amoungst vets and truely gifted drivers, though. I've been doing Solo II going on 4 years and would be happy to run 3-2 seconds behind a national champ.

Well.. maybe not HAPPY. But I'll take it.


-Apex

Originally posted by LateApex
Wow. 10 seconds is an ass-stomping of biblical order. Are these times for new drivers in stockers on street tires vs. vets on Hoosiers and coil-overs?


That day there were two drivers, both fairly new, in the same M car. One was ~8 seconds faster than the other. That same day a BStock Honda was anothe ~3.5 seconds faster or so than the better of the two.

10 Second margins are uncommon though. 3-5 is much more typical for a first timer within a given car class.

Yep, that's why I was suggesting a multiplier of sorts. Or just running for the heck of it. Or, put me in someone 6 spd E46 M3 that I've never driven before and see if I can beat Enigma's SMG at the drag strip... :devillook

Well either way, it sounds like a hoot.

So.. when's this happening? :D


-Apex

I'll make the commute real easy for Silver Streak. Raceway Park is a drag strip, and they put on a ton of autox's. You would have to go on an Import day when they are autoxing and running the strip all at the same time.

I have to stick with my fellow drag racer on this one. I personally wouldn't take up SS on this bet. I've been drag racing for 12 years and autoxing off and on for about four. Drag skills are learned right in the first 60 feet. It's all done with the gas and clutch. How do you get an optimal launch with SMG? Can it be power braked?

My very first autox, I thought for sure I would get my ass handed to me. At the time, I had a 94 Cobra. Figured my drag skills wouldn't come into play. I was wrong. Being able to launch out of the hole and having good throttle control all around the course is what got me through. Throttle control is what gets SS those ridiculously low short times. My lines sucked and I was braking way to early. Pushed the car thru most of the corners, too. My class was ESP. Lots of Mustangs with more work then mine and an old school M5 that was owned by a driving instructor. I took the class win!!! Thought for sure it was a fluke. Went out again two weeks later and won my class again.

My assumption is since SS and I have the same drag racing background, it will come into play for him like it did me. We drag racers have a tendency to be more aggressive then trying to be smooth. I just don't think he'll take a 3-5 second whooping out on the autox course.

YMMV, Good Luck

Thanks man! :)

UNVMYM3,

I think you have been picked as official event handicapper. What do you think would be a fair multiplier given the cars and drivers?

Enigma,

I'm still confused as to what cars you guys plan on running. If you stick with the original bet, 2 E46 M3's are needed. For autoxing, it sounds more like a driver challenge, so anything can be used.

6spd vs. SMG: I think a 3 tenth spread should be used. A typical E46 is generally a low 13 second car. I'm thinking on average 13.30's. SS is saying he can make it happen all in the launch. So if Enigma runs 13.30, Dave has to earn his cash and put the 6spd in the twelves to cover that 3 tenth spread. Can't cover the 3 tenths, he loses. Only came up with that 3 tenths because I believe SS is for sure better down the strip then Enigma. That SMG car has to be easier to launch, also.

Autox course: I've also heard about the same 3-5 seconds, all things being equal. Both drivers in the same car with a 3 second spread. If Enigma runs 42 seconds and SS comes in at 45 or better, SS takes the win.

5 runs in each discipline. Throw out highest and lowest. Average the other 3 out.

Going with the rule of 3's. Not very scientific, but it gives a handicap to the pro in they're respective discipline. I'm sure there is a ton of flaws in my thinking, so if anyone has some suggestions, let's here them.

Ok, but are we talking about 2 E46 M3's or my Z3 and Enigma's M3??? This thing has changed about 14 times now... :D

I'll be bold and say this, with 2 E46 M3's, 1 SMG (Enigma's) and 1 regular 6 spd, the rags (MT, C&D, R&T) have all noted a 2 tenth difference in 0-60 and 1/4 miles, with the SMG being slower.

Now that is my original contention in that other thread, One everyone seems to agree with, by the way. I'll be bold and say I can get more like 5 tenths in the 1/4 mile <-- in that scenario, cuz I'm not afraid of the clutch... :evil2 But if the bet is 3 tenths, and that's agreeable to all involved, so be it. :)

Now, as far as Auto-X is concerned, I've neevr done it, so if we're running the 2 E46 M3's again for that part, I'll have to trust you guys' judgement about the appropriate handicapping.

With the above scenarios, we have to find someone willing to donate me an E46 M3 6 spd, who's gonna let me run it at the strip and auto-x-- a generous soul, one might say...

Now if my Z3 works it's way into the mix, what kind of handicapping are we talking about? And what will performing better at the auto-x, an E46 M3 or a Z3 3.0??? I'm asking cuz I really don't know. I know an M Coupe or an E36 M3 will rule at the auto-x, but I've heard the E46 M3 has lost some of that edge due to the bulk and suspension set up, etc...??? :dunno

SS

I have no concept how to figure out what's fair with totally different cars, whether it is the strip or autoxing.

2 E46 M3's is the fairest and easiest way to figure it all out and I was just using arbitrary #'s at that. You and Enigma have to decide on the exact bet and go from there.

Good Luck

Well, therein lies the problem. I have no Auto-X experience, but I have more drag racing experience than Enigma.

That being said to measure driver, you need 2 identical cars, same tranny and all. If we're trying to measure cars, we need the same driver in 2 cars all the same except tranny (my original proposition)....

No, you need 2 M3's, but one could be stick and one could be SMG. You feel confident in your ability to hustle down the strip, stick with the original proposition. In the autox, tranny isn't going to make much of a difference. Once you hit 2nd gear, whether SMG or stick, your going to stay there. Max you'll hit in the autox is like 60-65, and that's a huge autox course. In slower corners, the torque will pull you out, so no need to downshift to 1st. That's been my personal experience. Guess it all depends on who designs the autox course.

C YA

Any generous donors, out there? :evil2

If we were doing a 1/4 mile in two E46 M3s for SMG vs 6spd I would bet I find myself short about 0.5s in the ET. Much of that would depend on the surface conditions and tempertaure. I cannot adjust as well to those in an SMG car. :(

If it was my car vs his I think a 2.0s margin is more likely given SS his DRs, or ~1.5s on streets.

At the autoX. A stock E46 M3 vs what I have would not be fair. Its has a near full suspension kit now. No real help at the 1/4 but a big help here. I would handicap this 1.5 seconds if both cars had streets, 3.0 if I had my stickies.

I would put the Z3 vs SMG autoX handicap at 2.2 seconds streets or 3.7 seconds with my stickies.

Now we just need a good fun meet for everyone half way between MO and NJ. :D

Sounds like fun, do those handicaps sound fair to everyone?

Enigma, I didn't realize you had suspension mods too, must be a pretty cool car to drive at the auto-x! :buttrock

By the way, how would an E46 M3 and a Z3 3.0, stock for stock, match up at the auto-x? I really don't know, that's why I'm asking... :dunno

At a national course I would expect the E46 M3 to be just over a second faster than the Z3 3.0. I would figure about one second per 50 seconds of course or so.

The catch is a Z3 is a much more tricky car to drive because it has the old E30 semi-trailing arm rear suspension. The newer E36 and E46 cars have a multi-link rear which makes them much more predictable at the autocross. In your car you would have to be very precise with the gas exiting turns or you will be driving out all the windows but the windshield.

Right now my car is prepped with:
Now:
solid TA bushings.
Tubular adjustable lower control arms with rod ends.
Strut braces front and back.
SSR Comp wheels 9.5x18 with 256/35-18 Kumo Escta V700s

On a truck somewhere heading here. :)
DA Koni Coilovers front
SA Koni's rear
Springs #450 front & #500 rear
GC Racing swabars.
Rear ride height adjusters.
Front Camber plates.

Next on the list:
12lbs flywheel & light clutch
Lightweight seats
Lightweight exhaust
Evosport Pulleys

Nice mods, man! :alright

So maybe cuz I'm a gimp at the auto-x, having never done it, the handicap is 3 seconds? Or will my extra power over the normal Z3 3.0 help (or hurt :dunno) my runs...??

Your car is going to be both faster and much harder to drive than a stock Z3 at an event. You would be pretty close to even with a stock E46 M3. Catch is that isn't going to be an easy car to lear in and it would be your first event.

I have had two friends who had never competed before go to an event do fairly well. They were only about 2 seconds off the pace for their class.

On the other hand there are some that are now on their 10 event and still are 4+ seconds off a good time for their car. It can go both ways.

I am tossing you in the first category because I really doubt you are afraid of the car and you must have some skills already to get your 1/4 times. It would just be a matter of how fast you could learn the proper line and how to ballance all that power with turning.

We have events here Sep 1st, Oct 6th and Oct 20th if you are in the area.

Thanks. I doubt I'll be down your way this Fall. But I still think handicaps and bets aside, it would be a lot of fun to run both of our cars at both events and just hang out and have fun, etc...

Maybe somewhere in between NJ and MO?

There are a few autoX events in OH. That seems reasonably close to the middle. I don't know about 1/4 though.

Anyone?? Maybe parts of VA too??

Dang, I'm too far away to be in the loop for this.

Y'all make sure to tape this :D


-Apex