So are there any out there? Possible big gains? I mean because I only see things like supras and other big turbo cars having new intake manifolds for sale to buy and get some hp. but wheres the bmw I6 intake manifolds?

Thanks,

Dan

So are there any out there? Possible big gains? I mean because I only see things like supras and other big turbo cars having new intake manifolds for sale to buy and get some hp. but wheres the bmw I6 intake manifolds?

Thanks,

Dan

On the OBDI versions! Sure, Shrick makes an OBDII manifold for our cars that will gain hp. But flow tests have shown they wont gain as much as simply replacing your stock obdii mani with one from an M50 obdi car.

There is one going through R&D now when it will be ready I can not say as
there is so much that goes into a intake.

intake manifold designed for what purpose? Who is doing the R&D?

BMWAndreas has made a few(Sweden), Kenny/mrblonde has one(Australia), Mertasdan has one(Turkey)...there are more outside the USA but there are only two so far in the US that I have seen. VaderM3(LA, Cali) has one and e34biturbo(Florida) has one.

All custom. Only one being made for production that I know of is ICS's current R&D project intake manifold for the e36 I6.

Purpose? For more air to be shoved into each cylinder per each combustion cycle. This usually includes a larger throttle body as well.

This intake would be a high rpm mainly forced induction.
At first we could not decide whether to keep the TB in same location
or front mount as most of the customs are.what seems to be the issue now is runner taper whats the best for air flow.Here is what we have also thrown around o'ring the fange to the head for a larger bore intake runner this would also benifet the head as you could go larger on the intake ports.As for the R&D its being done by ICS and **** ******** :evil2

BMWAndreas has made a few(Sweden), Kenny/mrblonde has one(Australia), Mertasdan has one(Turkey)...there are more outside the USA but there are only two so far in the US that I have seen. VaderM3(LA, Cali) has one and e34biturbo(Florida) has one.

All custom. Only one being made for production that I know of is ICS's current R&D project intake manifold for the e36 I6.

Purpose? For more air to be shoved into each cylinder per each combustion cycle. This usually includes a larger throttle body as well.

I've seen the custom ones. On a FI application, you can usually get away with a bit more anyway. (at least in terms of neglecting aspects of the harmonics, which seems to be a fairly large weakness for most mechanics and even a good number of engineers.)

On an NA application, cramming more air into the cylinder is a largely an acoustics/vibrations engineer's job. Thus my question was mostly "is it an engineering firm doing this, or a shop?"

The throttle body size can be re-evaluated once the manifold parameters are set. Those will of course be set by the engine characteristics... which includes those of the intake valves. If that side of things is largely unchanged, I doubt there will be a need for much of a change in the TB size.

Varrying runner length, runner volume, runner shape, plenum volume, etc. can all yield gains/losses by themselves. Changing any of those doesn't necessarily necessitate a change in anything else either.

Thus the "what purpose" was "what is the goal?".

Is this to be a peak HP quest for dyno use only and thus short slightly oversized runners on a large plenum volume with a massive TB? Or something to refine streetability of a motor with a big turbo (long runners).

I will buy it if the throttle body is in the same place other wise i will be disapointed bmw did that for a reason. Anyways im sure it wil be a great manifold but i want the throttle body to be centric. I cant wait to see numbers though.

This intake would be a high rpm mainly forced induction.
At first we could not decide whether to keep the TB in same location
or front mount as most of the customs are.what seems to be the issue now is runner taper whats the best for air flow.Here is what we have also thrown around o'ring the fange to the head for a larger bore intake runner this would also benifet the head as you could go larger on the intake ports.As for the R&D its being done by ICS and **** ******** :evil2

Hope this isn't a generic *box with tubes* on the horizon. ;)

Go easy on the taper in the runners. A trumpet at the intake edge is good, but doing something beyond a 1 or 1.5 degree taper will start making the effective runner lengths even shorter acoustically.

On the harmonics front, it might be worth doing a little research on the best direction to point the trumpets since it seems you may be using some. A glance at the E39 M5 intake manifold shows genius. Each runner goes into the same large plenum, but each is directed in a precise direction sympathetic to firing order. :D Oh boy did I grin when I saw that one for the first time.

If you're going to enlarge the intake side of the head all the way to the valve area, I assume you're putting in larger valves too. If not, the whole thing is a waste of time as those are essentially the bottleneck with the stock TB and stock intake manifold...

Enlarging those is also suspect anyway. Its compressed flow, so getting the volume of air in there that you need is doable with boost. (in cylinder pressure monitoring would be a nice way of monitoring and evaluating changes to see when more flow past the intake valve is needed.) Most tend to add concern to fuel/air mixture in the chamber. Big valves and big ports means slow moving gasses and less mixing of the air and fuel.

I assume all of this has likely been evaluated already. If not, more drawing board time might be a good thing before too much fabrication takes place.

I've seen the custom ones. On a FI application, you can usually get away with a bit more anyway. (at least in terms of neglecting aspects of the harmonics, which seems to be a fairly large weakness for most mechanics and even a good number of engineers.)

On an NA application, cramming more air into the cylinder is a largely an acoustics/vibrations engineer's job. Thus my question was mostly "is it an engineering firm doing this, or a shop?"

The throttle body size can be re-evaluated once the manifold parameters are set. Those will of course be set by the engine characteristics... which includes those of the intake valves. If that side of things is largely unchanged, I doubt there will be a need for much of a change in the TB size.

Varrying runner length, runner volume, runner shape, plenum volume, etc. can all yield gains/losses by themselves. Changing any of those doesn't necessarily necessitate a change in anything else either.

Thus the "what purpose" was "what is the goal?".

Is this to be a peak HP quest for dyno use only and thus short slightly oversized runners on a large plenum volume with a massive TB? Or something to refine streetability of a motor with a big turbo (long runners).

We ended up settling on a 75mm TB this will be a hp manifold but not at the
expense of streetabilty yes you will lose a little low end but we are shooting for big top end..
The engineer we are working with is great he has done supras and honda
intakes that are kick ass it just seems like it is taking forever.

Michael, you seem like you have great FI knowledge, how 'bout designing one em intake manifold contraptions and I'll buy one from ya. :)

How much are these "new" intake manifold gonna run?

ICS and **** ******** :evil2

Nick Glantzis?

That would sorta be the ultimate irony considering how those guys used to go at it.

Funny what business can do to people.

:D

So, if doing a intake manifold if I get this right is just to produce bigger HP numbers for those dyno queens or HP wars? But say for road racing and Trackdays an OBD I manifold is much better?

And thanks for such get info so far, but please can you guys explain what and how it makes you loose bottem or top end and making it better flowing (Yes I know its F/I and air is betting Forced into the motor) is really better for possible racing (all types) or is it just for dyno'ing the best and biggest numbers.

I will have a custom intake manifold on my setup. Stay tuned! :)

Nick Glantzis?

That would sorta be the ultimate irony considering how those guys used to go at it.

Funny what business can do to people.

:D

Not in this instance, this is a CC/ICS production...Mr. Nick is pertinent to other areas of business...

Nick Glantzis?

That would sorta be the ultimate irony considering how those guys used to go at it.

Funny what business can do to people.

:D

Now that's the pot calling the kettle black!

I can remember a time when you were criticizing AA. Yet now, we all know which vine you're swinging from.

And for the record, I'm not working on an intake manifold design with ICS.

True Nick, hence my closing comment of

"Funny what business can do to people". :D

I was directing that line as much at myself as to you or anyone else!

However I don't actually recall much active "back and forth" between myself and AA, other than maybe with Prestige once in a while!
:D

Now that's the pot calling the kettle black!


BTW Nick, watch it! No reason to go insulting me just because i have not taken my pregnancy weight off yet.

Pot, how Rude!

:lol

I will buy it if the throttle body is in the same place other wise i will be disapointed bmw did that for a reason. Anyways im sure it wil be a great manifold but i want the throttle body to be centric. I cant wait to see numbers though.

The reason is that the middle of the manifold is "symmetrical" based on cylinder firing. From the TB's perspective, you get an intake pulse on the left... then on the right... then on the left... and so on. :)

If the TB were on one end of the manifold, then the intake pulses become near... then far... then near...

and if you think about how that might line up at some RPM's... you get a far pulse coming back to the TB the same time as a near one does. Pressure fluctuation out the yin yang. ;) (and I'm sure you can imagine what that'd do for cylinder filling.)

We ended up settling on a 75mm TB this will be a hp manifold but not at the expense of streetabilty yes you will lose a little low end but we are shooting for big top end..
The engineer we are working with is great he has done supras and honda
intakes that are kick ass it just seems like it is taking forever.

75mm sounds suprisingly reasonable. I was expecting potentially much worse. :stickoutt

Any info on plenum shape, runner length, etc?

Most good fab guys are perfectionists. (which is why they are good.) Unfortunately that generally makes them fall torwards the less timely side of the scale. Just something you have to get used to though when dealing with that kind of stuff. :)

Michael, you seem like you have great FI knowledge, how 'bout designing one em intake manifold contraptions and I'll buy one from ya. :)

How much are these "new" intake manifold gonna run?

I'd love to make one. Want to invest in the design and manufacture of this thing? ;)

I'd definately be willing to design one. we have the engineering resources around here to do it right. (NVH engineer? check. ;) ) What we don't have is the spare capital to do it right though. It'd probably take making a bunch of them in plastic to make it worthwhile cost effective. (I dont think selling the ones we print on the 3D printers will fly as production pieces. :stickoutt )

How are the stock ones made? Blow molded? injection formed? I actually haven't looked at the stock manifold with "how'd they make this" in mind.

plastics are awesomer than metals. :D

This is very interesting...I always wondered about the Supra guys and other intake manifolds having the TB at one end compared to the stock US BMW TBs. When I first decided that I wanted a custom intake manifold, my tuner suggested that the TB be in the middle or OEM location. I didn't like that at first thinking in my head solely about the "bling" factor. But then he enlightened me about how it actually works and that I need to think about what it is exactly that I want this to do for me.

That was a year or so ago. I decided that I want one for strictly functional purposes so I must have it done right (and not just for top end either). So I have spent over a year trying to find the right people to make me one that I can trust. Ones that use engineering to accurately compose the precise dimensions. techno550, nice reading! I like your posts and it's good, after all this time, to see somebody(some others agreed to this also in this thread) come out with an educated opinion on all of this. Being as careful as I am, who knows when/if I will ever have this IM made.

ICS is claiming they are serious enough to use a flow bench but it will be interesting to see if they hired an engineer or to what extent they are going to with R&D to produce something that will blow us away...or will it be for that magic dyno number.

I dont know about blowing any one away but If ICS and I can produce a manifold that will yeild 30 50 even 70 whp and not lose any or maybe some streetabilty I think it will be succesful. I would like to have one just for 5500-7500 rpm range with some big big hp increase for the strip but that is not practical for all ...Maybe after completion I will have one made just for me :D

How are the stock ones made? Blow molded? injection formed? I actually haven't looked at the stock manifold with "how'd they make this" in mind.


I haven't specifically looked at the manifold thinking about what forming method they used, but I do seem to vaguely recall knock out pin "indentions" around the plenum area. I could be mistaken, but I'd take a quick look for that. Injection molding seems like the way to go with a piece of that size and weight. Blow molding typically doesn't work too hot for thick walls and sharp contours(like the fins on the plenum), so I doubt it's that.

I dont know about blowing any one away but If ICS and I can produce a manifold that will yeild 30 50 even 70 whp and not lose any or maybe some streetabilty I think it will be succesful. I would like to have one just for 5500-7500 rpm range with some big big hp increase for the strip but that is not practical for all ...Maybe after completion I will have one made just for me :D
50-70 would be sick! That would make me happy.

This brings up an interesting question. This is about cramming more air into each cylinder...with all the hp you have made with your car compared to the 3.2L guys with all the head work...I am starting to wonder if all that head work is so necessary.:dunno

50-70 would be sick! That would make me happy.

This brings up an interesting question. This is about cramming more air into each cylinder...with all the hp you have made with your car compared to the 3.2L guys with all the head work...I am starting to wonder if all that head work is so necessary.:dunno

I think the 3.2 guys need to push there motors a little harder and the bigger
#'s will be there .Take this as only a prediction but I think this summer ICS will put out a couple of cars over 600whp and by next year this will be there norm.After making 543whp on a stock motor Im now looking to make over 650 to the wheels on fully built 2.8 maybe more again I will not be scared to push it.

I think the 3.2 guys need to push there motors a little harder and the bigger
#'s will be there .Take this as only a prediction but I think this summer ICS will put out a couple of cars over 600whp and by next year this will be there norm.After making 543whp on a stock motor Im now looking to make over 650 to the wheels on fully built 2.8 maybe more again I will not be scared to push it.
That is awesome news!

Now what I am wondering is...built 2.8? You have another motor why not bore to 3.2L? You love being the Underdog, huh?

I built a short runner manifold for my M20. I cut the stock manifold in half and welded up the plenum. It uses a 75mm BBK throttlebody, and has a displacement of 5L.

http://www.spiel-motorsport.com/albums/Intake%20Manifold/manifold-001.jpg

http://www.spiel-motorsport.com/albums/Intake%20Manifold/finished_man.jpg

http://www.spiel-motorsport.com/albums/Intake%20Manifold/final-motor-017.jpg

http://www.spiel-motorsport.com/albums/Finished%20Motor/final-motor-003.jpg

very nice work dan, got any pics of the rest of the car. more importantly, any increase in hp/performance or anything else?