I am thinking about the mechtech turbo system with upgraded AA intake ellbow arm. DOes anyone know the reliability of this system and any input is welcome. I know some people say its not a very well built kit . COuld you please explain why thanx in advance. :b_blue:

I think Brad D at dtmpower will answer all of your questions regarding the hardware and software issues of the mechtech turbo.

thanx

Originally posted by Advan///M3
I am thinking about the mechtech turbo system with upgraded AA intake ellbow arm. DOes anyone know the reliability of this system and any input is welcome. I know some people say its not a very well built kit . COuld you please explain why thanx in advance. :b_blue:

Stay away from this place, it is the joke of all forced induction. My system is completely tweaked and customized AFTER I spent all that money for the kit.

They do shoddy work, and the car would detonate...A LOT.

Save your money.

The turbo itself is generally ok. I changed several things on plumbing to improve on them. Brad is correct that their tuning is only good for an approximation to let the car run on low boost until you can get someone else to tune it properly.

Originally posted by jsp98m3
The turbo itself is generally ok. I changed several things on plumbing to improve on them. Brad is correct that their tuning is only good for an approximation to let the car run on low boost until you can get someone else to tune it properly.

Agreed...6psi is fine...don't go over that and expect MechTech to know how to deal with it.

Their plumbing and fuel system is inadequate for anything higher.

:b_blue: I actually was only thinking about purchasing the kit without getting the system installed by mechtech. I actually live in n. cali and have couple of turbo tune shops i was looking at to install the system. So is the problem the kit itself or mechtech themselve tunning the car improperly?? thanx..

It's more related to the tuning. The kit itself and in particular the turbo and intercooler quality are fine. The intercooler isn't good for more than 9 psi though, it would have to be larger to accomodate hgher boost. Other than that, it's fine. It's the tuning that isn't adequate.

I don't know what they have for instructions at this point, my system is several years old. You might want to pay them for the install manual and see what your shop thinks of it.

Also, if you aren't going to run more than 7 or 8 psi, you might want to consider a Dinan SC. With the latest pulleys and software those are doing real well and have virtually NO fiddling required. Most turbos need some from time to time.

Originally posted by Advan///M3
:b_blue: I actually was only thinking about purchasing the kit without getting the system installed by mechtech. I actually live in n. cali and have couple of turbo tune shops i was looking at to install the system. So is the problem the kit itself or mechtech themselve tunning the car improperly?? thanx..

I'm gonna have to say not to do it. I have been through HELL with mine...and my car detonates even at 7psi without some racing fuel added to each tank.

Save your money and get somthing that can be tuned properly.

Let's step back and ask what year this is for. The '99s are extremely finicky on fuel for some reason. I'm not disagreeing with what Brad is saying, just that there are lots of issues with BMWs with stock compression. Brad, did you get the AA head spacer on your rebuild or the 2mm BMP head gasket? The gasket would have helped up to about 8 psi and the spacer from AA would be good for an unknown limit, probably about 12.

Get the Aquamist system and you should be in good shape. What pisons are you running now?

Originally posted by jsp98m3
Let's step back and ask what year this is for. The '99s are extremely finicky on fuel for some reason. I'm not disagreeing with what Brad is saying, just that there are lots of issues with BMWs with stock compression. Brad, did you get the AA head spacer on your rebuild or the 2mm BMP head gasket? The gasket would have helped up to about 8 psi and the spacer from AA would be good for an unknown limit, probably about 12.

Get the Aquamist system and you should be in good shape. What pisons are you running now?

Jim I am on stock internals and I am running Aquamist. Car still detonates without race gas. Mines a 98.

More information on the spacer please!!

Brad, those pistons are going to shatter like mine did. Sooner or later. AA sells a copper (I think) spacer to go between the head and the block. It's 4mm think and will drop compression to about 8.0-8.5:1. It's not as good as dishing the pistons but it's close enough not to matter much. Think about getting it.

Brad, how is your air/fuel mixture? It sounds like you may be leaning out.

I believe Brad was getting his dyno pulls at MechTech. From what I've been seeing on his graphs, it doesnt show any A/F ratios.

EvoSport/SHOShop has a dynojet and they also connect an O2 sensor to my bung port for A/F ratio readings on my exhaust. I get 11:1 - 11.7:1 and stays flat!

Originally posted by Jon Caldito
I believe Brad was getting his dyno pulls at MechTech. From what I've been seeing on his graphs, it doesnt show any A/F ratios.

EvoSport/SHOShop has a dynojet and they also connect an O2 sensor to my bung port for A/F ratio readings on my exhaust. I get 11:1 - 11.7:1 and stays flat!

John-

I am going to get my car dyno'd there....but it's the ignition I believe...AA made my software for MechTech as they do for all the cars now.

I'll post the results when I do.

Leave the Mechtech alone!!!!! If you want FI and your in Cali. go with a supercharger. AA is the only one that sells a quality kit with software to back it up with. Leave Jim McFarlands crap alone you will be sorry. I had a Mechtech and went with AA. I agree totally with Brad D. he had the same problems I had.

Originally posted by slvr98 M
Leave the Mechtech alone!!!!! If you want FI and your in Cali. go with a supercharger. AA is the only one that sells a quality kit with software to back it up with. Leave Jim McFarlands crap alone you will be sorry. I had a Mechtech and went with AA. I agree totally with Brad D. he had the same problems I had.

Thanks for thr backup bro-Honestly of all 10 people I know that have MechTech there are only 2 that don't completely hate it, one is Jim Powell and the other is Doug I believe is his name.

Everyone else has blown engines or detonation or somthing similar.

i don't have their stuff , but i'll tell you this - I would NEVER EVER EVER leave my car with them and leave. My buddies have shops on the same block as MechTech and to say they rape cars on "tuning" runs would be an understatment.

I hear stories of a couple totalled RX7's and lately a Lexus that carenned into a wall during a tuning run.

No way no how for me.

So that's why Jim makes customers run to the parking lot when he lets one rip. - Beau

Originally posted by AgileM3

I hear stories of a couple totalled RX7's and lately a Lexus that carenned into a wall during a tuning run.

No way no how for me.

None of this would surprise me.

Yes, I am happy with my installation in general. The car lasted for 22,000 ttrack miles with stock internals and only gave up the ghost to California's new 91 octane gas. Oh well. It's only money.

But I suspect that I got a bit of pecial treatment on the install and tuning. Plus I did a lot of research and stood over them while they did everything.

Do I recommend Mechtech? No, not unless you do the install or at least the tuning elsewhere.

Do I recommend AA? Yes, generally. Especially if you live close enough to take the car there. Would I go through shipping the car cross country and paying 12K total to have it installed? No way in hell. I'd sell the M3 and use the money to buy a used Porsche Turbo and have the power designed in from the factory.

In general I recommend that 80% of buyers get a Dinan SC. Most of the power. All of the warranty, none of the headaches.

In general I recommend that 80% of buyers get a Dinan SC. Most of the power. All of the warranty, none of the headaches

As a thoroughly satisified owner of such a system, I concur with what Jim is saying. And, if you want more power, its an easy task of using a 1" larger crank pulley, which will develop about 3 more psi than the out-of-the-box system, which is good for 50 to 60 rhwp. Add an aquamist system, and detonation will be a thing of the past. EGT values for non track use will remain under 1450 degrees, and if you have the dinan software, you should not have fueling issues. No fiddling has been required on mine, like Jim said, and its been perfect for over 35,000 miles. I have to add that my results have been achieved in Non Track use only!

Originally posted by paul e


As a thoroughly satisified owner of such a system, I concur with what Jim is saying. And, if you want more power, its an easy task of using a 1" larger crank pulley, which will develop about 3 more psi than the out-of-the-box system, which is good for 50 to 60 rhwp. Add an aquamist system, and detonation will be a thing of the past. EGT values for non track use will remain under 1450 degrees, and if you have the dinan software, you should not have fueling issues. No fiddling has been required on mine, like Jim said, and its been perfect for over 35,000 miles. I have to add that my results have been achieved in Non Track use only!


I like that about the Supercharger systems, but what I don't like is the lack of changing boost levels on the fly, and also that the torque levels are much lower than turbocharger values.

It was a hard decision.

Originally posted by Brad D.



I like that about the Supercharger systems, but what I don't like is the lack of changing boost levels on the fly, and also that the torque levels are much lower than turbocharger values.

It was a hard decision.

Why the big desire to be able to change boost levels on the fly? Seems to me, if you can set the car up to run reliably at the peak boost level you wish to run, you can then modulate the power with the right foot.

I can understand the desire to muck with it for racing conditions (race gas, etc), and maybe having a "valet" or "kid" mode, but these are really irrelevant to most people.

What's the attraction?

Steve

Seems to me, if you can set the car up to run reliably at the peak boost level you wish to run, you can then modulate the power with the right foot.

Yea Steve, I kind of agree...I know for instance that my car will make just over 11 psi at about 7K rpms...So if I want 11 psi worth of power, to the redline it goes..Only want like 8 psi worth of power? Then just drive it to whatever rpm level produces it? And so on....Its not like a turbo where the boost is much more dynamic...With a linnear blower setup its easy to produce whatever power you want, on the fly, with the right foot...

Well,

I guess I'm not the only one with misfire / detonation problems. After getting my head ported... greatly opening up the exhaust ports... I make a mininum of 7-8 psi. Stock pistons, 89 octane fuel (Korean premium), FMU, remapped ECU and even with the Aquamist.... the car misfires and goes into injector shut off mode every couple of days. Worked pretty good at 5 psi.

Anyways.. I just picked up a set of 440 cc injectors and I have a Haltech E6K and unlimited dyno time available. The question is should I cross that bridge now? Or can someone really tune the stock ECU to work with my setup and larger injectors and no FMU.

I need more power.... the wife is making me sell my 400+ RWHP RX-7 and even she thinks that the Z3 has no b@lls on the highway.

Are you using a Mechtech Turbo?

Originally posted by stimpee


Why the big desire to be able to change boost levels on the fly? Seems to me, if you can set the car up to run reliably at the peak boost level you wish to run, you can then modulate the power with the right foot.

I can understand the desire to muck with it for racing conditions (race gas, etc), and maybe having a "valet" or "kid" mode, but these are really irrelevant to most people.

What's the attraction?

Steve

The attraction is being able to dial in increased boost levels without doing major work. Also like I said, with these superchargers, big torque numbers just don't happen.

The atttaction is not merely an attraction on a AA turboed car its smart. Air density levels change from winter to summer as we all know. When the air density changes so does the response from the turbo. Colder temperatures will bring higher boost levels at the same setting in the summer time. My Profec B boost controller set at the 10 o'clock position in the winter will bring the same psi at the 1 o'clock position in the summer.

I love the ability to adjust my boost on the fly as well as turn it off completely and run 5 psi if I have to leave it at the dealership or with some punk valet or at low boost at 8 psi. But generally I keep it at high boost at 12 psi. (Just in case).

If you want more power, into the deep end of the pool you go, you know that :)

Colder temperatures will bring higher boost levels at the same setting in the summer time...My Profec B boost controller set at the 10 o'clock position in the winter will bring the same psi at the 1 o'clock position in the summer.

We all know we make more power in the winter than in the summer. But why then does my boost gauge register the same 11.5 psi at redline in Both summer AND winter?

Because the pressure is the same.

And you shouldn't have to manually change anything if the system is set right in the beginning. Denser winter air should be compensated for with more fuel. More power will result but the pressure is the same to the turbo.

>>Because the pressure is the same<<

Thanks Jim...Thats what I thought....How then do we account for this statment from slvr98M?

>>My Profec B boost controller set at the 10 o'clock position in the winter will bring the same psi at the 1 o'clock position in the summer. <<

I don't have that controller so I don't know.

But in a static system, the air density affects how much o2 is in the charge, but the system doesn't know if you are blowing hot air or cold air, it blows X psi of whatever it is.

The reason being is because the supercharger is belt driven so you will get a constant amount no matter what. Yes in the winter time the boost may go up by 2-3 lbs. the most but that is it. Its mechanically driven. Thats why its called linear.

A turbo on the other hand is driven by a free wheel, the exponential change in a turbo is different than a supercharger. Its driven by exhaust energy, so the air density has a greater role in the amount of pressure it produces. As far as a boost controller goes there is a boost controller that will compensate for greater atmospheric changes than the one I am currently using. Do I want it? No for what reason.

To answer your question the pressure is not the same, its constant on a SC because you have a belt and RPM's to determine your power.

Denser winter air being compensated with more fuel will create more power. Its defeating the purpose of a boost controller. I dont want to blow up engines and head gaskets and have ungodly repair bills because Im expecting the engine to maintain a certain amount of boost all of the time. I want to have full control over everything that happens. You run your Supercharger in the winter and the boost creeps to a point where the head gasket cant take it and there goes your bank account. You cant control it with that system.

Besides you bought your supercharger for your reasons I bought my turbo for my reasons they are two diiferent animals, you cannot compare the both. They are similar in some ways others they are different its just the nature of the beast.

Besides the system does know whether the air is hot or cold or dense or less dense. Thats the purpose of the air mass meter.

Interesting...

When I was running the mitsubishi turbo cars, I was using a simple ball-spring boost controller that I made, and it maintained consistent boost regardless of atmoshperic conditions (within .5 psi on my gauge).

I know that air density changes with temp and humidity, however the boost controllers work based on differential pressure only. They should consistently provide a given boost differential relative to ambient...

Steve

The feedback loop only sees pressure. The HFM reads density, two entirely different things.

The reason for the change in settings is likely related to boost creep issues.

That is very true Mr. Powell, The reason for the change in settings is likely related to boost creep issues

Like I said before there are boost controllers out there that will compensate for atmospheric changes, and control boost creep thats why they were developed. Some boost controllers may hold the boost better than others.

Maybe I will bring that to Karl's attention when I return to AA to upgrade to 450-470 RWHP and 450tq. I would be controlling it from 17-19 psi instead of 12. I will see if he can install a different boost controller.

slvr98 M,

Yes, I am running a MechTech turbo.

Cheuk I had the same problems you had with that Mechtech I kept my Peake reset tool in my back pocket everytime I drove the car when I had that turbo kit. Check engine lights time and time again and thats with the exact kit out of the box as per instruction
from Jim McFarland himself. You see what I did, I took that damn thing off.

I even took my car to AA to have them tune the Mechtech. They took off half the shit the original turbo came with, tuned it made it run better and still had problems.

Suggestion #1: Remove item from car
Suggestion #2: Install supercharger
Suggestion #3:Install AA turbo

Weird.

I run 11 psi+ all the time, do most of the tuning by seat of the pants and don't get CE lights except for the occassional time that I drive so slow that I can't get the rear O2 sensors heated up in time to pass. This is caused by not even having cats on the car and I'm not running a fake circuit.

People need to remember that these systems have fairly significant differences in design goals.

And the dirty secret is that AA nor McFarland have the system figured out. If they did there wouldn't be so many kludges that they don't tell customers that they use.

O2 sensor fakes, HFM resistor boxes, OBDI conversions, signal clamps....

And that's just the big ones.

Yeah your probably right, I have the OBD1 conversion as well. But everyone must remember the BMW M3 was not designed with a turbo. It was not a factory option it wasnt something you just called your local BMW dealer and asked for so the goals that you me and everyone else are trying to achieve are much more difficult than say a Twin Turbo Toyota Supra where they already have something to work with. We are starting from ground zero and have to make special provisions to make certain systems work properly. You made special provisions from what Mechtech called for as well. Its just that some make a turbo system or even a supercharger work better than others, not calling any names here.

Thats where the cost and the headaches come into play. Jim, you have had your headaches just as I had. We could have simply purchased a Supra or even a 911 Porsche and saved half of the stress and aggravation associated with what we did. But thats whats so unique about it.

True dat!

And the dirty secret is that AA nor McFarland have the system figured out. If they did there wouldn't be so many kludges that they don't tell customers that they use.

The beautiful thing is that it works fine! I have had zero problems with air or fuel delievery.

I didnt want to be the one to say it, glad someone else did.:clap:

Agreed. It's a fine system that finds a way to work well.

Whoops.. i actually did had one tiny problem. Clamp got loose after the air mass sensor and had unmetered air going into the engine. The M3 would stall and not idle. Installation error on my part.

It worked great for me at 5 psi. I guess the bandaids couldn't cover the systems shortcomings at higher boost levels.

I'm not keen on adding a supercharger or switching to AA. I am sure it is a lack of ECU / fuel and timing tuning that is the cause of the problem. That's why I am considering a stand alone. With a well tuned Haltech, I don't think I will even need my Aquamist system.

Buying that turbo kit was a mistake, no doubt about it. I will never change my story on this.

For you, yes.

There are different design goals for everyone.

Brad, do not buy into the mantra of one system being the end all of everything.

Let me tell you something, you can get to goals in different ways. My car has a Mechtech system, of course. It lasted for 22,000 track miles with no problems whatsoever. Only showing off on a tank of 91 octane gas did it in. Even then with the right fuel management, I would have been fine. And I could have done it on the fly. But I didn't. I made the mistake.

Now you may not be able to get your car to work correctly with the Mechtech, but others have. AA has been around for a long time. There are plenty of them running out here but I've had many GREAT instructors at BMW events tell each other and me that my car was an absolute monster to drive. Sherman Koo, who is not a shabby driver in anyone's book, said he was afraid to drive it because of the massive torque. At one time I had it set to deliver over 500 lb feet of torque. These people have certainly driven AA cars many, many times and were astounded at the Mechtech. It's all in the setup.

I don't know why your car pings so badly. I've ridden with you in it and it pings where it shouldn't. It doesn't have enough fuel from what you sent me and I don't know why on that either. I didn't hear all of the conversations with you and McFarland or McFarland and AA. But I do agree with you that you shouldn't go back to McFarland. I don't let him work on my car for tuning either. I do it myself.

But the Mechtech turbo has no problems at low boost. It puts out just as much torque and nearly as much HP at 5 psi as a Dinan S/C does at 8 psi. And people who can't or won't deal with tuning it correctly aren't going to get out of it what it is capable of at higher boost levels.

The Aerodyne blower acts nothing at all like a normal turbo. The variable turbine area method makes the boost levels behave in a totally different way. That's why that I still have a HKS fuel controller working on top of new fuel maps. The ECU does not have enough actual fuel maps to deal with the sort-of, but not quite, logrithmic boost curve.

Does AA know how to do this with their software? I doubt it. Many of you are young guys coming into this fairly recently and don't have the memories of the first couple of years of blown engines that AA experienced learning how to do what they now do pretty well. Yes. They blew up motors. They kept cars in their shop for 6 months at a time. Does this make them bad guys? No. they were tredding new ground in a car totally unsuited for F/I. But is Mechtech an expertise that they have, either? Apparently not. Do they have any conceivable business reason to develop software to enable your car or any Mechtech car work correctly? No frickin way. What on earth would compel a company to sell software to make a $6,000 system compete effectively with their non-CARB legal $12,000 system. The whole thing is preposterous.

Truth be told, the blatant, unwashed fact is that AA cannot make their system work in native mode on an OBDII car either. SHOCKER!! No, they cannot. They convert all of the high horsepower cars to OBDI and add other bandaids to the system on top of that.

Do I blame them or hold them in contempt for this? No. The BMW is not suited for F/I. We all bought a car that we are dissatisfied with that we are now spending stupid amounts of money trying to make it into a Porsche or a Supra or an RX-7.

Can McFarland tune your car or my car? No, he can't, even if he had the knowledge because he refuses to buy the right equipment.

Can AA tune it? No. They have tried before and either given up or did a sales job on the customer to get them into an AA system. Nothing wrong with that, the customer got something that worked.

Can I tune it? I've done ok but I have run out of ability on some things and will have to get some help on the software tables for the air meter.

Will I blow it up again? Damn right I will because I will push it to the edge. Will others? Depends on what they want.

Brad, I sincerely think you should return the M3 to stock and sell it. Really. You are not happy. And you may or may not be willing to spend the money on an AA system that will probably work with your car if it is taken back to OBDI. It will be that or another blown engine. Get rid of he car now while it has a fresh motor and move on.

Originally posted by jsp98m3


The Aerodyne blower acts nothing at all like a normal turbo. The variable turbine area method makes the boost levels behave in a totally different way. That's why that I still have a HKS fuel controller working on top of new fuel maps. The ECU does not have enough actual fuel maps to deal with the sort-of, but not quite, logrithmic boost curve.

Does AA know how to do this with their software? I doubt it. Many of you are young guys coming into this fairly recently and don't have the memories of the first couple of years of blown engines that AA experienced learning how to do what they now do pretty well. Yes. They blew up motors. They kept cars in their shop for 6 months at a time. Does this make them bad guys? No. they were tredding new ground in a car totally unsuited for F/I. But is Mechtech an expertise that they have, either? Apparently not. Do they have any conceivable business reason to develop software to enable your car or any Mechtech car work correctly? No frickin way. What on earth would compel a company to sell software to make a $6,000 system compete effectively with their non-CARB legal $12,000 system. The whole thing is preposterous.

Truth be told, the blatant, unwashed fact is that AA cannot make their system work in native mode on an OBDII car either. SHOCKER!! No, they cannot. They convert all of the high horsepower cars to OBDI and add other bandaids to the system on top of that.

Do I blame them or hold them in contempt for this? No. The BMW is not suited for F/I. We all bought a car that we are dissatisfied with that we are now spending stupid amounts of money trying to make it into a Porsche or a Supra or an RX-7.

Can McFarland tune your car or my car? No, he can't, even if he had the knowledge because he refuses to buy the right equipment.

Can AA tune it? No. They have tried before and either given up or did a sales job on the customer to get them into an AA system. Nothing wrong with that, the customer got something that worked.

Can I tune it? I've done ok but I have run out of ability on some things and will have to get some help on the software tables for the air meter.

Will I blow it up again? Damn right I will because I will push it to the edge. Will others? Depends on what they want.

Brad, I sincerely think you should return the M3 to stock and sell it. Really. You are not happy. And you may or may not be willing to spend the money on an AA system that will probably work with your car if it is taken back to OBDI. It will be that or another blown engine. Get rid of he car now while it has a fresh motor and move on.


AA Software on a properly tuned M3 w/ Aerodyne Blower; they tuned it and the owner chose to go over to an AA kit after seeing the results that were attained on some of the AA cars (I was there the week they tuned the Mechtech car and met the owner as well):

http://www.activeautowerke.com/dyno/97%20M3%20Mechtech%20vs%2097%20M3%20Mechtech%20w%2 0AA%20tuning.asp

As far as AA OBD2 cars go, I think there has been a total of about 4-5 cars with this system out there. I know 4 of them and all of them run fine. Most people will opt at THEIR choice to do the conversion because they want the higher power that can be attained with the converted system.

I would have to disagree with having Brad get rid of his car. I personally love the E36 M3 and could have easily bought another car that could have doubled the horse power with half the money of my current car, but that is not what I was after. Out of all the people that I have met across these forums that have Mechtech kits, I would say 50% of them have been disatisfied with their kits, not saying that there are not some that are disatisfied with AA, but the number of complaints can't compare.

As for Brad's car pinging, I don't think you have to be a genius to say that it is not properly tuned and running lean to create that situation. His car can be properly tuned, he just needs to get Mechtech out of the picture and have someone else PROPERLY tune it without any piggyback CPU's and other widgets.

Ok

I have to agree with Cubed about OVER 50 percent of the people not being happy with their MechTech kits. Also Karl at Active swears up and down that the turbocharger is way too small for our vehicles which require a tremendous amount of air movement at higher rpms.

According to him, (which I now believe), when you crank the boost levels up with that turbo, all you are doing is raising exhaust gas temps to valve melting levels as the turbocharger can't properly move the air through.

I have to be honest with you saying that I have personally talked to over 4 people who have MAJOR problems with the cars, and know 3 people who have blown their engine from detonation.

Then why is it still on your car?

You should certainly remove it. I also think you should sell the car. I have lots of reasons for this but I am way too tired of this anymore.

Originally posted by jsp98m3

Truth be told, the blatant, unwashed fact is that AA cannot make their system work in native mode on an OBDII car either. SHOCKER!! No, they cannot. They convert all of the high horsepower cars to OBDI and add other bandaids to the system on top of that.


Brad, I sincerely think you should return the M3 to stock and sell it. Really. You are not happy. And you may or may not be willing to spend the money on an AA system that will probably work with your car if it is taken back to OBDI. It will be that or another blown engine. Get rid of he car now while it has a fresh motor and move on.


No one can tune an OBD2 car to high levels without fooling it somehow. With only a handful of OBD2 AA Turbo cars out there, they are still improving their systems. My car is currently the most powerful OBD2 car they have done and there are some further improvements for OBD2 cars that will be available in the near future. The same holds true for OBD1 as well. There is a limit to how much you can do with that as well before needing to upgrade to a standalone system. This applies to other makes as well. Such as plug in modules that fool Supra computers into allowing you to run more boost than the ecu allows. Is there anything wrong with any of this? Not at all. If it works well what does it matter? Unlike Turbos or nearly any other form of FI on our cars from other manufacturers I have heard nothing but satisfaction from the many people I interact with who have "band-aid" filled AA kits.

With regard to the second paragraph, that is a very discouraging and hypocritical thing to say to Brad, especially from someone who has spent great expense on a kit that never ran properly from the beginning and who has continually tried to mock and out do, with very limited knowledge, resources and a turbocharger that was not made for high HP applications, the only current company in this country that can produce reliable turbo systems for BMW's.
If Brad wants to go out and drop $30-40k or more on a Stage 3 and bring the rest of his car up to par with the power, than he is still better off in terms of money spent than going with a $100K+ Porsche Turbo and taking a huge compromise in power.

BTW... Your site states you as having 425+ hp but if you refere to your 11 PSI dyno graph http://www.apexcone.com/11psi_042800.jpg which clearly states its as being a Dynojet. If you use the typical 1.21 Dynoject conversion factor that puts you at 392 HP. But, if you use the typical Mustang dyno conversion factor, which this clearly is not from a Mustang, you get 425 HP. :dunno

BTW, boost pressure cannot exist above a level that the turbo can pack air into. If it cannot fill the cylinders, it cannot make or maintain that pressure. If your car will maintain whatever level of boost you are looking for at redline, it isn't undersized. A turbo sized to blow 20 psi into 5 liters is supposed to do what?

Think for yourselves once in a while instead of listening to rhetoric. This 'religion' is taking on the same dimensions of blind faith as brake threads. I'm unsubscribing from this thread. Good luck Brad.

The never ending saga. I wish Karl at AA and Jim at Mechtech would post comments on these discussions about there systems. Noone knows the true facts and myths but them themselves. Actually more so Karl since he has tuned both.

Originally posted by jsp98m3
Then why is it still on your car?

You should certainly remove it. I also think you should sell the car. I have lots of reasons for this but I am way too tired of this anymore.

Jim-

I don't understand why you think I should sell the car? I love my car. It's my $8000.00 down the drain that I don't love. I could have spent $3k more (well worth it at this point) and gotten somthing way better.

I don't understand where the whole sell the car thing came into play...sorry I am confused.

Originally posted by Josh



No one can tune an OBD2 car to high levels without fooling it somehow. With only a handful of OBD2 AA Turbo cars out there, they are still improving their systems. My car is currently the most powerful OBD2 car they have done and there are some further improvements for OBD2 cars that will be available in the near future. The same holds true for OBD1 as well. There is a limit to how much you can do with that as well before needing to upgrade to a standalone system. This applies to other makes as well. Such as plug in modules that fool Supra computers into allowing you to run more boost than the ecu allows. Is there anything wrong with any of this? Not at all. If it works well what does it matter? Unlike Turbos or nearly any other form of FI on our cars from other manufacturers I have heard nothing but satisfaction from the many people I interact with who have "band-aid" filled AA kits.

With regard to the second paragraph, that is a very discouraging and hypocritical thing to say to Brad, especially from someone who has spent great expense on a kit that never ran properly from the beginning and who has continually tried to mock and out do, with very limited knowledge, resources and a turbocharger that was not made for high HP applications, the only current company in this country that can produce reliable turbo systems for BMW's.
If Brad wants to go out and drop $30-40k or more on a Stage 3 and bring the rest of his car up to par with the power, than he is still better off in terms of money spent than going with a $100K+ Porsche Turbo and taking a huge compromise in power.

BTW... Your site states you as having 425+ hp but if you refere to your 11 PSI dyno graph http://www.apexcone.com/11psi_042800.jpg which clearly states its as being a Dynojet. If you use the typical 1.21 Dynoject conversion factor that puts you at 392 HP. But, if you use the typical Mustang dyno conversion factor, which this clearly is not from a Mustang, you get 425 HP. :dunno

Josh-

Thanks for the backup. I am not sure what I did wrong in this case...all I want is for my car to be run properly and I don't want to be given the runaround from Jim MechFarland anymore. I have been to his shop over 30 times, had over 10 chips in my car, had a SuperAFR in my car twice, put water injection in, burnt out my clutch on his dyno, and the list goes on and on.

Everytime I would go there he would say a that the kit needed different things. I asked several times why we can't ship the car to Florida and get it tuned properly on AA's dyno where they can burn the software on the spot. He doesn't want to incur that expense.

He also doesn't want to buy a chip burner so that Karl can mail him the software.

I even was told I had things on my car that I don't. Specifically I was told that my Level 2 kit comes with a high volume fuel pump (which I paid for) and never got. Last time I went to BMW I asked them to check which pump I have and it is the stock part number.

Oh well...All I can do now is wait and see what happens.

Originally posted by jsp98m3
BTW, boost pressure cannot exist above a level that the turbo can pack air into. If it cannot fill the cylinders, it cannot make or maintain that pressure. If your car will maintain whatever level of boost you are looking for at redline, it isn't undersized. A turbo sized to blow 20 psi into 5 liters is supposed to do what?

Think for yourselves once in a while instead of listening to rhetoric. This 'religion' is taking on the same dimensions of blind faith as brake threads. I'm unsubscribing from this thread. Good luck Brad.

Jim-

If you look at the dynosheets, the car doesn't maintain boost pressure.

Boost falls off dramatically above 4500rpms because (according to AA) the turbo can't move that amount of air at that high volume.

I don't understand why you think I should sell the car

Brad, since I believe Jim has unsubscribed from this thread, let me take a wild guess, that his suggestion was out of a feeling that by this point, he figures youre probably so disgusted with the turn of events that youd want to just disassociate yourself from anything that has to do with Mechtech..And at this point, that includes your car....Im also guessing that his suggestion came out of the feeling that now that your 8+ grand in the hole, with no assurances at all that youll be able to recover a portion of this without a fight, you probably wouldnt want to go ahead, and plunk another 10 grand or so down on an AA kit to get you the power that you want, on top of what youve already spent. I just think Jim was putting himself in your shoes, and this is how he would react to it had he been in your exact shoes..

Thats not to say you SHOULD sell it...Im only guessing thats what he would have done had he been in your shoes.

Originally posted by slvr98 M
The never ending saga. I wish Karl at AA and Jim at Mechtech would post comments on these discussions about there systems. Noone knows the true facts and myths but them themselves. Actually more so Karl since he has tuned both.

They won't do that because they are in business together (Karl writes the code and gets paid for it..)

I have the whole conversation on video and the whole dyno run..I will post it later for you guys...

This has my dyno tuner (Bart at Godspeed Dynoworks) talking to AA (Karl specifically) on the phone while Karl tells Bart outright that the turbo cannot move enough air to make boost at high RPM's.

Originally posted by paul e


Brad, since I believe Jim has unsubscribed from this thread, let me take a wild guess, that his suggestion was out of a feeling that by this point, he figures youre probably so disgusted with the turn of events that youd want to just disassociate yourself from anything that has to do with Mechtech..And at this point, that includes your car....Im also guessing that his suggestion came out of the feeling that now that your 8+ grand in the hole, with no assurances at all that youll be able to recover a portion of this without a fight, you probably wouldnt want to go ahead, and plunk another 10 grand or so down on an AA kit to get you the power that you want, on top of what youve already spent. I just think Jim was putting himself in your shoes, and this is how he would react to it had he been in your exact shoes..

Thats not to say you SHOULD sell it...Im only guessing thats what he would have done had he been in your shoes.

This is not possible...the car has $5000.00 worth of other mods and is sponsored...it's not an option at this point to sell it.

Hmm.....Do I smell class action........

Originally posted by slvr98 M
Hmm.....Do I smell class action........

I have 3 other people at this point interested in suing MechTech so I am going to call a lawyer later today and see if anyone would be interested in taking this case.

Originally posted by Brad D.


I have 3 other people at this point interested in suing MechTech so I am going to call a lawyer later today and see if anyone would be interested in taking this case.


What exactly is your goal here? Is it just to get your money back, or is it more than that?

I would think Mechtech should at a BARE minimum offer your money back (in full). I know that I will do so for an unsatisfied customer when I get my setup working.

It is hard to believe that they can think they have "tuned" a system without even knowing what the AFR is...

Steve

Originally posted by stimpee



What exactly is your goal here? Is it just to get your money back, or is it more than that?

I would think Mechtech should at a BARE minimum offer your money back (in full). I know that I will do so for an unsatisfied customer when I get my setup working.

It is hard to believe that they can think they have "tuned" a system without even knowing what the AFR is... The f'ed up part is that they have to return my car to stock trim...and god knows what they'll do to it while they have it (joy rides etc..)

Steve

At the least my money back. I also spent almost a year fighting with this car. I agree, how the hell can they tune a car without knowing the AFR. They let my car go with a 14:1 AFR which is unbelievable.

Originally posted by Brad D.


At the least my money back. I also spent almost a year fighting with this car. I agree, how the hell can they tune a car without knowing the AFR. They let my car go with a 14:1 AFR which is unbelievable.

No argument there. 14:1 is ridiculously low even for a NA car with active knock control. VERY unsafe.

We can argue all day about what the RIGHT AFR is (I will say it is the one that makes the most power, while still providing enough cooling to suppress detonation and run reasonable timing advance), but that is a moving target, even in the same car!!!

Good luck with MechTech. If you decide you want to get SCREWED again (with a twin-screw supercharger though, not with a bad system) I will hopefully have something to offer in 6 months or so!!! (Shameless plug...)

Steve

What about backpressure, leading to greater exhaust residuals?

Turbo sizing should be based on airflow, not the degree at which it can plug an engine.

- Beau

Originally posted by jsp98m3
If your car will maintain whatever level of boost you are looking for at redline, it isn't undersized.

FYI, MechTech called me yesterday, and Jim MechFarland said that the Turbocharger is good for 10-11psi max.

See what I mean about double talk from them.

FYI, MechTech called me yesterday, and Jim MechFarland said that the Turbocharger is good for 10-11psi max.

Yea, but did he say youre getting your money back? And how does he respond to your finding with regard to the a/f mix? Does he claim that 14:1 is ok for a hi boost system? Or does he just not acknowledge it?

He and AA want to work with me to get it resolved...no he says that the A/F ratio is very bad...I'll post more as I find out...I just wanted to settle that turbo debate once and for all..so straight from the horses mouth..11psi MAX on that turbocharger is what he told me.

He said also that it is true about the turbocharger not holding boost up until redline. He says that's the nature of the actuator on the wastegate.

Brad,

Glad that Jim is willing to work with you. Exactly what setup are you running for your fuel? Larger injectors and ECU changes only? I hope that everything works out OK. If the reprogramming goes well, I may consider that instead of going to a stand alone.