Anybody know why the race times/results are gone from mylaps? They were there a couple days ago...

http://www.mylaps.com/results/showevent.jsp?id=62757

Yeah...I noticed that, too. System problem, maybe?

Thats weird, maybe some results are being changed

Hey, man, I am sorry my comments about that attractive young lady rubbed you the wrong way. I really am. I literally meant zero disrespect, and lots of compliment, just as if someone complimented my wife. I realize different folks read it differently.

Its cool. results are gone from the club race site too.

Its cool. results are gone from the club race site too.


Uh-oh.

Still no change...and no results. Interesting....

Maybe someone finally got caught???

Results are back...

Uh-oh.....DQ'ed. Bummer...

Results are back...
Are 13/13's posted anywhere?

Are 13/13's posted anywhere?


No that information is kept private.

Simon, we missed you last weekend!

Simon, we missed you last weekend!

Hey I missed being there! I actually like the Texas track, definitely not a roval. My car is still in the shop getting some much needed TLC. Plus I'm still trying to decide which races are going to get my vacation. I still have to make another cut somewhere, so many good races to go to this year.

This is a bad situation. If Randy's pistons were deemed illegal after the borescope inspection why even allow him to race the enduro. it should have been handled right then and there. The thing I feel feel the worst about is Randy's rep is now tarnished. he is a really good driver with a car built to the limit(in some people opinion over it I guess). I was in contact with Randy everyday during the process of converting his car from IS to IP and I know for a fact that every part part he used in the build up he thought was legal. A club racing sponsor and vendor assured him his pistons were leagal. Ultimatley it is the racer's responsibilty but I still feel for him beacuse no matter how well he does from now on someones is always going to say oh he's only fast because he cheats :(

The thing I feel feel the worst about is Randy's rep is now tarnished. he is a really good driver with a car built to the limit(in some people opinion over it I guess).

I tend to agree with you I think its good for Club Racing that they are seriously upping the tech this year. On the other hand I'm pretty sure Randy wouldn't cheat intentionally he has probably just been misled by a vendor or the builder. I've raced against him and know he is a good driver. In fact most of the cars that I see that are blantantly cheating is just from ignorance to the rules. I know from my recent engine rebuild that I had to be very specific to make sure it was assembled legally. Starting with the pistons which cost me an arm and a leg to buy the stock replacements ($1000) over cheaper aftermarket pistons. I also gave specific instructions in cleaning my head to make sure there was absolutely no porting and polishing. Sometimes you literally have to tell them not to do stuff or they will do it anyway thinking that you would want more power. I actually had a lead on a drop in motor that I passed on because it was too powerful, I know that sounds ridiculous but I decided there was no way it was making that much power and legal in stock. When I questioned them about it they admitted they didn't know what had been done in the build and could not guarantee me it was legal, a reputable tuner had built the motor. Just food for thought you need to be responsible for your own build and not listen to vendors.

:eek: :eek: :eek: ...All I have to say is that Randy is a friend and a good driver, he's a good guy for those of you that don't know him. AA did the work on his motor, and AA tends to build everything to the hilt...built bottom ends, changed compression, headwork etc..etc...that's just the way they are used to doing things to assure relaibility in their motors (at least for the boosted one's they've built)...I'm not so sure they are extremely familiar with rules in any race series since most of their customers are street guys with turbos...Damion's right this is just a bad situation :(

Randy is a very gifted driver. It is too bad about all this.

I really feel for Randy right now. Damion - nobody questions that he's a fast driver. I think that wholesale changes will be coming to club racing and it starts with the major engine builders like VAC, Stickley, Turner, Sunbelt, EvoSport, etc. Club racing has literally doubled in size the last 3-4 years. And the rules have been flaunted for so long, that to continue to gain credibility as a race organization and sanctioning body something had to be done.

Fact: everyone "knows" that lots of cars have "cheater" pistons, valves, etc.
Fact: everyone "knows" that lots of mod cars have underbody aero mods including diffusers
Fact: everyone "knows" that VAC had (until very recently) on their website a "Stage II performance head" that including porting and polishing, and said that it is "prepared legal" but everyone "knows" that porting and polishing is not legal in prepared.

Now here's a fact: There has NEVER, EVER IN THE 10 YEARS OF BMW CCA CLUB RACING been a successful technical protest!!!! Why? I don't get it.

Somehow, the thought is "everyone's doing it so why don't I?" Or maybe it's "well, he's a good guy so no harm no foul." Or maybe it's "well he gave it to VAC/sunbelt/stickley/turner/etc and they build lots of club racing engines so they know what's legal and what's not."

But if you look in any other sanctioning body, SCCA the most notable, they do THOROUGH tech inspections, and get LOTS of protests (with an associated fee!) and publish the results in the FasTrack for all to see.

So I feel for Randy - I really, really do. I met him this weekend and he is a very nice guy, and certainly a very fast driver who can come to a track that he's never raced on, a track that relies on big balls because there aren't a ton of visual cues to go by, and beat the local guys. There's no doubt that it's 99.9% because of his skill and not some non-compliant parts. But ultimately each of us is responsible for our own cars and that's where the buck ends.

My motor was wide open this weekend for all to see - and believe me there were many people coming over to see my clean laundry. I'm sure they would have loved to have found something on my car that wasn't kosher too. But I have worked very hard to make sure everything is compliant on my car and I'm sure everyone else has too. That's racing!

Well put Mike, I know from being very good friends with Stickley that he is very familiar with the rules and he refuses to build illegal motors. Besides the drivers reps being tarnished, it's also the engine builders.

I don't understand the point of cheating......you are only hurting yourself and ruining the rep. of BMW CCA CR.

Well put Mike, I know from being very good friends with Stickley that he is very familiar with the rules and he refuses to build illegal motors. Besides the drivers reps being tarnished, it's also the engine builders.

I don't understand the point of cheating......you are only hurting yourself and ruining the rep. of BMW CCA CR.

Let's not lable anyone a cheater here. I think what Mike and Simon have to say is spot on. It sucks that with something like this that Randy has to shoulder all the consiquences when in fact he may not be the one who knowingly commited the foul. I just hope that if Randy was misled, whoever built the engine steps up to the plate and does right by him.

Let's not lable anyone a cheater here. I think what Mike and Simon have to say is spot on. It sucks that with something like this that Randy has to shoulder all the consiquences when in fact he may not be the one who knowingly commited the foul. I just hope that if Randy was misled, Active steps up to the plate and does right by him.

John you should remove the name active until you get all the facts.

John you should remove the name active until you get all the facts.

Done. The name was already dropped above and not to mention on the hood of Randy's car, but I agree it's jumping the gun. For all we know it may not have been anything wrong with his motor.

I think we all know who built the motor, but we don't know what the problem was/is for sure. Active is a great company and are helping Randy further his racing career. They built the motor with Randy, some parts of that motor where supplied to them with assurance that they where legal for the class.

Randy's put his all into this car over the winter, built it with guidance from trusted people in our sport, it hurts when other people fail and you have to pay the price. I feel terrible for him and his sister, they travel from south Fla. to race with BMW Club all over. I hope he rides this out and still continues to race with Club. He is on this board, lets try and support him and his sponsor.

Paul Hamm

Let's not lable anyone a cheater here. I think what Mike and Simon have to say is spot on. It sucks that with something like this that Randy has to shoulder all the consiquences when in fact he may not be the one who knowingly commited the foul. I just hope that if Randy was misled, whoever built the engine steps up to the plate and does right by him.


I didnt label anyone a cheater. :confused I agreed with Mike's statement and thought that it is both engine builder and owner/racer's responsibility to make sure the motor is legal. I didnt mention any names.

I don't know Randy and I don't race against him, so I'm just a disinterested third party making comment....

IMHO, Randy's reputation from here out is up to Randy.

If he thought he built the engine to the limit of the rules, but still legal, just say, "Hey, by my interpretation I thought it was legal. The stews say otherwise, so we will change it immediately" and IMHO there should be no tarnishing of his rep. Nothing wrong with trying to built a to the limit engine and making a mistake. It happens.

If the fault lay with the engine builder (responsibility is still on Randy's shoulders ultimately though), all Randy has to do is say "I don't race with a knowingly illegal engine and will get to the bottom of this" IMHO his rep is preserved.

Basically, if he acknowledges the engine was illegal and that is unacceptable to him as well and he'll rectify that immediately there is no harm done. I think it's only those who try to make excuses or otherwise cover their butts that ruin their rep.

At the ARRC last fall, Bob Stretch (yes, the same Bob Stretch that races an E46 in World Challenge) was caught with an illegal engine in Spec Pinata. I think he handled the situation correctly and with class. He responded that he acknowledged the responsibility was his, but he didn't know it was illegal. He doesn't knowingly race with illegal cars and accepted whatever was to come of it. He further waived any right to appeal to get the numbers that deemed him illegal so he could get to the bottom of it. He wasn't interested in appealing, only finding out what was wrong so he could deal with it. In his case the engine builder screwed up royally.

In short and to reiterate, what happens to Randy's rep now is up to Randy. As a racer I would never consider someone's rep tarnished if they didn't know their engine was illegal and was diligent about correcting it. It could happen to any of us. I think simonh has it right that many builders just don't get it right unless you oversee every step.

As for the SCCA doing thorough tech inspections... Not really. At big races they may. They do at The Runoffs. At the ARRC (regional "national championships") they do cursory inspections. Pretty much everywhere else it's up to the racers to protest although you might again find cursory inspections at some places. No tech wants to spend all Sunday eveneing up to their elbows in cars when they could be either having beer and BBQ with everyone else or driving or flying home.

I must say I'm pretty disheartened with the way so many club racers are approaching this sport. I have 3 goals each weekend: 1. Be safe. 2. Have a great time with some of the best people I know. 3. Improve as a driver.

There's a reason that the burden for compliance falls on the driver - because the only person that gets cheated is the cheater. I've raced a lot of people and felt great knowing I lost to a much better car or a much better driver. I don't need CR staff cracking the whip against my competition to feel better about myself.

In CR there's one factor that always shows through, the driver. No special cam or aftermarket piston is going to make up for the lack of tallent. If you need such items to beat me - what do I care? I'd rather have someone to race with. I'll be the better driver at the end of the day and still have fun (goals accomplished).

-Sean

First of all, I would like to say thank you to all who have had such kind and supportive words for me over the last few days.

I am as confused as many others are confused. I am currently in the process of trying to understand what has happened since leaving Texas on Sunday and the results reflecting a DQ yesterday. As soon as I can have a clear understanding, I will try to shed some light on the situation.

Regards,
Randy Mueller

Thanks, Randy. As I said above, you are a very gifted driver. Hope this gets all sorted out.

I am interested in seeing how this turns out, and the reaction of Randy.

Who else thinks that the DQ's should be out in the open and posted to the club racing website?

Not sure. It is on the official T&S sheets on the CR site. However, it seems Steve O. has been very clear that this is as far as it will go, and that anyone affected by any DQ is good to go for their next race as long as their car is class-legal. That is probably sensible.

I am interested in seeing how this turns out, and the reaction of Randy.

Who else thinks that the DQ's should be out in the open and posted to the club racing website?


Jon, the rules are the rules and they are quite clear (especially for engine modifications), despite what people say about the not being clear.

The bottom line is that club racing has made it abundantly clear that they will not be waiting for protests that never come, and will be taking a much more active role in rules enforcement this year, across geographies and across classes. End of story. People are GOING to get weighed, and people are GOING to get scoped, and who knows what else?

And it's clear now that people are going to get DQ'ed and not just bumped if found non-compliant.... That's a huge NEW incentive for people who have been looking the other way because "everyone's doing it" on the weight issue or other small things to get their act together...

Who else thinks that the DQ's should be out in the open and posted to the club racing website?

It needs to be publicized so that racers know what exactly was wrong with the engine so we can avoid similar pitfalls. I just had a strong engine built as well, I fully expect to get 'scoped' if I'm ever able to make a BMW event again (VIR, slight...Barber, possible, Road ATL, definitely).

I don't think we need a veil of secrecy but the info should be on the CR site and is best discussed on the CR list.

Jon, the rules are the rules and they are quite clear (especially for engine modifications), despite what people say about the not being clear.

The bottom line is that club racing has made it abundantly clear that they will not be waiting for protests that never come, and will be taking a much more active role in rules enforcement this year, across geographies and across classes. End of story. People are GOING to get weighed, and people are GOING to get scoped, and who knows what else?

And it's clear now that people are going to get DQ'ed and not just bumped if found non-compliant.... That's a huge NEW incentive for people who have been looking the other way because "everyone's doing it" on the weight issue or other small things to get their act together...

I have no problem with the rules, nor enforcement. Even in MOD, where I race, there are rules, and if I see a car in my class with a diffuser, or a Hewland gear box, then guess what, they will get protested.

My statement stands, please post the specific reasons for the DQ, not just the fact that there was a DQ. Believe me, shame works for rules enforcement. Ignorance of the rules is not an excuse (as you stated and I agree with), and enforcement is good by the sanctioning body.

It needs to be publicized so that racers know what exactly was wrong with the engine so we can avoid similar pitfalls. I just had a strong engine built as well, I fully expect to get 'scoped' if I'm ever able to make a BMW event again (VIR, slight...Barber, possible, Road ATL, definitely).

I don't think we need a veil of secrecy but the info should be on the CR site and is best discussed on the CR list.

I think pulicizing what the infraction is, is probably a good idea, I don't really have strong feelings either way. You should already know the rules you don't need to have DQ's publicized to know if your motor is going to pass. Now if you just gave the motor to the vendor and said build me a motor then you might be in trouble. Honestly prepared doesn't allow that much in the way of engine modifications. Add cams, flywheel and injectors thats it. Stock pistons, no porting or polishing, no decking of the head to increase compression except to make the head flat, no coating of the crank, no lightening of the rods etc etc. If you didn't take an active part in the construction of your motor I would go back to the vendor and find out exactly what they did in the build.

If you didn't take an active part in the construction of your motor I would go back to the vendor and find out exactly what they did in the build.

I wasn't commenting on my motor specifically. Randy was a marked man with that engine, I've heard the power is massive. I referred to my new engine because it also makes impressive power and I'll likely get tekked a little closer or even protested. I'm not sure what 'active part in construction means'...I didn't turn any wrenches but I know there is exactly one part that is aftermarket in it. The camshafts, that's it.

James Clay helped with advice and I'm sure Sunbelt built it to specs but I know if I get a DQ it's completely on me. Personally I'm happy to see more attention is being paid to class rules, I just wish the infractions were made public.

I wasn't commenting on my motor specifically. Randy was a marked man with that engine, I've heard the power is massive. I referred to my new engine because it also makes impressive power and I'll likely get tekked a little closer or even protested. I'm not sure what 'active part in construction means'...I didn't turn any wrenches but I know there is exactly one part that is aftermarket in it. The camshafts, that's it.

James Clay helped with advice and I'm sure Sunbelt built it to specs but I know if I get a DQ it's completely on me. Personally I'm happy to see more attention is being paid to class rules, I just wish the infractions were made public.

I know Sunbelt is a reputable engine builder and work with lots of pro teams, they are probably accustomed to building trick motors with all the built goodies...I don't know how familiar they are with club cars or BMW CCA CR rules...or how many such prepared and stock class engine's they've built...

However, if you sat down with them and went over the rules with them and specifically told them things like (for example) that the bottom end must be stock and that there is no porting/polishing work on the head allowed then they should listen to you as the customer, and you should be all good...I think although the onus is on the racer, the key is, like Simon said ;) , spelling things out and communicating with those performing the work...sometimes that's easier said than done it seems :(

I'm not sure what 'active part in construction means'...I didn't turn any wrenches but I know there is exactly one part that is aftermarket in it. The camshafts, that's it.


I didn't necessarily mean you built the motor but just that you knew what went into the build. Since you know that only the camshafts have changed then there is nothing to worry about. Now if they modified the other stock parts to get more power then that would be illegal.

Now if they modified the other stock parts to get more power then that would be illegal.

We talked about that and I strictly forbid them from doing so (they wanted to modify stock lifters to be solid).

We talked about that and I strictly forbid them from doing so (they wanted to modify stock lifters to be solid).

You are all over it, this is exactly the type of stuff you need to discuss with the builder before they get stuck in. Sunbelt might not have much BMWCCA experience but they have a ton of experience in Spec Miata and other series so I'm pretty sure they can build a more powerful 100% legal motor as long as they know the guidelines. You'll be fine.

I wasn't commenting on my motor specifically. Randy was a marked man with that engine, I've heard the power is massive. I referred to my new engine because it also makes impressive power and I'll likely get tekked a little closer or even protested.

Krisko - Randy was NOT a marked man - to my knowledge they looked at EVERY IP and HP motor, his was the only one that came up different. I believe their intention was to WEIGH every Stock and Prepared car, and toe Boroscope every Stock and Prepared car, but Olsen's engine fire and Mike Perkins' late arrival with the Boroscope and the rains damaging the scales Saturday night ate into their ability to do that.

However, I can tell you from speaking to Steve that the intention is to show up at many events and weight and check everyone more thoroughly for both safety and compliance, so expect that you will be checked - not because you are marked but because you are racing!

Krisko - Randy was NOT a marked man - to my knowledge they looked at EVERY IP and HP motor,

However, I can tell you from speaking to Steve that the intention is to show up at many events and weight and check everyone more thoroughly for both safety and compliance, so expect that you will be checked - not because you are marked but because you are racing!

I probably should have phrased that differently...I think Randy was a marked man not in the eyes of the national CR staff but there were rumblings among club racers because his car was just so damned fast.

I say bring on the inspection...I don't want rumors flying about my IP legality when I start winning races coast to coast (maybe a smaller goal is to actually arrive to and complete a BMW race first :( ).

...when I start winning races coast to coast (maybe a smaller goal is to actually arrive to and complete a BMW race first :( ).

don't limit yourself my brotha ;) :stickoutt ! Tell the non-believers out there that the mighty Krisko shall venture north and conquer Canada at battle of Tremblant and Mosport as well!!! lol :D :buttrock ...you gotta start thinkin' like great generals of the world's most dominant ancient armies man!

Tell the non-believers out there that the mighty Krisko shall venture north and conquer Canada at battle of Tremblant and Mosport

I'm looking for a sponsor to bankroll Canadian roadtrips. He'd better be rich too because I'd likely lose my job and possibly my wife if I raced in Canada this year (let me change that to She had better be rich :D ).

He wasn't interested in appealing, only finding out what was wrong so he could deal with it. In his case the engine builder screwed up royally.

That is such BS, Stretch darn well knows EXACTLY what goes on with his engines, he is VERY tight with the builders.

I'm looking for a sponsor to bankroll Canadian roadtrips. He'd better be rich too because I'd likely lose my job and possibly my wife if I raced in Canada this year (let me change that to She had better be rich :D ).


Krisko,

Ask if she has a sister.

:D:D:D