I've been looking for an e30 m3 for a while now, but all the ads I see have them listed for way above their blue book value. I've done some research on KBB.com and Edmunds.com for all the years of the e30 m3 ('88-'91 right?). I put in 100K miles, and put the condition as "exellent" (mint)...private party values AND retail values on both sites did not exceed $10K. They were between $5k and $8k. So why do people think they can get so much more? I saw one on autotrader for around $16k....I sold my mint '95 m3 with 57k miles for that much! Can someone explain....?

Blue book values are a joke for this car and E36 M3s are a dime a dozen. The E30 M3 has been selling for over book value prices for a while. You cant find an M3 in excellent condition for book unless you get lucky. The reason for this is the limited number of production, and then the limited number of pure, original examples that are still around.

Many M3s have been thrashed at this point, or something as simple as a fender bender. A nice example will fetch $15,000 with no problems at all. $15,000 is the rule of tumb basically for a nice, well documented M3 w/ no issues. If you dont spend it up front, you will spend it bringing another car up to par.......

TeamZ4(Mark) just sold his 60,000 mile car for $20,000 when his asking price was lower. I think it took him less than two weeks to sell. I looked at a 50,000 mile car within the last 3 months that sold for $15,000 in a week (probably could have asked more)

Like someone said, there was only a limited production, as compared to the mass produced E36 M3. I have been looking for an original car with low miles and the ones that do pop up are going for the mid 20's, and are selling immediately. I think the difference with these cars is, even the nonhardcore bimmer fans know about these cars, and a collector who is familiar with the car will pay top dollar for a perfect example, so thats probably why even the thrashed cars are holding their value fairly well.

Exactly.

Blue book values don't work for rare or specialty "cult" cars.

its too bad, i would love to own one, but not willing to pay the premium. cant stomach paying 15k for a clean one when i just bought a 99 with 63k for $16.3k. perhaps a nice alternative would be a 325is maybe find the last year a 91 in mint condition for around 4-5k.....its not that hard to duplicate, or closely duplicate a e30 m3's performance by taking a 325is and spending a little money....................that is why people buy m3's right?? for there performance??? not always for there originality or rarity. for me a e30 has the feel and performace, but lacks the exotic sex appeal for the money. i would take a clean 325is for 4 grand over a similiar conditon/year m3 for $15k all day long.....if money is no object, yes an e30 is the preffered //M toy, but not my money. hand built 91-93 M5, these are worth the asking prices of sellers and are the better buys.

The M3 fetches a high price because of its exclusivity. A super clean example will run $15K, but it will usually have a fully sorted suspension. The 325is is also fairly rare, but not nearly so. If you pick up a $4K 325is, chances are you're going to have to give the suspension a once over.

I think people choose M3's for exclusivity and pedigree. It was a successful race car back in the day, and it's behavior on the track is/was great.

The M5 fetches a premium over its more common E28 and E34 brethren. However, these cars do not fetch nearly as much because when it comes rebuild time, the powerplant is UBER money. The M3's S14 is not that much cheaper to rebuild, but you're talking about 33% less cylinders! :D The S38 in the M5 is even more rare than an S14, and the parts are that much more rare. Also, I think the M5 is less track-oriented.

Fred

its too bad, i would love to own one, but not willing to pay the premium. cant stomach paying 15k for a clean one when i just bought a 99 with 63k for $16.3k. perhaps a nice alternative would be a 325is maybe find the last year a 91 in mint condition for around 4-5k.....its not that hard to duplicate, or closely duplicate a e30 m3's performance by taking a 325is and spending a little money....................that is why people buy m3's right?? for there performance??? not always for there originality or rarity. for me a e30 has the feel and performace, but lacks the exotic sex appeal for the money. i would take a clean 325is for 4 grand over a similiar conditon/year m3 for $15k all day long.....if money is no object, yes an e30 is the preffered //M toy, but not my money. hand built 91-93 M5, these are worth the asking prices of sellers and are the better buys.

have fun converting the 325 into an M3, it'll be fun trying to fit those fender flares on and dropping in the s14 so you can get some good weight distribution over that heavy 2.5 liter motor. e30 M3's aren't for everyone, some people just don't understand the appeal, they are the ones that go out and buy e36 M3's.

The M3 fetches a high price because of its exclusivity. A super clean example will run $15K, but it will usually have a fully sorted suspension. The 325is is also fairly rare, but not nearly so. If you pick up a $4K 325is, chances are you're going to have to give the suspension a once over.

I think people choose M3's for exclusivity and pedigree. It was a successful race car back in the day, and it's behavior on the track is/was great.

The M5 fetches a premium over its more common E28 and E34 brethren. However, these cars do not fetch nearly as much because when it comes rebuild time, the powerplant is UBER money. The M3's S14 is not that much cheaper to rebuild, but you're talking about 33% less cylinders! :D The S38 in the M5 is even more rare than an S14, and the parts are that much more rare. Also, I think the M5 is less track-oriented.
THe 325is is listed at 2 tenths of a second slower than the M3, plus you can modify the M20 engine a lot cheaper, so unless your looking for a specialty car for a collection, your better off finding a nice 325is, or an E36 M3. As far as finding a perfect E30 M3 for 15K Ill take two of them if you can find them for that price...
Fred
THe 325is is listed at 2 tenths of a second slower than the M3, plus you can modify the M20 engine a lot cheaper, so unless your looking for a specialty car for a collection, your better off finding a nice 325is, or an E36 M3. As far as finding a perfect E30 M3 for 15K Ill take two of them if you can find them for that price...

rare, demanded, historical, great body line, S14, bad-ass design...oh, did i mention the great body line (them wide body stance gets me all turned on..)...E36 M3s are faster (stock to stock), of course newer, but its all over the place...everybody got them...

i totally agree with mini-bubba...it isn't for everybody...you just have to trust us on this...believe me, you can fully modify an E30 "is" but its just not the same when an E30 M3 pulls up in the parking lot...we don't even have to rev up our motors anymore...people just understands automatically what the E30 M3 is all about....

THe 325is is listed at 2 tenths of a second slower than the M3, plus you can modify the M20 engine a lot cheaper, so unless your looking for a specialty car for a collection, your better off finding a nice 325is, or an E36 M3.

I think that this topic has been covered before, with similar arguments. Outright acceleration-wise the M3 may not hold much of an advantage, or handle 3 times better than a comparable condition 325is. However, for those who want something slightly different the E30 M3 is a fine choice.

As far as finding a perfect E30 M3 for 15K Ill take two of them if you can find them for that price... It all depends on your definition of perfect. If you want something with something like 60K or less on the clock it will cost you dearly. As you go up slightly in mileage, you can sometimes find a underpriced jewel. It's rare, but it happens! :)

.....its not that hard to duplicate, or closely duplicate a e30 m3's performance by taking a 325is and spending a little money....................


:lol ........you'll spend twice what the 325is cost you just to swap out the 4-lug for 5-lug and the 6banger for the buzzbomb.........Oh... and that buzzbomb will cost as much as the 325is you just purchased to convert.


T

Bottom line, the E30 M3 is years ahead of the 325is in terms of handling. A KP 325is turns slightly slower times then a JS M3. Run the M3 to prepared standards, and you are 4-6 seconds faster per lap at a track like WGI in the M3. How do I know? I have owned both (2 325is's and my current M3).

Down the back straight at WGI, the 325is would gasp around 115 MPH, while I hit 127 consistently in the M3 with similar levels of prep. 0-60 isnt worth shit when comparing these cars as the M3 wont wake up until 4k RPM's so long as the AFM is in there.

Will

A nice E30 325is will fetch around $6,000 to $8,000 around here. And E30 M3's in poor condition going for about $15,000 here. Chicago has such a bad market...

The E30 325is and M3 seem very similair at first. The M3 almost gives you a WTF feel. But once you start pushing both to the limits, the M3 is miles ahead of the 325is.

Yeah, i figured that's was the reason, the low production numbers, the cult folowing etc..

How do you think I'll like the e30 m3 (if i can ever come up with the money to get one) compared to my old e36 m?

They're are just different cars. Obviously the E36 is going to offer a lot more power, but from a handling standpoint the E30 is much better. Thats why you see so many of these cars setup for autocross. The weight of the 4 cylinder engine makes the car very nimble around corners. As far as straight line power, the E30 M3 doesnt seem fast at all, especially coming from an E36 M3.

i don't have too much experience with other types of sports cars, but my e30 m3 just makes me smile everytime i get behind the wheel. the combo of rear drive, light weight, and high revving motor is something you have to experience. i feel "connected" to the car; the motor, suspension, wheel, everything lets me know what's going on. i don't feel that same thing when driving my friends e36 m3, and he has a VERY nice suspension setup. but his car pulls like a freight train, which mine won't even think about till 4000rpm.

i bought my m3 last october for $7000. 73k on the motor and drivetrain, a slew of recently replaced parts, one DOT-R front fender, a few flaws in the paint but otherwise looks great, new tires, very nice leather seats, etc. the reason i bought it for so low is the chassis wiring harness was being replaced by the previous owner. he'd been experiencing weird electrical issues passed on from the first owner's stupid car stereo install. the interior was mostly pulled apart and was pretty scary looking.

so far i've probably put $1500 in various parts to freshen up 17yr old parts or other pieces that were missing completely. i've done all the labor myself and can actually say i've enjoyed it as i've learned all about the car. i do have the expertise of my friends at RRT to leverage for questions i have, and the invaluable SIG email group. i still don't have all the electricals working (power locks, cruise control, and ABS) but i haven't looked too much into those yet. i've been focusing on general maintenance items such as leaking intake gaskets, worn alternator bushings, and fixing crap the previous owners messed up. if i had to take it in to a shop i would be flat broke.

there's a reason this is an enthusiasts car. it takes time, money, and patience to keep it running well. all the bmw nuts i know either own one (or even two) or want one.

I just recently saw a 89 e30 in a NJ auto classified for $18,900
people who own these cars can almost name there price because
they are so rare...


jay

it's very simple why they are "overpriced"

it's called supply v demand.

They aren't overpriced, maybe one selling for $18-$20k is overpriced, but with these many selling these high is called market value. Simple economics

From my past 3 months of price research heres your general options.

Salvage cars start from 1k comeplete total, to 6500 for a basically rolling chassie
7-9k will get you something really rough with close to 200k
10-15 is ususaly around 150k generally good condition
15+ is ususally sub 100k and ususally mint.

They are not that "rare". Its easy to find one. Its even easy to find a clean one...but it will take a little digging. But you are right, every retard thinks his crusty E30 M3 is worth more than it is. The few that are sorted with low mileage or restored/rebuilds are worth it. Thats it.

However, there is an appreciation for these cars (i would argue that it is not growing) that is fairly stable. Hence, $15-20k for a nice one is the market. Anything else is really pointless unless you have a lot of time on your hands. They are old cars at this point, and they need attention.

I love the look and love a nice clean one when I see it. Their lines are classic BMW. :buttrock

Whats the price for a shell? basic roller, everything but engine/tranny/driveshaft?

I agree that the e30 m3 is a classic. It looks even cleaner if you retrofit some e46 lights in- very crisp.

Rerofit e46 lights???? Has this been? I would think it would look stupid. I got a roller for 2500, in portland though. And I think its missing the front fenders.

congrats.. i think that was the same guy who messaged me.
Hows it look? pics?

and i believe it was e46 lights that were retrofitted in the e30 m3.
they are most def not some e30 aftermarket piece.
it gives the m3 a fresher look.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v141/raoke/96793733.jpg

Ah cool, I see what you mean now by putting those lights in. Not sure on pics its funkmastas car hes been looking for a buyer, Ill talk to him when he gets back in town.

there was a diy on retrofitting the e46 projectors into the e36 housing, so i dont see why someone couldnt make a custom mount for an e30.

Not to Hijack the thread, but you guys seam to know alot about the E30 M3. Someone recently posted this kinda aimed at me.
E30 M3 > M Coupe.

Is this accurate?

Ehhhh...different, not necessarily better, not necessarily worse....just different.

If you have to ask why they command a higher price, you have not driven one, and therefore do not understand. It is a driver's car, and one that once you've driven you HAVE to have it. I've had all sorts of e30's over the years, and driven every type that was imported into the US. Nothing compares to the e30 M3. M50/S50 swapped cars are nothing to laugh at, but still can't compare to the e30 M3 with a S14 under the hood. Anyone who says differently either hasn't driven one, or they only care about bling-factor or drag racing.

If you have to ask why they command a higher price, you have not driven one, and therefore do not understand. It is a driver's car, and one that once you've driven you HAVE to have it. I've had all sorts of e30's over the years, and driven every type that was imported into the US. Nothing compares to the e30 M3. M50/S50 swapped cars are nothing to laugh at, but still can't compare to the e30 M3 with a S14 under the hood. Anyone who says differently either hasn't driven one, or they only care about bling-factor or drag racing.

Well put. But drivers car or not, 90% of the cars for sale are overpriced because they are beat to the ground and need a lot of care. I'd say only the pristine examples ($16-low 20k) are really worth it at this point...

$10-13k for a 100-150k mile E30 M3 (that likely needs control arms, suspension bushings, redone interior, minor paintwork, valve adjustment, misc do dads...) is overpriced IMO. And this is the majority of what you see.

...but that is what the car is worth to the owner. And if you want to get that car from the owner, that is what you have to pay. There are so many e36 M3's out on the market though in ALL sorts of shape, it is a buyer's market, not a seller's.

...but that is what the car is worth to the owner. And if you want to get that car from the owner, that is what you have to pay. There are so many e36 M3's out on the market though in ALL sorts of shape, it is a buyer's market, not a seller's.

Agreed. It is also a buyer's market for E30 M3's.

congrats.. i think that was the same guy who messaged me.
Hows it look? pics?

and i believe it was e46 lights that were retrofitted in the e30 m3.
they are most def not some e30 aftermarket piece.
it gives the m3 a fresher look.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v141/raoke/96793733.jpg
good lord i just popped nine boners

I wouldn't trade mine for anything. I had it about 8 years and runs like the day I bought it. :D

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y300/AnthonyM3/wax2.jpg

I wouldn't trade mine for anything. I had it about 8 years and runs like the day I bought it. :D

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y300/AnthonyM3/wax2.jpg
I have to say that I love a white E30 M. All that car needs is some newer styled wheels and its on. My buddy chuck just sold his red 90 M3 for $15k with M50 swap. The car was mint.

Thanks....

I would like some BBS RC's or e39 BBS 2 piece wheels.... 17"x8"s.

...but that is what the car is worth to the owner. And if you want to get that car from the owner, that is what you have to pay. There are so many e36 M3's out on the market though in ALL sorts of shape, it is a buyer's market, not a seller's.

What the owner thinks his car is worth does not necessarily equal it's value. Someone can think his car is worth $20,000 but if no one buys it, it isn't.

It's one thing when you see someone walking into the supermarket and ask how much to part with the car, everyone's got a price...and he mulls it over and comes up with what he thinks it's worth to him even though he had no intention of selling it. It's another thing when someone is advertising because they think their car is made from gold.

A "buyer's market" means that the buyer has leverage. If people stop paying inflated prices the owners will have to reduce their asking prices, or they won't sell their cars.

Its kinda funny. Kelly blue book is just a rag dealerships use to cheat you on your trade in. Its a big rip off. Any rare car is going to worth more. Look at my M coupe. The S54 M coupe (01,02)is as rare as they come (only 680 made) and its still holding its value at 10 grand more than the 2000 with the same miles. THey are going for 35K+ and KBB puts them around 20K. Ha, just wait. They will go up in value as they get even more rare.

E30M3s that are all original and well taken care of will aslo increase in value as they become more rare. How many were there total?

There are 3000 M coupes, 680 S54 M coupes... I wonder. The S52 M coupe is the greatest deal going now. Just wait.

I like seeing the high prices of the E30 M3. It shows what will happen in the future.

In the US, just under 5,000 were sold. I think the figure world-wide is something closer to 16,000 or so.

Will

M50/S50 swapped cars are nothing to laugh at, but still can't compare to the e30 M3 with a S14 under the hood. Anyone who says differently either hasn't driven one, or they only care about bling-factor or drag racing.
Nope, you're wrong. :D I'd love to have an E30 M3 with an S52 in it like the one in my E36M3... or even an S54.

Fact is that the cars are overpriced when thinking logically... but who does that when there are so many illogical people buying them?

Smooth - If the prices are so over-infalted by the seller's that are listing their cars for more than they SHOULD be worth, then why are people still buying them? Again, it is what the cars are worth to people. These cars are worth more to some people than they are to others. If you really think that the cars are being sold for too much, then maybe you aren't able to fully appreciate what they are. To some it is an expensive way to get from Point A to Point B. To others it is something that they can't even put into words. And THOSE are the people that are paying to $20K+ prices for the cars on a regular basis.

Nope, you're wrong. :D I'd love to have an E30 M3 with an S52 in it like the one in my E36M3... or even an S54.

Fact is that the cars are overpriced when thinking logically... but who does that when there are so many illogical people buying them?
OK, maybe the drag racing comment should be a bit more broad. But I figured that the point would have gotten across. The car is NOT about power. If you want to put a S52 under the hood, you might as well do that to a M20 powered car, since the engine mounting points are very similar. If you are doing a swap like that then you don't need the things that make the e30 M3 different from the regular e30's. The rear flares might be nice to handle some wider rubber, but everything else (except for the bodywork) can be had on a non-M car for a LOT less. But swapping out the motor is going to kill most of the handling advantages the e30 M3 has over the M20 powered cars anyway.

The e30 M3 performs as well as it does because of the way the car is balanced (and a few suspension tricks that can be retro-fitted to any e30). The e36 M3 performs as well as it does compared to regular e36 cars due to the motor (and again some little suspension tricks that can be retro-fitted to the non-M cars). The S14 did not hang over the nose as far as the M20 did, which (along with the lower weight of the S14) enabled it to handle better and be a more balanced car. It was designed to go track racing, pure and simple. So the motor built was very peaky and needed to be revved to make power, since it wouldn't really spend much time (if any) at low-mid rpms. This is part of the body and soul of the car. If you remove that motor and drop in a S52 which was designed and mass produced for the US market where torque is king (something that was absent in comparision on the S14), then you have basically ripped the car's soul out. The motor in an e36 M3 (US Spec) is basically a bored and stroked out 325/328 motor (depending on the year). It has a single throttle body, hydraulic lifters that do not enable it to rev as high as the solid lifter motors can AND THE SAME WEIGHT BALANCE IN THE CAR AS ANY 6 CYLINDER non-M E36 CAR! It is a motor built (by BMW's admission) for the stop-light driving that is most prevelant in the US. It is NOT a race motor, and does not belong in a car bred for racing. The motor can be raced, but it is not DESIGNED for it like the S14 was. The US e36 M3, although a very nice car and very capable in most any hands, was never designed to go racing as the e30 M3 was. It was mass produced for as many people as the BMW execs thought they could sell it to, instead if limited numbers to qualify for the rules of DTM racing. The only real 'rare' US e36 M3 is the '95 Lightweight, and look at what kind of prices those cars are selling for.

Will a S52 powered e30 M3 be faster than a S14 powered one, sure. Will it handle better, suspension mods equal between the two, no. Will it still be a car built to a certain specification to go racing in DTM where it had a successful racing career, not anymore. It will just be another e30 chassis car that someone has dropped another newer motor into to go fast and no longer the homoligation special that BMW released to the public so they could race in and win the DTM.

It's just a car... a car.

I can tell you from a person looking for a low mileage E30 M3, they are being bidded up and over their asking price and selling within days. I have missed two cars with low miles that have gone over 26 grand!!! These cars were limited production cars, and there is a big difference between a well taken care of original car and a normal wear and tear driver, with over 100K on the clock. You can find the normal driver cars for around 10 grand in decent condition. A perfect low mileage example easily sells for 26 and up.

It's just a car... a car.

You have obviously never owned one. Unless you do, you won't understand.

Smooth - If the prices are so over-infalted by the seller's that are listing their cars for more than they SHOULD be worth, then why are people still buying them? Again, it is what the cars are worth to people. These cars are worth more to some people than they are to others. If you really think that the cars are being sold for too much, then maybe you aren't able to fully appreciate what they are. To some it is an expensive way to get from Point A to Point B. To others it is something that they can't even put into words. And THOSE are the people that are paying to $20K+ prices for the cars on a regular basis.



Interesting personal attack, but you didn't address real market issues. The price can only go as high as the market will bear. My statement in regard to that has little to nothing to do with whether I personally "appreciate" the driving experience in an M3.

Unless you know what I own or have driven in the past, don't you think it's a bit presumptuous to question my appreciation for an M3 or any BMW for that matter?

You have obviously never owned one. Unless you do, you won't understand.
Owned, no, driven yes. The lack of power in such an awesome handling car is horrible. Now put a real motor in it and THAT's a car to have and enjoy.

Some people love over reving a motor to get the power out of it. Personally I hate 4 cylinder, and small sixes for that matter, but its not completely about power. If your looking for power complimented by decent handling you can get into a perfect E36 M3 for the same money as a perfect E30. I dont think the E30 blows away the E36 in handling, and the E36 is a great driving car. Its great on the highway and through the turns. Those who think an E30 M3 is fast havent driven an E36. I recently read an article where it said you would find it hard pressed to pass a 325e if both were cruising under 4000 rpms.

I traded my Evo-2 powered E30 M3 to my business partner, Barry. He and I ran side by side on the Toll Road from a 60MPH roll, me in my modded 95 M3, him in the E30 M3. He started in 4th, I was in 3rd, and I barely pulled a car length up to 100. If he bothered to start in 3rd, he would have been right there with me. Sure, the STOCK 2.3L S14 is a little anemic until 5000, but just an intake cam, headers, and compression are the only difference to an Evo-2 engine (approx 215HP in Euro non-cat trim, probably 205HP in the car right now).

Sure, a lot of 'ratty' E30 M3s are still asking $12k for something that needs $3k of work, but that silly $15,000 rule I proffered years ago seems to be getting around. ;) Sorry if I have assisted in inflating prices on old E30 M3s, but I, too, am an illogical buyer/seller/owner in the E30 M3 market. If I were to sell the E30 M3 to anyone else other than my friend w/ Evo-2 motor, Evo-3 front splitter (OE complete), CR 5-speed, bad paint, worn leather, no power steering (too lazy to fix it), and stock, worn shocks and springs, I'd STILL ask $14k, expecting offers of $12,500 to $13,500. And that's with 190k miles on the clock now!

Prices are high because it is getting harder and harder to find good E30 M3s nowadays. Here is mine. It has 74,000 miles.
http://photos13.flickr.com/17493929_46d0d147ca.jpg

Interesting personal attack, but you didn't address real market issues. The price can only go as high as the market will bear. My statement in regard to that has little to nothing to do with whether I personally "appreciate" the driving experience in an M3.

Unless you know what I own or have driven in the past, don't you think it's a bit presumptuous to question my appreciation for an M3 or any BMW for that matter?There was no personal attack in there, please explain to me where I was attacking you. I was responding to what you had individually said, debating the points. I was not calling you names nor trying to slander you. I did say that if you think the prices are over-inflated then perhaps your view of WHY the cars are commanding so much money is skewed. The only reason for this view would be if you can not appreciate the car for what it is, a rare factory built racer for the street. This DOES directly affect the market value of the car, as can be seen by the people who DO desire these cars and are willing to pay more than the sum of all the parts of the car.

The cars are worth what people are willing to pay for them. If you are not willing to pay what other people are willing to pay, then you do not appreciate it as much as they do (filthy rich people aside). It sounded like you thought they should be worth less than they are being sold for.
What the owner thinks his car is worth does not necessarily equal it's value. Someone can think his car is worth $20,000 but if no one buys it, it isn't.But people ARE buying the cars for this much. Not just one or two, but a LOT of e30 M3's are being sold in this range. The sellers might be creeping the prices up (based on some cherry examples going for lots more), but if the buyers are still scooping them up at those prices, then that starts to become the value of the car. This isn't just the sellers thinking the cars are worth that much, the buyers think it too, or else they wouldn't be buying them. Like it or not, that is how the market works.

If you don't like how high the prices are for e30 M3's, get people to stop buying them at the higher dollar amounts. Eventually people that are wanting to sell will have to drop the prices to what people are willing to pay. But until that type of a 'protest' can be organized, the cars will still continue to be bought for higher prices since there are people out there WILLING to buy the cars for that much. It means that much to them.

BTW, I had said MAYBE you aren't able to appreciate it for what it is, I did not say that you DO NOT. It was not a presumption, but rather a guess as to your train of thought of why the market is skewed. It isn't skewed if buyers ARE paying these prices, not just random sellers listing cars at twice what they could actually get.

In the beginning of my search for one of these cars I believed they were somewhat overpriced as well, but not anymore, there just is so few in the condition I am looking for, and there is a ton, I mean a ton of people waiting to pay 25-30 grand for the perfect car, they are getting snatched up as soon as they hit the market.

I can tell you from a person looking for a low mileage E30 M3, they are being bidded up and over their asking price and selling within days. I have missed two cars with low miles that have gone over 26 grand!!! These cars were limited production cars, and there is a big difference between a well taken care of original car and a normal wear and tear driver, with over 100K on the clock. You can find the normal driver cars for around 10 grand in decent condition. A perfect low mileage example easily sells for 26 and up.

My 91 has 38k miles and is (Its being serviced now) about as perfect as I can make it.

More for curiosity I put a feeler ad on the bimmer cars section asking, say, $26k or so..

Got 4 serious PMs in 2 days. What does that tell you? (No, Im not selling it)

Whats with the David Hasselhoff pictures??

Does he really have fans??

Whats with the David Hasselhoff pictures??

Does he really have fans??

then entire country of germany is a fan

Smooth - If the prices are so over-infalted by the seller's that are listing their cars for more than they SHOULD be worth, then why are people still buying them? Again, it is what the cars are worth to people. These cars are worth more to some people than they are to others. If you really think that the cars are being sold for too much, then maybe you aren't able to fully appreciate what they are. To some it is an expensive way to get from Point A to Point B. To others it is something that they can't even put into words. And THOSE are the people that are paying to $20K+ prices for the cars on a regular basis.


OK, maybe the drag racing comment should be a bit more broad. But I figured that the point would have gotten across. The car is NOT about power. If you want to put a S52 under the hood, you might as well do that to a M20 powered car, since the engine mounting points are very similar. If you are doing a swap like that then you don't need the things that make the e30 M3 different from the regular e30's. The rear flares might be nice to handle some wider rubber, but everything else (except for the bodywork) can be had on a non-M car for a LOT less. But swapping out the motor is going to kill most of the handling advantages the e30 M3 has over the M20 powered cars anyway.

The e30 M3 performs as well as it does because of the way the car is balanced (and a few suspension tricks that can be retro-fitted to any e30). The e36 M3 performs as well as it does compared to regular e36 cars due to the motor (and again some little suspension tricks that can be retro-fitted to the non-M cars). The S14 did not hang over the nose as far as the M20 did, which (along with the lower weight of the S14) enabled it to handle better and be a more balanced car. It was designed to go track racing, pure and simple. So the motor built was very peaky and needed to be revved to make power, since it wouldn't really spend much time (if any) at low-mid rpms. This is part of the body and soul of the car. If you remove that motor and drop in a S52 which was designed and mass produced for the US market where torque is king (something that was absent in comparision on the S14), then you have basically ripped the car's soul out. The motor in an e36 M3 (US Spec) is basically a bored and stroked out 325/328 motor (depending on the year). It has a single throttle body, hydraulic lifters that do not enable it to rev as high as the solid lifter motors can AND THE SAME WEIGHT BALANCE IN THE CAR AS ANY 6 CYLINDER non-M E36 CAR! It is a motor built (by BMW's admission) for the stop-light driving that is most prevelant in the US. It is NOT a race motor, and does not belong in a car bred for racing. The motor can be raced, but it is not DESIGNED for it like the S14 was. The US e36 M3, although a very nice car and very capable in most any hands, was never designed to go racing as the e30 M3 was. It was mass produced for as many people as the BMW execs thought they could sell it to, instead if limited numbers to qualify for the rules of DTM racing. The only real 'rare' US e36 M3 is the '95 Lightweight, and look at what kind of prices those cars are selling for.

Will a S52 powered e30 M3 be faster than a S14 powered one, sure. Will it handle better, suspension mods equal between the two, no. Will it still be a car built to a certain specification to go racing in DTM where it had a successful racing career, not anymore. It will just be another e30 chassis car that someone has dropped another newer motor into to go fast and no longer the homoligation special that BMW released to the public so they could race in and win the DTM.


I always respect your opinion on the S14, seeing as you've owned the M3, E30 318is, and kicked ass in the 4cyl E21 in auto-x. I think low-mileage, or special edition M3's need to keep the S14. Most others are subject to a swap. :stickoutt The S14 in a 318is, now :redspot

Well, you DO have a bit of an unfair advantage there though Stu, you've driven your brother's car which is well sorted out from what I've been told. Did you ever get to drive it before the swap? And what condition WAS it in? I know that he had the 'bearing issue' that the S14's tend to have, but was it really strong before that? That is something to take into account.

But anyway, I SUPPOSE that you do have a point with the special edition or low mileage examples. The S14 is very expensive to maintain and rebuild. But the car really just isn't the same with a more powerfull but weight hindered motor. I know that there are ways to get the twin cam Six family of motors down to even LESS weight than the S14 (as you and your brother both have IIRC), but that STILL puts weight out in front of the wheels that steer, and that does screw with your turn-in ability.

OK, I'll admit it, I'm just an ///M snob! :stickoutt


BTW, where have you been? I haven't had a good debate in a while on BMW subjects (save for this thread).

Well, you DO have a bit of an unfair advantage there though Stu, you've driven your brother's car which is well sorted out from what I've been told. Did you ever get to drive it before the swap? And what condition WAS it in? I know that he had the 'bearing issue' that the S14's tend to have, but was it really strong before that? That is something to take into account.

But anyway, I SUPPOSE that you do have a point with the special edition or low mileage examples. The S14 is very expensive to maintain and rebuild. But the car really just isn't the same with a more powerfull but weight hindered motor. I know that there are ways to get the twin cam Six family of motors down to even LESS weight than the S14 (as you and your brother both have IIRC), but that STILL puts weight out in front of the wheels that steer, and that does screw with your turn-in ability.

OK, I'll admit it, I'm just an ///M snob! :stickoutt


BTW, where have you been? I haven't had a good debate in a while on BMW subjects (save for this thread).


True, but the M50's are shorter motors (1pc head), which is advantageous. :stickoutt
I was 16-17 when Alex had the S14 in his M3, didn't drive it much that I remember, only occasionally when he'd let me. It was fast and I loved the sound. The S50 scared me though, on the test drive.

Havn't been posting as much, mostly just reading threads, and keeping my mouth shut. :stickoutt

Wow, you guys get worked up over that S14. I dont really think of the M50B32 as a real M engine either. But its more cost effective. Hey, I have a true M motor. Individual throttle bodies and all, and guys with the M50B30, or M52B32 try to tell me that there isnt much difference between the two engines. Go figure.

It's just the nature of the car. The buyer and the market has nothing to do with setting the price. It's the fact that people want it and the sellers knows it. There are a lot of overpriced examples out there but I think $10-15K is just about right for it. Sellers jacking up the price is one thing but the actual value of the car is still mostly based on it's condition and rarerity.

Owning one has been a priviledge I've been lucky to have before I had to sell it and up to now I'm still looking for one (this time a clean-titled white one) but so far no luck for me. People say all sorts of thing about it (underpowered, interior the same as regular E30, etc..) but seeing this car in your garage, driving it hard through the turns and getting all the attention from avid BMW enthusiast who knows what the history and significance on this rare gem is just priceless. All kinds of things are done to this car like crazy (motor swap, interior retrofitting, wheels upgrade, headlight,tailights conversion, etc...) but nothing beats an "all original" example. Stock everything, just clean in and out gets me all turned on. But none of these makes sense to someone who does not agree that the E30 M3 is the best car BMW ever put into production!

if you cant understand, maybe you dont know enough about them. and after some research and other stuff, if you still dont get it, go rebuy an e36.

if you cant understand, maybe you dont know enough about them. and after some research and other stuff, if you still dont get it, go rebuy an e36.

Shahe your car looks extremely raw with those wheels :buttrock LM's? Kenesis? What are the specs on them?

To me e30 M3 are like harleys, you can point that other bikes will out accelerate, outhandle and do it at a cheaper price but there will always be old farts with money willing to pay redicoulus amounts for them just because they like the look, feel or percieved status of owning one.

I think the prices will continue to climb.

Shahe your car looks extremely raw with those wheels :buttrock LM's? Kenesis? What are the specs on them?

bbs magnisium modulars. three piece center is mag'ed out yO! i think they are a hair over 17 lbs for 17x8