Anybody here have a 2.7 stroker using the 323i head

[BIMMERBOYZ]

I am in a pissing contest on the E30 forum I have this setup 325e short block 2.3 head with 325i camshaft. ETC. I know some of you know this conversion or even have it. Help me out and back me up if you know of any links or good websites on this let me know.

No one thinks it works and won't give enough compression I showed them one site. but they found another reason why it was not enough.

[BIMMERBOYZ]

Link

http://www.e21bmw.net/graymarket/library/327i.php

E30 Forum
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=418985

[TheNeek]

Joe?

[DJProfessor]

yes i recommend going to that thread.........and locking this one.....and shortly there after locking the other, it's getting silly at an alarming rate.

seriously you say two different things in that thread, i don't know what to believe. if you seriously visited the shop everyday that it was being done i want to see some pics......or take some pics of your part number on your engine block........i am not questioning the swap, as i read it can be done, i am just questioning whether or not you have it done.

[BIMMERBOYZ]

I might be able to find the receipt but I don't know if I can get a pic of the block number where is that?

[RDAvena]

Joe?

in 3...2...1...

[BIMMERBOYZ]

No I don't have it done my signature just states that I have a 2.7 stroker.

Just for shits and giggles :)

[DJProfessor]

then lets see some proof cause i don't have it in my signiture that i am putting an eta motor in a us spec 320i using no 323i parts for shits and grins.....

http://www.bimmerwerkz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34383&page=3&pp=20

(pics a few threads down).........

[jjgbmw323]

in 3...2...1...

Sorry all,
I had a heavy meeting today for work.

So, anyway we have discussed this Ad nauseum. :rolleyes

But, here we go again:
Basically if you want to keep you extisting injection system, and 323i head and manifold, and run an eta block, you can dramitically increase the performance of your car.

There has been some talk that the eta crank, found in the 2.7 eta block, can not take high revs. However most Street engines use this crank. You can replace the cast 325eta with a 524td crank or 324td crank. Tyler of Bav Auto raced on limerock park with my 2.8 liter block and eta crank and had no problems, so a 524td crank and knife edging of may be overkill. :embarrasm

With the exiting fuel system of your 323i, you can run a 288 cam.

Metric Mechanic offers both "eta" or "I" style high compression pistons in case you need to freshen up your eta block. They cost around $800. The 2.5 liter "I" block can be bored out to 86 MMs but cost wise you are better off with the eta, if you are using the e 21 323i 200 style oem head.

Both Jack Roberts, Brandon Whitehead and Arne have all talked about this conversion. Brandon's website: www.e21BMW.net has a description about it:

And I just noticed that you gave the thread as well.
http://www.e21bmw.net/graymarket/library/327i.php


Now does it work, yes it does ask Jack Roberts I have his email address if you need it. He is a bmw guru like Ray or Marquis

Here is a quote:
:alright
Also don't forget to wave to those M3's you will be passing and wait until you see the unbelievable look on the faces of those 5-liter Mustang and Firebird drivers.


However I would as this caveot: we have also talked about the fact that the 885 325i head has bigger valves, and a better flowing intake manifold.
In short its a better platfrom to start from.
So a 2.8 325i engine vs a 2.8 e21 (200) head stroker, the "I" 885 one will out perform the 200 head.

Metric Mechanic sells both of these engines, and also the use of M3 crank which increses the displacement to 3.0 or greater. However for the 8-10 k that they are looking for, you are better of building your own - as CJ has stated in previous threads.

Ray, Nic, CJ, Cook and the other guys on this board could walk you threw or point you in the right direction if you need help.

[DJProfessor]

yes don't forget the part about using the M crank shaft to make it a stroker vs. using the td crankshaft......there is a growing consensus that costs for either are about the same now

[jjgbmw323]

yes don't forget the part about using the M crank shaft to make it a stroker vs. using the td crankshaft......there is a growing consensus that costs for either are about the same now

A few years ago, I asked Bav auto how much a 524td crank was remanufactured, and it was $800.

I said forget it, and found two 524td in the yard, one of which I bought the whole block and salvaged the crank out of it.

But now...e36 m3s are old. So the cranks have become available. There is one I saw for about 300 used. However you have to do some work to get this crank to work. The rods need to be filed down slightly to get everything to work right, but it can be done.

So for maximum performance the e36 M3 crank, and maybe even e36 M3 rods are the way to go.

But if you want a "no brainer" mod to you eta block, the 524td crank goes right in.

The m20 rods are forged, and will work fine.

[DJProfessor]

But now...e36 m3s are old. So the cranks have become available. There is one I saw for about 300 used. However you have to do some work to get this crank to work. The rods need to be filed down slightly to get everything to work right, but it can be done.

So for maximum performance the e36 M3 crank, and maybe even e36 M3 rods are the way to go.

I didn't think the M3 rods worked because the wrist pin sizes were different :confused

[jjgbmw323]

I didn't think the M3 rods worked because the wrist pin sizes were different :confused

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wMTA1ODI1MjZzNDEzZGZkMzF5NTQx.jpg
Under the title 3.0 stroker turbo:

http://www.e30tech.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12260

take a look at the thread, he is building a 3.0 stroker using the m3 crank and m3 rods....
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wMTA2Njc5MTZzNDEzZGZkMzF5NTQx.jpg

Note ^^^ two of the m3 rods have been filed..
Also there is a white e21..on tricod's site, I think its Jeff thats running JE pistons, M3 crank and M3 rods.

Details about the M3 rods:


I looked it up.
The S50B30 engine does NOT have compatible rods with the M20B25 engine.
The M20B25 rods have 45mm big ends, while the S50B30 rods have 50mm.

Rods from a S50B30US engine have the same 45mm big ends as the M20B25 engine has though

[TheNeek]

You're going to get the rods machined anyway if you're going through the trouble of a rebuild. The rod ends will be rebored a few thousandths until the surface is smooth. So boring out a rod end to match a wrist pin size is not a problem. Especially if custom pistons are what you're looking at. Much worth the investment anyway.

[DJProfessor]

so it looks like i was only partically right about the rod ends (and with so much forum jumping from ones in the states to ones overseas gets a bit confusing with parts and such) :D

i read the thread, looks like he has to mod them a bit to get them to clear and work properly. not a bolt and go operation.......i couldn't find the thread where people were comparing the M rods to the I rods (did find the thread about the ITB set up, damn that's some sickness)......however, look more closely at the rods.....if you take into consideration where they would sit on the crank (look at the placement of the big circles) the M rod appear to be longer......whereas the overall length is the same the offset is slightly different thus making the rod longer in a sense......

i don't doubt that the M rods are lighter, but from where i am sitting it looks as if the I rods are stronger.....that is unless the M ones are made from a better material.....can you shed some light on this?

[jjgbmw323]

so it looks like i was only partically right about the rod ends (and with so much forum jumping from ones in the states to ones overseas gets a bit confusing with parts and such) :D

i read the thread, looks like he has to mod them a bit to get them to clear and work properly. not a bolt and go operation.......i couldn't find the thread where people were comparing the M rods to the I rods (did find the thread about the ITB set up, damn that's some sickness)......however, look more closely at the rods.....if you take into consideration where they would sit on the crank (look at the placement of the big circles) the M rod appear to be longer......whereas the overall length is the same the offset is slightly different thus making the rod longer in a sense......

i don't doubt that the M rods are lighter, but from where i am sitting it looks as if the I rods are stronger.....that is unless the M ones are made from a better material.....can you shed some light on this?


It would appear that this is the case. M20 > M3 rods.

But..I heard that the M ones are far superior to the M20s..
no idea what they are made of - they are more streamlined,
I will half to research this and post it on e30tech.

later,
J

[bLuE e21 323i]

I have the 2.7L Stroker Setup in mine......

[Madhatter]

well the original 323i head came from an E21 in the 70's.

They took the head and used it on the eta vehicles, exactly the same as the E21 323i, same chamber, same ports, just the eta head only had 4 cam bearings (instead of 7). Both the E21 and E30 eta's share the 200 cast number.

They then took the head and opened up the inlet ports for the E30 323i, same chamber shape, this is a 731 head.

So putting a 323i head on an eta bottom end actually bumps the comp ratio back up (around 9:1 depending on your pistons) compared to using a 325i head which actually drops the comp ratio (because the chamber size is much larger).

http://www.e30tech.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10181

You can compare the heads here, you can see the different port shape between the 731 and the 200 heads.

http://www.hci.net/~z1cmm/For%20Sale/731%20Head/731%20Head%20Intake.jpg
[/img]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/madhatter_/1.jpg

[SA E30]

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wMTA1ODI1MjZzNDEzZGZkMzF5NTQx.jpg
Under the title 3.0 stroker turbo:

http://www.e30tech.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12260

take a look at the thread, he is building a 3.0 stroker using the m3 crank and m3 rods....
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/wetoddimage.wtdr/wMTA2Njc5MTZzNDEzZGZkMzF5NTQx.jpg

Note ^^^ two of the m3 rods have been filed..
Also there is a white e21..on tricod's site, I think its Jeff thats running JE pistons, M3 crank and M3 rods.

Details about the M3 rods:


I found that out about the M3 Rods, cause I used M3 Pistons in my 2.9lt stroker, and I had 2 buy the rods, and pistons 2 gether... it was pretty weird at first, until I got my M40 rods, and realised the S50B30/2 have different size small ends... freaked me put cause the big ends r also different, and they were too big for my cank, and I thought my crank had somethign wrong (328i) ... but yeah, it all worked out in the end

[jjgbmw323]

I found that out about the M3 Rods, cause I used M3 Pistons in my 2.9lt stroker, and I had 2 buy the rods, and pistons 2 gether... it was pretty weird at first, until I got my M40 rods, and realised the S50B30/2 have different size small ends... freaked me put cause the big ends r also different, and they were too big for my cank, and I thought my crank had somethign wrong (328i) ... but yeah, it all worked out in the end

How much where the m3 rods? Who sells them?
Why did you not use the m3 crank? How much hp and did you have sand them to clear the crank?

Thanks
J

[DJProfessor]

J check this out........

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=420132

[jjgbmw323]

J check this out........

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=420132

The crank and rods of the M3 are now the ones to get.

They are cheap. The 524td is older techology now, but is still fine for track cars, or Forced induction.

That set you set me too sold very quickly, I will have to grab the m3 rods and a crank.

[DJProfessor]

my bad, thought you were looking for a set.

[jeff323]

I have an 85' ETA block in my car with an 85' 323 head as well. The car was REALLY fast for what it was, and it's a great setup if you're on a budget.

Is there a website where I can get some good info on a 3 liter build though? This sounds like a direction that I would like to head to when I rebuild my motor. My only question is: Can I use the original E21 Bosch fuel injection and ignition system though? I want my car to look totally stock when you pop the hood.

[jjgbmw323]

I have an 85' ETA block in my car with an 85' 323 head as well. The car was REALLY fast for what it was, and it's a great setup if you're on a budget.

Is there a website where I can get some good info on a 3 liter build though? This sounds like a direction that I would like to head to when I rebuild my motor. My only question is: Can I use the original E21 Bosch fuel injection and ignition system though? I want my car to look totally stock when you pop the hood.

For a 3.0 liter build I would dump the e21 head in favor of the 885 1990 325i head and block and build that up.

Using the 1995 M3 e36 crank and rods, and bore the block to at least 85 mm or greater you have the 2.9/3.0 liter.

You can upgrade the fuel distributor on your existing 323i to a porsche fuel distributor for a 80s carrera when you upgrade your engine. A 200 series e21 323i will never equal the 885 325i head which has larger ports, a different manifold, and a better overall design - so why build this into a 2.9/3.0?

Start with the 1990 M20 2.5 liter 325i engine dump everything under the hood - stroke this and use motronic chip and headers.
later
J

[jeff323]

Thanks for the info; I really don't want to add the later motronic system to my car though. I really want the "sleeper" look to my engine and for it to look completely stock.

If I understand you correctly though, it sounds like I can get a 325 head, put in M3 rods and crank, with a Porsche fuel distributor? Even though it may not be AS efficient as using the later Motronic system, I would think it would be real close, no?

[Jmabarone]

I forgot about this thread.
The Porsche fuel distributor to use would be out of a 928, early model. Not S or S4 though. They had EFI. The stock 928 had a decently sized V8, a 4.5 liter.
Jake

[RDAvena]

I really don't want to add the later motronic system to my car though. I really want the "sleeper" look to my engine and for it to look completely stock.

, with a Porsche fuel distributor? Even though it may not be AS efficient as using the later Motronic system, I would think it would be real close, no?

You do not want the 928 V8 system as this used electronic injectors after 1980.

The Kjet from the 77-79 911s will work fine along with the WUR from the same car. Six cylinders same as the BMW M20.

[jjgbmw323]

You do not want the 928 V8 system as this used electronic injectors after 1980.

The Kjet from the 77-79 911s will work fine along with the WUR from the same car. Six cylinders same as the BMW M20.

Ray is correct. Thats no suprise. :D Thats the one you want you want the 911 one. I have the part numbers some where.


Thanks for the info; I really don't want to add the later motronic system to my car though. I really want the "sleeper" look to my engine and for it to look completely stock.

If I understand you correctly though, it sounds like I can get a 325 head, put in M3 rods and crank, with a Porsche fuel distributor? Even though it may not be AS efficient as using the later Motronic system, I would think it would be real close, no?

Jeff take a look at Tyler Brown of Bav auto's old 79 323i that had the late model M20 2.8 stroker that I bought.
Its sutble so only those who know BMWs can tell its been transplanted in there.

Can you really tell its a 2.8 liter m20 with full 325i motronic and shrick 272 cam with lightened 325i flywheel? take a look:)
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/jjgbmw323/P6170006.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/jjgbmw323/P6170003.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/jjgbmw323/P6170001.jpg
My engine bay is going to look similar: Cant wait till spring:
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/jjgbmw323/P6170022.jpg
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/jjgbmw323/P6170023.jpg
Ansa Jet hot coated e21 323i Headers
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/jjgbmw323/P6170024.jpg

[Jmabarone]

woops! I was thinking about if you wanted to run an M10 turbo like Porsche did with the 924 Carrera GTR, two injectors per cylinter. All the pre-1980 928s are CIS, I know that for a fact.
Jake

[jeff323]

woops! I was thinking about if you wanted to run an M10 turbo like Porsche did with the 924 Carrera GTR, two injectors per cylinter. All the pre-1980 928s are CIS, I know that for a fact.
Jake

No problem, I knew that the 911 compenents were what I needed.

Thanks for the pics "jjgbmw323". That is a sweet setup, I've seen Tyler's car before, in fact I really wanted to buy it when it was on ebay a while back. The only thing is, I really want to use original K-Jetronic fuel injection components for the originality of it, even though it may be inferior...I know, I'm anal!:rolleyes

Basically I want the only changes to be internal, and am just wondering what changes if any are needed to the stock fuel/ignition systems to handle the extra demands of a 3.0L setup?

One last question that I forgot to ask:
Is it possible to use the later 3.2L M3 crank and rods? I only ask because you know what they say; "there is no substitute for cubic inches"!:)

[jjgbmw323]

No problem, I knew that the 911 compenents were what I needed.

Thanks for the pics "jjgbmw323". That is a sweet setup, I've seen Tyler's car before, in fact I really wanted to buy it when it was on ebay a while back. The only thing is, I really want to use original K-Jetronic fuel injection components for the originality of it, even though it may be inferior...I know, I'm anal!:rolleyes

Basically I want the only changes to be internal, and am just wondering what changes if any are needed to the stock fuel/ignition systems to handle the extra demands of a 3.0L setup?

One last question that I forgot to ask:
Is it possible to use the later 3.2L M3 crank and rods? I only ask because you know what they say; "there is no substitute for cubic inches"!:)


Yes. You can use the later 96 m3 crank and not to sure which rods with that.
MM sells there own rods that are 1200 or so, plus the custom pistons.
Jim recommends you run this crank. Call MM to discuss it.

Its just that the head on your stroker will be the 200 series one.

later
J

[jeff323]

Ok great thanks!

I'm confused about one more thing though. My head is off of an E30 323i, so is this a 200 series head or like the later 325 heads?

[jjgbmw323]

Ok great thanks!

I'm confused about one more thing though. My head is off of an E30 323i, so is this a 200 series head or like the later 325 heads?

CHeck the numbering on the head.

I think that a 731 had a little larger ports that the 200 series.

Thats fine to use.

[Madhatter]

they did, inlet only though.

[Yahweh]

are the ports capable enough to port bigger than an I head?

[someguy2800]

are the ports capable enough to port bigger than an I head?

Yes, the head on my e30 is a 200 head ported to the size of a 885 head.


Also I thought you guys might be interested in this, I have been doing some flow bench research on the 200 head for the past few weeks and I have been able to get the 200 head to outflow a stock 885 head without increasing the port opening. Testing was done on a superflow flow bench at 28" Here are a few of my numbers so far.

stock 885 head = 180 cfm

stock 200 head = 131 cfm of flow at 28"

unported 200 head with 885 vavles = 132 cfm

mildly ported 200 head stock valves = 158 cfm
a bit more porting = 173 cfm
3 angle valve seat = 176 cfm
added 885 valves = 182 cfm

All this was done without enlarging the port opening (the 885 port size is about 40% larger than the 200) Next I am going to start opening up the port a bit more and mabey even add 43 mm valves. My goal is to push the 200 casting to over 210 cfm so I have quite a bit more work to go.

[jjgbmw323]

Yes, the head on my e30 is a 200 head ported to the size of a 885 head.


Also I thought you guys might be interested in this, I have been doing some flow bench research on the 200 head for the past few weeks and I have been able to get the 200 head to outflow a stock 885 head without increasing the port opening. Testing was done on a superflow flow bench at 28" Here are a few of my numbers so far.

stock 885 head = 180 cfm

stock 200 head = 131 cfm of flow at 28"

unported 200 head with 885 vavles = 132 cfm

mildly ported 200 head stock valves = 158 cfm
a bit more porting = 173 cfm
3 angle valve seat = 176 cfm
added 885 valves = 182 cfm

All this was done without enlarging the port opening (the 885 port size is about 40% larger than the 200) Next I am going to start opening up the port a bit more and mabey even add 43 mm valves. My goal is to push the 200 casting to over 210 cfm so I have quite a bit more work to go.

What is CFM. I have no idea how big my 885 head has been ported
but I am using plus 1 ferrara valves.
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b297/jjgbmw323/head1.jpg

[wayfast]

cubic feet per minute

[AlaskaBimmer]

MY 200 series ETA head is now running 325i intake valves, and we ported them out by hand and also ported the intake as far down as Justin's porting tools would reach. The machine shop cut in the valves and seated them.

I don't know what the new hp numbers are for the bigger valves since we got all the work done about a month before winter hit, and the motor isn't all the way retuned to it's former state. So in the spring I'll retune it and have it dynoed again and see if I can get better than 140hp/160 tq.

It's not as pretty as Joe's head but Justin did all the work and I got to watch and learn :)
http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q267/jshickman/Baur%20motor/IMG_0769.jpg

[rs4pro3]

sweet, I need to yank my 200 head off and put some larger valves in it. Both me and a buddy are running 2.7 strokers, he is using the 731 head on the eta block with 1mm larger exhaust valves. Where as I'm using a ported 200 head with stock valves on the eta block. We both have very close to the same power, he has just a tad more low end and I have more high end(due to my engine having a hotter cam). But it would be so nice to get the 200 head to flow better then a stock 885 head.

[skyflyer]

Ok great thanks!

I'm confused about one more thing though. My head is off of an E30 323i, so is this a 200 series head or like the later 325 heads?

It will have 731 casting number.

This is reference for you all looking for M20 head [it's very simple, there are only three M20 heads ever made]:
1. 1-264-"200"
2. 1-277-"731"
3. 1-705-"885"

1-264-200 - found in:
- all E21 320/6 (not M10 motor)
- all E21 323i
- all E30 325e (except 1987/1988 dubbed super-eta)

1-277-731 - found in:
- all E30 320i
- all E30 323i

1-705-885 - found in:
- all E30 325i (also E30 325iS)
- 1987/1988 E30 325e (super-eta)

Thats all there is to it.

[Stück]

Those flow numbers for the 200 head are pretty impressive. At what lift are those recorded?

[dustbunny007]

You're going to get the rods machined anyway if you're going through the trouble of a rebuild. The rod ends will be rebored a few thousandths until the surface is smooth. So boring out a rod end to match a wrist pin size is not a problem. Especially if custom pistons are what you're looking at. Much worth the investment anyway.


Boring out the small rod end brings a risk of it breaking at high speed and temperatures. BMW's operate a little hotter than many engines and at higher RPM's. I wouldn't recommend boring it out because its a big risk.

[Yahweh]

Ive herd of many people making them flow better and still at a less dia than an i port. i brought my head to this guy to see what he though about sticking i valves in it. or maybe some ground down m10/m30 valves and he was very impressed how well it was ported from factory.