I know that BMW is moving on to bigger and better things for the 2006 season, but why in the world does Williams appear to moving backward?
Six pit stops at the French GP will not win you any championship points.
Has Frank Williams lost his touch, or is he giving up before the season is even close to being over?

I know that BMW is moving on to bigger and better things for the 2006 season, but why in the world does Williams appear to moving backward?
Six pit stops at the French GP will not win you any championship points.
Has Frank Williams lost his touch, or is he giving up before the season is even close to being over?

BMW cited tension with Frank Williams in the decision to buy Sauber and leave Williams. I would think Williams has already lost, and at this point, is looking to next year with Cosworth power rather than dwelling his current relationship with BMW.

The press release said they has technical difficulties with the engines ... I'll post it tomorrow morning when I get to the office.

one of the guys, i can't remember which driver, was complaining about being burned from his seat...

Six pit stops at the French GP will not win you any championship points.

I don't think that was intentional... :rolleyes

I know that BMW is moving on to bigger and better things for the 2006 season, but why in the world does Williams appear to moving backward?
Six pit stops at the French GP will not win you any championship points.
Has Frank Williams lost his touch, or is he giving up before the season is even close to being over?


in a word; yes. their current situation seems analagous to a couple just waiting for the divorce papers to be finalized. They know it's coming so why bother trying to make the most of the time you have left together.

Mark Webber was apparently dealing with a defective part in his car which caused him to suffer burns on his right leg.
I guess Williams is launching a full investigation concerning thier performance in France.
I even heard that Williams thought that BMW was the toughest engine supplier they have ever had to deal with.
I would be tough too if I was spending millions of dollars on a losing proposition.

Mark Webber was apparently dealing with a defective part in his car which caused him to suffer burns on his right leg.
I guess Williams is launching a full investigation concerning thier performance in France.
I even heard that Williams thought that BMW was the toughest engine supplier they have ever had to deal with.
I would be tough too if I was spending millions of dollars on a losing proposition.
Plus it is very common to hear people say that bmw makes the most powerful F1 engine (or at least among the most powerful f1 engines)...and williams keeps saying it's bmw's fault for not winning?

Plus it is very common to hear people say that bmw makes the most powerful F1 engine (or at least among the most powerful f1 engines)...and williams keeps saying it's bmw's fault for not winning?
At the USGP, both BMW's had a deeper sound. It was a good sound but still different. Sounded like "grunt" but who knows. I didn't think it was a good sign that Montoya left BMW but maybe he knew something.

I am still amazed only 80,000 attended the French GP considering it was in Michellin and Renualt's backyard. The viewing stands appeared excellent. Where was the love, lol.

Plus it is very common to hear people say that bmw makes the most powerful F1 engine (or at least among the most powerful f1 engines)...and williams keeps saying it's bmw's fault for not winning?

this si what most people will say, most power coming from BMW

I hope BMW doesn't quit F1. :nono

I hope BMW doesn't quit F1. :nono
Quit ? :confused
Have you been in a cave or something ? They bought there own team for
next year, so they are not going to quit.

Quit ? :confused
Have you been in a cave or something ? They bought there own team for
next year, so they are not going to quit.
Hahahha spend millions upon MILLIONS of dollars....then just up and quit, haha.

Is Bmw Williams Giving Up?

nope, already dead

consider this year done. williams chassis havven't been productive for a few years, and the risks they took last year put them a year behind development of the twin keel, that only newey at mclaren can make work anyway. bmw has been mid pack concerning power since '03 or early '04. Autosport magazine regularly 'estimates' hp by exhaust frequency. Honda & ferrari have been strong for the past year or so, and renault jumped way up this year. The top runners are mid to upper 900's right now.

I suspect development on the current v10 has already stopped, and the engineers are 100% focus on the new 90deg 2.4L v8.

Autosport magazine regularly 'estimates' hp by exhaust frequency.

That doesnt seem to be a very technical or reliable method of determining power. Maybe revs, but not power.

That doesnt seem to be a very technical or reliable method of determining power. Maybe revs, but not power.

In a formula engine, revs are pretty much the ONLY WAY to determine power.

Hahahha spend millions upon MILLIONS of dollars....then just up and quit, haha.

Well, if they wanted to do that then they could follow the gameplan used by Jaguar. :devillook

That doesnt seem to be a very technical or reliable method of determining power. Maybe revs, but not power.

it's called math.

In a formula engine, revs are pretty much the ONLY WAY to determine power.
How does that work?

I am still amazed only 80,000 attended the French GP considering it was in Michellin and Renualt's backyard. The viewing stands appeared excellent. Where was the love, lol.


The French GP sold out.

it's called math.
:confused

Revs != power, I do not know where you get that assertion. Also BMW is consistanly having one of the very top trap speeds on the straights. Nobody knows how much power any of the engines is putting down unless they make that information public, even the people who say they 'know' have no possible way of knowing how much power. All they have to go by is the results, the trap speeds, and what their microphones pick up from the exhaust notes. They are guessing just like the rest of us.

The French GP sold out.
Oh, OK. Looked like lots of open seats on TV. Speed Channel today said the English GP was sold out with 100,000. As F1 says, we are just the "studio audience".

The French GP sold out.

Hey, I am not trying to be a jerk, but can you resize the picture in your sig please? It's all distorted. It really makes my teeth cringe everytime I see it.

When I watched the British BP this morning both Frank Williams and Mario Thiessen seemed ready to part company.
The sad part is they still have quite a few races before they can call it quits, and a lot of BMW owners and fans who would like to see a better showing.

I think its interesting that the cheap old cosworth's in the red bulls walked all over the alledged power house bmw's

Hey, I am not trying to be a jerk, but can you resize the picture in your sig please? It's all distorted. It really makes my teeth cringe everytime I see it.


I think that sort of thing is best left to private messages.

I think its interesting that the cheap old cosworth's in the red bulls walked all over the alledged power house bmw's
You can make all the power you want but if you arent putting it on the ground it does you no good, obviously the FW27 does not have great mechanical grip.

I think the opposite is true, I think the Williams makes plenty of mechanical grip, but is lacking in aero grip.

Plus it is very common to hear people say that bmw makes the most powerful F1 engine (or at least among the most powerful f1 engines)...and williams keeps saying it's bmw's fault for not winning?

Considering the fact that Ferrari, Toyota, BMW, Mercedes, and Renault engine are all about on par with each other, the argument by Williams is getting a little old. When the V10s were first brought into the equation, BMW was at the top of the F1 engine game. Now however, at the end of the V10s life cycle, one has to admit all the engines are at the same power level and the only real difference is reliability (or in Kimi's case, unreliability :)).

Wait till the V8s lifecycle starts. The BMW (Sauber) chassis will leave much to be desired, but the engine will be, once again, at the top of the heap.

-Prince

F1 is going to hell!
every year new rules and limitations. it is not interesting anymore

the tyres rule... :nono

At least Sauber has that brand new wind tunnel and nice facility which BMW should be able to make good use of.

I think the opposite is true, I think the Williams makes plenty of mechanical grip, but is lacking in aero grip.
Watch them start much?

They usually lose a couple of places right off the start, if the power is there, which it almost undoubtably is, then the only thing to attribute the poor start to is poor mechanical grip. This is why the McLaren and the Renault get off the line so quickly and the Renault is supposedly underpowered.

Renault has that crazy launch method though that isn't "launch control" as the FIA says in the rulebook.

Anyways, mechanical grip (when spoken in terms of F1) almost never has anything to do with the grip at the start of the race. These cars suspension is designed for corner grip, not strait line grip. I think the starts have to do with driver abillity and place on the grid. Renault is fast in the start because they never have anyone in front of them.

-Prince

The BMW engine is also alledgedly dramatic in its power delivery-meaning that theres not a lot until right before redline which makes it less driveable than others and alsop harder to get off the line. Look at the Williams best finish this year: Monaco, the track on which the cars rely on mechanical grip best. conversly, the track which is most reliant on Aero Grip; France, they finished out of the top ten.

hmm i've been hearing that williams is most closely linked to honda in terms of their engine arrangement for next year.

also, i believe it was at Imola where peter windsor said the honda engine was making the most power, something like 970 hp. i believe the ferrari client engines are making 920, and the ferrari engines in the 950's.

i don't think it so much the engines this year that seem to be williams' problem. looks more like chassis/suspension/aero issues if you ask me.

it'll be interesting to see who's driving for Sauber next year. I'm guessing BMW will take heidfeld with them, and williams will bring in Button. Button can't help but gripe about the car at BAR esp the honda engine, I wonder how he feels about driving for williams given their problems and a possible honda engine for 06 :P

in the meantime, as a bar fan i'm hoping we get someone steady, like RB and axe sato to make room for a young gun #2. as much as i appreciate his balls of steel, Sato might just be the unluckiest or boneheadedest driver on the grid.

Its just like the Ferrari's. Tons of power, but the handling has gone out of the window. They have yet to blame the Bridgestone tires, but it will happen soon enough.

BMW needs control of their own team, and get back to winning some races.

my money's on a Williams Cosworth in '06.

my money's on a Williams Cosworth in '06.
I hope this was in jest... :)

-Prince

Williams is in bad shape, they're lossing two primary sponsors and have no engine, it doesn't mean much but Eddie Jordan is leaking rumors of a possible Hyundai buyout of Williams(probably all bs). They want a Honda or Toyota, but Toyota confirmed that they won't do a Lexus next year so either of those two look to be customer relationships which Williams says they wont do. The Cossie is already running for a few months now and the rumors are that its beating all predictions for power. Remember it was just 1999 that Cosworth had the lightest and most powerful engine in F1, it's Feasable.

The BS that you hear today is a lot of what happens tomorrow. You can never tell what Frank Williams has planned for next year, or beyond.

I do hope that F1 gets thier act together.
The continual rule changes are just crazy.
I liked it when each driver had 12 laps to prove that he was the man to beat. The duel that went for an entire hour was fantastic. I just am not into the car after car technique.

The Cossie is already running for a few months now and the rumors are that its beating all predictions for power. Remember it was just 1999 that Cosworth had the lightest and most powerful engine in F1, it's Feasable.

it's been reported somewhere that the Cos V8 is making around 700 hp @ 21000 rpm.

Cosworth has a lot of experience with v8's, which might help the team which uses them.
700HP at 21000 sounds pretty wild.
The screech from those engines should be cool.
We might even get a chance to listen to it if we have a race in the US next year.

And BMW has said in the past that they could get a V8 version of their F1 engines revving @ 24,000RPMs (the current limit for them is the cam shaft length creates a "wobble" at high speeds).

-Prince

the concensus is that the V8's will make more peak horsepower than the V10s did in just a few years because the balance of 4 cylinders per bank is easier to maintain.

One of the great things about Formula One is that the Engineers always work very hard to push the envelope of the regulations. In turn we are witness to a marvelous display of cutting edge technology.

This to me is the truely exciting part of Formula One. The essence of the sport.

Williams to Confirm Cosworth Power for '06
Written by: Cassio Cortes
Hockenheim, Germany – 7/25/2005 Williams 2007 should be a radically different operation, with a new engine and likely new tires, one new driver and even a new paint scheme... (LAT Photo)

After months of uncertainty regarding its future engine plans, Williams has opted for the expected route: the Grove, UK-based team is set to announce a one-year customer deal with Cosworth this week - a possibility that has been ventilated since before this season even started.

The contract with F1’s last “boutique” engine builder is not meant for the long run, however, as Sir Frank Williams’ squad is set to campaign Toyota power in 2007, under the automaker’s luxury Lexus brand. That agreement has not come to fruition for next season only because Toyota is contracted to supply Jordan through '06, and preferred not to stretch its resources by having three teams on its fold.

Williams’ only realistic other option was to run customer BMW engines next year, as the German automaker will take over the Sauber squad in ‘06 to be its factory effort.

Although neither Williams nor BMW confirm the end of their relationship, Mario Theissen, the automaker's motorsport director, gave Munich's plans away by confessing at Hockenheim that "we want to finish this six-year partnership on a high, not a low."

A little more paddock dot-connecting indicates that by ‘07, both Toyota works squads will run on Bridgestone rubber - Williams and Toyota are in talks with the Japanese tire maker, with the British outfit’s switch from Michelin expected to happen next year already. If the Toyota-Bridgestone association is also confirmed, F1 would reach the even 50-50 split called for by Michelin, which currently supplies 70 percent of the teams.

The new deal also ensures a future for Cosworth’s new V8 engine, that has been under development since this year’s early stages. The company owned by Champ Car co-owners Kevin Kalkhoven and Gerry Forsythe will lose its main client for next season, Red Bull Racing, which will switch to Ferrari engines. Cosworth's other customer, cash-strapped Minardi, has opted to run detuned V10s in ‘06 to save money.

Cosworth can now await for a brightest future for Minardi - there’s speculation Paul Stoddart may sell the squad to the Eddie Irvine-led group initially linked to a Jordan buyout - in order to have a strong customer for 2007.

The departure of BMW will also mean a new driver lineup for Williams - Nick Heidfeld is tipped to head the automaker's new team next season, but Mark Webber is expected to stay at Grove - and, most certainly, a new paintjob in relation to the current navy blue/white of the Munich automaker...
from gp.com

I really like the tire supplier ratio being at 50/50.
I do think that BMW are writing this season off, and with only a one year deal with Cosworth who knows what Williams will be like next year.