Had a board meeting tonight, just fyi there is only two spots left in this event. Looks like we will have 48 cars out that day. Three groups of 16.

The good news is Angel is one of the drivers. Watch out ya'll! Team VAG will own! (ahem, right Steph, Mel, and Jill?)

Who is teaching it?

What's the best way to secure one of those spots? I was planning to attend this event.

What's the best way to secure one of those spots? I was planning to attend this event.


Call Jeff Blonder at once. 801.205.5605

I was thinking about this event myself... being the total newb that I am.

I thought this car control event was like a beginners event.. for those who dont know how to autocross or who have NO track experience. - Basic Track theory.. etc.

Uli certainly doesn't need to learn how to control his car? :confused
Are all the rest of you Track junkies doing this too?

I am signed up.

Can never have to much schooling, or seat time.

And I'm betting you are not much more of a Newb then most of us, the basics come fast and you are addicted. The hard part is then going even faster.

Are all the rest of you Track junkies doing this too?

Nope. Having a "world class" autox course from a guy who doesn't autox and not having clocks gives you some insight into the level of what is being done.

Not saying that there is anything wrong with having a car control clinic, and I'd even take it if there were times. Seat time is seat time, and you can always learn something from everyone.

But using the butt-dyno as your timing device make the event pointless if you have the basics down.

Not requiring helmets is a little crazy too, IMO.

Nope. Having a "world class" autox course from a guy who doesn't autox and not having clocks gives you some insight into the level of what is being done.

Not saying that there is anything wrong with having a car control clinic, and I'd even take it if there were times. Seat time is seat time, and you can always learn something from everyone.

But using the butt-dyno as your timing device make the event pointless if you have the basics down.

Not requiring helmets is a little crazy too, IMO.

I DONT even have the basic's down, that is why I was wondering....

I was thinking about this event myself... being the total newb that I am.

I thought this car control event was like a beginners event.. for those who dont know how to autocross or who have NO track experience. - Basic Track theory.. etc.

Uli certainly doesn't need to learn how to control his car? :confused
Are all the rest of you Track junkies doing this too?

Sorry guys, I picked up the last spot.

Thanks for your confidence in my car control abilities. I'm not so sure there is nothing left to learn for me in car control. You guys seem to forget that I may have done that a couple of times more than you, starting last year, but by all accounts I'm still a noob.

Last Saturday, I had an instructor (Charley Shelton) drive my car and it took him only two runs to beat my best time by 0.8 seconds. Heck, I barely could keep up with Bridgette in her old STS2 Miata. This hopefully sets the record straight.

Anyway, this is sure cheap seat time with immediate feedback from an instructor. Also if your car setup changes significantly, going back to the basics in a controlled environment sounds like a good idea to me.

Nope. Having a "world class" autox course from a guy who doesn't autox and not having clocks gives you some insight into the level of what is being done.

Not saying that there is anything wrong with having a car control clinic, and I'd even take it if there were times. Seat time is seat time, and you can always learn something from everyone.

But using the butt-dyno as your timing device make the event pointless if you have the basics down.

Not requiring helmets is a little crazy too, IMO.

Have you been to these in the past? Can you speak from experience? What good are times if you cannot understand the basics of your vehicle and even more important the basics of a course.

In reality, I find that not having a timed event is beneficial to those learning (including myself) as there is no pressure about what time you have. Learning is meant to be taken slow, not against a clock. As with everything, you build yourself up.

I felt an enormous amount of pressure my first autocross event. Nobody wants to come in the slowest. In turn, I was a maniac out there. :D I have learned now that I care less about times and am focusing more on the dynamics of my heavy-ass boat of a car and how to handle her on the "lake". Time will previal, even for those impatient ones like me.

Have you been to these in the past? Can you speak from experience?

Yes and Yes. I cut my teeth doing BMW events years ago. They are great when you are starting out.

What good are times if you cannot understand the basics of your vehicle and even more important the basics of a course.

What good is doing laps if you have the basics down and you can't see if doing something slightly different is a 1/10th of a second faster or slower?

Clocks don't preclude you from ignoring them and working on the basics. Not having clocks precludes (advanced) people from getting objective feedback on how they are doing.

But to answer your question, clocks measure your improvement. You can take the person who doesn't understand slow in and fast out and reign them in. When they charge the corner, push all the way around it, and get an 80 second time, but then on the next lap you get them to slow down on corner entry and get on the gas early and they do a 75 second time, it becomes very obvious that you are not feeding them BS. You don't have a clock there and they may still think that plowing through corner entry and having the back end hanging out on exit with the tires howling is the faster way to go because it feels more wild.

If you notice someone worried about their time and not focusing on the driving, that is your job as an instructor to calm them down, to get them to forget that the clocks are there. Advise them that setting a good time, comes from good driving, and not the other way around.

Same thing for timid drivers who are not pushing their car to the limit. You can slowly build up their confidence and they'll see the time reflected.

There is no better motivator than watching the times fall on the clock as you put it all together. After all, what is the ultimate objective of an AutoX? To set the fastest time. Pretty hard to do when you aren't measuring people's times.

Evolution School Phase II is done without a timing device if I remember correctly. But that only makes sense if you are still fighting for seconds.

If you are an advanced driver and 10th of a second divide the best from the rest, races are won by the 100th of a second, you probably want a clock to measure your improvement.

You don't have a clock there and they may still think that plowing through corner entry and having the back end hanging out on exit with the tires howling is the faster way to go because it feels more wild.


Oh how I wish I had video of our baseline runs at the EVO school. We were way WILD! I think we left $2500 of rubber on that runway.

Evolution School Phase II is done without a timing device if I remember correctly. But that only makes sense if you are still fighting for seconds.

And you know I didn't really like Phase 2 that much. I'd still use a clock, even though the primary focus is on mental imagery.

Would you go target shooting if you couldn't see where your bullets were hitting the target? Just trust us, you got tighter groupings...no really you did. :stickoutt ;)

I understand the entire foundation around autocrossing is time. My point was that as a beginner, one should learn their vehicle, their skills, and the proper ways of handling a track first. How beneficial would it be to take a brand new person who has never been on a track before and say, here, go and time your self. As it stands, I was very happy with some of the times I pulled in the DINAN 5 my first autocross. In fact, they were better than some of the people that had been to events before. This is not to say that I was happy with my style of driving and handling the vehicle. It felt sloppy fast, not controlled fast. I would not get any better in the future if I continued to drive this way, I needed to slow down and "feel" the car and track and then build that up.

At this point, I would not expect to win any races with my level of experience. I would like to learn my vehicle more and take the next few years to become a better driver. The speed will come.

So I suppose if YOU learned and "cut your teeth" at BMWCCA events they may not be as bad as you say, or is just that your so experienced now that they (the events) are beneath you and you find them boring?

Hoping on someone's thread and slamming an event doesn't seem too sportsmen like to me. But, who am I.

Having a "world class" autox course from a guy who doesn't autox and not having clocks gives you some insight into the level of what is being done.

I understand the entire foundation around autocrossing is time. My point was that as a beginner, one should learn their vehicle, their skills, and the proper ways of handling a track first. How beneficial would it be to take a brand new person who has never been on a track before and say, here, go and time your self.

Nice straw man. Totally irrelevant from what I said. Here is what I said:

But using the butt-dyno as your timing device make the event pointless if you have the basics down.

Go look at the question I answered. It asked if "track junkies", those who already have experience and the basics down would find the event useful. I simply answered that it would not be worthwhile for advanced drivers because there would be no timing equipment.


So I suppose if YOU learned and "cut your teeth" at BMWCCA events they may not be as bad as you say, or is just that your so experienced now that they (the events) are beneath you and you find them boring?

Show me where I said they were bad. I said without clocks they don't offer much to advanced students. After you autox enough you'll have the miracle run, where you braked perfectly, got on the power early, ran a great line, but you come across the finish and your time is .xxx seconds slower. It is the single most frustrating thing about autox. What feels like a great run, isn't always the fastest. That is why you need clocks. That is why you need data acq to see exactly where you lost the time.

Hoping on someone's thread and slamming an event doesn't seem too sportsmen like to me. But, who am I.

If you have the hubris to claim a "world class course" from someone who doesn't even participate in the sport you should expect a little criticism.

Nice straw man. Totally irrelevant from what I said. Here is what I said:

But using the butt-dyno as your timing device make the event pointless if you have the basics down.

Go look at the question I answered. It asked if "track junkies", those who already have experience and the basics down would find the event useful. I simply answered that it would not be worthwhile for advanced drivers because there would be no timing equipment.



Show me where I said they were bad. I said without clocks they don't offer much to advanced students. After you autox enough you'll have the miracle run, where you braked perfectly, got on the power early, ran a great line, but you come across the finish and your time is .xxx seconds slower. It is the single most frustrating thing about autox. What feels like a great run, isn't always the fastest. That is why you need clocks. That is why you need data acq to see exactly where you lost the time.



If you have the hubris to claim a "world class course" from someone who doesn't even participate in the sport you should expect a little criticism.

Ok, is it just me, or are we going around on a merry-go-round from hell here.

So to summarize this thread as it is going no where and back around again:

1. WBMWCCA is having an CCC.
2. It is full now.
3. It is a good beginner event. (especially for $40)
4. Some people's idea of "world class course" may differ
5. Johnny believes learning should be taken slow and learn vehicle and track at inception. Todd believes once you learn the basics, start timing yourself to increase your level of ability. (i think they both say the same thing).

the end. :wave

Just out of curiosity Todd, are you figuring this class is being taught by only one person? ( I think we both know who we are referring to). I have been told that there will be a few instructors there. I personally do not know of their credentials.

So to summarize this thread as it is going no where and back around again:

That's because I'm saying a square is a rectangle and you keep responding, that can't possibly be true because a retangle isn't a square. Even though I never said anything about a retangle being a square. Not to mention one doesn't invalidate the other.

Analogy number 2: Todd says "The more tools you have in your tool belt, the better off you are." Johnny says, "Why are you advocating that 4 year olds should be playing with band saws?" What does one statement have to do with the other?

What Todd believes is that everyone should focus on their driving. That is what a driving school is about. What Todd believes is that when you reach a certain level you need emperical verification to verify that you are improving your driving because it isn't as simple as "squeeze the brakes, get your hand off the gear shift and into the 9-3 position, look ahead etc." Todd also believes, that with good instructors, clocks can be a beneficial feedback/motivation for even novice drivers. Todd does not believe that you time yourself to get faster. In fact that is the exact wrong thing to do.

It is like saying hey we are going to win this game because we are the Pats, the Super Bowl champs. No, you win the game because of how you play, and that is what made you the Pats and the Super Bowl champs. Subtle, but important and often forgotten in sports.


Just out of curiosity Todd, are you figuring this class is being taught by only one person?

I certainly hope not or someone is going to be doing a bunch of running. We had a 4 to 1 (~40:10) ratio at our last school and I was running by butt off non-stop to try to make it from car to car.

:wave

:stickoutt

Done and done. Johnny flies to St. John now. :wave