This coming weekend will be my 10th drivers school. I finally bought a set of r-compound tires (toyo ra-1). I have been running Potenza SO3's. Does anyone have any tips for me for the transition from the high performance street tires to the R-compounds? Any input will be appreciated. Thanks.

Hoping to move to R-comps later this year so subscribing to this thread.

just go faster =)

don't forget that you can stop really quick now if you use that stop pedal effectively (press hard!)


This coming weekend will be my 10th drivers school. I finally bought a set of r-compound tires (toyo ra-1). I have been running Potenza SO3's. Does anyone have any tips for me for the transition from the high performance street tires to the R-compounds? Any input will be appreciated. Thanks.

The RA-1 is a very, very good choice for your first time on Dot-R rubber. Very durable, long lasting, a little harder compound than some others (also a little slower than some others, but that's OK).

The only advice I'd give is a word of caution, when they give up, they tend to give up grip faster than a street tire. As in, noticeably faster. They are not as progressive nor forgiving.

Also, if you're running a DOT-R like a Hoosier road race tire, and you don't have ABS, you can go through a brand new $240 tire in NO time if you lock them up and flat spot them, or worse, lock up a few times (the flat spot will "find" itself and keep locking up there) eventually leading to a puncture.

But damn, they're better.

I'm in nearly the same situation as you, I'm almost through my second set of RA-1s. A couple pieces that I learned the hard way...

You have to watch your pressures much closer. 2 psi too low and you will see serious wear compared to having them correct. Get some help here from the experts, but I was told to shoot for 38 psi hot, that puts me at 33-34 cold for most tracks. I had to find a real pressure gauge at this point.

If you are camber-limited like me (I've got my 330i maxed for camber on a stock setup, no pins), you will wear the outsides of your fronts and barely touch the insides. You have to flip them fairly regularly to keep the wear even. I've had to rotate mine too after abusing them at an autocross school.

The only other things that I've noticed is that you will see more pad wear, rotor wear and more heat generated from braking, more front bumper scrub on the ground from cornering and braking, more body roll and suspension travel from higher cornering force. And the RA1s tramline on the street like mad, I have to clutch the wheel to keep the car in a single lane driving to and from the track.

The only advice I'd give is a word of caution, when they give up, they tend to give up grip faster than a street tire. As in, noticeably faster. They are not as progressive nor forgiving.


Hmm...I had the opposite experience with my RA-1s. I ran my fastest times on them just before they corded.

You just need to learn the new limits.

Some people make it seem like R-Comps tend to break away without notice, and are un-catchable. I've found most to act similar to street tires, just more overall grip and heat capacity.

Now, driving a short wheelbase kart w/ slicks is another story.....

Hmm...I had the opposite experience with my RA-1s. I ran my fastest times on them just before they corded.

Tom, i think he means as the start to slide, not in tire life.

Hmm...I had the opposite experience with my RA-1s. I ran my fastest times on them just before they corded.

halfshaft was referring to their breakaway nature and not their life.

That said, I can guarantee you that Toyo's are faster for the first two-four heat cycles...otherwise all of the World Challenge teams and Spec Miata guys who are forced to run Toyo's would just run them till they cord. I've experienced it myself on my Spec Miata. Maybe you just got better at driving or more accustomed to the extra grip as the tires got older?

just go faster =)

don't forget that you can stop really quick now if you use that stop pedal effectively (press hard!)
NO KIDDING!!!

I drove on hoosiers for the first time 2 weeks ago. The car was braking much harder than it ever had before. :eek:

My obervations of trying to make the switch are this (R3S04 at auto-x).....
The tires seem to brake loose about as easy as street tires, but there's is MUCH more grip as they slide that allows you to stay in the gas. I was WOT in a sweeper that I normally have to be about 3/4 throttle and the car was well balanced and gripping in the slide around the sweeper.

That was on stock suspension, I just put TC Kline coilovers on a few days ago and I am going to auto-x this weekend (if the weather behaves) to try it out again.

This coming weekend will be my 10th drivers school. I finally bought a set of r-compound tires (toyo ra-1). I have been running Potenza SO3's. Does anyone have any tips for me for the transition from the high performance street tires to the R-compounds? Any input will be appreciated. Thanks.

One of the biggest differences (in addition to everything that's said above) is that you don't get an audible warning when reaching the limits of adhesion on corners (i.e. tires screaming). When you push beyond the tire's limits, they tend to just go and the first couple of times it's hard to catch an oversteer situation (ask me how I know). Have fun.

Congratulations...the RA1 is an excellent choice (Toyos should start paying me as much as I whore them out :D ).

The 'squealing' comment is a great observation. Toyos will squeal a tiny bit but hearing massive squealing on street tires is the best way newbies can know they're over driving the car. You won't get that with the RA1, you'll need other cues to know you're beating the tires up.

As others have said, just drive the damned car...nothing to worry about with the RA1. Mine like 40psi hot and if you get a wear issue it's likely due to poor pressures. Shaving is not at all required but they will be faster if shaved. Rotate them after the first day of a track weekend.

For me, in racing, I notice that if they start sliding a little bit I can get the tires back if I just dial a lap or 1.5 laps back a bit. You shouldn't be going that fast in a DE setting to where you'd lose the grip to heat.

Yeah, sorry if I wasn't clear, I was referring to their breakaway nature.

A good thing to do is to get a probe-type pyrometer, and make it a habit to check temps (also pressures) directly after each session. This can give a wealth of info and help you make the tires last longer, by making pressure changes, or even alignment changes.

Remember that each track is different, though.

Also, warm up is more critical than street tires. Get heat into them on your warm up lap by speeding up, then hitting the brakes, over and over. You can even drag the brakes here and there to maintain the heat. Make sure no one's going to nail you from behind! Contrary to popular belief, this puts more heat in than weaving side to side, which serves mainly to clean build-up from the paddock or off line driving from the tire.

I too will be new to R-compounds this year.

I purchased the Kuhmo Victoracer V700's. I've been auto-x'ing and lapping for about 2 years (35 auto-x events, 6 lapping sessions), and this year I may actually be competitive! :buttrock

I know about chalking the tires to find good pressures (don't have money for a pyrometer) but any recommondation for a starting pressure. they are 225/50/16 full tread tires.

I was told to heat cycle them before my first auto-x event, any one know how to do this?

My obervations of trying to make the switch are this (R3S04 at auto-x).....
The tires seem to brake loose about as easy as street tires, but there's is MUCH more grip as they slide that allows you to stay in the gas. I was WOT in a sweeper that I normally have to be about 3/4 throttle and the car was well balanced and gripping in the slide around the sweeper.


R3S04 Hoosiers are not the ideal tire for autox since they take too long to heat up. If you have two driver and it's not too crowded they can be OK though.

A tire engineer from Toyo responded to my request and gave me the following guidelines for the RA1. This will give you the best performance/life for the tire:

1. Shoot for 37 to 42psi HOT. Forget about the cold temps, measure the temps after your session and adjust from thre.

2. 160 minimum to 220 maximum for tire temps

3. If possible 3 degrees of negative camber

4. Flip on the rim when half worn

5. Store the tires in black plastic bags, away from sunlight and sources of ozone. Drop the pressure to 10psi and store them flat (horizontal).

Great tires, one of the best for DE. Not as fast as an all out race tire, but hey, they last about 3 times as long and still go fast enough to be fun.

Enjoy.

I was told to heat cycle them before my first auto-x event, any one know how to do this?

Option 1: Pay Tire Rack to do it for you when they order them.

Option 2: Put them on the car, go out and drive the piss out of them, enough to get a good amount of heat into them (don't kill anyone), then go home, take them off the car, and let them sit for 48 hours before tracking them.

My obervations of trying to make the switch are this (R3S04 at auto-x).....
The tires seem to brake loose about as easy as street tires, but there's is MUCH more grip as they slide that allows you to stay in the gas. I was WOT in a sweeper that I normally have to be about 3/4 throttle and the car was well balanced and gripping in the slide around the sweeper.



Not being critical, just trying to learn more...

Were you really 'sliding' the tires? If so, this would seem to be an expensive way to drive the car/tire combo (laying down alot of $$$ tread depth).

Or were you just operating the tire at the higher slip angle that, IIRC, R-comps like the best?

Kent 'never driven on R-comps b4'

Here's my advice: go out and drive the exact same line as you did before - same braking, turn-in points, etc. What you will notice is that your car no longer feels as "on the edge" as it was. This is because you will have a lot more grip than before, while braking turning and accellerating. You'll feel like you're overslowing - that you can turn in a lot sooner (DON'T!) and get on the gas a lot earlier and that you are not using all of the track out. This means you can go through the corner faster than you were on street tires. You'll also feel like your car is getting to the apex sooner even though you're turning the steering wheel the same amount as you did before. This is because the sidewall is much stiffer than the street tires and respond much more quickly when you turn the wheel.

My recommendation is to do several laps like this, and make sure you check the pressures and/or temps if you have someone who can help in the pits. Then start to gradually move your braking points farther in the turns so you're braking in less distance. Then start giving more gas and earlier. Unwind the wheel more fully than you would have before while you're feeding in the power. Get used to the rapid response from the turn of the steering wheel to the response of the front end to want to "get to the apex quicker". Gradually bring yourself so you're going through the corner faster each time, but make sure you're always doing the same racing line you learner before because that didn't change.

Whatever you do, don't try to "just go faster because you can". As people alluded to above, the tires will have much more grip but when you exceed the available grip your ability to control/recover will drop off quickly and dramatically so you are better off gradually building your limits than trying to bust right through the envelope.

The last step in driving r-compounds is that they are actually faster with a good bit of slip angle through a turn. Hoosiers especially but Toyos have it too. When you are powering out of a turn, you will feel the back end starting to come out, and it can be unsettling to someone who doesn't have a lot of experience on r-compounds. That is the tires "taking a set" - they like to go out to 4-8 degrees of slip and that's where they grip the best. So if you're not used to it you may think the back end is starting to come out, and lift a little, and you can get into a bit of trouble. My advice here is to practice slow in fast out and then you will get the feel of it without being too close to the edge.

Hope this helps - good luck!!!

-Mike

Thanks, Mike. Very thoughtful, good info.

Jay (a long way to go yet)

Here's my advice: go out and drive the exact same line as you did before - same braking, turn-in points, etc. What you will notice is that your car no longer feels as "on the edge" as it was. This is because you will have a lot more grip than before, while braking turning and accellerating. You'll feel like you're overslowing - that you can turn in a lot sooner (DON'T!) and get on the gas a lot earlier and that you are not using all of the track out. This means you can go through the corner faster than you were on street tires. You'll also feel like your car is getting to the apex sooner even though you're turning the steering wheel the same amount as you did before. This is because the sidewall is much stiffer than the street tires and respond much more quickly when you turn the wheel.

My recommendation is to do several laps like this, and make sure you check the pressures and/or temps if you have someone who can help in the pits. Then start to gradually move your braking points farther in the turns so you're braking in less distance. Then start giving more gas and earlier. Unwind the wheel more fully than you would have before while you're feeding in the power. Get used to the rapid response from the turn of the steering wheel to the response of the front end to want to "get to the apex quicker". Gradually bring yourself so you're going through the corner faster each time, but make sure you're always doing the same racing line you learner before because that didn't change.

Whatever you do, don't try to "just go faster because you can". As people alluded to above, the tires will have much more grip but when you exceed the available grip your ability to control/recover will drop off quickly and dramatically so you are better off gradually building your limits than trying to bust right through the envelope.

The last step in driving r-compounds is that they are actually faster with a good bit of slip angle through a turn. Hoosiers especially but Toyos have it too. When you are powering out of a turn, you will feel the back end starting to come out, and it can be unsettling to someone who doesn't have a lot of experience on r-compounds. That is the tires "taking a set" - they like to go out to 4-8 degrees of slip and that's where they grip the best. So if you're not used to it you may think the back end is starting to come out, and lift a little, and you can get into a bit of trouble. My advice here is to practice slow in fast out and then you will get the feel of it without being too close to the edge.

Hope this helps - good luck!!!

-Mike

I run in an E30 Spec series and our spec tire is the Toyo RA-1. Great tire, and for a DE you can run them all the way to the cords, that is, if your DE will allow that little tread depth. Stock they come 8/32 tread depth, I keep one set full tread for my rain tires, we normally shave to 4/32 for a dry track. (I'm in Seattle... did someone mention rain?) But you can run them full tread and they should not chunk up like some regular high performance tires do. Depending on the track, full tread is about 2 seconds a lap slower than half tread, but again for a DE, that's not a big deal.

AIM tire in California and Vilven Tire are good sources for RA-1s. Their prices are about the same, usually the shipping cost based on geography makes the decision for you. Either place can do a nice shave too.

cheers,

Lance Richert
'88 325i Pro-3

on toyos 38psi hot is the magic number. I run 245/45/16 on my e30 and have to realy work to get them to temp, the other weekend at shenandoah i was barely breaking 130deg. I gotta say I already love these tires over the v700's i used to have

R3S04 Hoosiers are not the ideal tire for autox since they take too long to heat up. If you have two driver and it's not too crowded they can be OK though.
yes, I know they aren't the ideal tires for auto-x. The car is normally single driven and occasionally co-driven.

They are ideal for me because I got 4 sets for free :devillook


Not being critical, just trying to learn more...

Were you really 'sliding' the tires? If so, this would seem to be an expensive way to drive the car/tire combo (laying down alot of $$$ tread depth).

Or were you just operating the tire at the higher slip angle that, IIRC, R-comps like the best?

Kent 'never driven on R-comps b4'

its a greater slip angle, but its has that feeling of sliding, you actually are sliding just a touch, but its not like a drift or anything. The saying goes "if you're not sliding, you're not going fast enough".

I am still pretty new myself to the r-comp tire. These are just observations for a small bit of research, and very limited seat time on the r-comps

.....Ive been building up an e 30 to DE/spec e30 and have the toyos in my garage ready to go. This thread has given me tons of info that mightve taken me a year or two to figure out......thanks!