Here's my in-car video from Mid-OH. Sadly it's a pretty short ride. I did manage to recover from my miserable qualifying position and jumped from 12th to 6th by T2. Watch closely and you'll see a white blur way out front - that's the Fall-Line E46/M5 monster. He's actually going through T5 at the end of the back straight before I get to the kink. Crazy fast stuff.

Speaking of fast, Mueller checks out on me as well. I might have gotten close to his lap time as the race progressed but catching him would have taken a big mistake or poor traffic negotiation on Randy's part.

Congrats to all the class winners and to those, like me, who simply had a great time being part of a pro weekend and hanging out with good friends. There was obvious drama but really we blow it up to be much more than it is. The reduction in e-mail bickering is hopefully a good sign.

Boden/Fall-Line's car is too cool; Daniels and Miller had a great run; Randy threw it down; Will Scott proved that he is a player in DM; Sacardi's showed that huge tires and wings are a good formula at Mid-O; Hamm is best of the "usual suspects"; Berkowitz will eventually beat me; McConnell has a very fast car; Rigoli = speed; Storm was impressive; Hunter is JS king; Osborne and Hawthorne put on a show; and Glen Lucas came back with a new motor and actually had a relaxing weekend.

20050827_MO.wmv (http://www.weldoninc.com/misc/20050827_MO.wmv)

-Sean T #001 IP

PS. I still consider myself unbeaten at Mid-OH in IP. I'm taking a mulligan for this last weekend. How about next year boys - you up to it?? Sure Randy had a good lap time and all but my tires never even got warm ... jeez.

Glad you are ok, that was quite a ride you took.

Looks like it was a , er, interesting race...lots of fast cars!

Wow, Sean, really bad luck!

That V8 car was INSANE down the straight. Obviously David Daniel didn't get as good a run because of racing another car, but the V8 car made his big horespower beast look slow!

Sean, that was just teribble to watch. I feel your pain, it brought back memories of my VIR wreck. It truly sucks when it's not your fault and it ends up like that. Trefethen really messed up there :mad I lnow you will be back, quicker than ever. BTW why don't you link the video to the CR email list. I would love to see what kind of comment we get this time around after Jimmy's incident at RA.

whoa Sean...that was a hell of an incident...the other guy, trefethen, didn't see you come up on him so quick and just cut in on track in front of ya...that just plain sucks and is pure bad luck bro...first Mosport, now this :( ...best of luck in getting 'er back together and hope you were not hurt in the incident...you are no doubt fast and a strong competitor, like Damion said, there's no doubt you'll be back and stronger than ever...maybe even to give Randy a run next time :)

are you still planning on coming to ofest VIR? I am planning on making it hopefully got my fingers crossed, In my last post op they took off the bandages from my surgery and I'm hoping the stiches will fully desolve in time...

Man that's tough to watch. Best of luck getting it rebuilt/replaced for next season.

Holy shit. That was BAD. Damn.

Did you pound him silly afterwards? What a total boneheaded move he made.

Glad you are OK.

Man that's tough to watch. Best of luck getting it rebuilt/replaced for next season.

2nd that!

sorry man!

whoa Sean...that was a hell of an incident...the other guy, trefethen, didn't see you come up on him so quick and just cut in on track in front of ya.

It looks like he fell prey to thinking he could bring the car back onto the track before taking time to totally straighten up and get it slowed down a bit...once the right tire found grip, it shot him straight across the track. Something very similiar happened in the Star Mazda race I was just watching on Tivo.

Ouch Seah - I am SO glad you're OK. Can't believe that you aren't feeling more pain from that - a testament to the car, cage, helmet and HANS.

I also can't believe you had just shifted to fifth gear less than a second before he hit you!! If you're still running a stock 3:15 diff, that says about 120 mph or so - luckily the slide slowed you down somewhat before you hit the wall.

I will miss racing with you at VIR and Watkins Glen - you're welcome to co-drive any time.

I also can't believe you had just shifted to fifth gear less than a second before he hit you!! If you're still running a stock 3:15 diff, that says about 120 mph or so - luckily the slide slowed you down somewhat before you hit the wall.

Seemed to be shifting way too much for a 3.15 (unless he was using 2nd?).

Really sorry to see that and I'm glad you're okay. You did all you could've getting as far right as the car would go.

I've been reserving judgment as I'm obviously biased on how things went down. The incident started several corners earlier as his line though madness was interesting to say the least - bit of an early apex'r.

I really couldn't tell that he'd gone off until I crested the jump into thunder valley. For those that have driven Mid-Oh, you'll understand that commitment to the corner occurs on turn-in; lifting will induce a spin and the brake pedal cannot be considered until the car is pointed straight down the hill. Once I crested the hill and saw he was off course I decided that he had control of the car seeing that he avoided the wall and was on a straight line to intersect the track which was coming to him. Further, considering the off-track nature of his line I assumed he'd be trying to slow down. It appears he tried to turn back to the track rather than continue his straight-line course to intersect the pavement.

In the end, I lost. It is easy to second guess what I/we could have done differently but who knows, maybe the result would have been worse for one or more of us. I do know that things would be different if he'd kept the car on the pavement. I'm glad no one was hurt.

It would have been cool if I had been able to save the spin and keep it off the wall. Seems possible as I watch it in slow motion. The side of my car is really messed up. It looks like Godzilla took a can opener to my door. The B-pillar is crushed in around the cage. It is sobering to think how close the carnage came to me. My next cage will certainly have NASCAR type door bars!

-Sean

The incident started several corners earlier as his line though madness was interesting to say the least - bit of an early apex'r.


-Sean


Understatement of the week above...

NASCAR bars = worth it 100%

Once I crested the hill and saw he was off course I decided that he had control of the car seeing that he avoided the wall and was on a straight line to intersect the track which was coming to him.

I would've done EXACTLY what you did...it seemed like he gained control of the car. If anything, the situation/video teaches me that things can be far more chaotic than they seem. I'll likely slow painfully down the next time someone goes off in front of me.

Jesus christ that was nuts !! Sorry to hear/see your loss and hope you can get back to racing soon.

Damn that was a hard hit.

NASCAR bars = worth it 100%

If they are actually substantial instead of two little bent bars with two connectors between them.

I'll likely slow painfully down the next time someone goes off in front of me.

I know you're probably aware of this, but as a warning to others...check your mirrors first...especially in a situation like Sean's where you have just crested a blind hill of a fast blind corner where you can't lift without spinning. Sean did the right thing by not panic stopping, expecting the other driver to slow down and get back on track safely. Mario, in the other DM car was already long gone and Sean, in IP, wasn't in his class, so there was no reason for the car to try to jump back on track without getting everything under control.

Man that hurts to watch. I had my first on-track impact a few weeks back. it was no fun. How you feeling?
-Ted

Just curious, did the steering wheel try to jerk out of your hands when it hit the wall, or did you go limp and pretty much let go?

Holy shit. That was BAD. Damn.

Did you pound him silly afterwards? What a total boneheaded move he made.

Glad you are OK.
^..

That must have sucked :(

Damn. Sorry to see that happen to you. It sure looks like that other driver should have keep driving it straight after the off going into TV.

It looks like he was doomed a few corners before the incident. His line was pretty "creative".

The good thing is you are OK and the car protected you like it was supposed to. Do you have any pics of the damage?

Just curious, did the steering wheel try to jerk out of your hands when it hit the wall, or did you go limp and pretty much let go?
Actually I tensed up, lowered my head, and wrongfully, grabbed ahold of the steering wheel. I had both feet "in" to lock the tires but it looks like I was late on the brakes or the ABS let the car gain some momentum towards the armco as I went up the track. There was no chance of catching the car from the spin caused by the initial side impact as all 4 tires were in the grass. Following is a higher resolution clip of just the wreck.

crash.wmv (http://www.weldoninc.com/misc/crash_hi-res.wmv)

I'm not attempting to glamorize this in anyway. In fact, I'm hoping that I/we can learn from it and similar incidents can be avoided.

-Sean

I also can't believe you had just shifted to fifth gear less than a second before he hit you!! If you're still running a stock 3:15 diff, that says about 120 mph or so.
It was a 3rd to 4th gear shift. But who's to say if I'm still running a 3:15 diff? Don't worry though, it would appear that I am more competitive with my stock setup. The 'ol #001 isn't running too well these days despite the "improvements."

Look out for the #888 white/orange machine. I hear it just inherited a few performance parts :devillook

-Sean

Cool video,sorry about your car man thats a real bummer. Atleast you weren't injured..

Sean, glad to see you were wearing a HANS device and you are ok. That was one hell of a spin and crash. Im really sorry about your car but Im glad you're still in good spirits.

It looks like he fell prey to thinking he could bring the car back onto the track before taking time to totally straighten up and get it slowed down a bit...once the right tire found grip, it shot him straight across the track. Something very similiar happened in the Star Mazda race I was just watching on Tivo.EXACTLY what I was thinking!!!

I watched that on Tivo too, and except that it was on the right rather than the left, it played out the exact same way. Both guys tried to re-enter the track with too much speed, too much angle, and hooked the front tire. And both took out another competitor.

Glad he walked away, though, be thankful for that.

It was a 3rd to 4th gear shift. But who's to say if I'm still running a 3:15 diff?

I surely wouldn't tell :D

Look out for the #888 white/orange machine. I hear it just inherited a few performance parts :devillook

Great, Just what I wanted to hear :mad He needs no help!! J/K

Ouch, glad to see you are ok though.

Following is a higher resolution clip of just the wreck.

crash.wmv (http://www.weldoninc.com/misc/crash.wmv)


Linky no worky? Can you please repost correct link?

Linky no worky? Can you please repost correct link?
Linky fixed.

crash_hi-res.wmv (http://www.weldoninc.com/misc/crash_hi-res.wmv)

Besides the "creative" lines thru Madness, he also turned in way too lackadaisacally...which explains why he went off at track-out.

Sean,

Glad to hear that you are safe; there were a few hard NASCAR-style hits in that clip.

Any chance you are starting to wonder if Thunder Valley is trying to call chassis #001 home and you are just fighting it swimming upstream? Your car's got some bad luck in that shoot my friend . . . .

ben

Well that just sucks!! Very unfortunate when something like that happens. I will say I have raced with John extensively out here on the west coast and have always been very comfortable with his driving - I still am. Looks like very bad luck. I don't know the track, so I can't comment on the lines through the corners, nor the ability to slow down/speed up when entering or exiting said corners, but I will say it looks like a real man's track that is fast, and risky. Looks like a blast to drive!

Any racer who believes that he will never be in John's shoes is tempting fate. And I am sure many of us have been in Sean's shoes the 5 seconds before impact where you have to decide whether you hit the gas, hit the brake or ???????

This brings up another thought that we should all have some discussion about. I am adamantly against any type of monetary exchange between drivers when this type of incident occurs. I think it sets a very bad precedent and shold be avoided at all costs. In my opinion we are all racing and taking a risk that the car we brought to the track will NOT be in one piece when we leave. We have all mitigated that risk by choosing a 13/13 series where the rules specifially prohibit contact. That's as much risk reduction as I think anybody who is "racing" can get. To those who believe there is no risk when racing I would say, other hobbies beckon.

What are everybody elses thoughts?

I agree on the no money thing but an apology is a good start. If I remember correctly none was issued.

I agree on the no money thing but an apology is a good start. If I remember correctly none was issued.


Are you shitting me? No apology???????????????????????????

:eek: :( :mad

This brings up another thought that we should all have some discussion about. I am adamantly against any type of monetary exchange between drivers when this type of incident occurs. I think it sets a very bad precedent and shold be avoided at all costs.

I think if the person at fault should offer to pay for damages if they can afford to (I believe trefethen's family owns a winery, winery = $$$). I guarandamntee that if I caused loss of property and I could comfortably pay for what I broke I would definitely do it. Now I think it's not cool for the victim to demand money but I think Sean has every right to demand an apology (if in fact he never got one).

If a co-driver busted up your car, wouldn't you expect him to pay for at least part of the damages? What is really the difference in this case? And if you bust up Armco, the track will expect you to pay for at least part of the repairs (Sean, have you or anybody gotten a bill for track repairs?). At the end of the day however loss of property through no fault of your own is a possibility and almost a certainty. I think Sean is handling it admirably.

I think if the person at fault should offer to pay for damages if they can afford to (I believe trefethen's family owns a winery, winery = $$$). I guarandamntee that if I caused loss of property and I could comfortably pay for what I broke I would definitely do it.

Fault is a subjective thing. And while I accept your opinion, we disagree on the subject. The ability to pay doesn't come into my thinking at all here - if it did, maybe as I approached to pass those people who could pay for damage to my car, I might be a little more risk taking knowing that if I could get them to accept responsibility I would have someone else to help pay for damage. Nope - I am not going to think that way. It's my car, my choice to race, my responsibility to fix it should it be damaged.

If you bring your car out to race, you take the risk of not bringing it back. That's well known. If you race, you must accept that. As for your argument regarding a co-driver busting up your car, I think that is completely different. A co-driver is taking responsibiilty for your car, just as you do when you race. If the co-driver is involved in an accident then it's his/her responsibility to repair the car (just like it would be your own responsibility if you were driving). We are all big boys/girls here.

Just my opinion.

Fault is a subjective thing.

I'm talking about a clear case of fault here. 100 out of 100 racers would agree who's at fault. In this case, the other guy was driving poorly for a couple of laps, went off and came back onto the track completely out of control. And it's not like Sean drove right into the guy, he did all he could to avoid him. I agree that there is no precedent nor should there be a requirement for payment if you screw up, I'm just talking about what I would do.

In this case, the other guy was driving poorly for a couple of laps, went off and came back onto the track completely out of control.

Really? It looks to me like he was driving no better or worse than countless other videos I have seen posted here. Also, when he came back on the track, I am sure John would tell you he felt like he was in control. You always feel like you are in control until that one instant where all goes wrong and you are out of control.


And it's not like Sean drove right into the guy, he did all he could to avoid him.

I agree that Sean didn't drive right into John. But he also didn't lift or apply brakes as he saw John off the outside of the turn. And I know someone will say, "you can't lift there because if you do then you will spin...." Unfortunately, that's the risk we all take. And if you look at the video you will see clearly that Sean was on a straight away and accelerating when he was hit. I would argue that Sean could have slammed on the brakes. Only Sean knows if he "did all he could to avoid him." Personally, looking at the video, I think I would have lifted, and applied the brakes rather vigorously, but that's Monday morning quarterbacking - and I wasn't in the car.

It was an unfortunate incident. I know where you stand - you would pay for my car if you made a bone head maneuver and crashed into me. I just think that's a dangerous precedent.

Jon, I agree with you, to a point. IMO, no formalized compensation should be instituted. However, what 2 folks work, in the spirit of Club Racing, and in private rather than in public, is their business. IOW, if Trefethen had privately offered to compensate Tillinghast, that is great...but it is their business.

My only other point is that there ABSOLUTELY should be at least a face to face, personal apology made, even though this was an accident.

Any pics of the car afterwards? Again I hope all gets worked out and you get back out there ASAP.

I know where you stand - you would pay for my car if you made a bone head maneuver and crashed into me.

Haha...you mistakenly assume that I could 'comfortably pay' for a boneheaded move on my part. To make up for the lack of funds on my part, I try to make my boneheaded moves when I'm alone on the track.

And I agree with maranello...any compensation would be worked out between racers and not made public by either the offender or the victim.

My only other point is that there ABSOLUTELY should be at least a face to face, personal apology made, even though this was an accident.

Agreed - but from which racer to which in this case? Not busting on Sean, but he didn't slow down one bit. If I see a racer I have never raced with before 4 wheels off track in front of me, I am on the binders fast because I don't know that racer's history.

I do agree that there should be a debrief after an incident. I don't know if that happened.

Not busting on Sean, but he didn't slow down one bit. If I see a racer I have never raced with before 4 wheels off track in front of me, I am on the binders fast because I don't know that racer's history.

I hear you but the car that went off stayed straight the entire time, only really losing control when he pinched the car to come back on track. As Sean pointed out, this wouldn't have happened had the guy not gone off the track in the first place.

I hear you but the car that went off stayed straight the entire time, only really losing control when he pinched the car to come back on track. As Sean pointed out, this wouldn't have happened had the guy not gone off the track in the first place.

And if you have been racing a while you would expect a car that is entering the track from 4 wheels off, to immediately dart in the direction of the first wheel that hits track surface.

Also, this would have never happened had they not been racing!! But where's the fun in that?

Again, I wasn't there, don't know the track and don't know what happened - just throwing my $.02 into the discussion. I am happy Sean is physically ok!!

I personally don't think that any money should be exchanged unless the person did it intentionally. Which sometimes happens in nascar but I don't think it does in club racing. It is one of those racing deals in my opinion. It sucks but thats the risk you take everytime you race. I think an "I'm sorry" is in order though.

Sean -

Sorry to hear the news. Glad you are OK and hope to see you at the track soon!

Nice start though.

Watching the video says Trefethen never really lifted and was already in a very slight drift when the right front came onto the pavement again. The friction on the right front vs the other 3 wheels on the grass made the car really come around and it then slingshot across, collecting Sean.

Sean never lifted ... you're in an armco canyon, a car's off track with no place to hide IF it comes back across (not a totally unlikely scenario), and you don't lift a bit to give yourself an option?

Trefethen's clearly at fault, IMHO. But Sean compounded a bad situation by not getting out of it. At least nobody was physically hurt, but it's gonna be expensive all the way around.

Watching the video says Trefethen never really lifted and was already in a very slight drift when the right front came onto the pavement again. The friction on the right front vs the other 3 wheels on the grass made the car really come around and it then slingshot across, collecting Sean.

Sean never lifted ... you're in an armco canyon, a car's off track with no place to hide IF it comes back across (not a totally unlikely scenario), and you don't lift a bit to give yourself an option?

Trefethen's clearly at fault, IMHO. But Sean compounded a bad situation by not getting out of it. At least nobody was physically hurt, but it's gonna be expensive all the way around.

Isn't it really easy to critize someone else's driving through a video and have plenty of time to make your own choice for what you would have done??

Isn't it really easy to critize someone else's driving through a video and have plenty of time to make your own choice for what you would have done??

Yes. It is easy. I understand your point about the 20/20 hindsight, but having done this for 20+ yrs in a wide variety of different venues, cars, etc. my experience is that lifting a bit would have been prudent. It may or may not have prevented the contact but it definitely would have given a bit more time and a bit less speed to manage in what was without any doubt a bad situation. Doesn't guarantee success, but it's about increasing your options which should be especially true in a club racing environment where nothing of any real value is at stake other than your own property and personal safety.

Ehh...lift or don't lift...it's a split second decision. If Trefethen hit one more bump in the grass and slowed down another few mph, Sean may have snuck through without a scratch exactly because he didn't lift.

Ehh...lift or don't lift...it's a split second decision. If Trefethen hit one more bump in the grass and slowed down another few mph, Sean may have snuck through without a scratch exactly because he didn't lift.



Ditto...I think Trefethen had more than a split second to decide to slow 'er down in the grass.

Overall, I think its hard to place much responsiblity on Sean on this one even if he could've done something differently.

Ditto...I think Trefethen had more than a split second to decide to slow 'er down in the grass.

Overall, I think its hard to place much responsiblity on Sean on this one even if he could've done something differently.

Why is it ok to be a Monday morning quarterback in regards to Trefethen's actions and not in regards to Sean's?

Its an unfortunate incident, and I still say there should have been a debrief between the parties after the accident. Whether apologies resulted from that debrief (along with monetary renumeration between parties) should be left up to the drivers involved (but I think any payment, even when private, sets a bad precedent). We should all take some responsibility for our decisions to race and therefore put our cars, our health and our lives at risk.

Slow her down in the grass? How's that?

Holder's right, the second I saw that car head back to the pavement I KNEW there was potential for the car to hook around and cross the track. I've only seen it happen 200 times or so....(exaggerating for effect). When they hit I shook my head.

As far as Steve's comment about him never getting out of the throttle...don't see how you can even guess at that from the video.

Bottom line....John T f**ked up....he knows better than to bring the car back on too fast, too soon. Sean was in an impossible situation, damned if he did, damned if he didn't, no where to go. The only way to truly avoid it was to slam on the brakes.....but didn't I see a quick white car in his rear view only a few corners earlier? Hard braking brings up it's own set of problems and might have turned a 2 car wreck into a 5 car wreck.

Sean did the right thing....head for the only gap and pray for it to stay open. It didn't, they hit, that's racing.

Here's the lesson that was confirmed for me from the video. Turn off your ignition after a hard wreck.

Should have punted him at a better angle...
Next time dont steer away. Steer into.
With no apology? What a coward.
Glad you are all right.

Should have punted him at a better angle...
Next time dont steer away. Steer into.
With no apology? What a coward.
Glad you are all right.


Uh, are you sure you want to say this?

Punting is generally frowned upon in a 13/13 series. I don't know who you are, but your displayed attitude is scary - "Next time don't steer away. Steer into." Are you serious? Do you really want Sean to try to get into an accident?

Who are you?

Um, joking...


Sort of.

If some jack ass is about to dive bomb accross the track in a rookie move to keep on the black - right in front of me at 100+ and it's my drivers side door that's going to take the hit...

Hell fucking yes am I going to improve my angle of impact and "punt".
I suppose we would all do something different. However, if a hit was unavoidable at that speed because of someone's "mistake" and I know my car is going to get balled up - guess what? I'm taking care of my ass first and if that means setting up a more favorable hit in the 20 nanoseconds I have - it's happening bub.

Cheers....
(ya sound like a book worm).

Um, joking...
Who am I?
Well I'm Forest.
Forest Gump.
(not my Jenny.....)

Don't you love it when people hide behind login names instead of having the guts to introduce themselves. It's easy on the internet to be the anonymous asshole. I prefer to be an asshole right out in the open.

Don't you love it when people hide behind login names instead of having the guts to introduce themselves. It's easy on the internet to be the anonymous asshole. I prefer to be an asshole right out in the open.

Jeeze - you are a tence guy.
Andrew Abrahams
Dell Vall BMW CCA
101 CM
(ran IP first)
3 races under my belt with the Glen and Mid Ohio comming up....
I suppose if you and I were toe to toe in the paddoc - your tone might be a wee bit nicer....

Be that as it may, my take on this matter is unwaved.
Yes I am a ass hole.

Cheers.....

Jeeze - you are a tence guy.
Andrew Abrahams
Dell Vall BMW CCA
101 CM
(ran IP first)
3 races under my belt with the Glen and Mid Ohio comming up....
I suppose if you and I were toe to toe in the paddoc - your tone might be a wee bit nicer....

Be that as it may, my take on this matter is unwaved.
Yes I am a ass hole.

Cheers.....

Not tense, just passionate about certain things. Understanding to whom I am speaking is one. I am glad you are also passionate about your beliefs. I know where you stand, which is a lot better than not.

Welcome to the (asshole) club.

BTW - your race car is the nicest I have seen. Too bad it's on the west coast. Maybe some day, I will travel to drive lagua.

:)

Haha...Holder....tense....that's funny!

I suppose if you and I were toe to toe in the paddoc - your tone might be a wee bit nicer....

I assure you his tone would be 100% the same. He will tell you what he thinks.

I'm failing to see how a crash is made less severe by turning a glancing blow into a direct blow. Someone explain.

I'm failing to see how a crash is made less severe by turning a glancing blow into a direct blow. Someone explain.

Why are you asking "someone" to explain? Im the guy your asking - RIGHT?

Can "someone" explain why this person wants "someone" to explain what "I" stated?

So you dont think that the angle of impact has any importance when your about to hit something? You need "someone" to explain to you how getting hit - drivers side door is different than front fender? You need "someone" to explain to you what energy absorption is when sheet metal is involved?

Ok - since you want to stir this pot, would you rather take a 100 mph hit to the drivers side door bars in your pretty toy or the left front fender? If you had the chance to make that decision 20 nanoseconds before impact because someone wanted to keep his foot in it and sling shot right accross the track into you...... what would you prefer. (this way I'll know what to do when were on the track together)............

Jeeze! I thought everyone on line was 6 foot 9, 240lbs with an IQ equivalet to Mr Einsten himself?

You have dissapointed me.

Can "someone" explain this ...... "anyone"?
Come on, let's go at it some more.

Andrew, what the hell are you talking about? You're going off on tangents. The way I understand it, your argument is that Sean should have turned toward Trefethen, not away from him. Am I correct?

If so, how is turning into him reducing the angle of impact? How is that going to be a less severe impact on either driver? In this incident, the hit that Sean took was a glancing blow, with a closing speed of FAR less that 100 mph, even though that's how fast Sean was travelling. Trefethen's car came in to Sean's from the side, at a closing speed of maybe 40 mph or so (note I said closing speed). It was only enough to spin Sean's car.

Please enlighten me. I've only taken 100 green flags or so, so I could benefit from your wealth of experience.

Scott Lang

The blow did more than just spin Sean. it peeled his door and penetrated into his drivers compartment. It was a hard shot

Yep, I agree it was a hard shot. 30 MPH is a hard shot. Semantics aside, and to the point at hand: do you also think that Sean's better course of action would have been to turn toward Trefethen? I think I know what you'll say.

101BMOD,

Your comments about turning in are irresponsible and I hope that the new racer (which includes you) who might read this thread can recognize that. Turning into another car will always result in a more direct impact, will transfer more energy and has to be avoided whenever possible. If Sean’s video had shown that he turned into John at the last moment, as you suggested you would have done, all of CR would be crucifying him for not making every reasonable effort to avoid hard contact. Justifiably so.

Mario

FYI – Days of Thunder was only a movie.

I'm with Andrew on this one... If someone is taking me out, I'm gonna get 'em back and pay 'em back if I can.... Maybe teach them not to jeopardize my life/race/car next time.... I'd rather actively show my feelings for someone else's choice than be subject to an empty apology after the race....

Plus, it would totally make for a better video. I'm all about the level of creativity and style in crashes... Too many crashes these days lack inspiration and originality. Racing is just a sector of the entertainment business; too many drivers forget this IMO.

JS

glad to know u ended up ok, what are ur plans now for racing. Whatsup with the car are u parting it out?

Plus, it would totally make for a better video. I'm all about the level of creativity and style in crashes... Too many crashes these days lack inspiration and originality. Racing is just a sector of the entertainment business; too many drivers forget this IMO.

:lol Agreed! I'm proud to say that my crashes have all been spectacular! :redspot

I
am
sorry

--- Spoken in tone like "Karen" in the movie Good Fella's (when she finds herself on her bedroom floor reeling in self pity having just blown an attempt on her husbands life for his cheeting on her).

That's how very sorry I am.

Hugs?

Welcome to the (asshole) club.

Hey, somebody send me my membership card.

Turn into him? Get a grip.

Yeah...let's increase the energy at impact...great idea... :eyecrazy

-DD
(6' 4", not 6'9")

Here's my in-car video from Mid-OH. Sadly it's a pretty short ride. I did manage to recover from my miserable qualifying position and jumped from 12th to 6th by T2. Watch closely and you'll see a white blur way out front - that's the Fall-Line E46/M5 monster. He's actually going through T5 at the end of the back straight before I get to the kink. Crazy fast stuff.

Speaking of fast, Mueller checks out on me as well. I might have gotten close to his lap time as the race progressed but catching him would have taken a big mistake or poor traffic negotiation on Randy's part.

Congrats to all the class winners and to those, like me, who simply had a great time being part of a pro weekend and hanging out with good friends. There was obvious drama but really we blow it up to be much more than it is. The reduction in e-mail bickering is hopefully a good sign.

Boden/Fall-Line's car is too cool; Daniels and Miller had a great run; Randy threw it down; Will Scott proved that he is a player in DM; Sacardi's showed that huge tires and wings are a good formula at Mid-O; Hamm is best of the "usual suspects"; Berkowitz will eventually beat me; McConnell has a very fast car; Rigoli = speed; Storm was impressive; Hunter is JS king; Osborne and Hawthorne put on a show; and Glen Lucas came back with a new motor and actually had a relaxing weekend.

20050827_MO.wmv (http://www.weldoninc.com/misc/20050827_MO.wmv)

-Sean T #001 IP

PS. I still consider myself unbeaten at Mid-OH in IP. I'm taking a mulligan for this last weekend. How about next year boys - you up to it?? Sure Randy had a good lap time and all but my tires never even got warm ... jeez.


Really hurts to watch. Glad you're ok though!

Hey, somebody send me my membership card.

Turn into him? Get a grip.

Yeah...let's increase the energy at impact...great idea... :eyecrazy

-DD
(6' 4", not 6'9")


Sounds like you are already a member. :redspot

Sounds like you are already a member. :redspot

Member? Try founder.

Great video! Love the inside cockpit sound. You really took several cars within the first lap.

Watching that the first time and if I was driving, I probably would of instincly witout hestitaing not let up too and would of tried to squeeze by him.

How much damage was done to the car? :(

Here's my in-car video from Mid-OH. Sadly it's a pretty short ride. I did manage to recover from my miserable qualifying position and jumped from 12th to 6th by T2. Watch closely and you'll see a white blur way out front - that's the Fall-Line E46/M5 monster. He's actually going through T5 at the end of the back straight before I get to the kink. Crazy fast stuff.

Speaking of fast, Mueller checks out on me as well. I might have gotten close to his lap time as the race progressed but catching him would have taken a big mistake or poor traffic negotiation on Randy's part.

Congrats to all the class winners and to those, like me, who simply had a great time being part of a pro weekend and hanging out with good friends. There was obvious drama but really we blow it up to be much more than it is. The reduction in e-mail bickering is hopefully a good sign.

Boden/Fall-Line's car is too cool; Daniels and Miller had a great run; Randy threw it down; Will Scott proved that he is a player in DM; Sacardi's showed that huge tires and wings are a good formula at Mid-O; Hamm is best of the "usual suspects"; Berkowitz will eventually beat me; McConnell has a very fast car; Rigoli = speed; Storm was impressive; Hunter is JS king; Osborne and Hawthorne put on a show; and Glen Lucas came back with a new motor and actually had a relaxing weekend.

20050827_MO.wmv (http://www.weldoninc.com/misc/20050827_MO.wmv)

-Sean T #001 IP

PS. I still consider myself unbeaten at Mid-OH in IP. I'm taking a mulligan for this last weekend. How about next year boys - you up to it?? Sure Randy had a good lap time and all but my tires never even got warm ... jeez.

Damn Sean, that really sucks man. And those were a couple hard hits. I assume the car is pretty much fucked? Ugh.

And as it would come to be, I see everyone and their brother has an opinion on this, even though they were not there and probably have not been in that situation. What would I have done? Who knows for sure until you're in that spot. In JS I doubt I would have even hesitated, full throttle try to work around it. In CM, probably a lift. But it's certainly easy to say sitting here typing on a keyboard with my heart rate at a normal level, no adrenaline rushing. I remember when Ray Mason ran off in T9/10 at Putnam last year. I lifted coming through because I was afraid he might shoot across the track. Different track, different situation.

I hope you get back to it quickly! Good luck bud, lemme know if I can help you with anything, I don't live that far away.

He did what he did, you did what you did. At least you were not hurt.

Here's my in-car video from Mid-OH.

I gotta say, I've never seen that line through the back section of MO before....well at least not with someone else running side by side with them! I bet he was putting an extra 1/2 mile on every lap with all that track he was using.

Musta put the car a bit out of balance with some nasty throttle lifting/feathering as he came under the bridge and back down to the turn in point heading into Thunder Valley. Freaky man, freaky.

Glad you're OK.

Glad you're OK.

John man good run at mosport buddy :) car is looking super sweet! I gotta cal you guys sometime...hope Dan and the rest of the boys are doing well :)

Hey Sunir,

What's your take on financial responsibility in the case of contact? ; )

I guess while I would not necessarily expect compensation because I do accept the risk, it says something about a persons character who is willing to stand up and accept some responsibility for their actions. Certainly this is dependant on the situation and I will not offer any opinion about the current one. For me, if I was at fault in a case of contact I think I'd be inclinded to make some ammends. But that's just me.

John man good run at mosport buddy :) car is looking super sweet! I gotta cal you guys sometime...hope Dan and the rest of the boys are doing well :)

Thanks man. We finally started getting the car's setup dialed in. It was so horrible at Tremblant that I had to get some outside help in setting the car up and man what a difference a little professional help can make.


:redspot

Hey Sunir,

What's your take on financial responsibility in the case of contact? ; )

I guess while I would not necessarily expect compensation because I do accept the risk, it says something about a persons character who is willing to stand up and accept some responsibility for their actions. Certainly this is dependant on the situation and I will not offer any opinion about the current one. For me, if I was at fault in a case of contact I think I'd be inclinded to make some ammends. But that's just me.

I don't think we should come to a consensus on this since every case will be different. If the at fault racer wants to help pay for the repairs it should stay between those involved in the incident. I do believe in karma however.

Thanks man. We finally started getting the car's setup dialed in. It was so horrible at Tremblant that I had to get some outside help in setting the car up and man what a difference a little professional help can make.


:redspot

sounds good John...looks like you and the car are working together for some nice laptimes...professional help does indeed make things better as I've heard from many an accomplished racer...so who helped you out? You can pm me if you want...I was looking to get involved with some support for next year...

thanks bud :)

Hey Sunir,

What's your take on financial responsibility in the case of contact? ; )

I guess while I would not necessarily expect compensation because I do accept the risk, it says something about a persons character who is willing to stand up and accept some responsibility for their actions. Certainly this is dependant on the situation and I will not offer any opinion about the current one.

If I were going to get punted, hit or whatever I certainly would want it to be with someone of character as Jack mentioned...that certainly shows in the way things are handled...and likewise in private between the two parties is probably the best way...

For me, if I was at fault in a case of contact I think I'd be inclinded to make some ammends. But that's just me

this isn't just talking for the sake of talking on a forum...this is very much true.

I am never one to shy away from controversy, so I will add my $0.02.

I will not accept money EVER from anyone if they hit me and cause me to crash or damage my car. I would also not offer. I expect everyone who is RACING to take the same risk I do. If you cannot afford to wad up your car, don't race.

When I crashed my JS car, it took 2.5 years till I could race again as I built up the budget to do it. When the HP car was crashed, it has been since March and it is not back together. That is racing.

I think that money exchanging is so wrong and against the spirit of racing.

AS for fault, John created the situation, but I have watched that video like 100 times and it seems pretty clear to me that the reason that John seems to jolt back on track is that the car is starting to spin. Also, it seems the motor never changed pitch or tone in Sean's car. I know I would lift.

This is not pro racing. We don't have sponsors that have accepted that risk equation to win at all costs. Like Scott, I have only taken almost 100 flags in various racing bodies, and it seems that every time a car goes from grass to track at speed, it spins. Knowing that, I would NOT put myself in the position to be a target for a spinning car.

So easy to see all this 20/20 after the fact I know. However, it really frustrates me that people are so quick to crucify John and not even talk about the other side.

This to me looks like two drivers who both made bad decisions. One was certainly a worse decision then the other, but c'mon none of us really can say what either should do or should have done. In my experience in racing, running race cars and coaching, each mulit-car accident is almost always the fault of both drivers (sometimes 99%/1%, sometimes 50%/50%). But it is racing. That is the risk we all accept when taking the car to the track IMHO.

Sean - I am very sorry for you and your car. Having been through a crash similar to that, it sucks and I am sorry.

John - Say your sorry, if you haven't (it will go a long way). I am still happy to go two deep with you on any turn!

Thanks,
Brad

My mind wandered a bit there.....

Brad brings up a very interesting point.

Saying your sorry is priceless. Even if you think it might hint at taking responsibility or admitting fault, it is not necessarily the case, and just saying the words can do a lot to keep the peace.

I have mixed feelings about the question of paying for damage to someone elses car. I think at some level, if a car is totalled, and the damage is THAT severe, its not likely that any competitor is going to feel compelled to replace another racer's car. You can invoke the "don't race it unless you can afford to write a check for it rule" there.

I had a situation where I hit my Friend Don Black's 02, while someone else was driving it....and I felt horrible. It was a preventable collision despite my own personal rationalization. I felt better paying a relatively small amount of money to help out the driver who had worse things to worry about, and the owner who certainly was not at fault. In this particular case, it was something I could afford, I felt bad about it... CERTAINLY was very appologetic, but I did pay for the damage. Maybe that actually sets a bad precedent, and was wrong... but its what felt right to me at that time.

Alex Lipowich

I see it both ways. Brad is right, that in the case of two driver-owners banging fenders, that's no-harm, no-foul - no money exchanged, just an "I'm sorry" from the guy at fault. That's racing.

Scenarios like the one above, or borrowed race cars, shared race cars, are all different situations requiring different handling. One thing - come to an agreement before the race over what the deal will be. Trying to hammer it out over an already broken or crashed race car is a million times more difficult.

Weather you should lift or not when put in a situation like that depends on a number of things...

Here are 3 things not discussed much to think about...

1.) Do you have in depth knowledge of that section of runoff - the grass the guy in front was on.
2.) Perceived skill of the other guy. If you think the other guy can bring it back without drama.
3.) Weather or not I knew the other guy had in-depth knowledge of that section of runoff.

Read #3 again - very important!

Would I have lifted there? Yes - because all three of the above were not true. I don't know that grass to pavement transition and I would not think Trefethen did either. The transition seemed to hook his rear tires kind of like exit of 2 at WSIR, and coming onto the front straight CCW at Buttonwillow.

If it was the same situation but we were coming out of 9 at WSIR, 2 or 6 at Laguna or 10 at Infineon, I would not have lifted because I know those areas, I know Trefethen to be skilled anough to handle the save and I know that Trefethen knows those areas very well.

So you can't just look at a video and say if you would have lifted or not - there's a lot more to think about. And if you don't think you have enough time to think about those things in a split second then I would disagree with you.

-Ralph (I'm not hiding behind my screen name - he he) Warren