I have been to two 2-day driving schools (4 track days) this spring and was signed off to intermediate for my next school in May. I have been driving on Yokohoma ES100's which are my cars weakest link at this point. I picked up a set of Yokohoma A032R tires cheap from another BF member and was wondering is it a bad idea to switch to them for my next DE? You can see my sig for the other mods.

I think you'll learn more at this stage on street tires but what do I know.

Ask your instructors. I'm at about the same point as you, and was told that going to r compound too soon is a common mistake, and that it will foster bad habits and cover up mistakes. One instructor told me that you should be able to rotate the car comfortably by trail braking and with the throttle before going up to track tires. I'm booking more seat time before I go up to r comps. I'm more interested in driving on the limit, wherever it may be, than I am in moving the limit itself up.

On one side, unless you're the second coming of Ayrton Senna, stay on street tires for at least a couple more schools.

On the other side, that Yoko tire you're talking about is barely a DOT-R tire, and is a lot closer to a street tire than most.

i did 8-9 events on crappy street tires even though i had r comps for auto crossing at home. i gained alot from driving on the street tires, i couldent be happier now

What exactly do you mean by weakest link? Are you sliding the car in almost every corner? If the answer is yes, are you then comfortable controlling that slide using both steering and throttle input? If you have answered yes to all these questions, jump to R's, if not stay on the streets until you can answer yes to the above.

I have been to two 2-day driving schools (4 track days) this spring and was signed off to intermediate for my next school in May. I have been driving on Yokohoma ES100's which are my cars weakest link at this point. I picked up a set of Yokohoma A032R tires cheap from another BF member and was wondering is it a bad idea to switch to them for my next DE? You can see my sig for the other mods.

This may cause some debate... when you learn how to drive in the snow, do you use summer tires - no, you use snow or an all-season tire designed for that purpose. The same principle really applies to the track with someone with a bit of experience under them (i.e. someone who's getting smooth, knows the line, looks forward, etc.). Track tires are designed for the abuse of the track and if you have the luxury of using a dedicated set, I'd say go for it.

p.s. I'm also in Raleigh and looking forward to the VIR North course school in July.

I have been to two 2-day driving schools (4 track days) this spring and was signed off to intermediate for my next school in May. I have been driving on Yokohoma ES100's which are my cars weakest link at this point. I picked up a set of Yokohoma A032R tires cheap from another BF member and was wondering is it a bad idea to switch to them for my next DE? You can see my sig for the other mods.

Ken,

what DE are you doing in may?

i'd recommend staying on street tires for a while....

What exactly do you mean by weakest link? Are you sliding the car in almost every corner? If the answer is yes, are you then comfortable controlling that slide using both steering and throttle input? If you have answered yes to all these questions, jump to R's, if not stay on the streets until you can answer yes to the above.
I should correct that statement. I am the weakest link at this point. My car is certainly capable of more performance than I can currently get out of it. To answer your question, no I do not slide every corner. I do a lot of them and my instructor has said that I am close to the limits of my current street tires.

It may be a better idea at this point to get a better street tire like S-03 or Michelin PS. My ES100's are not a max performance street tire.

I have been to two 2-day driving schools (4 track days) this spring and was signed off to intermediate for my next school in May.I don't know. 4 track days and no one has anything else to teach you? I'd grab people for the right seat. Anytime an instructor tells me there is nothing else to teach me and signs me off I am a bit concerned.

Ken,

what DE are you doing in may?

i'd recommend staying on street tires for a while....
What's up David. I meant to say in June instead of May. I am planning on doing the THSCC DE at Rockingham June 4-5 and then the Tarheel BMW CCA event in July at VIR. If you know of any others that you would recommend let me know.

todays good street tires are as sticky as many race tires of not so long ago.

are we all doomed to not ever learn to drive now that good street tires pull over 1g on stock cars?


my opinion - it doesn't matter what kind of tire you are on as far as learning to drive. However, if you are not involved in actual competitive racing, what is the point in going for super sticky tires? You normally accomplish the following things as you get stickier tires:

1. you spend more money
2. you have to change tires more often
3. you are now going faster if you wreck
4. you now have to change wheels/tires at the track
5. you wear our your brakes, suspension parts and bushings faster

and if you are racing competitively:

6. you win more



So, without number 6, why bother with 1 through 5?

only makes sense if the extra grip is really that thrilling to you or if you just want to show off and see how fast you can go.

What exactly do you mean by weakest link? Are you sliding the car in almost every corner? If the answer is yes, are you then comfortable controlling that slide using both steering and throttle input? If you have answered yes to all these questions, jump to R's, if not stay on the streets until you can answer yes to the above.

I would think if you're sliding the car in almost every corner you would need some serious instructions before moving on to R-comps, because if you're sliding you are not going fast. Moving on to R-comps will only mitigate a disaster at this point.

I would actually suggest that you NOT move onto R-comps until you can go through all corners without losing grip and sliding, then move onto R-comps. Then again, I've only done a few schools and I've never driven on R-comps so what do I know.

What's up David. I meant to say in June instead of May. I am planning on doing the THSCC DE at Rockingham June 4-5 and then the Tarheel BMW CCA event in July at VIR. If you know of any others that you would recommend let me know.

gotcha...i'll see you at the rock in june then ;)

i havent really looked at the DE schedule too much after that...i'll probably be racing at a lot of nasa events starting in july...

thscc always put on great DE's and i'll try to make it to most of those (can't make it to their roebling event though)...

maximum lateral grip is achieved when most of the tread is sliding actually.

this doesn't mean crazy drifting, but it does mean visible slip angles and slight sliding.



I would think if you're sliding the car in almost every corner you would need some serious instructions before moving on to R-comps, because if you're sliding you are not going fast. Moving on to R-comps will only mitigate a disaster at this point.

I would actually suggest that you NOT move onto R-comps until you can go through all corners without losing grip and sliding, then move onto R-comps. Then again, I've only done a few schools and I've never driven on R-comps so what do I know.

How good are your car control skills? Have you induced some pucker-moment oversteer and saved it? Have you gone off the track? I would say that car control skills would dictate when you are ready for R's since those pucker moments will only happen faster. Given that you've been to 4 track days and been consistenly signed off, I would have to say get more seat time before going to R's. You can go pretty damn fast in an E36 M3 with street tires.

I did one full year and about 7-8 events before I went to an R compound, maybe even more. Basically, I wore out my RE71's on my track wheels and then got RA1's. Don't even try a set of RA1's because you won't want to go back.

my opinion - it doesn't matter what kind of tire you are on as far as learning to drive. However, if you are not involved in actual competitive racing, what is the point in going for super sticky tires? You normally accomplish the following things as you get stickier tires:

1. you spend more money
2. you have to change tires more often
3. you are now going faster if you wreck
4. you now have to change wheels/tires at the track
5. you wear our your brakes, suspension parts and bushings faster

and if you are racing competitively:

6. you win more



So, without number 6, why bother with 1 through 5?

only makes sense if the extra grip is really that thrilling to you or if you just want to show off and see how fast you can go.

I TOTALLY agree with jmott on this one. Quite simply, there's no point unless you're racing.

For DEs? Unless you're at the point where you're trying to chase an ego-boosting personal-best lap time, why bother? Even then, is it worth spending $700-$800* for a set of Rs?

* You may have spent less on the set you picked up, but if you're chasing top times, the best Rs are around this price range.

todays good street tires are as sticky as many race tires of not so long ago.

are we all doomed to not ever learn to drive now that good street tires pull over 1g on stock cars?

That's a solid point...but combine the grip of good modern tires with the speed that most "street" cars are capable of, and the danger level for an inexperienced (or even a very experienced) driver goes up. There's no need to raise the limits of the car even more for a newbie, increasing not only the speed he/she must go in order to experience driving near the limit, but also the speed he/she may crash at when exceeding that limit.

4. you now have to change wheels/tires at the track


Whether or not you run R's or streets, there are advantages to a 2nd set of wheels. Mainly in having fresh tires to drive to/from the track (closest track for me is 450 miles). I'll never forget getting caught in St. George in a hell of a snow storm on bald tires after running at Vegas. That was the last event I went to with a single set of wheels.

As soon as you go to 2 sets, might as well start running R's (even if they are take-offs, IMO.)

Whether or not you run R's or streets, there are advantages to a 2nd set of wheels. Mainly in having fresh tires to drive to/from the track (closest track for me is 450 miles). I'll never forget getting caught in St. George in a hell of a snow storm on bald tires after running at Vegas. That was the last event I went to with a single set of wheels.

As soon as you go to 2 sets, might as well start running R's (even if they are take-offs, IMO.)


snow?
whats that?
=)

I just wanted to throw in something. At VIR in Feb., I was using Pirelli P-Zero Nero M+S tires and I was faster and experienced less wear than comparable cars with "Max" performance tires and I was faster than some lighter cars with Rs. The tires surprised me, gave enough that you could experiment and find the limits and still be fast, and held enough at the important parts of the track, Oak Tree and Roller Coast.

I too was considering mounting my RA1s but decided against it after discussing it further with some others. Since it's a DE, you can more safely play with the car and the "line". But if you are going to run streets, I would highly recommend the P-Zero M+S. I don't know why they work as well as they do but I liked them better than my my old S-03s.

Tom

I went to rcomps for my 2nd 2 day school. Maybe that's why I suck so bad.

I say wait. You might think you're close to the limit, but I'd be willing to bet there's still quite a bit left in most corners that you think you're "max'ing" the car out on.

I thought I was pretty close to what my car could do after 3-4 schools, but here I am after 9 schools and I'm still getting quicker and quicker, and learning more and more on street tires.

If you're not passing at least a few people on R-comps in comparable cars(can't pass 'em all) in the intermediate group, then there's probably quite a bit left on the table.



Just be patient, and get as much seat time as possible.


If you really want to get a tire that will hold up to the abuse a bit better than the ES100's(I personally think they suck from a wear perspective given their grip level on the track) - step up to something cheap like Kumho MX's that'll give you a hair more grip, handle the heat(which is the biggest thing that gets to people with medicore street tires and trying to go fast), and wear pretty well.

What are some thoughts on RA-1s? The consensus seems to be that they have the grip of R-comps (which they are) but the forgiveness and slip angles of a sticky street tire. Seems highly recommended for DEs and track days.

What are some thoughts on RA-1s? The consensus seems to be that they have the grip of R-comps (which they are) but the forgiveness and slip angles of a sticky street tire. Seems highly recommended for DEs and track days.They make a decent amount of noise when they are about to let go. I really liked mine for autocross, but there are faster tires out there. Pricey too... They also can be driven all the way down and last a long time compared to others.

I have one set that I used for one season of autocross. Then the next year as a summer tire... they got hard and began to let go suddenly and without warning on the street, but I hit them with some rubber softener and they're still usable. What's not to like?

Whether or not you run R's or streets, there are advantages to a 2nd set of wheels. Mainly in having fresh tires to drive to/from the track (closest track for me is 450 miles). I'll never forget getting caught in St. George in a hell of a snow storm on bald tires after running at Vegas. That was the last event I went to with a single set of wheels.

As soon as you go to 2 sets, might as well start running R's (even if they are take-offs, IMO.)

Agreed, I'm about to purchase a 2nd set of wheels for the track, but I'm going to stick with street tires for the time being, maybe nexzt year I'll go with R's. I've been really happy with the Khumo MX's (for both street and track) but am tempted to try a different set of street tires for the track.

i have done one DE in spokane, on toyo t1-s's. i can honestly say that a good street tire is fine for DE's. the point has already been said, why spend a shit load of money for personal satisfaction. i am going back in june but this time w/ es100's. i leave my hoosier's for autox when i can actually get something out of them. at spokane i was able to move up a class and still tail instructors on ra1's but i am still going to stay on street tires. for learning purposes and finacial ones as well!

Hey nuk,
I have a set of aging RA-1s also. What did you use for a rubber softener?



They make a decent amount of noise when they are about to let go. I really liked mine for autocross, but there are faster tires out there. Pricey too... They also can be driven all the way down and last a long time compared to others.

I have one set that I used for one season of autocross. Then the next year as a summer tire... they got hard and began to let go suddenly and without warning on the street, but I hit them with some rubber softener and they're still usable. What's not to like?

If you really want to get a tire that will hold up to the abuse a bit better than the ES100's(I personally think they suck from a wear perspective given their grip level on the track) - step up to something cheap like Kumho MX's that'll give you a hair more grip, handle the heat(which is the biggest thing that gets to people with medicore street tires and trying to go fast), and wear pretty well.

Or the Toyo Proxes T1-S or the new T1-R. I had T1-Ses on my 323Ci and they held up exceptionally well grip wise on track, and they held up as the best street tire I've ever had in terms of wear. 2 schools later and still over 70% of tread, and the grip level is on par with Michelin Pilot Sports and Bridgestone S-03s for about 75% the cost.

Hey nuk,
I have a set of aging RA-1s also. What did you use for a rubber softener?Hi, sorry for the length of time to respond. I hadn't seen the post until today. I used Formula V Traction Treatment to extend the life of my RA-1s. Disclaimer; I do not know if using this product is legal in any Club or Class of competitive racing. I used this to enable the use of my old RA-1s for summer tires and DE events.

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/ProductSelection.asp?Product=3340

It did just what I wanted it to do.


Tom

I'd say go with your RA-1's, doesn't sound like anyone posting in this thread has spent
much time on ES100's...

..

I'd say go with your RA-1's, doesn't sound like anyone posting in this thread has spent
much time on ES100's...

..

I burned through a whole set on my former M3. They burn up quickly when subjected to track use and generally don't provide much grip for the wear.

I've had much better luck with more performance oriented street tires at the track that can take the heat like Kumho MX, and people have been happy with Toyo T1S's from what I've seen as well.

Kumho 712's give 95% of the grip of ES100's but seem like they last twice as long on the track, plus they're a bit cheaper per set.

I should correct that statement. I am the weakest link at this point. My car is certainly capable of more performance than I can currently get out of it. To answer your question, no I do not slide every corner. I do a lot of them and my instructor has said that I am close to the limits of my current street tires.

It may be a better idea at this point to get a better street tire like S-03 or Michelin PS. My ES100's are not a max performance street tire.

Try some Kumho Mx's.

A032R's are great, hopefully you didn't get the autocross soft compound. I heard they heat up too fast and aren't necessarily great for track days.

The main reason I wasn't signed off from beginner’s class was because I told my instructor that I did not plan to move to r-comps for a while. In the next class up, most people have r-comps and more track experience than me, so I would most likely be getting passed often which would distract me from driving my line. If I stay in beginners session, all I have to do it stage up first and not have to pass as many people.

I am very curious to try r-comps, but I’m young and I have much more to learn or at least more experience to learn from. I might try them out for autox's only.

The main reason I wasn't signed off from beginner’s class was because I told my instructor that I did not plan to move to r-comps for a while. In the next class up, most people have r-comps and more track experience than me, so I would most likely be getting passed often which would distract me from driving my line. If I stay in beginners session, all I have to do it stage up first and not have to pass as many people.

I am very curious to try r-comps, but I’m young and I have much more to learn or at least more experience to learn from. I might try them out for autox's only.

The same stuff happens, just faster on R-comps. I wouldnt worry about it too much, in my experience the only people who are capable of going much faster on R-comps are the more advanced students. You have the right idea, stick to the run group that gives you the most open track time so you can learn at your own pace.

The main reason I wasn't signed off from beginner’s class was because I told my instructor that I did not plan to move to r-comps for a while. In the next class up, most people have r-comps and more track experience than me, so I would most likely be getting passed often which would distract me from driving my line. If I stay in beginners session, all I have to do it stage up first and not have to pass as many people.

I am very curious to try r-comps, but I’m young and I have much more to learn or at least more experience to learn from. I might try them out for autox's only.

That's very curious. I never ran r-comps my first two years on the track. In fact, I have not driven on an rcomp on the "track" yet at this point. I've always been on street tires, ES100's, MX's, and even *gasp* snow tires :eek:

I am curious why so many people in the next group up are running rcomps ... and how would you getting passed distract you from driving the line. I mean, no offense, it sounds like you are SO focused on what is in front of you, you are not paying any attention to what is going on around you ...

So what if people pass you, as long as you are safe and predictable and give them the point-by, I don't see the problem. No offense, it sounds like rcomps is not the solution ... if you cannot handle people passing you ... your situational awareness needs to increase IMO.

four days and you were signed off .... man, I must be a slow learner, it took me at least 6-8 days, and even after that ... I wanted an instructor. Crap, I still want an instructor to ride with me ... :)