I've been new to the M3 stuff guys, just coming off cobra mustangs, but I've been doing research here on what might be the best combo of parts for a N/A M3. Initially I found so many people saying you cant squeeze a drop more power out of the M3 in N/A form, but that just doesnt seem true. I've been reading tons of posts and articles on results of different modifications, and I don't see why you can't get near 40rwhp for under $3000 installed.
Heres my parts list.

New K/N Intake =$285. I know its advertized as 18rwhp, but lets say 10rwhp to be safe, as we don't have enough hard #'s to validate the 18 yet imo.

Euro headers = $1100. Seems like people pick up about 10rwhp and 20ftlbs of torque with these babys alone.

Weld hi-flow cats into usa mid-pipe = $400-500. Buying some hi-flow cats and welding them into the usa mid pipe saves a lot of money and should yeild almost the same if not better performance than using a aftermarket pipe or the euro pipe. I am going to stay very conservative and say 5rwhp here.

Pulleys = $250-300 depending what you choose. They almost all show 4-8rwhp, so lets stay conservative with 5rwhp once again.

Chip= $500 -Ive seen guys pick up as much at 10-15rwhp with parts similar to the above mentioned after a tune, but if we stay conservative with 5rwhp I think we should be safer here.

So we have a grand total of 35rwhp :eek: estimating very conservativly, and a price of $2600 leaving about $500 for the header install. The rest should be DIY.

Anyone know a good shop in So Cal, so if I deciede to shoot for this I can get a before and after dyno and have somewhere to install the headers?

-Skyler

People are doing cams, intake, mas air flow sensor, supersprint headers, Ti midsection/exhaust, pulleys, etc... and they are still not seeing 40 rwhp.

T.

Then again Speedtechnik added a K&N Type 69 and a Milltek muffler, and saw 22 rwhp for a little over $1000. Add headers, Powercats, and a tune for another $1500, and I have a hard time believing you won't hit 40hp.

I think that since the E46 M3 is now EOL, and many are starting to come off warranty, people are going to get over their fear of the car and start doing some heavy mods. I remember when I bought my 2002 and immediately became sick of the exhaust sound. I put a few posts out on various forums regarding exhaust replacement, and I got lots of responses that can be summed up as "BMW left very little HP on the table ... this car is a closed system, can't be modded without messing it up ... its not a Mustang/Camaro, so no cheap and easy HP is available.. etc". One guy even sent me a PDF copy of the Arvin Meritor design docs for the complete US exhaust. He told me that after seeing that he resolved it was too perfect of a system and he'd never mess with it.

Never mind that the euro cars had a much different, much more efficient exhaust that would give you 10hp minimum, right off the bat. The first E46 M3 that broke the 300rwhp barrier used software and a euro exhaust, and nothing else.

I hope to dyno soon and see what 'basic' bolt on's will yield.

Skyler - SURELY you are aware that you can't simply add up mods? Different mods give extra power in different parts of the rev range. The headers may give you a max of 10hp at 7000 RPM, but they may only increase it by 1-2 horsepower from 3000-6500 RPM. The chip on the other hand may really improve mid-range power, giving it's peak increase in power at 5500 RPM and dropping off in it's benefits above that. So, you peak power won't go up by the peak gains you get from each mod.

I think that outside of adding coilovers, SSK, and window tint to my 2005, I'm done. I bought a V8 truck for my modding addiction.

BMW M3 (289 rwhp stock) + $2500 = 310 rwhp

Dodge Dakota R/T 5.9 (205rwhp) + $2500 = 450 rwhp.

Math?

Did you put a blower on that R/T 5.9? I mean if you want to go that way why not get a 03 or 04 Cobra. $150 will give you 450rwhp in a much more usable chassis. Ive never figured the attraction to fast trucks, but to each his own. If you like it, thats all that matters....

I very much understand you cannot just add up horsepower, :rolleyes thats why I used figures that should all cross up near the peak. I understand this is somewhat bench racing as personally I have not gone out and done it.... I recently saw a guy who added euro headers, weld in cats, a chip and cat-back for a gain of 33rwhp, with no CAI or pulleys. Why does everyone think this car has no N/A potential. I spent $3600 in parts alone to get my 99 cobra to 322rwhp up from a guestimated 275-280rwhp stock Thats a gain of 42-48rwhp for more $. These are normal mods for these cars, and they are seen has having great naturally aspirated potential as you can unleash near 50rwhp with exhaust, intake, pulleys and a tune. I also added 4.30 gears and a solid rear which put the car in the low 12's. So were looking at 35-40rwhp for $1000 less. Seems like price per hp is less on the M3 than the cobra. Why such a bad rap for mods on the M3? :nono

That brings me to another topic. Why can't the M3 be a low 12sec car with minor mods, gears, and a tire. Thats all it took in my cobra. Granted it was a slightly ligher car at 3300lbs and had more torque. Say running the M with a 4.30 gear, these mods making ~310rwhp and a tire should launch it very very deep into the 12's with trap speeds nearing 112mph. Ive seen 3200lb cars go as fast as 114-115mph with only 318rwhp, but granted more torque. Can the M rear not hold up to a launch that would yeild a 1.6x 60' needed to get a time like this?


-Skyler

Did you put a blower on that R/T 5.9? I mean if you want to go that way why not get a 03 or 04 Cobra. $150 will give you 450rwhp in a much more usable chassis.


Usable? :rofl Tell me how many late Cobras can haul 40 2x4 planks or twenty bags of mulch. Plus, theres guys in the Southeast R/T club who've put the Hotchkis TVS suspension on their truck and they eat Cobras in the autocross. True story.

I like the Cobra performance and feel, but the cars are butt-ugly IMO. I would much rather get the 06 Cobra when that hits.

Another thing that detracts from the Cobra is that 90 percent of the people who own them add the exact same mods. "Yeah I put an x-pipe, a Lightning pulley, and an intake on". A few pull the Procharger off and put the Kenne Bell on. I got tired of hearing it. Plus I like to be different. Read my threads over the past year: I was the guy bringing a 2002 M3 to the drags right next to all those LS1's and Cobras :D

I like this truck a lot. Comfortable interior, nice lines, and an engine I grew up with. There are so many different directions I can take this as I build it that I have at least a years worth of fun ahead of me as I approach the 11's. Thats as far as I want to go with it.

And no, I didn't put the KB on there. For $12,000 I got the truck with 47k miles and a lot of mods done to it already. The headers and SC together were probably $5000. I have a ways to go before its perfect, but then what is perfect?

I wasnt trying to bash your truck. It definatly sounds cool. I avoided an 03 cobra for the same reason you did. All the same mods, pulley, chip, cat-back xpipe etc, 475rwhp. I went w/ a 99 cobra I tried to get to run low 12's high 11's to smoke some of the lightly moded 03's with a N/A car.

Anyways Id like to stay on topic here on the M3 stuff.

Don't worry, I know you weren't bashing the truck.

On topic: The M3 is heavy, and lacks about 100 lb-ft of torque. The mods people do keep adding hp but for some reason no one ever goes for torque. I'd like to see someone put a set of torquey cams in, but they don't even exist.

You can't really just add the numbers from one mod to the next for an actual total. If you think of the engine (lets not even touch tranny/mounts/suspension/etc.) as an entire system, then each mod changes that system, and some of the HP that the exhaust or headers add is the same HP that a higher flowing intake adds. Bolt ons are tricky to add up, especially on highly tuned engines. I don't know where you can get euro headers for $1100, but if you can please tell us. Most of the prices I've seen are closer to $2K. And you also have the O2 sensor thingy to deal w/, unless you just want to delete them w/ the software. Then that raises the issue of emissions testing for those of us that have to deal with that.

Also you are talking only peak HP. It's funny everyone who buys stereo equip. knows that peak watts don't mean anything compared to RMS (more of an average power output). But we all give value to peak HP when it is really the total increase in power across the rev range that matters.

I have a K&N 63, AA exhaust, AA software, BHS pulleys, plus other stuff for brakes and suspension. I plan on doing a dyno in a couple of weeks. I'll post the results. I'd love to add performance headers and cats. If you can seriously get that done for less than $2K - LET ME KNOW. I'd love to do that.

Get the BHS headers for 1300 and weld in some high flow cats for say 300 and labor you are under 2000.

Again as mentioned earlier the gain thats actually experianced of 40rwhp+ is not at peak. especially for the mods listed.

T.

Get the BHS headers for 1300 and weld in some high flow cats for say 300 and labor you are under 2000.

Is that a price you got from BHS? a reseller?

Which cats? Where do I buy them?

Now what about O2 sensors? Do I have to build/weld custom mounts? delete them? If they are deleted do I need to update my software w/ shark? how much? What does that do to emissions? If you have to add software to keep warning lights from going off, or to ensure the ECU behaves well to take advantage of the headers - then you're over $2K

Again as mentioned earlier the gain thats actually experianced of 40rwhp+ is not at peak. especially for the mods listed.

T.

Not sure I get your comment. The 40+HP IS a measure of peak HP, or the maximum gain from stock HP. This my not occur at the same RPM or "peak" that the max stock HP occured, but it is still measured at a single point on the power curve. It is definately not 40+HP across the entire rev range. If someone could make that mod for less than $3K they'd be a millionaire tomorrow.

A better test of a mod is a dyno graph or spreadsheet that shows the additional HP in 100 RPM increments across the rev range. I think peak HP is easier for most people to understand so mods get marketed that way, but a higher peak does not always mean more power.

For one thing you're double counting the gain from headers. Welding high flow cats into the current mid-pipe is going to reduce hp, not increase it. The stock US headers have the cats in them, so if you replace them with Euro/SS/BHS headers you can take the gain from that, and subtract what you lose by welding in a high flow cat in the mid-pipe. Also, if you're planning on using Superchip or Powerchip, you'll need to lengthen and custom fit the post-cat o2 sensor to avoid a CEL. With the o2 sensor lengthening, header install, and custom cat welding (which imho is not such a good idea since then you can't revert to stock if you need to, which you might in order to pass smog), your labor costs are too low. And I haven't seen anywhere you can get Euro headers for $1100, not even close. And even if you keep a stock muffler, you'll still be looking at 4 grand easily for this set up. The car is just not cheap to mod.

At the end of the day you might squeeze 40 rwhp out of it, but unfortunately you'll spend $100 a horse to do it, and it may not pass smog.

what was said above is totally correct.

you cant add up power... u may see 10 peak horse with headers, add a chip, you still may only see 10 peak horse, maybe even LOSE 1 or 2, but gain an extra 10 -15 in the lower rpms... giving you the feeling of a great boost... do you get whats up?
same goes with all mods... add up all those maybe only see 20 peak horse gain but 20-30 throughtout the band... and that can feel like a lot.. its all relative. i would tend to stay away from power numbers and see how things improve 0-60 and 1/4 acceleration, and over all drivabilty.

All your guys points are correct and well taken. The price I got the on the euro headers was from someone else on the board quoting you could get them for about 500 ea from a bmw dealer. The details of this I unfortunatly do not recall. It was in some posts I read within the last month. Again, I have seen a car pick up 32rwhp with all these parts except the cai and pulleys. I dont think this is a guarantee, and I don't know the labor #'s to be right on. I was adding up prices on parts alone. I dont see how 35 to POSSIBLY 40rwhp with this combo isnt that far out of the question. Id really like to give it a try, but sometimes moding cars takes the fun out of them when it doesnt go right. Been down that road a few too many times before. Again look at the comparison. I picked up 45rwhp on a 99 cobra for 3600 bux and people say all day what a deal that car is to mod. Given the intial price differences on these two cars the BMW definatly is more expensive per HP, but not ridiculous given the cercumstances and comparitive price differences.
I am quite aware of the differences in RMS and peak power in audio equipment, while that is a somewhat fair anaology in all reality it doesnt apply here. Now if I could only find a performance shop to help me prove myself wrong? :help

chips arent going to gain you much on e46.

the exhaust system is you biggest restriction by far, youll get 20whp just by upgrading the exhaust system. intake should be worth 5. pullies worth 3-5.

the thing is that as you add to the exhaust and intake systems together youll remove both bottlenecks and the exhaust system will compliment the better flow of the intake system and vise versa.

i bet you would see 30whp.

Get the BHS headers for 1300 and weld in some high flow cats for say 300 and labor you are under 2000.

Where did you get that price for BHS headers? The best I've seen was Joel's Christmas special, and he was getting $1675 for them in January.

ive got every bolt on mod possible done to my s52 and only got 30whp.. cams are on the list but the gains from them alone are kind of disappointing after seeing the price tag..

All your guys points are correct and well taken. The price I got the on the euro headers was from someone else on the board quoting you could get them for about 500 ea from a bmw dealer. The details of this I unfortunatly do not recall. It was in some posts I read within the last month. Again, I have seen a car pick up 32rwhp with all these parts except the cai and pulleys. I dont think this is a guarantee, and I don't know the labor #'s to be right on. I was adding up prices on parts alone. I dont see how 35 to POSSIBLY 40rwhp with this combo isnt that far out of the question. Id really like to give it a try, but sometimes moding cars takes the fun out of them when it doesnt go right. Been down that road a few too many times before. Again look at the comparison. I picked up 45rwhp on a 99 cobra for 3600 bux and people say all day what a deal that car is to mod. Given the intial price differences on these two cars the BMW definatly is more expensive per HP, but not ridiculous given the cercumstances and comparitive price differences.
I am quite aware of the differences in RMS and peak power in audio equipment, while that is a somewhat fair anaology in all reality it doesnt apply here. Now if I could only find a performance shop to help me prove myself wrong? :help

You could very well get 30-40 hp out of it, just don't expect to be able to do it for 3 grand, that's my only point. The Euro headers aren't going to be any cheaper than aftermarket options such as Supersprint and BHS. Most shops will probably advise against doing a chop job on your mid-pipe to weld in cats, but I'm far from an expert on that topic so you're best off asking around.

There are plenty of shops around SoCal that can give you quotes, The M Shop in Glendale, EvoSport in Huntington Beach, Lucent Motors in West LA, etc.

I emailed BHS and they told me 1300.

I chopped my sec1 and sec 2 pipes and put 2.5 inch in and felt an increase in sound and power. Cant dyno it yet though because I need the chip and then I will be getting my headers at the same time and we will see how things go.

]Skyman:[/B] RMS and peak power in audio equipment, while that is a somewhat fair anaology in all reality it doesnt apply here

I'd have to disagree, it absolutely applies. The more power across the entire rev range is more total power, regardless of the peak. Joel at BHS even says his headers won't have as high a peak HP as say SS, but he claims they start raising the HP earlier in the rev range, and this makes more total power (that is his claim I haven't tested the two).

Some mods have higher peaks while others spread the power across the rev range better. The total increase in the area under the HP curve is more important to me than a short spike in HP. It makes the power more useable in everyday and performance driving.

If I can get a header/cat combo that also includes mounts for the O2 sensors for less than $2K - please tell me where.

If I can get a header/cat combo that also includes mounts for the O2 sensors for less than $2K - please tell me where.

Try fantasy island! :stickoutt

that's when you come to the point-wait a minute? for all the money i spent on it so far i could've bought a turbo/supercharger kit :eyecrazy :lol , Rob NJ.

We take street cars form 275-280 rwhp to 310+ all the time (over 40 crank gain). This is about the most you can do. Cams are rather worthless on a street motor right now. There is a new cam coming that will kick ass, but as of yet the Schricks are a total waste of time and money, same with larger t-bodies. Tried all this - nada!

We have a great group of product and tuning that makes this all work, let me know if we can help.

FYI - we did 324 rwhp on my s54 with 104 octane and STOCK motor (ie: NEVER opened up).

Thanks,
Brad

For under $3k, as the thread title says?

We have our header coming out this month (~$1500 for TBC coated), plus AFE intake and Powerchip and SS Race muffler and res delete. Retail is about $4.5k. So it is a little over, but not too far (ok, 50%). But still the value is there. Also, you can do without the mid pipe and intake, and still be really close in HP. Or use Magnaflow exhaust, and you are at about 3.5K.

the 3K is restrictive on the deal due to the header. However, the SS is 2000+ PLUS coating, so we are able to save some real dollars on that.

Thanks,
Brad

FYI - the only cats you are going to install for $300 are going to need to be re-installed MANY times. If you do not use metallic cats, you will blow them out - FAST. We sell the random tech ones (magnaflow) for $125 each and a super trick metallic one for $250 each. The metallic will last forever, the ceramic on the M3 - about a year - TOPS - is my experience.

Thanks,
Brad

cats are for nerds.

I kid I kid.

Thats some really good info Brad, thanks.

Is the header the most restrictive part of the Exhaust System? ...or perhaps the mid pipes?

The header seems to free up the most HP, yea. However, the first mod on the M3 makes a lot of power. If you do the header first, you will see 20HP, if you do it last, you will see 5HP.

The SS race muffler made 15 RWHP on our dyno - AFTER the header was on - wow!

Thanks,
Brad

OK Brad,
I've got an intake (K&N 63) and a muffler (AA), and software (AA). If I was just looking for headers & cats...

What's the price?
Any dynos?
What happens to the O2 sensors?
Any idea on emissions?

Feel free to PM me, or post (I'm sure the dyno, O2, and emissions may interest others).

Brad, sounds like a good deal? What about dyno time and installation? Do you have a car with a similar setup around there to take a listen to?

Just wondering if you had a side by side comparison of stock and modded dyno graphs to see the power under the curve.

Thanks
Skyler

We have our header coming out this month (~$1500 for TBC coated), plus AFE intake and Powerchip and SS Race muffler and res delete. Retail is about $4.5k. So it is a little over, but not too far (ok, 50%). But still the value is there. Also, you can do without the mid pipe and intake, and still be really close in HP. Or use Magnaflow exhaust, and you are at about 3.5K.

the 3K is restrictive on the deal due to the header. However, the SS is 2000+ PLUS coating, so we are able to save some real dollars on that.

Thanks,
Brad

Is that w/ no cats?

Yes, that is with no cats. Cats will add a bit depending on which route.

We just did this exact set-up on a car for the European Car article.

http://www.evosport.com/public/DSC00430_640x480.jpg (http://www.evosport.com)

This is the car from Rogue. We took it from its stock power and added this exact power package. 305 at the wheels on 91, 315 on 104 on our dynojet 248c.

Thanks,
Brad

hey brad do you have AIM so i could discuss this further with you

I am not on AIM, but call me on Monday (714.901.3100 x15). I will be out tomorrow testing at Willow a new race motor/AEM combo (S54).

Thanks,
Brad

I emailed BHS and they told me 1300.
t5hats interesting... i was quoted a MUCH MUCH MUCH MUCH higher price.

brad, we want more info on your headers!!! thanks!

OK, our headers are ver similar to the Supersprint V2. This is partially due to the fact that the V2 was designed with input from my company to Supersprint. Partially due to the design is just solid.

The key advantages and differences are:

1. Made in the USA. Be patriotic or be seflish, either way, this is a good thing. Less volitility due to exchange rates and less lead time waiting for product that has to cross the ocean.

2. Less $ (New SS retail is over $2200, ours will be $1899 with an intro/pre-order price of $1499)

3. Coating. Ours will have a true 2-stage thermal barrier coating. This lowers radiant heat 110 degrees in the engine bay at 1300 EGT temp and more at higher temps. This also accelerates the flow (less energy transfer to the metal in the header). This all means about 5hp more

4. Same evosport warranty and quality as our other products.

The first batch will be here in 2-3 weeks. About half are gone. These will be available with at most a two week lead time if they are ever out of stock.

I have no pics yet, but have pics of our MBZ headers if that is of interest.

Thanks,
Brad

I pulled a 292.73 (SAE corrected, 85 deg F, 1100 ft alt) with:
BHS pullies ($200)
AA Muffler & ECU ($1500 - may be as low as $1200 now)
K&N intake ($280)

I did not do a baseline, but most stock M3 dynos I've seen range from 265-275. This puts me at approx 360hp (Don't attack me - this is just a guess.)

So maybe 27 hp (@ crank) for $1680. :)

http://www.mindspring.com/~robert.mcdaniels/images/dyno-7_6.gif

Cool! We see most M3-s between 272 and 281 on a dynojet stock, FYI.

Those are some good results.

Add the software that we just did for that intake, and you are over 300. We got 299 with intake and ecu alone in a recent afe v k&n shootout.

Thanks,
Brad

RPM_m3...I have the same AA Muffler & ECU,I put down 275 in 5th.Are you getting 292 in 4th or 5th?

Cool! We see most M3-s between 272 and 281 on a dynojet stock, FYI.

Those are some good results.

Add the software that we just did for that intake, and you are over 300. We got 299 with intake and ecu alone in a recent afe v k&n shootout.

Thanks,
Brad

What software did you guys make? I was quoted $640 for a powerchip from you guys, which is $450 from powerchips, and 8 hrs for header install, and 8 hrs for coil overs which seemed a bit high to me. I was thinking of getting some stuff done, and getting your new headers, but thats a bit out of my affordability.

-Skyler

The software is powerchip, which is $640 from anyone. Not sure where you got $450, but that is not the correct price. That is below wholesale. I think there must have been a misunderstanding. Sorry about that.

We do charge 8 hours to do coil-overs, because that is what it takes to do it right. Yes, you can do it in less. But no, you cannot do it correctly, set the heights up, give a secondary free height adjustment, very sway settings, etc. in less. That is just what it takes us.

We charge REAL time to do things. Our labor might be quoted more then others as we do not try to lure you in with low prices then jack it up when the bill arrives. We also take GREAT care in what we do, which means that it takes longer then a tech at midas or a wheel/spring shop.

Thanks,
Brad

The software is powerchip, which is $640 from anyone. Not sure where you got $450, but that is not the correct price. That is below wholesale. I think there must have been a misunderstanding. Sorry about that.

We do charge 8 hours to do coil-overs, because that is what it takes to do it right. Yes, you can do it in less. But no, you cannot do it correctly, set the heights up, give a secondary free height adjustment, very sway settings, etc. in less. That is just what it takes us.

We charge REAL time to do things. Our labor might be quoted more then others as we do not try to lure you in with low prices then jack it up when the bill arrives. We also take GREAT care in what we do, which means that it takes longer then a tech at midas or a wheel/spring shop.

Thanks,
Brad

I know you guys do great work, wasnt tryin to be down on you. Some other guys had told me it took about half that time, I guess thats why I didnt understand. The $450 price I recieved was from emailing powerchips on their website??? I look foward to getting some stuff down there in the future with you guys. Thanks
SKyler

Skyler,

Sorry if it came out defensively, did not mean to "attack" back. Just wanted to clarify.

If you have a copy of that e-mail I will see if I can get it honored. I can tell you that if they did e-mail you that, they thought you had a different car. Powerchip never discounts and rarely sells direct. But again, I can get it honored most likley if you still have the mail!

Thanks,
Brad

RPM_m3...I have the same AA Muffler & ECU,I put down 275 in 5th.Are you getting 292 in 4th or 5th?

That was in 4th, but in addition to the AA muffler and ECU, I have BHS pulleys and K&N 63.

My setup yielded roughly a 15.5% increase in TQ and 14.5% HP over my stock (315).

It was an optimistic DynoJet but it was also 96 degrees and >50% humidity.

My .02. :D