A friend of mine just picked up a Random orbital buffer from Home Depot for 25 bucks. What makes the PC orbital worth 100 more?

Much stronger motor, variable speeds, backing plates with a variety of pads, warranty, etc.

The cheap random orbital will do nothing. I had a Craftsman buffer for years and it was not able to remove any blemishes. THe PC is the MUCH better buy.

I just used a $20 one I picked up at napa this weekend on my recently purchased jet black e36. Of course every little blemish in the clearcoat showed. The cheap polisher with a meguires level four scratch remover and cleaner removed nearly all of the smaller scratches and imperfections in the surface. It did not however remove any of the larger ones, I had to remove those with a little elbow grease and mild rubbing compound then polish them with the buffer afterwards. I am extreamly happy with the way it turned out from what I started with. However, if I could do it over again (and had the extra 130 bucks right now), I would have bought a higher power one to remove the deeper stuff that I couldn't break down by hand. So that's my two cents. :redspot

So that's my two cents. :redspot

Thank you for both of them. :cool

i also picked up one of these cheaper buffers and they really arent that great. they are underpowered and you have to put some elbow greese to get your stuff clean anyway! the time you have to spend pushing on this thing to really get your car looking great sucks.

Just get a rotary buffer :D

Just get a rotary buffer :D
Then, you have to find yourself a bonnet to practice on before you do the real deal.

Just get a rotary buffer :D

:alright

Just get a rotary buffer :D
and a pc to fix the holograms you will make with the rotary. :stickoutt

Slightly off-topic, but why is everyone so afraid of circular buffers? That's all I've ever used and I've never found them to be difficult to use in the slightest. :dunno They certainly have the capacity to burn paint but it seems more hype than a regularly occuring issue. If you are paying attention to what you are doing this should never occure.

Im with you. Rotaries are the only way to go. With a bit of practice, you wont burn any paint, any and ALL swirls/scratches/fading will dissapear, and your paint will look good as new. I am not a fan of orbitals at all...they just dont have the strength of a good rotary.

Slightly off-topic, but why is everyone so afraid of circular buffers? That's all I've ever used and I've never found them to be difficult to use in the slightest. :dunno They certainly have the capacity to burn paint but it seems more hype than a regularly occuring issue. If you are paying attention to what you are doing this should never occure.
I personally just don't really see the need for one. A pc can do just about anything a rotary can do it will just take a bit longer. Besides, even the best detailers I have seens follow up the rotary with a pc. The rotary most always leaves some holograms even when used properly. If my detailing business really takes off I might get one in the future, but the pc won't be going anywhere.

Thank you for both of them. :cool

Careful or I'ma take one of them back :eek:

I've got both the PC and the cheapo random orbit unit. The cheapo is fine for removing wax quickly and evenly, but other than that the thing is much to big and cumbersome. The PC gets into smaller spaces and works really well with compounds and polishes. Not to mention the versitility of the PC because there is such a variety of foam pads available for it to suit any purpose. It was a worthwhile purchase IMO.

Like most have mentioned, the motors in the cheapo random orbital buffers won't really have any effect on surface imperfections. Most polishes must be broken down via heat in order to work properly, and the cheap $20 buffers simply can't generate the heat that a PC can. IMO, you won't see any difference over hand polishing when using a cheap random orbital. :nono

Hope this helps!

You are 100% right. Common misconception is that the circular motion (or "buffing")or pressure removes the surface scratches when in fact heat is your best friend.

Or your worst if you dont know how to use a rotary :stickoutt

You are 100% right. Common misconception is that the circular motion (or "buffing")or pressure removes the surface scratches when in fact heat is your best friend.

Or your worst if you dont know how to use a rotary :stickoutt

Well, no. It's the force of the PC which creates the heat. You can't just heat the paint with a hairdryer and have the swirls dissapear :stickoutt . It's the rubbing action that levels off the paint surface and removes swirls. Heat is simply a byproduct. If you're not getting heat, then the pad isn't working hard enough.

Right. To get even more to the point, its the friction of the rubbing that creates the heat which removes the swirls. My point is, the actual "buffing" that most people do with their hands or the physical contact from the buffer isnt what removes the swirls, its the friction the buffer creates, which in turn heats the surface and removes the swirls.

Can't go wrong with the PC. I bought one and I am still loving it. Loved it so much that I bought a friend one for his b-day. Can't go wrong with tools for b-days either.

physical contact from the buffer isnt what removes the swirls, its the friction the buffer creates, which in turn heats the surface and removes the swirls.

Wait, are you sure about this? So you're claiming that the heat reflows the clearcoat making it smoother? That's doubtful given clearcoat doesn't melt at 170F and I'm sure the PC doesn't get that hot on the pad surface.

By the way, PC is $109 at Lowes.

Wait, are you sure about this? So you're claiming that the heat reflows the clearcoat making it smoother? That's doubtful given clearcoat doesn't melt at 170F and I'm sure the PC doesn't get that hot on the pad surface.

By the way, PC is $109 at Lowes.
then you gotta get a $20 backing palte and at least 3 pads. coastaltools.com has it with backing plate for 119. Then pick up at least one of ech lc pad from topoftheline for about 30 more.

Wait, are you sure about this? So you're claiming that the heat reflows the clearcoat making it smoother? That's doubtful given clearcoat doesn't melt at 170F and I'm sure the PC doesn't get that hot on the pad surface.

By the way, PC is $109 at Lowes.

I disagree with his reasoning. Surface contact is the only way to grade down the surface of the paint. It's like sandpaper, and the polish is the grit. The ROB doesn't work well because it lacks strength. A large pad requires more force than a small pad to distribute the same amount of pressure. But if you push hard enough to make the ROB work properly, the motor doesn't have enough power to make it spin. The PC has more power and a smaller pad, so it doesn't bog down. You can feel the result of this pressure in the form of heat. It's like a nice RO hand sander. If the pad was too big then you'd have to push much harder to smooth out the work surface.

All that aside, the heat is not doing the work. It's more of a gauge if anything. The rubbing of the pad on the paint surface with the polish compound inbetween is grading down the surface and removing the swirls. If the pad isn't warm, you're not getting enough friction to wear down the paint surface. That's about as useful as it gets. The heat might help smooth out the consistency of the polish product, but it certainly isn't going to smooth out the paint on its own. Your paint get's much hotter sitting out in the sun than it does from contact with any power buffer. I haven't yet seen any of my swirls going away in the parking lot on a hot day. :dunno

"If the pad isn't warm, you're not getting enough friction to wear down the paint surface."

Thats pretty much exactly as I described.

"My point is, the actual "buffing" that most people do with their hands or the physical contact from the buffer isnt what removes the swirls, its the friction the buffer creates, which in turn heats the surface and removes the swirls."

Maybe I should rephrase and say "which in turns heats the surface and allows the buffer/product to do their job in removing the swirls."

My point is, it isnt rubbing the spot that removes the imperfection, heat has a lot to do with the equation, and without heat, you are not getting an optimal detail. Hence why most of the sears/pepboys/whatever orbitals dont do much more than act as a set of hands that dont get tired, and hence why all of the best details Ive ever seen have come from high speed rotarys.

No one said heat smooths it out on its own, I am just explaining the benefits of heat and friction to the quality of the detail, something most people overlook when considering products and buffers. Thanks for putting words in my mouth, Ill summarize so I dont get misquoted again.

Heat is good. In order to have the optimal detail (in my experience) a buffer that can generate enough heat through friction is mandatory. This friction, combined with good product, heats the surface and allows the buffer to do its job along with the product in removing imperfections. A buffer that does not generate this friction wont work much better than your own hands.

That is what Ive said all along, not that heat does all the work and you should leave it in the sun to "heat off the swirls" or something...come on man, real cute!

To each their own...if you think you can detail cars without a buffer that creates this friction...hey, their your cars, or your customers cars, thats your deal. It may still come out great, but not as great as it could be. Maybe you need to go speak to some pros about their methods, watch what they do, and ask them their experiences.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth

Not sure if your comment was directed at me or not because you didn't include the author in your quotes, but I personally never put words in your mouth.

Perhaps it was just your explanation that didn't make sense, but you were coming off as if it's just heat alone that removes swirls. I'm clearly not the only one who thought so.

That is what Ive said all along, not that heat does all the work and you should leave it in the sun to "heat off the swirls" or something...come on man, real cute!

Only meant to point out that heat does nothing on it's own, which seemed to be your argument initially.

"My point is, the actual "buffing" that most people do with their hands or the physical contact from the buffer isnt what removes the swirls, its the friction the buffer creates, which in turn heats the surface and removes the swirls."

Nope. Surface contact between the buffer and the paint levels off the swirl marks. This process creates friction, which produces heat. Heat has nothing to do with the work side of any of it. Heat is merely a byproduct which shows that your are applying enough force to create friction. This is simple physics folks. A swirl mark is a scratch in the surface. You must remove the surrounding surfaces to the depth of the scratch for the scratch to be removed. So in fact you are not removing swirls or scratches, but actually removing the paint down to the depth of the scratch. The more aggressive the process, the more heat is produced. Heat is a byproduct only! But it is widely used as a gauge to give you an idea of how much pressure you are applying, and therefore how much work is being done by surface contact and friction. You cannot accurately measure the amount of surface pressure or resulting friction which is being applied to your paint other than the presence of heat. That is the only reason it's common knowledge that if you aren't getting any heat, you aren't removing any swirls.

Wetsanding is probably a better example. You are actually sanding down the surface of the paint to bring it down to the dept of the scratches. When wetsanding you can actually see the paint being removed. You are not filling scratches, but rather removing the surrounding material, grading it down to the depth of the scratch. Compounding and polishing are the same process, only with finer grain abrasives in the form of paste or liquid which remove less surface material, which is only useful for small scratches or swirls. This is why professionals recommend that you only aggresively polish your vehicle once, because if you do it several times you risk rubbing through the finish coat. Polish once and keep waxed forever.


To each their own...if you think you can detail cars without a buffer that creates this friction...hey, their your cars, or your customers cars, thats your deal. It may still come out great, but not as great as it could be. Maybe you need to go speak to some pros about their methods, watch what they do, and ask them their experiences.

HUH? Nobody's contesting the benefits of using a buffer. We all agree it's the way to go. We're discussing WHY it works.

Only meant to point out that heat does nothing on it's own, which seemed to be your argument initially.


"My point is, the actual "buffing" that most people do with their hands or the physical contact from the buffer isnt what removes the swirls, its the friction the buffer creates, which in turn heats the surface and removes the swirls."

Heat is good. In order to have the optimal detail (in my experience) a buffer that can generate enough heat through friction is mandatory. This friction, combined with good product, heats the surface and allows the buffer to do its job along with the product in removing imperfections. A buffer that does not generate this friction wont work much better than your own hands.

Nope. Surface contact between the buffer and the paint levels off the swirl marks. This process creates friction, which produces heat.

There you go. Now how does your own explanation differ than mine, assuming you DONT take my words out of context and paint what Im saying as "heat does all the work."

Your :
Nope. Surface contact between the buffer and the paint levels off the swirl marks. This process creates friction, which produces heat.

Is almost exactly my:
Heat is good. In order to have the optimal detail (in my experience) a buffer that can generate enough heat through friction is mandatory. This friction, combined with good product, heats the surface and allows the buffer to do its job along with the product in removing imperfections. A buffer that does not generate this friction wont work much better than your own hands.

We are both talking about the benefits of friction, which creates heat. Maybe we are intertwining the words too much, but that is the point I am stressing. These cheap buffers we are comparing to a high end orbital or rotary do not generate enough friction to heat up the surface and allow the product to do its job. I dont really see why you keep coming back when youre just repeating what Im saying.

There you go. Now how does your own explanation differ than mine, assuming you DONT take my words out of context and paint what Im saying as "heat does all the work."

I haven't taken anything out of context or quoting anything other than exactly what you are saying.

These cheap buffers we are comparing to a high end orbital or rotary do not generate enough friction to heat up the surface and allow the product to do its job. I dont really see why you keep coming back when youre just repeating what Im saying.

I'm not repeating what you are saying. You just said that the buffer heats up the surface and allows the product to do it's job. That is wrong. The function of the buffer is not to "heat up the surface". Those are YOUR WORDS DIRECTLY QUOTED FROM ABOVE. The function of the buffer is to remove surface material by contact through friction. Heat is no part of the equation.

Um. heh, wow.

Friction does it. The abrasives rubbing off a tiny bit of clearcoat - that's what's actually producing results. If this is happening, it creates heat. Heat does nothing but tell you that there is friction.

That's all there is to it.

Right. Which is what I said.

Friction. Heat is good. Friction creates heat. Heat tells you hey, there is friction going on! A buffer that is generating enough friction to be effective will generate heat with said friction. Thats what Ive said all along....where is the disagreement??? Maybe you need to step away from the computer and realize youre arguing over nothing.

Heat is good. In order to have the optimal detail (in my experience) a buffer that can generate enough heat through friction is mandatory. This friction, combined with good product, heats the surface and allows the buffer to do its job along with the product in removing imperfections. A buffer that does not generate this friction wont work much better than your own hands.

Hello????

Generating enough heat = enough friction to create heat. IE a slow speed orbital that does not generate enough friction will therefore not generate enough heat. Newsflash partner...FRICTION HEATS UP THE SURFACE. When Im saying "heat up the surface" im referring to friction, not a heat gun or the sun as you so cleverly remarked above.

So basically, youre saying friction is key. Im saying friction is key. Since youve nitpicked my posts to try and, as I said again, take my words out of context to make yourself look clever, youve missed the entire point which I summarized above. You yourself said that heat tells you you have enough friction....well thats BEEN my point. The buffer has to generate enough friction to heat the surface or it is not generating enough friction to do its job.

tee hee. you're funny. I'm not arguing. I'm the OP. I see all this arguing going on (when really you both are saying the same thing). I said what I know to be factual, not correcting what you said (what you said was correct). There's no argument left. We've got it all figured out. No worries. Thanks for all the input.

Sorry, I wasnt referring to you when I was talking about the arguing.

And thanks for clarifying...I agree, we are saying the same thing!!!

physical contact from the buffer isnt what removes the swirls, its the friction the buffer creates


This is why you guys are having a misunderstanding. Either you didn't think this one all the way through, or you don't really understand what friction is ...?

I'm not trying to further this petty arguement. Rather I'd like it to stop. Physical contact from the buffer = friction. period. Further more, although the heat isn't doing the actual removing or smoothing of anything, it will aid in the process. Heat helps in the breakdown of every solid substance. Which is what you are doing with the paint/clearcoat, breaking down small amounts of it so that you are left with a smooth surface :buttrock

This is why you guys are having a misunderstanding. Either you didn't think this one all the way through, or you don't really understand what friction is ...?

I'm not trying to further this petty arguement. Rather I'd like it to stop. Physical contact from the buffer = friction. period. Further more, although the heat isn't doing the actual removing or smoothing of anything, it will aid in the process. Heat helps in the breakdown of every solid substance. Which is what you are doing with the paint/clearcoat, breaking down small amounts of it so that you are left with a smooth surface :buttrock

Exactly and well said. I'm sure now that we are all in agreement. But in previous posts by newgsrdriver, regardless of his intent, his techical argument was false, and that's what I was going on. I didn't wany any readers to misunderstand the process because of shakey wording. Call it nitpicking if you will, but that's what science is. :)

Big difference in capabilities between a orbital buffer and a dual action/random orbit poilisher like the Porter Cable 7424. With various types of foam and wool pads, you can remove most paint defects shy of heavy scratches that require sanding and then touch the area up with the PC afterwards.

A rotary doesn't save you a significant amount of time over the PC unless all you're using the PC for is to remove defects. The dual action/random orbit polishers are designed to be easy to use and flexible so its unlikely you will damage your paint.. something which is more of a danger in the case of a rotary.

You can quickly start wearing edges if you're not taping them off correctly as you should when using a rotary unless you have a very refined touch, so as impressive as they are, rotarys are best left to the pros. Stick with the Porter Cable. You will absolutely adore it once you learn how to use it and then consider getting a rotary for the sake of efficiency.

I realize most of us adore the Porter Cable and are rotary fans, I'm just stating my opinion for the record to the thread originator.

Sunny

Bread, you know damn well you knew what I was saying (as others sure did) you just felt the need to pick an e-fight. Its cool, Im glad you had a good time. Funny how my technical argument was false when 2 other people (not including yourself) have repeated what I said about friction and heat. Whatever you say Bill Nye the science guy, there is no getting through to you.

And yes, xdmx, youre right. I could have phrased that better, which is what I tried to do when I summarized. Remove and replace the statement with "<just any cheap buffer "buffing" (ie just rubbing the surface) the paint> isnt what removes the swirls, its the friction <a good buffer must> create that is key"

We are all in agreement and have been since the first post. Although its funny how you now agree with what xdmx said about the benefits friction creates in heating the surface when you disagreed before. "heat has nothing to do with the work side of it..."

Not to nitpick or anything, but thats what science is! (sorry, had to do it) I just dont get the need for this argument when we are both saying the same thing, Ive said it in every post, I dont understand your need for little jabs. <dr crane>Im assuming you got picked on as a kid?</dr. crane>

I dont understand your need for little jabs. <dr crane>Im assuming you got picked on as a kid?</dr. crane>

Hey, now, you're jabbing equally, so I can't feel bad for you. Everyone agrees now. If you guys want to say anything more about it, PM each other, but I as the original poster say that this thread has served its purpose, so drop it. Thanks.

And despite the quarelling, I appreciate all your inputs!

Good point. Touche!

I called you out on it first newgsrdriver. Not because I'm a jerk, but because your reasoning is not causal.

Heat is a byproduct of the work done by the polisher, and proportional to the amount of friction. The amount of friction is determined by the polish, pad, and paint surface. And by work, I'm talking mechanical work, or (friction).(displacement over surface).

I also just wanted to make sure you didn't think the buffer generates friction, which generates heat, which does the polishing. It's more like: the polish+pad+paint generates a particular friction coefficient, which turns into heat due to the work the PC does on the surface, and the heat is a byproduct. The work (physical contact as Bread calls it) done on the surface is that which does the shining.

Love,
donoman

Oops, I didn't read the last 2 posts so sorry for beating a dead horse. But since I spent 5 minutes composing my last beautiful post I will leave it. Tee hee

Bread, you know damn well you knew what I was saying (as others sure did)

Actually no, you seemed confused. I can't talk to you in person, I can only go by what your write. So if you aren't wording your statements correctly then it's nobody's fault but your own.

you just felt the need to pick an e-fight. Its cool, Im glad you had a good time.

I could care less to argue with anybody. It's not exactly my idea of a good time. I argued it because you were stating it incorrectly, not because it's fun.

nWhatever you say Bill Nye the science guy, there is no getting through to you.

I understand the process perfectly, so don't worry about "getting through" to me. The problem I and others were having was understanding what YOU were talking about.


And yes, xdmx, youre right. I could have phrased that better, which is what I tried to do when I summarized.

Exactly! You admit yourself that your wording was off. You should be able to understand why there was so many resulting questions and arguments from us.

Not to nitpick or anything, but thats what science is! (sorry, had to do it) I just dont get the need for this argument when we are both saying the same thing, Ive said it in every post, I dont understand your need for little jabs.

I've made no personal jabs at you or anybody else. And that's a fact. You can go ahead and read any and all of my previous posts for evidence.

<dr crane>Im assuming you got picked on as a kid?</dr. crane>

I see that you can't stand by your own complaint against me :rolleyes Nice. It's clear who is making personal jabs.

Good lord, will you just f*cking drop it...

Good lord, will you just f*cking drop it...

No :) Not until he's done trying to defend his mistake, or I get tired of it. However you are free to read another thread if this one irritates you.

Hahahah what a LOSER you are!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I love how you say "arguments from US" as if there is anyone else on this thread being a prick about how I worded my statement. Everyone in this thread sees we are saying the same thing, yet you still insist on continuing. I dont NEED to post anything else about it, youve already made yourself out to be the fool.

Ill drop it. No problem, no more posts from me directed at Bill Nye, no problem at all.

Back to the thread!

I think most people would be surprised by how easy a rotary is to work. It would be nice to have an old bumper or something lying around to practice on, as its real easy to burn the paint off of a urethane bumper...better to make that mistake on a piece of junk than your car. The results Ive had with rotaries have far exceeded any orbital...again I think people are scared of them due to the damage they may cause, but its really more user friendly than you think. You get the feel for it pretty quickly.

I'm just wondering if the benefits are really worth the risk. The time I'd probably spend fixing the holograms I made would probably be more than if I just used a PC in the first place.

Hahahah what a LOSER you are!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Again, you with the personal attack and I have said nothing personal againts you. Try to keep the conversation at an adult level if your capable.


I love how you say "arguments from US" as if there is anyone else on this thread being a prick about how I worded my statement. Everyone in this thread sees we are saying the same thing, yet you still insist on continuing. I dont NEED to post anything else about it, youve already made yourself out to be the fool.

Must I read the thread for you again? Go ahead and look back and you'll see donoman, Ahheck01, and xDMx all arguing against you. I can quote them if you can't read it for yourself. Since there is more than one of us including myself, that would constitute the word "us".

Ill drop it. No problem, no more posts from me directed at Bill Nye, no problem at all.


So you want to drop it by making another personal attack against me? Like you've just so graciously ended it in such an adult manner :rolleyes Awe gee, I guess it's all over then. Your personal attacks only weaken the validity of your arguments as it becomes apparent to everybody that you can't have a debate without acting childish. Worse yet, you can't admit your mistakes. And when confronted with them you act like you are being attacked instead of admitting up to them like a man.

You both lose.

PM owns you both.

let it die.

Thanks

-Evan

You both lose.

PM owns you both.

let it die.

Thanks

-Evan

Who cares what we babble about here? Nobody has to read it. There are other threads on this massive forum.

And besides, if I'm going to be publicly attacked, you can bet that I'm going to defend myself publicly.

Who cares what we babble about here? Nobody has to read it. There are other threads on this massive forum.

And besides, if I'm going to be publicly attacked, you can bet that I'm going to defend myself publicly.

I understand how you feel about that. Let's all assume you BOTH are bigger men than that, and can take care of this under the table. Yes, this is a massive forum, but there was a point to my thread, so lets not clutter it with further quarelling when a conclusive answer has been found to the original question.

Thanks to anyone who refrains from posting again in this thread. I respect your ability to look at the big picture and realize how not-a-big-deal this is.

-Evan

I understand how you feel about that. Let's all assume you BOTH are bigger men than that, and can take care of this under the table. Yes, this is a massive forum, but there was a point to my thread, so lets not clutter it with further quarelling when a conclusive answer has been found to the original question.

Thanks to anyone who refrains from posting again in this thread. I respect your ability to look at the big picture and realize how not-a-big-deal this is.

-Evan

I love you Evan :)

LOL. Just playin'. I can't speak for anyone else, but I don't see the need to continue either. We really shouldn't clutter up the forum like this I suppose as it makes it difficult to search for answers when you need them (like newb's use the search button anyways, but that's another story!) They can pick on me when I'm gone if they like. I prefer when people talk behind my back :D

I'm just wondering if the benefits are really worth the risk. The time I'd probably spend fixing the holograms I made would probably be more than if I just used a PC in the first place.

It would really depend on the condition of whatever you are detailing to be honest. I wont touch my M with a rotary because simply put, it doesnt need it. I have rotarie'd the Integra, which is a 95 and Milano Red, and it really, really makes a huge difference. Red is very difficult to take care of and keep deep, and the rotary really gets all the imperfections out and makes it look great. An orbital just wont cut it.

Maybe if you have a buddies car that is faded black or getting pink and he doesnt mind if you give it a shot on his car, you can go to town. Im telling you, you'll maybe burn once MAX, you get the hang of it real quick. Read up on different speeds people use for specific products, pads and surfaces, read up on some techniques, as the first thing people do typically is either not hold the buffer firmly enough or apply too much direct pressure.

To determine if the benefits are worth the risk, you really have to take the subject and say, do I need a rotary to make this look good. If the answer is no, then why bother. If the paint is fading badly, it has lost its luster, there are somewhat deep but salvageable scratches...Id go with a rotary.