OK....
I have been thinking about the results of some of my street races lately.

As a background, my Dinan SC has been Dynoed at 307 RWHP.
I have not taken it to a drag strip, but for arguments sake, lets say that Dinans claim is true of 13.3 secs at 107 mph. (I dont see why not)

So, I figure I can easily blow away cars in the highway that has a quarter mile times of low 14s. Cars like NA E36 M3, C43 AMG and S2000.

But here is what I seem to observe. If Im relaxed and just decided to nail it AFTER I have seen their car take off...at say 80 mph..., it will take my car to at least 130 mph before I can pass them...a doubtful win...
But if I go at it with them and we hit it at the same time...I can gain about 7-8 car lengths by 130 mph....an easy and decided win... but hmmm did they let up on the throttle...



So, this confused me....why does it take my car, with 100 rwhp more, so long to catch up with them?

So...I try to validate the results with CARTEST software....They have a Dinan 3.2 L SC M3 model that runs the perfect time and a C43 AMG model that also seems to run the proper 1/4 mile when compared to your standard car mags.....

Here is what I found....If my reaction time to one of these hiway races is even 1.5 secs slower than the other car when he decides to run at 80, I will have to go to at least 128 MPH before I catch them, which will take about 10.x secs. The slowest 10.x secs of my life, all the time wondering...did the extra 100 horses fell off my trunk?

The same software verified that an even run will net me 8 car lengths to 130 and if I catch them sleeping, I can gain about 14 car length by 130. I dont think I can see them in the mirrors by then.


So heres the moral.....those 100 extra horses aint gonna save you if you react casually (damn, just 1.5 secs behind and you are toast...) on hiway races with cars running in the low 14s..........

I guess it makes sense... If I raced an S2000 on a qurter mile and I let him get a ONE second head start, it will take me another 13.3 secs to catch him and I will have to go from 0 to 16 mph....

Kind of make me doubt my investment.....

You're dead on. Not really that much difference between a 15 sec car and a 13 sec car.

We are sick sick people for spending this kind of money. :)

Yes, that's all very true, but in racing, 1.5 seconds is a lifetime. Take a car that runs a 12.5, say you're average Z06, and take a car that runs an even 14 seconds, say a Mustang GT.

You're standing at the finish line, looking sideways across the track.

The Z06 flies by... ZOOM!

One thousand one
One thous....

ZOOM... the Mustang passes.

That's forever in drag racing!

How many car lengths = 1.5 seconds at the strip???

My point, the value/worth of the mods will always depend on the driver. If you're caught napping, shame on you, get 'em next time. 1.5 seconds will cost you most any race unless you're dealing in extremes (911 Turbo vs Buick LeSabre).

I'm one who practices drag racing like a moron, been at it for a decade and a half now. I like to think I make the most of what I have in my car. My ability to launch has me besting cars, I probably should not.

Does that make me invincible? Hardly. But I do perform the majority of my racing at the track, where I'm sure to be ready... :D

Originally posted by SilverStreak
My point, the value/worth of the mods will always depend on the driver. If you're caught napping, shame on you, get 'em next time. 1.5 seconds will cost you most any race unless you're dealing in extremes (911 Turbo vs Buick LeSabre).



I guess I just got used to being able to this in the past...
In 93, I had a TT RX-7 and I can pretty much relax. Back then my RX7 ran low 13s and can handle most anything on the road.

There are more competiton now..an NA E36 M3 power seems to be middle of the road...
From lower end Altimas running 14s all the way to barges like the 745i....

Now there is the new Mustang COBRA....running mid 12s for 35 K.
Wait till GM counters...we will have a bunch of pony cars that can waste any M3....running low 12s

Yeah. :(

Unfortunately, we need forced induction just to be able to compete these days. Cars are faster than ever in history right now. A 300 HP car in the early 90's was considered a supercar! Now ya' got stock pickup trucks running 13's. :rolleyes:

Not fair! :confused:

Yeah, new cars have come a long ways, and stuff off the showroom floor is amazing now.

Not to worry, though, there will only be 8000 03 Cobras out there, and they are rather expensive for a Mustang, and let's face it, there are tons of modified/supercharged Mustangs out there, you never know what you're facing until you run it.

And we didn't buy our BMWs strictly for their straight line/acceleration abilities, we got them for the style, grace, quality, handling, braking, aplomb, etc. We can always make them go faster with mods.

Back in 1989 I have an 88 Mustang GT modified, and it was faster than the Corvettes of the day and could handle most of what was out there. Today that same car would still be fast, but a stock LS1 f-body would beat it. It's just the times.

And mfgrs keep upping the ante every year. I was reading about the new Vette, the C6, the blah model is gonna have over 400 hp and the Z06 over 450 hp and 450 tq. The new Viper has 500 hp and 500 tq. The bar keeps getting raised.

I read where the new 5 series will have an optional 380 hp motor, and the M5 will be some insane # like 500 hp...

To put it all in perspective, a stock 2002 Miata could outrun a stock 289 Mustang from the 60's to the 1/4 mile, and have ABS, airbags, CD players, AC, power locks and windows...

Progress is a good thing. :)

This HP wars radically cuts down on my projected ownership time. How long before you run out of upgrades and trully start falling behind. Right now the M3 SC can just keep up with the stock offerings....even from the new M and AMG models....

I'm betting that's partially the point, the mfgrs want you and me to shell out money for a new car more often, nets them more profit that way...

Hey Gerry buddy,

You need some more mods for the quickness on the short distance sprint:

Higher gearing for your diff

Increased lsd lockup to lay the power down quickly

Light weight fly wheel

Forged 17 inch wheels for light weight quickness

Co-pilot to scan for beat the shit out of them opportunities, while you "relaaaaaax" and drink your coke and eat your fries or yadda, yadda on the cell phone.

Did I miss anything? :buttrock

if you go too nuts with the gearing you'll top out at 130 or so and then all they have to do is stay on it to get ya... ;)

Originally posted by BAADDOG
Hey Gerry buddy,

You need some more mods for the quickness on the short distance sprint:

Higher gearing for your diff

Increased lsd lockup to lay the power down quickly

Light weight fly wheel

Forged 17 inch wheels for light weight quickness

Co-pilot to scan for beat the shit out of them opportunities, while you "relaaaaaax" and drink your coke and eat your fries or yadda, yadda on the cell phone.

Did I miss anything? :buttrock

I'm not usually asleep on the lights. I just get caught off guard on I 294. So I dont have any issues with gearing or putting down power. I already have a LTW fly and 18 lbs forged wheels....

My problem is that I dont usually instigate a race. I just hang on the rear of a car, like the C43 AMG, last weekend, and follow them. I was cruising behind him for a mile when he nailed it, I was not ready....I had to first realize that his car just jumped forward, then I had to downshift...after all is said and done, I was about 1.5 secs late and I had to get it to 130 to even up.....

So I will need an alert co-pilot, preferably young and feamale...oops on the other hand that might distract me more...

Another thing Gerry, is that although you have a big hp advantage, your tq advantage is much smaller. If you had a turbo, where you build max boost well before redline, you are pulling much harder in the middle of the rev range and you can catch that car quicker. It's just a different delivery of power.

Right now the M3 SC can just keep up with the stock offerings....even from the new M and AMG models

Yea...I wonder how many of us would have spent the mega thousands we did to SC ourselves, if we knew that the next M3 model released would be just as fast, not to mention the offerings from stang and vette. IM not complaining....But lets face it, even with 420 hp, realize that its only 420 hp at 6700 rpms, and it falls of damn faster than it would on an NA car beneath it...So it looks great in the numbers, but how streetable is it....Im glad to have done it, but theres not much doubt now that had I kept the upgrades to a dull roar, Id be using that saved 20 grand, plus the value of my trade, and jumping right on either a new M3 or a Z06. As it is, I'll probably wind up waiting a couple years to see what the new C6 is all about and then make a decision...Basically, though, I think the 20 gs in upgrades is lost...Maybe if Im lucky, I'll get 3 grand back on the 20 spent, maybe for the wheels and such. I probably will not take the time to part out the upgrades and put it back to stock...first, labor on dismantling the blower is bound to be as high as installation was. Then, selling it would probably not bring more than 2500 or 3 gs top...I think that a car with as much stuff on it as mine, in excellent condition, while scaring off some, might just be lucky enough to find a buyer who happened to be thinking hed have to spend retail just to get a used M3 to where he could be at if he were to buy mine...He could spend say 5K over used book value for the stock car, and realize about a $15K savings over what it would cost him to have the same thing. Plus there's the convenience of it already being done!

Then there's this to think about...Throughout history, each time the HP wars would build, what happened afterward? For one reason or another, the wars came to a crashing hault. Either we'll run out of gas, some crazy legislation will 'green' us out of existance, or we'll face a worldwide shortage of steel...Who knows...But something always kills it...Were having an HP renaissance such as we've never seen before. I suggest we continue to take advantage of it as best we can...Nobody wants to be an the situation where it passes us buy, and the only thing available to buy when were finally ready is a Datsun B210...Oh...ya mean that already happened? So Sorry.... :--)

The search for the newer, better and more of "anything" will always continue.

I found out long time ago that given the time I got used to every upgrade I did on my car.

There will always be something better or faster out there, I tried to do the best I could with the money I spent, but I still know there are cars out there that are faster.

But I have to tell you, yesterday I was returning home from shopping with my wife and I had the chance to dust a CBR 600 F3 20mph to 110mph and wait for the guy to catch up and see his surprise...

For the next several minutes I thought the money was very well spent.
:biglaughb

And yes, you need to have a ton of torque difference to catch up and pass within 3-5 seconds at high speeds.

Again, there is a limit to each individual owner, a point where you love your car as it is, and point when it's time to get a new car. Each to be determined in it's time and worth by each individual.

Originally posted by OZ3M


But I have to tell you, yesterday I was returning home from shopping with my wife and I had the chance to dust a CBR 600 F3 20mph to 110mph and wait for the guy to catch up and see his surprise...

:bs:

Either that or that rider was sleeping. I have a 2002 Yamaha R6 and there isn't a street car out there that could beat me from 20mph on up...I would venture to say that the same goes for any sub average rider on a CBR F3.

Not flamin...just saying that i doubt the guy was seriously racing.

ooo this could get interesting. BJ, just FYI, OZ3M's car is http://www.activeautowerke.com/cars/TurboMZ3/index.asp

Originally posted by V Shah
ooo this could get interesting. BJ, just FYI, OZ3M's car is http://www.activeautowerke.com/cars/TurboMZ3/index.asp

LOL! :D Holy Jack!

I retract my previous statement...much apologies to the owner.

Thanks V Shah!

To my credit, my stock R6 does the 1/4 mile in 10.86 seconds according to Cycle World and Motor Cycle Magazine.

So considering that, I still don't think there is a street M3 that currently exists that can beat that time. Is there?

But let's not forget that's with a Pro rider. It's much harder to launch a bike perfectly to get that kind of time.

And off the roll, after 100mph+ a high hp car with better aerodynamics will walk even the most potent of streetbikes. There are videos floating around of 800+rwhp supras walking hayabusas!

True. I feel my launching abilities are fairly strong and that I could have the bike in the very low 11's.

There is a supercharged Z06 that lives close to me. We have raced on many occasions from a stop and rolling start and he never beats me. Of course with a turbo car, it may be a different story.

Does the owner of that car have time slips? It says he does an 11.5. That awesome! And on stock internals? Wow.

Witness the power of 850rwhp and 680rwtq: http://www.walserrz.com/movies/Walser-vs-busa.mpg

V Shah, there will always be exceptions to the rules...especially when it comes down to supercars like Supra's where you can juice 800 rwhp on stock internals.

My argument was with a street M3...not Supras.

Just doing some basic calculations with power/weight ratios:

My R6 has:
whp: 101
Weight: 400lbs wet

So I would expect your average car weighing approximately 3000lbs would have to have a fair amount of horsepower to remain competitive.

Granted that power curves are not identical and my redline is at 14,000rpms.

Tell you the truth, this is not the first time I beat a bike.

In this case he was following me, he gunned it before, I pushed it maybe half a second later when he was next to me, 2nd gear near my torque peak. After I slowed down he kept looking at the car for about a mile before he took the exit.

Usually when I step on it first the result is more drastic.

Most of the time bikes are faster than cars but not always, walser supra is a good example, supraforums should have more stories about bikes.:)

Throughout history, each time the HP wars would build, what happened afterward? For one reason or another, the wars came to a crashing hault.

True, true. When I was shopping for a car, I almost decided to hold off and wait for a newer, higher hp car that is always right around the corner. I've actually kept motor mods to a minimum unlike you fast guys in this forum, and decided to spend the money at the track, and on compartively inexpensive track-type mods (c/o's, bushings, etc.).

To any of y'all left with the bittersweet feeling that you have a fast, nice car, but faster nicer cars (on paper) continue to be churned out from factories here and abroad, go hit a road course. That's where bimmers come alive. Forced induction or not.

Just my 2 cents worth of naturally aspirated thoughts.

Bah-humbug!! ;)