http://www.evosport.com/product/proddetail.aspx?partnum=EVO.PER.M5K.PPC.211

I saw this kit, that is meant to supplement a benz aftercooler kit. It got me thinking, why not convert out kits to -AN fittings, add a reservior (PS), and a even a small HE. Granted the smaller diameter hose will reduce the flow, but it would clean the plumbing up, and hose clamps. I remember a guy relocated his PS pump for an intercooler, so there would be room for it.

What do you think?

JMC

I think it'll be expensive, but look bling as hell ;)

Boris

For what applicication? The rms heat xchanger is bigger and more efficient I bet.

Same $100 Bosch pump found in the RMS kit, $50 worth of hoses and fittings, a custom wee little heat exchanger, what looks like a standard $30 BMW/Benz PS reservoir, and some odds and ends hardware...probably costs about $350 to duplicate that, or less, since you really don't need a second pump.

Just as an FYI, the FMHE I'm getting from RMS is only running me $400, it's 4x the size of the evosport Benz unit, and additional hoses, elbows and clamps will probably cost me about $20, and the single Bosch pump can handle the volume of both the original HE and FMHE. Additionally, the RMS unit is already sized to fit right in the lower grill opening of an E36, has the proper bracketry and is boxed in as well, for better airflow over the HE cores. Don't know what they've done in that regard for the E36/7, the size of the Benz unit may work better for your application.

http://www.evosport.com/product/proddetail.aspx?partnum=EVO.PER.M5K.PPC.211

I saw this kit, that is meant to supplement a benz aftercooler kit. It got me thinking, why not convert out kits to -AN fittings, add a reservior (PS), and a even a small HE. Granted the smaller diameter hose will reduce the flow, but it would clean the plumbing up, and hose clamps. I remember a guy relocated his PS pump for an intercooler, so there would be room for it.

What do you think?

JMC

If you are interested in FMHE, contact "sgi4side" on this board. :)

I am actually thinking about getting a bigger one (my current one has about the same volume as RMS's unit) with more surface area that extends up to top of the front bumper. I may put two holes in the front bumper just like Dinan ISR3 Roadster to expose the FMHE.

Same $100 Bosch pump found in the RMS kit, $50 worth of hoses and fittings, a custom wee little heat exchanger, what looks like a standard $30 BMW/Benz PS reservoir, and some odds and ends hardware...probably costs about $350 to duplicate that, or less, since you really don't need a second pump.

Just as an FYI, the FMHE I'm getting from RMS is only running me $400, it's 4x the size of the evosport Benz unit, and additional hoses, elbows and clamps will probably cost me about $20, and the single Bosch pump can handle the volume of both the original HE and FMHE. Additionally, the RMS unit is already sized to fit right in the lower grill opening of an E36, has the proper bracketry and is boxed in as well, for better airflow over the HE cores. Don't know what they've done in that regard for the E36/7, the size of the Benz unit may work better for your application.
Croak

Will you replace or supplement your current FMHE? Will you make any cooling fan changes? What is your goal?

I'm keeping the existing heat exchanger and running it along with the new FMHE.

No fan changes, though originally I had thought to remove the original heat exchanger, reinstall the factory aux fan, and run just the FMHE. That would have solved my occasional temp creep when running the AC at idle/low speeds.

Then I found out that running BOTH heat exchangers gives you significantly lower IATs. And the "boxed in" design of the FMHE, combined with more efficient water cooling by spreading it out to two units (and doubling water capacity) should keep the AC condenser cooler as well, solving the temp issues in that regard too. And really, once I ditched the SPAL puller fan and installed the 318 clutch fan, I haven't had any AC issues.

So, my ultimate goal is more power due to lower charge temps.

I'm keeping the existing heat exchanger and running it along with the new FMHE.

No fan changes, though originally I had thought to remove the original heat exchanger, reinstall the factory aux fan, and run just the FMHE. That would have solved my occasional temp creep when running the AC at idle/low speeds.

Then I found out that running BOTH heat exchangers gives you significantly lower IATs. And the "boxed in" design of the FMHE, combined with more efficient water cooling by spreading it out to two units (and doubling water capacity) should keep the AC condenser cooler as well, solving the temp issues in that regard too. And really, once I ditched the SPAL puller fan and installed the 318 clutch fan, I haven't had any AC issues.

So, my ultimate goal is more power due to lower charge temps.
Do you have to relocate your oil cooler?

>>Then I found out that running BOTH heat exchangers gives you significantly lower IATs<<

With ambient of 80 degrees, and normal RMS aftercooler IATs of near 120 degrees cruising after a half hour of ' normal ' driving on the street, how would your Dual heat exchanger setup compare IAT-wise with the prior single HE of near 120?

Supposedly around 20 degrees cooler, and rock steady, much less prone to low speed soaking and taking longer to soak while parked due to the greater water volume.

I can't verify that until I install it myself, but I don't have any reason to doubt it, nearly doubling the water, exchanger area and time flowing through the exchanger would keep the water temps much closer to ambient, the limiting factor then becomes the surface area of the aftercooler core.

And yeah, I'll have to relocate my VPD cooler core (actually, replace it). My plan there was to get the proper fittings and use the Euro cooler core with the VPD cap for a nice neat out of the way oil cooler setup.

You E36 guys are so lucky with all that room up front :)

You can see my HE and pusher fan just behind my VPD Oil Cooler.

http://www.digitalsimple.com/TheMCoupeProject/miscpics/forweb-IMG_3872.jpg

I looked at the s52 rad in my M coupe that I just removed. It had the tabs needed at the bottom of the rad to mount the S54 oil cooler, so all you need is the plastic bracket and bolt.

PN

17 21 2 224 084 oil cooler (1 bracket is fixed to it)
17512243659 other bracket
11652243770 bolt


JMC

Supposedly around 20 degrees cooler, and rock steady, much less prone to low speed soaking and taking longer to soak while parked due to the greater water volume.

I can't verify that until I install it myself, but I don't have any reason to doubt it, nearly doubling the water, exchanger area and time flowing through the exchanger would keep the water temps much closer to ambient, the limiting factor then becomes the surface area of the aftercooler core.

And yeah, I'll have to relocate my VPD cooler core (actually, replace it). My plan there was to get the proper fittings and use the Euro cooler core with the VPD cap for a nice neat out of the way oil cooler setup.

20 degress should put you over the 400rwhp mark :redspot

I've heard 1% power increase for every 10 degrees you lower the IATs...

that should put you right over 400rwhp! With no other changes...

-Dave

>>Supposedly around 20 degrees cooler, and rock steady, much less prone to low speed soaking and taking longer to soak while parked due to the greater water volume<<

Thats nice... That will be cutting in HALF what the one unit is doing, allowing you to be measuring ambient plus just 15 to 20 degrees.. thats friekin incredible. Maybe youll post the plumbing between the two at some point.. You running them in parallel? or series?? Which is best? Why? etc, etc.... Do you need a bigger, or extra pump to drive through the extra HE?

BTW, u sure you still need to run that 318 fan? I thought I had to also, since it came with the dinan kit. Imagine my surprise when we fitted the oe M3 fan with no problems? I know my radiator is a hair forward of yours, but maybe with a little filing you could fit it? It made a big difference on mine...

Well, good luck with your new HE.. Cant wait to hear about fitment issues, and plumbing. .IF the news is too good, I may have to copy you.. Oh No..... ;) lol

EDIT: was just thinking of that stupid lil hayden fan. YOu just gonna pull it off, and forget about fans? With the dual setup, I bet they wouldnt do you much good anyway in that youll cool down so fast when moving even slowly you wont need it.

I wonder how much of the lower IAT increase is due to passing through an additional heat exchanger VS increasing the water capacity.

I wonder how much more efficent the aftercooler would be with a similar reseviour added (effectively increasing water capacity)....

More water should delay the onset of heat soak.. so if you are stuck in traffic - perhaps the additional water will allow you to never get heatsoaked during everyday driving.

Anyhow, it's late and I'm just rambling so I better stop.. lol.. :)

BTW, u sure you still need to run that 318 fan? I thought I had to also, since it came with the dinan kit. Imagine my surprise when we fitted the oe M3 fan with no problems? I know my radiator is a hair forward of yours, but maybe with a little filing you could fit it? It made a big difference on mine...



Paul, you have a cut fan shroud, I do not. It's not the front-to-back clearance that's the issue with the M3 fan, it's the top-to-bottom.

Paul, you have a cut fan shroud, I do not. It's not the front-to-back clearance that's the issue with the M3 fan, it's the top-to-bottom.

I see.. youre referring to the hemisphereical section that sits on top of the shroud? Thats the main part that gets hacked off on the Dinan installations, I believe. I need to go outside and have another look, and see if my OE fan, at its top extent, would hit if that piece were not removed? Why does the sc installation move the northern extent of the fan up, so that this plastic hemisphere needed removing? Im not doubting that it does, but at the moment i cant think of what specfically in the installation did it..

You'll notice that the "dome" is larger in diameter on the outside, and reduces in diameter as you get closer to the radiator. With the SC crank pulley and fan extender moving the fan location forward, the larger diameter M3 fan would hit this dome if it wasn't chopped off, even using Dinan's radiator mounts to pull the radiator forwards.

Using Dinan's mounts, the 318 fan is small enough in diameter that you don't need to hack up the shroud, though Dinan's install instructions still call for this (as a "just in case" measure, is my guess). And if you didn't use their relocation brackets, even the 318 fan would hit the dome.

In my case, there's almost an inch of clearance between the fan blades and the highest portion of the dome, and for it to make contact with the low portion it would have to move forward almost two inches. This COULD happen if the fan backed off the nut, or if one of the blades got seriously bent by something, but it's no more likely in my situation than an OEM fan hitting the shroud on an NA car.

By keeping the dome intact, I'm getting better directed airflow (that dome IS there for a purpose), which somewhat makes up for the loss in diameter/blade size using the M3 fan after you cut the dome. As a side effect, I have a nice clean install and my fan is not likely to chop off a finger. :)

>>By keeping the dome intact, I'm getting better directed airflow (that dome IS there for a purpose), which somewhat makes up for the loss in diameter/blade size using the M3 fan after you cut the dome. As a side effect, I have a nice clean install. <<

YOu bring up a real good point. It would be interesting to see whether the 318 fan with the dome in tact, is more effective than my M3 oe fan, with the dome decimated. Does the rms installation, which does not move the radiator forward like the dinan installation does, also call for the decimation of the fan shroud dome? That dinan not only decimates the dome, but also includes the 318 fan seems like needless, counter productive overkill, doesnt it!

>>By keeping the dome intact, I'm getting better directed airflow (that dome IS there for a purpose), which somewhat makes up for the loss in diameter/blade size using the M3 fan after you cut the dome. As a side effect, I have a nice clean install. <<

YOu bring up a real good point. It would be interesting to see whether the 318 fan with the dome in tact, is more effective than my M3 oe fan, with the dome decimated. Does the rms installation, which does not move the radiator forward like the dinan installation does, also call for the decimation of the fan shroud dome? That dinan not only decimates the dome, but also includes the 318 fan seems like needless, counter productive overkill, doesnt it!

Paul - trust me - dinan's overkill is just good, safe engineering. I had so (and I do mean SOOOO) many fan problems.. it was incredible. Given the kind of damage that can occur... being overly safe is a heaven sent! In other words... Dinan did this right!

RMS provides a custom cut fan - as part of their kit. When I had issues, Osh sent me a few custom cut fans.. (to Osh's credit at no charge and he shipped them free overnight) each one continued to have problems... So much so, I decided to just get an electric fan.. and stop worrying about fans continually demolishing my raditor and denting my hood.

Anyone that has had fan problems, will know the kind of hell I went through....

:help

I looked at the s52 rad in my M coupe that I just removed. It had the tabs needed at the bottom of the rad to mount the S54 oil cooler, so all you need is the plastic bracket and bolt.

PN

17 21 2 224 084 oil cooler (1 bracket is fixed to it)
17512243659 other bracket
11652243770 bolt


JMC

Thanks for the part numbers, got it ordered (though I probably should have looked at the underside of my radiator first, it's a Behr replacement). :)

With the SC crank pulley and fan extender moving the fan location forward, the larger diameter M3 fan would hit this dome if it wasn't chopped off, even using Dinan's radiator mounts to pull the radiator forwards.
I had an electric fan installed before I installed my Dinan SC. Consequently, I didn't install the 318 fan or hack my shroud. Would I have used a fan extender if I had installed the fan (I still have it in an unopened box)? I'm real interested in knowing this because I'm going to reinstall my radiator this weekend after having removed my electric fan. I was planning on installing my original fan a la Paul E. Perhaps I should use my 318 fan instead?

I was in the same situation, had done the fan-delete before installing the SC, then installed the SPAL fan, then removed the SPAL fan and used the Dinan supplied fan and extender after installing the aftercooler.

The extender should be in the same package, hard to miss, a big stainless nut with a female end to accept the 318 fan. Without the extender, neither the stock or 318 fan will work, since the fan won't clear the SC pulley.

>>I had so (and I do mean SOOOO) many fan problems.. it was incredible. Given the kind of damage that can occur... being overly safe is a heaven sent! In other words... Dinan did this right!
<<

Dave, Sure you would say that, given your fan ordeal. But believe me, i wasnt thrilled when after having used the dinky 318 fan for years, I found that with no trials or tribulations, george bolted up my M3 fan, and aside from filing a corner of the shroud down a hair, which wasnt even necessary, its been not only performing like a champ for almost a year now, but its saving me from overheating on hot summer days in traffic with the ac on, now that the aftercooler is mounted. Youll probably tell me that for the application dinan designed, the 318 fan was fine.. Sure.. But NOT as fine as the M3 fan, which fits it perfectly.

>> Without the extender, neither the stock or 318 fan will work, since the fan won't clear the SC pulley<<

Ayup.. so true.. I forget where my extender came from, but I figure it Must have come in the dinan kit.. Bummer.. that means if I lose or damage mine, Ill probably be forced to buy a whole new Dinan supercharger, just to get the part! ;)

Dave, Sure you would say that, given your fan ordeal. But believe me, i wasnt thrilled when after having used the dinky 318 fan for years, I found that with no trials or tribulations, george bolted up my M3 fan, and aside from filing a corner of the shroud down a hair, which wasnt even necessary, its been not only performing like a champ for almost a year now, but its saving me from overheating on hot summer days in traffic with the ac on, now that the aftercooler is mounted. Youll probably tell me that for the application dinan designed, the 318 fan was fine.. Sure.. But NOT as fine as the M3 fan, which fits it perfectly.


I agree, for it sure seems to have worked for you. I've never had overheating problems with my spal mid-range pull fan... but then again I still have the fan shroud.

Dinan must have a reason for including the 318 fan.. because this actually cost them money... if reusing the fan was deemed safe, they would have tried to save $$$.. we know how cheap dinan can be... :D

I will be getting a upgraded Front Mounted Heat Exchanger (from Sgi4Side from this board) that will nearly double the volume of current one with greater front area. My current one has nearly identical volume as RMS's heat exchanger so this new one should provide me with greater cooling. :D

Isn't your pump not working properly as well, or something to that effect? If that's the case, then the combo of a new pump, larger H/E, larger crank pulley (I think I recall you wanting to add more boost once the motor was broken in), and a more agressive tune should net you alot of extra HP...

Isn't your pump not working properly as well, or something to that effect? If that's the case, then the combo of a new pump, larger H/E, larger crank pulley (I think I recall you wanting to add more boost once the motor was broken in), and a more agressive tune should net you alot of extra HP...

Well...pump is working fine actually.

When I was picking up the car, the aftercooler was not bled properly, resulting in aftercooler not working 100%. Thus low dyno numbers for not having aftercooler working at the time. Should have been over 500 easy but that's for another day. :D

George and I took care of it before I drove it off that day. Since then I bled the system more thoroughly and it's working very well now. :)

Do you guys think that a large oil cooler heat exchanger, like something setrab makes could function as well as a custom HE or the RMS one. They are basically the same thing?
I have been considering a FMHE for awhile now (too bad I cant do it right now cause I would have bought sigs), so I figured I would look into production HE. There are so many sizes available. I just wanted to know if a properly sized oil cooler would cut it.

Also alot of the ford cobra aftermarket HE have a fair price.

JMC

Croak,

Whats the word on this new setup of yours. Hows it looking and pls can you take lots of pics of the whole thing.

Michael

Croak,

Whats the word on this new setup of yours. Hows it looking and pls can you take lots of pics of the whole thing.

Michael

Sure, just as soon as I pick it up.

Its a shame that I have a very similar setup and haven't been able to test it :mad

On a side note, I has seen in a ricey magazine (the NSX still is technically RICE :D ) that someone makes in intake system, that basically has CO2 or Nitrous Oxide inside this chamber that surrounds a 3" or 3.5" Intake tube. It is designed to be charged once, and then releases slowly into the atmosphere.

If someone knows what I am talking about, let me know... I figured its a cheap Intercooler sprayer for those w/o intercoolers... but may still prove beneficial for those who are FI.

It is ironic that I started this read based on the interest of converting my hoses to the AN fittings and black braided hose based on the eurosport pics. It turns out my aftercooler HE has a leak. After constantly having to top it off, and searching high and low for a leak it turns out it was the threads where one of the plastic nipples attaches to the HE. I tried to re teflon tape it, use pipe puddy, and even put an entirely new nipple in with no results. The problem with the plastic is it does not taper, making a poor seal. I pulled the HE and Osh sent me a new one in three days thanks to Marco.

Of course the Old "While its out..." creeped in and I decided to convert my fittings. I also bought a new Jabsco pump with threaded fittings so I could keep everything AN. My current pump only allows hose clamps (it is forsale).

I will post pics when I am done. I have not decided on adding a resevior or secondary HE yet. It seems to pricy. Besided AN fittings (the ANO-TUFF black ones that I like) are very expensive.

Aside from the bling factor, this will be one bullet proof, leak proof set up when I am done. Although not cost effective.

JMC