Is anybody running a 4 or 3 point harness with the stock vader seats? I was looking at the sparco harness bar to mount it. I am paralized and plan on still driving aggresively and I have limited use of my stomach muscles to help me stay upright. Any pics would be great.

I have seen plenty of guys use 6 points w/ the stock vaders. I don't know why it wouldn't work with 3 or 4. I would use 6 if you can. I would imagine it would help keep your legs in place as well.

OK, I'll save my usual 'harnesses without a roll bar is bad' speech.

But if you want to be more stable in your seat, you need a better seat. Harnesses (3,4,5 or 6-point) are 'restraints' - in fact most of the world calls them restraints. They are there to limit the movement of your body in crashes, not spirited drivig. The possible exception would be heavy braking, but this isn't why most folks fit them.

The Vader sets work for some folks (I find them OK, but I'm 240lbs and just over 6ft tall, slightly more torso than leg), and don't work for some.
But anything made by Sparco, OMP, Momo and most Recaros will give better 'feel' and support.

Well, one should NEVER run 5 and 6 point harnesses with stock vaders, as someone suggested, but 4 pt works great. Without a bar/cage to use as mounting point, the next best solution is from Schroth, who make a special 4pt belt that uses the stock rear seat mounting points (+1). I've used them for the last 2 seasons and it makes a major difference in keeping you stable in stock vaders. The only place I know to get them is HMS http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/store.php?method=cat&m=12&sub=1337&thisPage=1#1327

Highly recommended.

Oh, and if you call them, tell them Max sent ya! :D

^^^^^i've got the Schroth Rallye 4 point belts. they really hold you into the seat well. I needed them to hold me in my vaders a lot tighter and they seem to do that really well. they're also nice because you don't have to modify anything and can take them out when you aren't at the track.

Man what a great help guys. Do you have any pics? Do the shoulder straps just go over the head rest on each side? We are talking about the 4point belts also right? Is that bolt for the e36 that it says helps really needed?Thanks. Nice avatar timsev and nice car, always good to see another estoril M3. Remember I was helping you with the NOS kit.

Just ordered my Schroth Rallye 4 for racing duties!! I'm excited that I won't have to use my knee to keep me in the seat anymore.

Just ordered my Schroth Rallye 4 for racing duties!! I'm excited that I won't have to use my knee to keep me in the seat anymore.LOL! I have to literally put a pad on my console because I'm jamming my right knee into it for stability at DEs.

I just saw that they make the ralleye 4 in a quick fit design. This allows you to hook them into the exisiting seatbelt female ends. You can totally remove the belt in less than 1 min. It also tightenes the belt up if the airbag goes off. Killer I am gonna order one tomorrow.

Man what a great help guys. Do you have any pics? Do the shoulder straps just go over the head rest on each side? We are talking about the 4point belts also right? Is that bolt for the e36 that it says helps really needed?Thanks. Nice avatar timsev and nice car, always good to see another estoril M3. Remember I was helping you with the NOS kit.
thanks man. yeah, i have the quick fit system. i love it, perfect for DE's. I'm 6'2'', 190 and it holds me in there nice and tight. you do have to adjust quite a bit to get a nice feel, but once you get it, you aren't going anywhere.

To answer your ?, it is a 4 point system. the belts fit perfectly under the vader headrest and clip into the existing buckles except for one on each side. there is a latch that you bolt on but it doesn't require any modification. i don't really know what bolt you are talking about. i just ordered each belt and everything came with it. i think i got mine at HMS.

Thanks for the help with the N2O by the way, I finally got everything working great.

Yeah i just found the quick release ones. The bolt is needed for the permanent installation ones.So all vaders have removable headrests? I did not know that. I was worried it wouldn't work.

I wouldn't run a harness unless I had a cage or proper seat to attach it too. Thats a LOT of force on the harness when you hit. I rolled my brothers Jeep and the harnesses kept me off of the six point cage. If the harnesses were run to the stock seat (he has better seats though) it probably would have fallen apart.

I am not racing the car I only want to be held in better than the stock belts. They ralleye 4 are dot approved so they must meet oem standrads or better for crash protection. It is just that I have no stmach muscles to keep myself upright very well. The quick Ralleye 4's will work perfect.

I am not racing the car I only want to be held in better than the stock belts. They ralleye 4 are dot approved so they must meet oem standrads or better for crash protection. It is just that I have no stmach muscles to keep myself upright very well. The quick Ralleye 4's will work perfect.

I, too have been running the Schroth harnesses the last 2 years. I really like them, if for no other reason than the fact that my right knee is no longer sore from propping myself against the center console after a track day!

Just curious - you mention that you're paralyzed. Is your car equipped with hand controls?

Just curious - you mention that you're paralyzed. Is your car equipped with hand controls?
I am having it fitted for them at the end of the month.

I am having it fitted for them at the end of the month.

Wow, interesting. You should share pics of it when it's done. I assume it's an automatic sedan, then? Could you track it with the hand controls?

what kind of hand controls are you talking about? Do they operate the throttle and brakes? That would be kind of interesting to see how it's all done. Good luck your car and hope you like the new belts!

I wouldn't run a harness unless I had a cage or proper seat to attach it too. ... If the harnesses were run to the stock seat (he has better seats though) it probably would have fallen apart.E36 3 and 4 point harnesses are not attached to the seat, they run to belt attachment points on the frame. 5 and 6 point belts do run to the seat, and I agree, you should NEVER use a stock seat for these.

Wow, interesting. You should share pics of it when it's done. I assume it's an automatic sedan, then? Could you track it with the hand controls?

there was a dude at nationals who had an e46 5 speed with wheelchair controls. pretty dope.

E36 3 and 4 point harnesses are not attached to the seat, they run to belt attachment points on the frame. 5 and 6 point belts do run to the seat, and I agree, you should NEVER use a stock seat for these.

His is attached to the cage. I still wouldn't trust a stock seat to stay still in an accident. If the seat broke and fell back, you'd flop around in the harness.

Wow, interesting. You should share pics of it when it's done. I assume it's an automatic sedan, then? Could you track it with the hand controls?
Nope it's a 5 speed. There will be a lever on the gear shift knob that controls the clutch. It acts the same as it did before, you can still burn out and slip the clutch. It is the almost the same setup that Alex Zanaradi has on his scca car. There is a ring that is slightly smaller than the steering wheel, it goes behind it. You pull this for the gas. There is a bar that connects to the brake pedal, you push it and it pushes the stock pedal. I plan on tracking the car alittle bit. I will post pics as soon as I get it all put in

His is attached to the cage. I still wouldn't trust a stock seat to stay still in an accident. If the seat broke and fell back, you'd flop around in the harness.If the seat broke you'd flop around in a stock belt too, so I don't see your point. Race seats are nice, cages are great for track cars, but I still think there is a safety advantage in using 3 or 4 point harnesses in a stock car.

Percentage-wise, there are more non-rollover crashes on a track, where harnesses should be much better than stock belts. And for those of you who believe that the stock belts are better in a rollover, I think you have to be lucky enough to be in the right position to "fall out" of the seatbelt so the roof doesn't smack your head. If the force of the crash slams you against the side of the car which props you upright as the roof comes down, I think you are just as dead in a stock belt as a harness.

M3 Pete,

My concern is that any harness wrapped to a seat will put the force on the seat in a crash. Not something I would try with a stock seat. Also, a stock seat with a harness seems wrong, but after thinking about it, I think it would hold up just fine.

I just would NOT want to be flopping around in a car strapped to a seat that has broken loose of its mounts.

When I rolled the Jeep, the five points kept me still. I didn't move at all. When we came to rest on the drivers side, I was held (quite comfortably) in my seat. My head did not go near the cage at all. With stock belts I probably would have hit my head, although the belts that spool out of the seat or attach securely near the shoulder would prevent this.

I would prefer a harness in a side impact also--more lateral grip.

In summation (since I've been awake for a long, long time and I'm not sure I'm making much sense), I think that no harness should be used that doesn't mount securely to something very strong--a good seat, a cage, the B pillar etc. Otherwise I'm not confident that the seat wouldn't break and flop around inside the vehicle with me attached to it.

Of course, BMW seats are built strongly....so don't take my word for it, I'm just a little paranoid. Better safe than sorry, I say.

BTW, if you didn't know, Carol Hollfelder (http://www.tiger-racing.com/) races in Speed World Challenge GT with hand controls.

Ford has a driver who test drives with hand controls. They are working on an SMG/Electrohydraulic T56 with his help.

Alex Zanardi IIRC was the F1 driver who lost his legs and now drives for BMW in Touring Car races.

Damn, I gotta get some sleep.

BTW, if you didn't know, Carol Hollfelder (http://www.tiger-racing.com/) races in Speed World Challenge GT with hand controls. My setup is similiar to hers except for the braking and the electrically controlled transmission. Man I can't wait.

M3 Pete,

My concern is that any harness wrapped to a seat will put the force on the seat in a crash. Not something I would try with a stock seat. Also, a stock seat with a harness seems wrong, but after thinking about it, I think it would hold up just fine.

I just would NOT want to be flopping around in a car strapped to a seat that has broken loose of its mounts.

When I rolled the Jeep, the five points kept me still. I didn't move at all. When we came to rest on the drivers side, I was held (quite comfortably) in my seat. My head did not go near the cage at all. With stock belts I probably would have hit my head, although the belts that spool out of the seat or attach securely near the shoulder would prevent this.

I would prefer a harness in a side impact also--more lateral grip.

In summation (since I've been awake for a long, long time and I'm not sure I'm making much sense), I think that no harness should be used that doesn't mount securely to something very strong--a good seat, a cage, the B pillar etc. Otherwise I'm not confident that the seat wouldn't break and flop around inside the vehicle with me attached to it.

Of course, BMW seats are built strongly....so don't take my word for it, I'm just a little paranoid. Better safe than sorry, I say.I think we agree, as I said before, the stock belts (and harnesses) are attached to the car chassis, not the stock seat. If set up correctly (using proper attachment points), the harnesses should not put much strain on the seat. If the seat breaks, neither the stock belts nor the harness are going to help much, you won't be attached to it, you'll be sliding out of it.

Better seats and safety cages do improve your chances, but I think that if you don't have those, harnesses are still an improvement over stock belts.

my buddy has a similar setup in his mini, he modified a motorcycle shift lever and attached it to the shift rod.

Wow, sorry for bringing this thread back from the dead, but I've been looking into putting some 6-pt restraints on my stock vaders, but after doing a search and reading this thread it seems like a bad idea. I am interested in the conversation between M3 Pete and Heckler&Koch. I understand that having a restraint that bolts to a stock seat is a bad idea because of the idea that if the mounts did fail then you would be strapped to a seat that is being thrown around the car, but I am also planning on installing a bolt-in rollbar. I really don't have any experience with seat harness installation so I'm pretty blind as to how and where they mount, but do all 6-pts mount to the seat? I guess my main question is: Can I mount a 6-pt restraint to my stock vader seat with a bolt-in 4-pt rollbar? Again thanks for any advise.

Wow, sorry for bringing this thread back from the dead, but I've been looking into putting some 6-pt restraints on my stock vaders, but after doing a search and reading this thread it seems like a bad idea. I am interested in the conversation between M3 Pete and Heckler&Koch. I understand that having a restraint that bolts to a stock seat is a bad idea because of the idea that if the mounts did fail then you would be strapped to a seat that is being thrown around the car, but I am also planning on installing a bolt-in rollbar. I really don't have any experience with seat harness installation so I'm pretty blind as to how and where they mount, but do all 6-pts mount to the seat? I guess my main question is: Can I mount a 6-pt restraint to my stock vader seat with a bolt-in 4-pt rollbar? Again thanks for any advise.funny, I came across this thread looking for something else, but I have to correct what I said before. In an E36 sedan (not coupe), both of the lap portions of the stock seat belts are actually attached to the seat. The coupe has at least the outboard lap belt attached to the floor. My apologies for the error.

To answer your question, a well-designed 6-point harness install is going have the sub belts attached to the floor, the lap belts attached to the floor, and the shoulder belts attached to the harness bar portion of the roll bar that is designed for them.

Shroth's 4pt quick harness's work well for track days.

Heres mine

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/148/359918346_f52054e153.jpg

I just saw that they make the ralleye 4 in a quick fit design. This allows you to hook them into the exisiting seatbelt female ends. You can totally remove the belt in less than 1 min. It also tightenes the belt up if the airbag goes off. Killer I am gonna order one tomorrow.

You will still need a better fitting cloth covered seat if you are small to medium framed.
I'm 6.0 175Lb and still lack lateral support with the quickfit/vader combo.

m

heres a few of my car

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b79/seasonsz24/Picture036.jpg

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b79/seasonsz24/Picture059.jpg

heres a few of my car
That's really not safe, nothing is keeping you from submarining, and also nothing is guiding the shoulder belts.

just installed my Schroth Rallye 4 point harness yesterday. I really like it and +1 for being DOT approved. ;)

That's really not safe, nothing is keeping you from submarining, and also nothing is guiding the shoulder belts.
yeah, at a minimum, the shoulder belts need to be routed between the headrest posts. Those Simpson belts appear to be on the outside of the posts.