So, I have this awful vibration in my 540 (99-6speed) above 60MPH or so. Around 80 it gets unbearable. I'm a person that likes to sit at around 120 or so.

So, I take it to the stealership after I've already put on new tires (Mich PS2s) trying to make the problem go away with no luck.

THE DEALERSHIP WON'T EVEN LOOK AT IT!!!!!

They say that it's my aftermarket wheels. I had the f**king wheels when I got the car and the shaking wasn't there idiots! It's not the damn wheels!

So, they won't even LOOK at anything else. They just refuse to do anything about it unless I purchase BMW wheels. Even then, they claim that they might not be able to fix it. That, those vibrations are normal on a 6 year old car. My dad has a damn '96 E38 with twice the mileage and it doesn't shake like Mohammed Ali!!! WTF??!!

So, now I gotta try to find another shop that will try at least to fix my car. God this is getting so frustrating. I'm beginning to regret even buying it. It's in amazing condition and looks absolutely beautiful but it is starting to get so many bugs that PEOPLE WONT EVEN TRY TO FIX!!! F**K!!!!!

dealerships suck for the most part. try to find a trustworthy independent mechanic near you. The guy I use locally charges almost as much as the dealers but does awesome work and has proven to me many times that he does honest work.

what you need to do is call and talk to the stealerships service manager and ream him a new one. if that doesn't help call and speak the the GM.

The service manager was the one who told me they wouldn't fix it! My SR and tech were all about it and they said the SM said no! I should call the GM though.

-George

yeah that'd be the way to go. I work at a dealership. when the GM gets envolved and hears about awful service they usally pimp slap the minions and get it done.

So, I take it to the stealership after I've already put on new tires (Mich PS2s) trying to make the problem go away with no luck.

THE DEALERSHIP WON'T EVEN LOOK AT IT!!!!!

They say that it's my aftermarket wheels. I had the f**king wheels when I got the car and the shaking wasn't there idiots! It's not the damn wheels!






Were the tires mounted and balanced properly? It's possible that could be the problem. One of the wheels might also be bent, or maybe, the hub-centric ring (Assuming since they are aftermarket wheels) is the wrong size, or worse not installed! Also, check the torque on the lugs and make sure it's the right ammount, sometimes it's little things.

Hope things work out for you though!

So, I take it to the stealership after I've already put on new tires (Mich PS2s) trying to make the problem go away with no luck.

THE DEALERSHIP WON'T EVEN LOOK AT IT!!!!!

They say that it's my aftermarket wheels. I had the f**king wheels when I got the car and the shaking wasn't there idiots! It's not the damn wheels!






Were the tires mounted and balanced properly? It's possible that could be the problem. One of the wheels might also be bent, or maybe, the hub-centric ring (Assuming since they are aftermarket wheels) is the wrong size, or worse not installed! Also, check the torque on the lugs and make sure it's the right ammount, sometimes it's little things.

Hope things work out for you though!

The tires are brand new (2 weeks old) and were mounted and balanced at a tire place. THEY WERE PURCHASED IN RESPONSE TO THE VIBRATION. I thought it was the tires!

I should get the GM involved. But for now, I'm just going to find another service place. They pissed me off too much and don't deserve my service anymore.

-George

PS: The wheels came with the car when I bought it. The vibration didn't show up until 2 months afterwards so I don't actually think it's the wheels unless it's a bent rim. I really think it's suspension/drivetrain, but they inspected both and said they were fine.....after like 10 minutes of looking at them.....

The tires are brand new (2 weeks old) and were mounted and balanced at a tire place. THEY WERE PURCHASED IN RESPONSE TO THE VIBRATION. I thought it was the tires!

I should get the GM involved. But for now, I'm just going to find another service place. They pissed me off too much and don't deserve my service anymore.

-George

PS: The wheels came with the car when I bought it. The vibration didn't show up until 2 months afterwards so I don't actually think it's the wheels unless it's a bent rim. I really think it's suspension/drivetrain, but they inspected both and said they were fine.....after like 10 minutes of looking at them.....

did you buy it from the dealership or PP, it's not under warranty or anything is it?
maybe the dealership has seen this car in for this same exact problem and don't want to touch it with a ten foot pole...

My dad has a damn '96 E38 with twice the mileage and it doesn't shake like Mohammed Ali!!! WTF??!!


:rofl: WINNAR!

Sorry man, that just made me laugh. Try asking your dealership to speak with your regional rep and make sure not to lose your cool in front of them.

did you buy it from the dealership or PP, it's not under warranty or anything is it?
maybe the dealership has seen this car in for this same exact problem and don't want to touch it with a ten foot pole...
I didn't buy from this dealership. They never even have 540s.

-G

Lift your car and inspect all the various bushings and suspension parts for wear.

Did the rims balance out correctly?

Where does the vibration come from?

Why would you waste money going to a dealer? Just find a BMW shop with good reveiws if you cant do any of the work or diagnos the problem yourself.

Most of the time these things are rim related if they start at a certain speed then dissapait at an even higher speed.

Example: i have a bent rim right now, it starts shaking at 60 and goes away at 70 or so.

You regret buying your car because it has a vibration? :rolleyes If you want 0 problems go buy a honda, bimmers have aggressive suspensions, therefore the parts wear out more quickly - regular bushing refreshment and suspension related work is something you should get used to.

Noticed you're in my neck of the woods. Try a place called Wursters in Franklin, located close to the Factory, ask for Mike (790-3180). They may be able to take a look and find out what the problem is.

I used to take my car to BMW of Nashville whenever something went wrong but lost faith after a few trips. I only take it in if it's something serious. My SR is Karen and she's always treated me good. But I completely understand your frustration with them.

Good luck!

Rent (or borrow) a set of factory 5' series wheels & tires for an hour. See if the tires are balanced.....mount em', torque em' and see if the whole problem goes away.

Easy. And I'm sure you could find someone on the forums to help you out.

If you had the wheels on the car before, and then started getting this vibration, and replaced the tires and had them re-balanced, why are you still so convinced it is the wheels/tires. Ever think of checking your driveshaft? That will do much the same thing, and will get worse in higher speeds vs. wheels which will go away again. Just my .02

Lift your car and inspect all the various bushings and suspension parts for wear.

I second that.. I had a similar issue with my M5 and it wound up being something called the thrust bushings.. Does the steering wheel as well as the car vibrate or just one ?

I don't think it is my wheels/tires, but I can't find someone who will even look at everything else on the car! I'm finding a local shop tomorrow.

-George

I think I know what it is. I had it happen on my 95 m3, and my dad had it on his 98 740il. Check the brake calipers, sometimes they freeze up and basically one or both front calipers could be sticking. When this happens You will get a really bad vibration that only gets worse with increase in speed.
Do you notice more brake dust than normal or anything? also if your car has a manual trans, put it in neutral and if your car doesn't roll back easily that's probably your problem.

Have you tried taking it to an allignment place? Or asking them to check the bushings? I'd complain all the way up the line. They won't change if no one makes them. I find it funny that they won't take the oppertunity to try and rip you off like most other dealerships.

"You need an allignment, that'll be $250" :rolleyes.

The new places said that the wheels are still the culprit! They said I need a "high speed balancing"!!??!

WTF MAN!? Seriously.......they said they checked everything else! I still don't understand this....it can't be the goddamn wheels, it didn't used to be there and getting new tires mounted and balanced didn't change a damn thing!

-G

What wheels do you have? You said you had aftermarket ones, right? What kind are they? If they're cheap pieces of ****, it's very likely they're bent already, and DO need balancing. It is equally likely that they'll never balance ever again, which is why you don't get cheap wheels.

gsibble:

what you're describing (the shaking @ 60+) is the telltale sign of failed control arms. Just thought i'd let ya know.

I vote Bad Controll Arms

I vote Bad Controll Arms

+3

Lift your car and inspect all the various bushings and suspension parts for wear.

I second that.. I had a similar issue with my M5 and it wound up being something called the thrust bushings.. Does the steering wheel as well as the car vibrate or just one ?
Also my vote, plus the alignment
.02

Should've blamed the tire shop for improperly mounting the tires, causing a massive imbalance that threw the balance off whatever else.

Should've blamed the tire shop for improperly mounting the tires, causing a massive imbalance that threw the balance off whatever else.
I'm going to.....

Furthermore, they said they very carefully inspected the control arms (said it was the first thing they did) and said that there was absolutely no looseness. Said there was no way it was causing it. They said they checked the alignment and that it was perfect too. F**K

-G

I'm going to.....

Furthermore, they said they very carefully inspected the control arms (said it was the first thing they did) and said that there was absolutely no looseness. Said there was no way it was causing it. They said they checked the alignment and that it was perfect too. F**K

-G
Dude if everything else checked out, your wheels are bent. It doesn't make a difference if they've cheap wheels or not, its easy to bend them with low profile tires. I've owned my 95 M3 with M Contours since April and I've already bent 3 on the PA roads. When the first one happened, they told me it was pretty oval shaped but still balanced to 0. It drove pretty well for a month or so, but it seemed like every rough patch of road made the vibration in the wheel worse. Finally the vibration got so annoying I bought a new wheel. Vibration gone. Even if a bent wheel will balance to 0 the structural integrity of the wheel has already been weakened and will therefore more easily continue to come out of balance. I had them balance it a second time and it balanced to zero, but still had vibration. Some wheels are bent enough that even if they balance to 0 there will still be vibration.

Also balancing is a real science. I had a problem with vibration on my civic with my aftermarket wheels and I took it several places with no luck. STS Tire was finally reccommend to me and I watched them do the whole process. They balanced everything took it out for a spin, and kept rebalancing until the vibration was gone. A good shop will do this. Just because the machine says zero doesn't mean its not going to vibrate. Find a good shop with a good machine and have them do your wheels. If that doesn't work, I would suggest buying new ones.

Also its very easy to see if your wheels are bent. Jack each side up and in neutral spin your wheels while on the car and see if you see any wobbles. Even a slight bit of bentness will be very obvious.

Hope that helps some.

Evan

wtf are you still doing going to the dealership... how many times do you have to hear it from us, to take your EFFing car to a bmw mechanic; not the dealer!!

Dude check you lug nuts for tightness. I know it sounds silly but somebody tried to sabotage my car by loosening my lug nuts once. I thought I had a serious brake problem because at high speed it shook violently.

Balancing isn't complicated in and of itself, it's just most techs at most shops will throw it on the balancer once, put some weights on it, and be done. I balance my own wheels, and even though I have these POS TSWs (they came with the car) that are so out of round they might as well be square, I still got em to stop shaking at speed after a good half hour on the balancer.

wtf are you still doing going to the dealership... how many times do you have to hear it from us, to take your EFFing car to a bmw mechanic; not the dealer!!
Dude.....this WAS a mechanic....and a good one...

The MECHANIC told me that it was the wheels and everything else checked out. I didn't go to the stealership and I'm not going back.....

-G

my buddy had the same problem on his 540 and it ended up being the thrust arm bushing's. my dad also had the same probelm on his E32 735 and it ended up being the thrust arm bushings

wow ... you seem to be missing half of your brain. if all the mechanics that looked at the car said it was the wheels then it must be the wheels. have them balanced and see if it fixes the problem.
if not, then you might be interested to know that WHEELS CAN BEND WHILE ON THE CAR(which means that they could be fine today, and bent tomorow) ... it doesnt matter that they were fine when you bought the car. It's obvious which wheels are bent once you try to balance them.

wow ... you seem to be missing half of your brain. if all the mechanics that looked at the car said it was the wheels then it must be the wheels. have them balanced and see if it fixes the problem.
if not, then you might be interested to know that WHEELS CAN BEND WHILE ON THE CAR(which means that they could be fine today, and bent tomorow) ... it doesnt matter that they were fine when you bought the car. It's obvious which wheels are bent once you try to balance them.
and you seem to be an IDIOT. I already purchased BRAND NEW TIRES and had the BALANCED 3 weeks ago!!! The problem DID NOT DISAPPEAR. Furthermore, the mechanic put it up on the goddamn lift for like 4 hours and said that everything underneath was OK!!!

AND I JUST GOT IT BACK AND THE OTHER VIBRATION IS STILL THERE!??!?!?! WHAT THE ***?*?!!?

Sorry, so angry right now.

_G

I will post this again: Find a set of known good 5-series wheels and tires. Swap, torque to spec, test drive, check torque again, test drive again. Then you can target or eliminate the wheels.

The End.

I will post this again: Find a set of known good 5-series wheels and tires. Swap, torque to spec, test drive, check torque again, test drive again. Then you can target or eliminate the wheels.

The End.

Calm down and do this already.

and you seem to be an IDIOT. I already purchased BRAND NEW TIRES and had the BALANCED 3 weeks ago!!! The problem DID NOT DISAPPEAR. Furthermore, the mechanic put it up on the goddamn lift for like 4 hours and said that everything underneath was OK!!!

AND I JUST GOT IT BACK AND THE OTHER VIBRATION IS STILL THERE!??!?!?! WHAT THE ***?*?!!?

Sorry, so angry right now.

_G
He said wheels, not tires. From reading the post, it seems that you think most people are saying replace the tires. If the wheel is bent, it doesn't matter about changing tires. Just trying to make sure what everyone is referring too. Good luck on getting the ride fixed.

I will post this again: Find a set of known good 5-series wheels and tires. Swap, torque to spec, test drive, check torque again, test drive again. Then you can target or eliminate the wheels.

The End.
Seriously, if everybody is blaming the wheels, just find some stock rims to test out, just to make sure.

Crap, I have been on this site for like 10 min and I can already say, as others have said, try someones wheel and tire package and see if it goes away. I have a shake in an old jeep around 50mph and my buddy gave me some newer wheels and tires and I slaped them on and the shake was totally gone. Try it cause it sounds like this is becoming harder than it should be. As long as the wheels fit it doesn't matter what they are just give them a shot. As was said before if your wheel are bend then the tires don't mean anything. Have you tried putting the front on the back and the back on the front? Do you feel the front end shake or is it a vibration in the whole car? If there is a vibration in the whole car then it is probably from the rear.

Tell your tire shop. Have them rebalance and force load the wheels. Be very clear about your situation and they will probably be very willing to help you.

Yeah, I'm going to go back to where they were balanced when I got the new tires on and have them do it again very carefully. What confuses me is that they said that the tires balanced fine which means that a rim can't be bent (bent rims make balancing impossible, right?) so I'm confused....

-G

hmm, so it doesn't go away, huh? I got a similar problem, but the car only shakes from 60 to 65mph and then the faster I go, the smoother it gets

A tire/wheel can balance true with a bent wheel. It doesn't take much of a bend to cause a shimmy. You probably know that modern balance machines have a hood that closes over the wheel/tire during the balancing process - for safety reasons. You would think that if a mechanic was chasing a shimmy/wobble complaint, that he would spin the wheel/tire by hand with the balancer hood raised, and look closely at both inner and outer edges of the rim. Some mechanics are very sharp...some need to be told to breath!
I bet your shimmy/wobble problem is somewhat worn suspension and maybe a slightly bent rim. Remember, bigger heavier wheels with less positive offset than OEM will also exaccerbated the problem you describe.
Good luck

Yeah, I'm going to go back to where they were balanced when I got the new tires on and have them do it again very carefully. What confuses me is that they said that the tires balanced fine which means that a rim can't be bent (bent rims make balancing impossible, right?) so I'm confused....

-G
Dude, seriously go back up and read the long post I put for you yesterday. I told you that bent wheels can be balanced and even if they balance to zero, there can still be vibration. You're seriously starting to piss people off with your ignorance. Don't ask for help and then ignore, or in my case, don't even bother to read what people write for you. I would highly suggest not posting anymore until you've tried out some of the great suggestions people have given you because you're seriously starting to build a bad name for yourself. :mad

Take it somewhere that has a road force balancing maching. They can give you a printout of the amount of road force on the wheel/tire combo or just the wheel. Anything over 18-20lbs of road force is bound to cause a vibration at 120MPH. It should never really be more than 22-24lbs. max. This will tell you if it's a tire or a wheel issue. I would say it's more likely that you have one or more wheels that are slightly bent. What kind of wheels are they may I ask?

hmm, so it doesn't go away, huh? I got a similar problem, but the car only shakes from 60 to 65mph and then the faster I go, the smoother it gets

This concern is probably still a wheel/tire balance issue. Other than that, it could be a driveshaft or axle issue.

Would the E38 have the exact same hub size as the E39? If so you can try on your dad's wheels.

(PS, did anyone else notice all the E36 poeple? I had to double check if I was in the right forum :D )

Dude, seriously go back up and read the long post I put for you yesterday. I told you that bent wheels can be balanced and even if they balance to zero, there can still be vibration. You're seriously starting to piss people off with your ignorance. Don't ask for help and then ignore, or in my case, don't even bother to read what people write for you. I would highly suggest not posting anymore until you've tried out some of the great suggestions people have given you because you're seriously starting to build a bad name for yourself. :mad
I do remember your saying that and I'm sorry. There are a lot of great suggestions here, but you have to remember a few things:

1. I don't know anyone else in Nashville with an E39 (especially 540 sport). I've only even SEEN 1 other 540 sport which would have my stock OEM wheels. So I don't have anyone to go ask to borrow rims from. And the E39 uses a different sized hub that any other BMW so it can't just come off of any, it has to be E39.

2. Nashville does not have any of these high-tech balancing places and such. I had to drive 30 minutes to get to the BMW mechanic!! They said they don't know a single place in Nashville that offers high speed balancing OR road force balancing! There just aren't enough performance cars around for anyone to bother doing it.

3. Both the mechanic and the BMW guy told me they spun the wheels, inspected them, and basically went over them with a fine tooth comb and couldn't find a bent rim. However, they still insist that it's just improperly balanced, even though they can't tell me where to get it properly balanced.

Those are the reasons I'm frustrated. I WANT to follow your guys suggestions but some of them are impossible due to the 3rd world city that I live in. I don't mean to seem ignorant and I'm not. I just don't know what to do because of those limitations.

-G

Hmm, I had the same problem, or not that it was "shaking like mohamed Ali" exacly but, it was moving a little strange after 180km/h and above with my new tires, my previous ones, who was like 235 all around was perfect, so I was thinking it might be the new big tires... but the problem was, fuck how can I explain...

the left back tire, when you try to move/wick it front and back while the car is lifted, and it did, maybe 10cm's or so, and the right one was just still as it should be, so they fixed it and now its perfect in all speeds...

might be the same for you? ;P

It is possible that the problem is with your wheels/tires, even though the tires are new and were correctly balanced. BMW's are extremely sensitive to any out of round or out of balance conditions on the front wheels. The wheels must be a close sliding fit onto the centering hub or else they won't mount centered to the hub. As little as 0.010-0.014" play between the wheel and the hub is enough to cause a perfectly balanced tire to cause vibration. High quality aftermarket wheels won't generally have this problem, but some of the poorer ones can.

If this happens to be the case here you have two choices. Replace the wheels with OEM or better quality aftermarket units or find a place that can spin balance the tires on the car. I think there may still be a place here in Huntsville that does this, but I'd have to check.

I fought this exact problem on a 735i that I used to own. The aftermarket wheels that came with the car had slop in the range cited above. Several different tire shops took it as a personal challenge to try to fix the vibration problem. All told some 18 hours or balancing, alignment checks, swapping tires, and suspension inspections came to naught. I finally had the car spin balanced and that solved the problem. The only problem with that was having to redo the balance anytime a wheel was removed (even if it was replaced on the hub in the same position). As soon as those tires came up for replacement I switched to OEM wheels and never had any more problems.

I can't speak for them, but Century BMW is Huntsville (90mi from Nashville) has never given me any grief about the non-BMW parts I have on my car nor have they done so for anyone that I know. If you can't get satisfaction from BMW of Nashville you might want to make trip to Huntsville.

If you can't find anyone to do a wheel swap in Nashville, drive down to Huntsville and we'll put one my my sets of wheels on the car for a quick test. They aren't the right wheels for a 540, but they'll work for a quick test.

sucks that there's nobody near you, where you can borrow a set of stockers. i think that'd be the best way too to see if it is a wheel problem.

btw, what wheels are they?

"Nashville does not have any of these high-tech balancing places and such. I had to drive 30 minutes to get to the BMW mechanic!! They said they don't know a single place in Nashville that offers high speed balancing OR road force balancing! There just aren't enough performance cars around for anyone to bother doing it."

Dude, we live in TN. You and I are knee deep in NASCAR country. How could there not be a butt load of performance cars running around Nashville? I see 5ers, 7s, musclecars, and every sort of import you can imagine running around Chattanooga.

That sucks man, I hope you can get this sorted out soon. What wheels are you running?

My wheels are Bayern Mesh's. They came with the car when I bought then. They are supposed to be very high quality (from what I've read).

I'm going to do my best to find a performance place that can do spin balancing. If not, I'll find someone to swap wheels with and go from there. Thanks guys!

-George

Would the E38 have the exact same hub size as the E39? If so you can try on your dad's wheels.

(PS, did anyone else notice all the E36 poeple? I had to double check if I was in the right forum :D )
Lol! It's because I view the recent threads list on the homepage and click on links that I think sound interesting. I'm guessing the same with the other E36ers :redspot

Since you guys have an E38 and an E39, this is what you do. Your dad's car drives perfectly with no shaking with his wheels on. You go to a tire store and buy a set of hubrings (74.1 to 72.56). Then you put your car on jackstands and put your wheels on your dad's car with the hubrings. If it drivessmooth withour any shaking, it is your suspension on your car that needs attention. If it shakes on your dad's car, it is your wheels/tires causing the vibration.

My wheels are Bayern Mesh's. They came with the car when I bought then. They are supposed to be very high quality (from what I've read).

I'm going to do my best to find a performance place that can do spin balancing. If not, I'll find someone to swap wheels with and go from there. Thanks guys!

-George

In my involvement in the aftermarket community and attending three SEMA shows since 1998, I have never heard anything about Bayern wheels. I did an internet search and couldn't find squat on them. Do you have a web link to any information? I find it strange that I can't find any info one them. Are they called something else maybe? It seems like with all my involvement over the years I would have come across them by now. If the wheels do turn out to be the cause of your problem, you should grab up some BBS's. I've never had any issues with them even with the terrible PA roads around me. And I've hit some huge potholes at ridiculous speeds by accident. IMO, I believe BBS to be the best choice in looks, weight, strength, etc. Just turn on the speed channel and see how many teams are running them. I'd have to say it's at least 75-80%. That's gotta mean something.

In my involvement in the aftermarket community and attending three SEMA shows since 1998, I have never heard anything about Bayern wheels. I did an internet search and couldn't find squat on them. Do you have a web link to any information? I find it strange that I can't find any info one them. Are they called something else maybe? It seems like with all my involvement over the years I would have come across them by now. If the wheels do turn out to be the cause of your problem, you should grab up some BBS's. I've never had any issues with them even with the terrible PA roads around me. And I've hit some huge potholes at ridiculous speeds by accident. IMO, I believe BBS to be the best choice in looks, weight, strength, etc. Just turn on the speed channel and see how many teams are running them. I'd have to say it's at least 75-80%. That's gotta mean something.


I agree, it is odd that he has never heard of these, I have been dealing with Euro cars for a total of about six years and have never heard of them. I also tried to find them on the internet and had no luck. Very strange.

I agree, it is odd that he has never heard of these, I have been dealing with Euro cars for a total of about six years and have never heard of them. I also tried to find them on the internet and had no luck. Very strange.

Maybe he meant Breyton Mesh's?

gsibble:

what you're describing (the shaking @ 60+) is the telltale sign of failed control arms. Just thought i'd let ya know.+4

I had a bad shake around the same speeds you have yours. It was absolutely horrible when I braked at high speeds, too. Replaced the driver's side lower control arm because of some play, not a shimmy since.

if the tires balanced correctly then

wheel issues
1. missing hub centric ring
2. Wheel is bent.
3. Tire is out of round - need to get it shaved.

suspension issues.
4. Bad hub bearing
5. Bad suspension bushing
6. far fetched but maybe - you got mud stuck inside a rolling part.

Maybe he meant Breyton Mesh's?
I think they are Beyern wheels that Discount Tire carries.

I think they are Beyern wheels that Discount Tire carries.

hmm..checked them out on the site and they said they were specifically designed for BMW fitment. But that still doesn't mean that the materials and tolerances are quality or not. It also does not mention anyone of the major manufacturers as a License holder (ex: ASA is licensed by BBS, etc.) so who knows. They could be making these wheels out of recycled trash cans.

Yeah, those are them. Sorry to get it mixed up.

I'm going to keep trying to get this fixed. So frustrated still.

-G

Yeah, those are them. Sorry to get it mixed up.

I'm going to keep trying to get this fixed. So frustrated still.

-G

Although the mechanic says the bushings are ok, sometimes it's really hard to tell. The bushings may be slightly cracked and there will just be an ever so slight crack that you can't see from the outside.

What's the mileage again? If you are around 70,000 miles you should have those control arms swapped out, along with the C/A bushings, and even the Thrust arm bushings while you are at it. They will go out soon anyways. Yuo'd might as well use that to troubleshoot now.