I've been on the fence for a while, but recently decided that I do want to race. My first DE was in August 2003, I've done 11 events, and I've progressed pretty quickly. I've been told by a pro racer that instructed me that I do have the potential to be a good pro racer. I'm not shooting for F1, but I would love to eventually get to World Challenge or ALMS.

I have an E36 M3 right now that will be paid off at the end of this year. It has quite a bit of "stuff" on it: Ground Control w/Koni SAs and camber plates, roll bar, harnesses, a couple sets of track wheels, etc. Although I'd like to primarily race BMW CR, there aren't that many events and competitors in the Midwest. I'd like to race in a competitive class, with a good amount of competition, and a good number of local events. For me it looks like SCCA club racing will be my best bet.

I'd like to stay in an E36, so from little research I'm thinking ITS with an E36 325. Hopefully I can sell my M3 for $15,000 at the end of this year, which would be my racecar budget. I'll probably be able to save a little this year that I could throw at the racecar as well. Am I out of my mind...is this way too little money to put into a 325 to race ITS? I want a fairly competitive car, but don't want to have the best car in the field (in other words, I'd like to really work for wins). Besides the BMW CR site, any other places to look for used racecars?

Any input would be very appreciated. I'd like to know if my budget is way too small, should I take parts off my M3 to use for the 325 (i.e. suspension), is ITS a good and competitive class, would an ITS car fit well into a specific BMW CR class???? Other suggestions on cars/classes that would be a somewhat economical class???

its is a great class, if you ahve the money grab a e46 323 there new in its this year and look to be a good platform. also understand that if you run alms or wc most of the time you pay your way.

Yes, way too little money. Up to a point, its all about how much money you can drop for preparation. Used ITS cars w/ spares are mid 20s. Then figure you would drop a fair amount over that to bring it to your spec or have the motor rebuilt, + trailer, + tow, + tires + pads + wheels + etc... I'm sure at the top levels most drivers/teams have lots of money tied up. Look at the pits in an BMWCCA club race, that's hobby racing and most have enclosed trailers and tons of spares. For $15k you could do an arrive and drive w/ miatas or some formula cars at 1500 a weekend. Otherwise, make more money and get ready to spend it.

Not to be negative or rain on the parade here, but...if you want to someday race ALMS or Speed WC, money will be the obstacle. If you financed your e36, then chances are that you'll need to have some major material change in your personal finances for pro racing to become a realistic goal. As someone else said, pro racing is for those who can pay their way, regardless of how good you are. There are exceptions to that but only a handful.

With a $15,000 race car budget, think Spec Miata. You are sure to have big fields almost anywhere in the U.S., and there's even a Pro series that you can get some more advanced experience in. As another plus, the cars are easy on tires and brakes, cutting running costs down compared to something like an ITS car or faster.

The question is, do you really want to race, or do you really want to keep driving a BMW? If you really want to race, don't limit yourself to BMW's...just figure out how to get out there racing. The sooner the better. No amount of DE's is going to prepare you for racing, so don't be surprised when you go out and find yourself not winning, no matter how fast you can drive the car around the track.

A good, new , top of the line, E36 ITS would cost almost $50K to build.

Damn you Bryan. :) You said exactly what I would have said. A lot of times BMW CR is nothing but a fancy driving school if you don't have a lot of class competition. If you want to really learn racecraft, Spec Miata is the way to go, and it's at least economically viable.

If you want to really learn racecraft, Spec Miata is the way to go, and it's at least economically viable.

Bingo. Racecraft is something you can't learn at a DE or on a simulator...you've simply gotta experience it. Spec Miata is the only class I've raced (save for Star Mazda Pro races...which, interestly enough, are also a spec car) where there was always someone pressuring me and I was always pressuring someone else for almost every lap of the race. And that happens whether you are running at the front or near the back. Learning to defend and attack at the same time is what seperates folks who just drive fast from those who race well.

And, to top it all off, Spec Miata is still some of the most economical racing on the planet (unless you want to run Top 5 on a Pro weekend).

If you have good karting tracks and clubs in your area, that's also a very good option. Unfortunately, sprint karting doesn't exist here in the Southeast.

With a $15,000 race car budget, think Spec Miata. .
I agree Spec Miata, if you want to see how good you are, for less money. You can buy a used top car for around 15-20K. That might sound like a lot but that will be with the best of everything and a proven winner with a sunbelt motor etc. Of course you can buy a car for much less than that, under 10K, but that will not get you a championship car. If you are serious about trying to go pro get into go karts. Then try a ladder series like barber dodge, but again you will need a lot of money to make it, I think a year of barber will cost something like 30K, I'm just ball parking that figure I have no experience. You have to realise that unless you are a complete phenom you are going to need lots and lots of money, even if you are good. The number of drivers in World Challenge that are paid is not what you would think, I consider it semi-pro at best. Not that there aren't some awesome drivers, there are a lot and some are paid, but there are also a lot of guys with just a lot of money to spend. Naturally you can't blame them because I would do the same damn thing if I had the money.

making a good living at racing in this country = going up the ranks in stock car racing...then maybe be givin a test/shot at Bush and then Nextel Cup (NASCAR)...don't get me wrong your going to need money still to get there...but make no mistake that is where the money is at the end of the ladder, hell make it big in stock car racing and you can afford to go sports car racing "on the side" and even own a team here and there in other series...I absolutely love sports car racing VERY much, but it's just not there yet in terms of the crowds, fans, and sponsorship dollars...

best of luck to ya...now go git'r done man ;) :stickoutt

With a $15,000 race car budget, think Spec Miata. You are sure to have big fields almost anywhere in the U.S., and there's even a Pro series that you can get some more advanced experience in. As another plus, the cars are easy on tires and brakes, cutting running costs down compared to something like an ITS car or faster.

The question is, do you really want to race, or do you really want to keep driving a BMW? If you really want to race, don't limit yourself to BMW's...just figure out how to get out there racing. The sooner the better. No amount of DE's is going to prepare you for racing, so don't be surprised when you go out and find yourself not winning, no matter how fast you can drive the car around the track.

A good, new , top of the line, E36 ITS would cost almost $50K to build.

Although I'd like to stay in a BMW, I'm slowly coming to the realization that it's proabably not feasible with my budget. There is quite a bit of competition in Spec Miata and that thought had crossed my mind a couple times. Hopefully I can get a car toward the end of this season or in the off-season.

I can drive pretty well, but I do realize that there are a lot of guys that can get around a track quickly but aren't good "racers". This is a dream of mine, I do have some natural talent, and I feel like I owe it to myself to at least give it a shot. I want to race pro because it is a passion of mine, not to make millions of dollars. If I'm lucky and good enough to make it to WC or ALMS, I don't expect to make a living out of it. I'd like to drive for a race team, but I know that you have to be damn good to get someone to pay for your ride. I would be extremely happy if I could get a spot on a driving team and make very little if anything, and work a regular full time job to pay the bills.

Thanks for the input guys.

I would be extremely happy if I could get a spot on a driving team and make very little if anything, and work a regular full time job to pay the bills.

When you find the full time job that will allow you to take off 10-12 weeks a year for racing (generally you show up on Monday or Tuesday for a World Challenge, ALMS, or Grand-Am weekend), as well as multiple weekdays to travel for testing (too expensive to rent a track for testing on the weekends), let me know.

Let me suggest real estate as one of the few alternatives.

In the end, you'll find that you actually need to BRING $$ to the table to run with most teams in World Challenge. Whether that comes from your own pockets or through sponsorship will be up to you. Getting and keeping sponsors can essentially be a full time job anyways. Sponsors don't call you, you call them, and then you've got to somehow convince them that giving you $50+K is a good idea.

A "cheap" World Challenge Touring ride runs around $10K a race weekend and goes up to $20K...and that often doesn't cover your own personal costs of airfare, hotels, food, driving suit, etc. Essentially, for the price of your M3, you might be able to run one weekend in a podium potential car in World Challenge.

Not trying to discourage, just want to make you aware of the challenges. You may never make it to World Challenge, but you should buy a Spec Miata and go racing anyway. For the similiar costs of running your modified M3 at DE's, you could actually be racing a Miata.

Interestingly enough, I was in a position very similiar to you about 4-5 years ago. Had some DE's under my belt, knew very little about club racing, but knew I wanted to do it. I started with a BMW 325...ran CCA Club racing and maybe one SCCA race before selling it and using the proceeds to rent a Formula Mazda for SCCA regional and national events. Better competition and I didn't have tons of $$ tied up in owning a car.

Eventually bought a Formula Mazda and ran more SCCA National events. I ran a couple Pro events...even qualified on pole for my first televised race at Road Atlanta in Star Mazda. Even that's not enough to really get any attention or to grab some sponsorship.

Since then, I've purchased a good Spec Miata. I run it here in the SE against strong competition and plan to run the Pro races I can get to...in fact, my first race in the car was at the SM Pro at Road Atlanta last year I would love to find myself in World Challenge or Grand-Am in the next couple of years, but it's only going to happen if I can bring some $$ together. Outside of simply being in the right place at the right time, it takes not only skill and desire, but lots of $$ from somewhere.

You'll quickly find that you aren't the only one with a little bit of natural talent and a desire to go Pro racing...I know I did.

Not trying to discourage, just want to make you aware of the challenges. You may never make it to World Challenge, but you should buy a Spec Miata and go racing anyway. For the similiar costs of running your modified M3 at DE's, you could actually be racing a Miata.

You'll quickly find that you aren't the only one with a little bit of natural talent and a desire to go Pro racing...I know I did.

I definitely understand that and that is the reason I've talked myself out of going racing when I considered racing before. I'm going to give this a try for a couple seasons while still aspiring for pro level racing; if it happens great, if it doesn't at least I gave it a shot and I won't regret not pursuing a passion of mine. I'm not an overly-confident person...so if I find out that I'm good, but not great, I'll realize this and be happy getting to participate in a hobby I love. I really do appreciate your brutal honesty in helping me, and others, realize that this is like becoming a movie star. For every successful actor, there are 100 40-year old waiters/waitresses that are still trying to live their dream.

Bry is dishing out some good advice...it's the reality of it man...most of us would love nothing more than to be racing...ALL the time and getting at least some dough for it...however for many of us we have chosen club racing/BMW, NASA, SCCA...because it is a feasible way to feed the bug and even still many of us (like myself :( ) must choose their season to suit budgetary constraints.

One of my personal goals in life is to someday run in a pro series...however I've realized that the cost is immense!!! As such my primary goal is to focus on really thinking about starting my own business venture/technology company and spending time on that, while still taking a few weekends, albeit much less, in a year to do some ameteur racing such as BMW CCA CR or NASA. If I do well with my venture, I would be able to get a seat, and through contacts and marketing have a foot into bringing sponsorship money into/or becoming partially involved within some sort of team ownership situation.

I've realized quickly that racing = money to really do it and do it right!!! Hence I've deduced that if ya wanna go racing, I mean really take a shot at it then:

a) become a phenomonal driver and have money on your side to break into the ranks, get noticed, get a ride and someday take off...

b) have a business involved with racing that can get you closer to the sport...maybe land you a test...perhaps get a sponsorship deal in the works...and be part of a team

c) Start a venture (racing related or not) that becomes sucessful enough to get into a deal to buy a team or a part of a team, or start your own program...or leverage that wealth into becoming involved with an existing team or getting closer to the sport...bring value to the table, that's the bottom line...and don't forget to bring cash and/or sponsors

Sunir, when you become rich, wanna sponsor me to run in the Honda Challenge?? :help

:D

Sunir, when you become rich, wanna sponsor me to run in the Honda Challenge?? :help

:D

typical Mid atl region response ;) :rolleyes ...I was trying to give some honest real world advice and a MA forum guy has to put up a wise arse post... ;) :stickoutt

...and no I wouldn't sponsor yo azzz, since Jeddy won the '04 DE championship his people have already contacted mine :eek:...jus 'cause you put a pass on jterp at Summit with your honduh you think you gotz mad skillZzZz eh? lol :D :)

Lots of great advice here. I'll add my own $0.02.

If you want to race pro, you're wasting your time and money doing any more club racing than you need to get a pro license. Period. Pros don't care about amateur racers. We're a dime a hundred.

My advice is totally quit thinking about pro racing. If the opportunity comes along (almost certainly through getting the cash somewhere), you'll know at the time. The pros won't even care how good you are in most cases. If you have the cash you can get a seat somewhere (unless you have a reputation for balling up race cars).

You want to race and that is reason enough. That's why we all do it. Do it for fun and don't look back.

As for Spec Pinata, $20k is not going to get you a championship capable car unless you're Randy Pobst or something. If you're lucky, with a $20k car you'll be just ahead of mid-pack, but you'll have to be really good too. People talk about spec racing like it's cheap, but if it's highly competitive like Spec Pinata, you end up spending big $$$$ chasing tiny gains, and you have to go after ALL of those tiny gains to get to the front. Don't think Spec means equal. It doesn't. If you want to race Spec Pinata, there are good reasons to, but cheap racing ain't one of them. You can race mid-pack elsewhere for much less.

Lots of great advice here. I'll add my own $0.02.

If you want to race pro, you're wasting your time and money doing any more club racing than you need to get a pro license. Period. Pros don't care about amateur racers. We're a dime a hundred.

My advice is totally quit thinking about pro racing. If the opportunity comes along (almost certainly through getting the cash somewhere), you'll know at the time. The pros won't even care how good you are in most cases. If you have the cash you can get a seat somewhere (unless you have a reputation for balling up race cars).

You want to race and that is reason enough. That's why we all do it. Do it for fun and don't look back.

As for Spec Pinata, $20k is not going to get you a championship capable car unless you're Randy Pobst or something. If you're lucky, with a $20k car you'll be just ahead of mid-pack, but you'll have to be really good too. People talk about spec racing like it's cheap, but if it's highly competitive like Spec Pinata, you end up spending big $$$$ chasing tiny gains, and you have to go after ALL of those tiny gains to get to the front. Don't think Spec means equal. It doesn't. If you want to race Spec Pinata, there are good reasons to, but cheap racing ain't one of them. You can race mid-pack elsewhere for much less.

Thanks for the advice. The more I think, research, and shop about this I'm thinking I'll either slowly build a car or by an underprepared car that I can slowly modify to become competitive. I'd like to start racing sooner than later and if I start doing few races with a lesser prepared car, at least I'll be getting the experience. What other somewhat economical options/classes/cars would you suggest?

I do think I'll try to adjust my goals for this hobby. I don't want to constantly frustrate myself trying to shoot for a higher level. Instead, I'll dedicate as much time and focus as I can to racing and if the opportunity to race pro becomes available, I'll take it. If/when I have the money to do it myself...I'll do it.

my two cents (that dont really apply)

you have to have big $ to play with the big boys. and only then do you get noticed. i used to race RC cars professionally. you have to put a hurt on the factory guys to get any kind of sponsorship. id imagine its the same with any type of club/etc racing..

good luck bro. wed all like to be doing the same sh*t



:buttrock

my two cents (that dont really apply)

you have to have big $ to play with the big boys. and only then do you get noticed. i used to race RC cars professionally. you have to put a hurt on the factory guys to get any kind of sponsorship. id imagine its the same with any type of club/etc racing..

good luck bro. wed all like to be doing the same sh*t



:buttrock


just curious, what's RC? Rally or something?

RC: Radio/Remote Control

I didn't know there was such thing as pro Remote Control racing...with factory teams. I must be sheltered... ;) :confused

as funny as it sounds, its true.. :D

as funny as it sounds, its true.. :D

Yup I used to race RC cars in England. I was no pro though.

Yup I used to race RC cars in England. I was no pro though.

so this is why your so fast in a race car eh ;) :D ...

RC cars can be pretty cool, those things have quite a bit of tuning and setup involved, you'd be surprised (I know I was when a friend I hadn't seen in years schooled me on his 3 - car deep RC race team...he had TONS of spares and parts for each condition...it's like a real pro team on a smaller physical scale)...and when they race these cars they go for broke, lots of rubbing, bumping and smacking out there on the track.

so this is why your so fast in a race car eh ;)

You have to do something before you get your license, I couldn't afford a go kart or anything like that, it is actually a really great way to start. You build the car, then you modify the car, different motors, change gear ratios, suspension setups it is great fun. Plus you need good hand eye to actually drive the damn thing. I highly recommend it.