http://www.big-boys.com/articles/carflip2.html

The description is father and son test out new Porsche and dad looses control. But clearly it is a HPDE and the "son" is an instructor.

Watch the instructor's head/helmet. The roof caved in to where it used to be. If he didn't duck towards the center (luckily had enough slack to do so), he would have become quickly a few inches shorter. 3pt belts are designed to make you go towards the center of the car so in an accident, you and your instructor are protected.....in each other arms at the center of the automobile. 4pts strap you in and keep you upright. Either run a roll bar with your harnesses, and 5+pts with anti-submarine belts are becoming the new standard......or run your stock belts with CG lock and no roll bar. It's not something worth jeopardizing your life over.

3pt belts are designed to make you go towards the center of the car so in an accident, you and your instructor are protected.....in each other arms at the center of the automobile.
In a crash, the 3pts are designed to make you turn toward the outside of the car away from other passengers.

I'm not sure what the video proves. As far as the passenger ducking his head, do you really think he was in control of his motor skills during a rollover? And no part of the roof seemed to collapse enough to bother either occupant. They had race shells and harnesses without a rollbar...I'm against that but in this case the passengers were apparently fine.

Okay, sorry. I just got off here somewhere you'd both end up at the center of the car. Either way, towards the outside or the center of the car, you have more freedom to duck out of the way with a belt just over one shoulder.

Stock three-point belts at least allow the body to be thrown to the side or forced downward into the seat in the event of a rollover. Look at this picture for example. The driver and instructor both survived wearing stock belts......

You gotta decide whether the harnesses are worth the extra safety hazard. I have seen E36's rolled. In most all cases, the entire roof collapses. With harnesses, your body will be held upright and you will most likely be seriously injured/killed. In all cases of rolled cars that I have seen, the passenger and driver were wearing stock belts and their bodies were pushed down. They all escaped with minor injuries.

The video seems to me that if the passenger was held more rigid without any movement he wouldn't have been able to duck out of the way of the collapsing roof at all. To my eyes, if he was snug in his harnesses, his spine would be a little shorter right now.

If you don't see the same.....*shrug* But it was clear enough reminder to me how rigid and upright + collapsing roof = bad.

I have had first hand experience with a low speed rollover in my M Roadster on the track. I only had the OEM rollhoops and was wearing the OEM 3-point belts. As the car began to roll I increased my grip on the steering wheel and held on for dear life as I pulled my head and upper body down towards the center console. Fortunately for me it was just a half roll and I came to rest upsdie down immediately with no sliding. My helmet was pushed into the muddy ground. There is absolutely no doubt that I would have been killed or paralyzed if I had been wearing a harness as my helmeted head projects above the OEM rollhoops. I now have 'The Swingset' which projects high above my head.

why do none of the common aftermarket seats have slats in them for the antisub belts?

B

mine do (a price option). and SRD's (now Speeds) are pretty common. although I'd get a seat back brace if I go rollbar + 6pt harness with it.

Anyone else notice that thats totally not a porsche... 2 spoked steering wheel, and look at that dash...

Yeah, that doesn't look like any Porsche I've ever came across.

People, don't be stupid. And by that I mean, don't use harnesses without proper rollover protection. If you must, use a CG-lock, but the best thing to have would be a roll bar/cage with harnesses (6-pts, ideally) and race seats. My car is a daily driver, yet it still has a rollbar, harnesses, and race seats.

Actually the scariest part of that video to me is the instructor almost grinding his fingers off my bracing his hands against the room when the sunroof is exposing the pavement grinding past below.

Actually the scariest part of that video to me is the instructor almost grinding his fingers off my bracing his hands against the room when the sunroof is exposing the pavement grinding past below. ouch. That brings a very vivid image to my mind. :eek:

So what options are there for us that have street cars, want to be able to have passengers(both front and rear...coupe), daily driver, and 4+ point harnesses for DE days?

So what options are there for us that have street cars, want to be able to have passengers(both front and rear...coupe), daily driver, and 4+ point harnesses for DE days? Best option: two different cars.

The passengers-in-front-and-rear part is the only problem. Not for me, though - I like just having two seats.

HAHA, I cant afford another car. I really dont want to ditch my rear seat, however it doesnt get used very often.

People, don't be stupid. And by that I mean, don't use harnesses without proper rollover protection.Can you or anyone else point me to an actual report of somebody being significantly injured by using a harness in a rollover? I see these broad proclamations of impending doom, but nobody seems to have ANY real evidence that this is a real problem. And I'm talking actual reports of injury, not "hey did you see the roof deflect?"

All this video seems to prove is that if you are driving some kind of cheeseball car, not a Porsche, with a big open sunroof, with race shells, harnesses and NO rollover protection, there's no problem. Of course that's an oversimplification, but that's what the video actually shows.

If you must, use a CG-lock, but the best thing to have would be a roll bar/cage with harnesses (6-pts, ideally) and race seats. My car is a daily driver, yet it still has a rollbar, harnesses, and race seats.We are all not as fortunate to be able to convert our 5 seat cars into 2 seaters. If I only needed two seats I'd be driving a C6. No doubt your setup is safest, but not practical for many of us.

if you don't have a dedicated track car, you shouldn't be pushing it to the point that you need a harness. you should not push it to the point that there is even a remote chance of one wheel off.

when i cinch down my 6pt harness, i am strapped in so tight i can barely breath and that IS the correct way to cinch yourself in. when you are strapped in tight/correctly, you have no way of ducking your head anywhere especially if you wear a HANS like i do. so in a roll over, the only thing protecting you will be the roll cage or a roll bar.

sure, there are ppl with harnesses and no roll bars in major roll overs and survived. but why would you tempt fate? i am not saying my setup is fool proof. but i certainly will do what i can to increase my protection.

if you don't have a dedicated track car, you shouldn't be pushing it to the point that you need a harness.

;)

yeah, people don't seem to find the flawed logic behind "I want to install harnesses in my daily driver.....yet I don't want to mess with a rollbar in it"

The other thing is that a 4 point harness will never be able to get you as tightly strapped in as a 5 or 6 point harness. I have sat in several cars with proper harnesses and I can never get my 4 point harness that snug simply because of the way its designed. The 4 point harnesses are useful for keeping me in my seat so I don't have to pay so much attention to what my body is doing in a turn which I feel will help me avoid a situation in which my car may roll. And, because of the difference in the 4 point system from a 5 or 6 point system, I feel that my head is able to move to the side appropriately were I to be in a roll-over situation. It's not the perfect situation, but for those of us that use our daily drivers on the track it is simply not possible to put a roll cage in our cars. Until someone can give real evidence that using a 4 point system is significantly more dangerous than a regular seatbelt, I'm going to continue using my 4-point harnesses

Until someone can give real evidence that using a 4 point system is significantly more dangerous than a regular seatbelt, I'm going to continue using my 4-point harnesses
http://opentracking.com/important_belt_info.htm

The total stopping distance of a
meter then gives the deceleration force on the car at around 40 g. -
Now we know from the black box crash recorders in Indy cars that drivers
can ride out 40 g crashes with no more than bruising (the limit of human
tolerance is being approached at about 50 g). Why not in David’s case?

The first reason is that David “submarined”. Basically, he slid partly
underneath the lap belt. As it rode up his stomach to his chest it
bruised his spleen, then it went up and broke some ribs, which in turn
punctured a lung. His feet were forced down to the footwell, with
forces being directly transferred into a collection of vulnerable small
bones and joints.

Hanging on to the wheel, his arm was broken as he instinctively tried to
stop himself going forward. This was not enough to stop him being
violently flexed over the lap belt so far that he hit his helmet hard on
the steering wheel, bending the rim about 30 degrees forward. The
impact was enough to break a bone in his neck, just as it was at full
stretch.

Because problems with the harness and its installation and use could
have contributed to these injuries, we studied it carefully. It was a
six-point belt, with two-inch webbing. The shoulder belts had been
routed over a transverse chassis rail behind his shoulders and down to a
lower rail at the bottom of the car. The crotch straps were joined at a
central single latch plate. David confirmed that they were quite loose,
and could be clipped into the buckle very easily.

The submarining happened because there was little to stop it. Crotch
straps are there for two reasons. Not only do they have a direct effect
in preventing sliding underneath the lap belt, they also stabilize the
whole system. Unlike the tree-point belts in a passenger car, the
buckle of a race harness is in the center. This means as soon as the
shoulder belts are loaded, they pull the lap belt upwards and the lower
part of the body tries to shoot underneath. This killed Jochen Rindt,
who told me in 1969 that although he had come to accept a harness in the
Lotus, he would never wear crotch straps. In his crash at Monza his lap
belt ended up near his neck, rupturing his liver on the way. Australian
child car seats, which also have central buckles, have crotch straps for
exactly the same reason.

The excessive flexion of the upper part of David’s body started when he
finally got held up by the loose crotch straps, by which time his feet
were mashed in the footwell. The flexion was allowed by the
geometrically loosened shoulder belts and increased by the stretching
allowed by the long length of the straps.

take a look at this thread. The guy was obviously a dumbass, but that's not the point. He was wearing a harness during a very hard crash into a phone pole/tree and survived well enough to get out of the car's window under his own power. In a 3-point harness who knows how far he would have moved over into the passenger side. Yes, it's not a rollover, but non-rollover crashes are the most common kind.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2216487

In a stock seat, with 4-point clip ins, you simply cannot get it as tight as you can in a rigid race shell with 5 or 6 point harnesses. The seat flexes and there is a limit to how tight you can adjust the shoulder straps before the lap belt begins to ride up on your hips, a definite no-no. There is really no question that a properly adjusted 4-point belt with the asm cartridge is safer than a 3-point in a non-rollover crash.

The asm cartridge was designed by Schroth to prevent submarining. THere is a video on the Schroth website showing how it works in a crash test. I agree that without such a device, 4-point belts are fairly dangerous. In addition, the Schroth clip-ins utilize the stock belt tensioner, which tightens the lap belt in a crash, which should also reduce submarining.

mine do (a price option). and SRD's (now Speeds) are pretty common. although I'd get a seat back brace if I go rollbar + 6pt harness with it.

a seatback brace should be a given, I can't imagine sliding backwards into something hard and having to wonder if the seat back is going to hold up.

The antisub belts have to be at a certain angle with regards to the driver in order to do their job right, but you see a bunch of people wrapping them around the front of their seats.

duh.

rwh11385, Thank you for the article, but I don't think that it shows that a regular 3-point seatbelt is any more safe than a 4-point harness. I completely agree that a 5 or 6 point system is ideal and if you have that type of system, it must be used correctly. But my question is if a 4-point system is inherently more dangerous than a regular seatbelt. With a regular seatbelt, you will still have the submarining issue to the point where the pretensioner of the system can hold you. As was said in a previous post, the Schroth 4 point harness utilizes the car's pretensioner system to help minimize submarining to be comparable to a regular seatbelt so why would it be any less safe than a regular seatbelt?

a seatback brace should be a given, I can't imagine sliding backwards into something hard and having to wonder if the seat back is going to hold up.

The antisub belts have to be at a certain angle with regards to the driver in order to do their job right, but you see a bunch of people wrapping them around the front of their seats.

duh.

"should be a given....." some people think that a rollbar should be a given for harnesses, yet the presence of debates about the topic mean that not everyone agrees

A local person I'm trying to convince out of harnesses on his street C5 (no rollbar, nor plans on it) said he was getting a 6 point harness and "sitting on the anti-sub belts" :confused


Now that I found the information that was new to me, it's no wonder why NASA has mandated 5+pt harnesses now. And with reading Schroth's page saying why 5+pts should not be used, why not just make it 6pt?

http://www.schroth.com/installation-instructions/en/03_anchorage_locations_and_geometries.htm


Profi 5-point models

Anti-submarining strap routing in any seating position must follow the tangential touching of the occupant’s chest and groin. Such routing is a compromise to help reducing the risk of crotch and groin injuries during a frontal impact. 5-point racing harnesses are provide lesser safety, proven by computer simulation, sled testing and in real word accidents,. Therefore SCHROTH strongly recommends the use of 6-point racing harnesses only.

rwh11385, Thank you for the article, but I don't think that it shows that a regular 3-point seatbelt is any more safe than a 4-point harness. I completely agree that a 5 or 6 point system is ideal and if you have that type of system, it must be used correctly. But my question is if a 4-point system is inherently more dangerous than a regular seatbelt. With a regular seatbelt, you will still have the submarining issue to the point where the pretensioner of the system can hold you. As was said in a previous post, the Schroth 4 point harness utilizes the car's pretensioner system to help minimize submarining to be comparable to a regular seatbelt so why would it be any less safe than a regular seatbelt?

We had a guy from Schroth speak at one of our chapter meetings last year and it was eye opening. Alot of the discussion was on anchor points and how people typically mess up their own installations by using bad angles, pinching belts, etc... The Schroths 4 pts have an expansion section in them (a little black plastic piece that encloses more belt material), so they allow upper body rotation to avoid the submarining by the same mechanism as the 3 pt. He showed some test sled videos, and it makes you want to go full rollcage, 6 pt harness in a racing seat with Hans just in case - and I thought I already had a healthy respect for concrete walls.

Gary

The Schroths 4 pts have an expansion section in them (a little black plastic piece that encloses more belt material), so they allow upper body rotation to avoid the submarining by the same mechanism as the 3 pt. that's the asm cartridge I referred to in my post.

He showed some test sled videos, Those are on the Schroth website as well.

But my question is if a 4-point system is inherently more dangerous than a regular seatbelt. With a regular seatbelt, you will still have the submarining issue to the point where the pretensioner of the system can hold you. actually, a 3-point belt is pretty good at avoiding submarining because as the shoulders move forward, the shoulder belt pulls on the lap belt, which due to its configuration simply tightens around the lap. Give your shoulder belt a hard tug and you'll see what I mean.

In contrast, with a 4-point belt, the shoulder belts' attachment points to the lap belt will pull up on the lap belt as the shoulders move forward against the shoulder belts. You can see this too if you strap into the 4-point and push forward on the shoulder belts. This is why it's critical to have the asm cartridge, to counteract this.

As was said in a previous post, the Schroth 4 point harness utilizes the car's pretensioner system to help minimize submarining to be comparable to a regular seatbelt so why would it be any less safe than a regular seatbelt?Just to clarify, I think only the vehicle-specific clip-ins use the stock pretensioner. But now that I think about it, I'm really not sure, as I've never installed the bolt-in kind. Anybody know for sure?

In a 3-point, the pretensioner tightens the whole system, and as I said before, your shoulders moving forward should further tighten the lap belt. But then again, not all accidents are head on, so that lap-belt tightening shoulder motion is not always present, an inherent downside to 3-points.

On the other hand, on a 4-point belt the pretensioner is going to really crank down the lap belt while having little effect on the shoulder belts. In theory, a 4-point should therefore hold you in much better in non-head-on crash than a 3-point, as the lap belt will always be very tight no matter the crash direction, and your shoulders will stay put as well.

The quotes below describe a crotch belt system I don't think I'm aware of. I have been running a five point system from simpson for a while thinking it was adequate. I only have one crotch belt, and it comes straight up from teh floor, too the circular latch mechanism.

for convience, I have swapped the latch mechanism to be mounted on the croch belt, WAY way easier to get in and out, and flip it down and off the seat. Sears sells latex tubing also to hold the side belts up and out of the tall sides of the recaro spg for ease of entry..but now I'm wondering if there is a better setup for the anti sub belt.

Gone with HANS and the head side protectors of the spg, and feel much safer with resepct to head leaving the car, and hitting somethign outside the car.

Any photos of these d rings, or how he means to have it done properly?

Alex. Lipowich
************

To get the right geometry the crotch straps must be widely separated as
they approach the lap belt, just like a parachute harness. Easily the
best way to do this is to take them up through D-rings on the lap
belts. Every Formula One car has this kink of system. Taking the twin
crotch straps (or, worse, a single one) via a single latch plate to the
bottom of the buckle is a compromise aimed at cutting cost and adding
convenience, mainly for Sedan cars.

Only a few race harnesses comply with my criteria: three-inch webbing,
D-ring crotch straps, a central rotary buckle of course, and details
such as spring-loaded anti-slip adjusting buckles. They include the
following, and I readily concede there may be more I don’t know about:
• Willans 3" Silverstone 6;
• TRW/Sabelt 3" Professional 6-Point;
• Stand 21 STH-36SS 3";
• Simpson 3" 6-point.

Cheaper dual crotch straps use a single piece of webbing that slides through the bracket on the clip in point ("V" type). Better ones use a bracket that uses separate webbing for each side, and spreads them apart ("T" type). Here's a webiste that shows the difference.

http://www.teammiata.com/mall/Willans-harness.asp

Below is a diagram of the T-type, on the Schroth Profi HANS, with a bracket that spaces the crotch straps. Note that this harness is 3 inch, except on top where it is 2-inch to better fit on the HANS.

http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/imgView.php?img=ximg%2F1579%2Fs46105.jpg

Here is a link to the Willans harness he refers to, it's kind of hard to see in the photo how it hooks in, but it does appear to be different.

http://www.curpiermotorsport.com/xcart/catalog/Willans-Silverstone-6-Single-Seater-Harness-p-136.html

>>for convience, I have swapped the latch mechanism to be mounted on the croch belt, WAY way easier to get in and out, and flip it down and off the seat.<<

Yea I had that setup in my previous Por-sha 944 & loved it. When I bought my new set of Simpson 6 points for the M3 I was disappointed the quick release was on the inner lap belt. How did you swap the mechanism to the crotch belt? I just looked at mine & it doesnt seem like it can be taken apart?

>>Sears sells latex tubing also to hold the side belts up and out of the tall sides of the recaro spg for ease of entry<<

Sears & latex? What department do you find that in, lingerie? :) Seriuosly tho, any pics you can post of that setup and how/where they're mounted? I've seen pics of a couple racecars with bungee cords attached. But no detail on how they attached.

that Miata installation link showed the dual antisub belt mounting with the clips at the front of the seats. I thought that the angle for those lower belts was pretty important, and that running them over the front of the seat was a no-no

:confused

I do not know how incorporate a photo into my post here.

Sears hardware store in my area has a department in the back where you can buy all sorts of hoses, plastic, rubber, whatever off of small spools. One of them is a simple yellowish latex tubing, similar to what I see for foley catheters (yuch), or tourniquets too in the hospital. Pretty darn cheap. I run a loop of it through the clip end, down to the seat bottom and put enough tension on it that it snaps the clip up and out to the side of the seat, so when I sit down, I'm not ON it.

With respect to re-building the simpson belts to have the quick release on the crotch strap, I should note that I'm using a single crotch strap, and that I had to remove the simpson sticker. Underneath were 4 allen countersunk bolts that hold the quick release top and bottom together. Unbolting it let me look at the inner mechanism, and it was pretty clear how to rotate, and re-adjust it so that the permanently bound up spot was the one opposite the shoulders (crotch), not adjacent as in a lap belt. Without removing the sticker, its not immediately obvious that this is how it comes apart.

I am absolutely sure you're NOT supposed to do this, but I don't think I've created a safety risk. I do not advocate that you do this, nor promise that its safe... I know I take a risk doing so. But its very convienent for me.

Thanks for someone posting the willans site... its still not very clear what the D rings are, or how they are better etc...

Alex Lipowich

Thanks for someone posting the willans site... its still not very clear what the D rings are, or how they are better etc...
Alex Lipowich

From the description, it seems like he is talking about the 6-points that have a loop at the end of each crotch strap, and each lap belt is passed through the loop on the respective crotch belt before clipping in.
I really like this design, as it reminds me of a climbing harness, which I've personally confirmed the saftey of many times.:)
An example from the Schroth site:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v502/matty_92/6-point.jpg

On another note: Say you have the whole shebang, as far as a street car is concerned anyway: racing bucket, rollbar, and 6-point. Without a HANS, would you think it better to be wearing a tight 6-point or the stock 3-point in a collision?
I've been looking into basilar skull fracture a bit, and it seems to me that with a 6-point stopping your body immediately, you'd better have a HANS to stop your head as well. Without the HANS, the extra impulse provided by a stock 3-point seems like the better option to save your neck.

on a car w/ an airbag, wouldn't the airbag kinda hold the head from extending further thus preventing overstretching of the neck?

on a car w/ an airbag, wouldn't the airbag kinda hold the head from extending further thus preventing overstretching of the neck?
Actually, I think the airbag is yet another vote against wearing a 6-point on the street.
As I understand it, the airbag is designed to meet you halfway, betting on you wearing a slightly uncoiled 3-point and moving outward towards it.
With a 6-point, you would be stopped long before the airbag had planned, so airbag force that would have gone into stopping your foward-moving body instead goes into punching you in the head.

This is all just my best guess, if anyone knows more please step in.

If you are posting in this thread and haven't rolled a car before then just stop posting. The forces in a rollover are absolutely amazing. Quite possibly the coolest feeling I've ever felt FWIW. That was a very easy rollover the car in that vid took.


I rolled my 318 at about 70 MPH. I had stock belts on. The ROOF pushed by head and body out of the way and to the side. I'd be dead with harnesses. I had minor head injuries and a huge bruise directly on top of my head from the roof hitting me.

Actually, I think the airbag is yet another vote against wearing a 6-point on the street.As I understand it, the airbag is designed to meet you halfway, betting on you wearing a slightly uncoiled 3-point and moving outward towards it. With a 6-point, you would be stopped long before the airbag had planned, so airbag force that would have gone into stopping your foward-moving body instead goes into punching you in the head. This is all just my best guess, if anyone knows more please step in.

I doubt anyone has done any significant testing on this, so nobody is really going to be able to say for sure. If you goto the OGRacing website and watch the video, "Why You Need A HANS Device," you'll see some very interesting crash test video done with the dummy in a harness. Makes a pretty compelling argument for getting a HANS.

I doubt anyone has done any significant testing on this, so nobody is really going to be able to say for sure. If you goto the OGRacing website and watch the video, "Why You Need A HANS Device," you'll see some very interesting crash test video done with the dummy in a harness. Makes a pretty compelling argument for getting a HANS.
Man, stuff like that makes me want to wear a 6-point, helmet, and hans in a fully caged car even when I run for groceries.

Oh this thread is making my head spin!!!

I want a roll bar because of the few times I hit the track but my car is my daily driver. Now I have more questions then answers :(

that Miata installation link showed the dual antisub belt mounting with the clips at the front of the seats. I thought that the angle for those lower belts was pretty important, and that running them over the front of the seat was a no-no
:confusedI didn't see that at first, but you are right, it does just go over the front of the seat. Personally, I'd prefer to have a steady pressure against the old jewels from a tight and well placed sub belt during a wreck, than get into a wreck and submarine until I connected -- jewel first -- with the sub belt at the front of the seat. :eek:

Plus it seems like it would tend to push you under (or into) the seat as you moved forward past the front of the seat, and by the time it stopped you, the lap belt would be up against your abdomen, ready to squash your insides. Not a proper install.

RedNosePit - a dual purpose car is a tradeoff. No clear answers, you have to make a judgment as to what you think matters most. That's why there are large differences of opinion.

I want a roll bar because of the few times I hit the track but my car is my daily driver. Now I have more questions then answers :(
I'm in a similar situation. I'm planning on installing a rollbar and race buckets.
Stock 3-points on the street, 6-points for AutoX, 6-points and HANS for track driving.

Yeah, that doesn't look like any Porsche I've ever came across.

People, don't be stupid. And by that I mean, don't use harnesses without proper rollover protection. If you must, use a CG-lock, but the best thing to have would be a roll bar/cage with harnesses (6-pts, ideally) and race seats. My car is a daily driver, yet it still has a rollbar, harnesses, and race seats.

I agree....scares the shit out of me, yuck, nice avatar!!!

I didn't see that at first, but you are right, it does just go over the front of the seat. Personally, I'd prefer to have a steady pressure against the old jewels from a tight and well placed sub belt during a wreck, than get into a wreck and submarine until I connected -- jewel first -- with the sub belt at the front of the seat. :eek:
Plus it seems like it would tend to push you under (or into) the seat as you moved forward past the front of the seat, and by the time it stopped you, the lap belt would be up against your abdomen, ready to squash your insides. Not a proper install.
RedNosePit - a dual purpose car is a tradeoff. No clear answers, you have to make a judgment as to what you think matters most. That's why there are large differences of opinion.

I don't think you'd have significant pressure on the jewels, as the entire purpose of the antisub belt is to hold the lap belts down. This is what I've read anyway, I could be wrong.