Guys, I see the new 330i with the 255hp/221 tq and I can't decide whether I really really want it, or If I dont because other cars in the class MIGHT be faster, straight up

Lets estimate that the new 330i w/ 6 speed does 0-60 in 5.6, 1/4 mile in 14.2.

Infiniti G35 6MT: 300hp/260 tq....Car and Driver got the 260hp one to do 5.7, 14.2! The new one might pull a high 13's 1/4 mile, for LESS money.

Merc. Benz C350: 258 hp/268tq. Strong numbers. 7 speed auto should make it as quick as the 6MT.

Acura TL 6MT: 270 hp/238 tq. People are pulling around 14.3 in this car, still close to the new 330i for about 6K less money.

New Audi A4 3.2: Direct Injection 255 hp/252 tq. If they keep the weight down, this should run low 14s as well.

New Lexus IS: Supposedly will get a 300 hp I6! Thats an 85 hp boost, easily be a low 14s car which the manual tranny


All im saying is that I think BMW needs to do better than 255 hp, even if the 255 hp is underrated a little bit. If anything, it needs more torque. I think BMW really could have made a 300 horse 3.2L 6 and made everyone really happy.

Thoughts anyone?

All im saying is that I think BMW needs to do better than 255 hp, even if the 255 hp is underrated a little bit. If anything, it needs more torque. I think BMW really could have made a 300 horse 3.2L 6 and made everyone really happy.

Thoughts anyone?

They did make a 300+hp 3.2L I6, it's in the E46 M3.

They did make a 300+hp 3.2L I6, it's in the E46 M3.

yes, i know that. But im talking about a more mainstrean, 300 hp 3.2L motor (assuming they cant/wont bore out the current 3.0L for 300 hp) that would make the new 330i easily the fastest car in the class.

if you are only looking at hp, bmw is not for you :rolleyes

I agree with ny330i. If bmw can make such great cars why not increase the hp/torque numbers.
I have driven the 330i and do not find it lacking in power but....I have always been amazed that they sell so many 5 series for 50-60k with a 6 cyl. engine that produces @200 hp. :confused

Has the 3 series ever been the fastest in its class?

Yes, it basically has been. When the E36 328i was released as well as the E46 330i, nothing in the "sport sedan under 35-40K" class was faster.

And Xuon, im looking at both hp and torque figures because, well just look at them, they are around the lowest in the class. Can't deny that. I realize most people dont drive a BMW for its hp/tq rating but wouldn't you like to be pround and be able to say, I have the fastest car in the class, AND its a BMW!

are you sure on the g35 time? the fastest ive ever seen for those is about 6.1, even the coupe i havent seen really hit the 5's in the magazines. Also, car and driver just did a small test on the aniversary ed of the 350z w/ 300hp and it did 0-60 in 5.8. As for the audi, i saw a time somewhere saying about 6.5 for the auto, and the manual doesnt even come out to fall at the earliest so who knows on that.

However, when it comes to bmws, you shouldnt be looking at the hp/tq numbers, they somehow always make cars quicker than the hp numbers would show...Hell the e36 m3 has had magazines rate the 0-60 as low as 5.2 Thats with older technology, a 5 speed, im asuming lower gearing (only 3.15 in the 95) and 240hp. Even the 325i pulls surprising numbers. for what 180hp (or whatever it is), it does the run in 6.7(fastest ive seen) which holds steady with all the current competition w/ the 3.0+L engines except for the g35. ALso a 530i at 6.8 will destroy a new A6 3.2 at 7.4. It just seems to be how these things work. Yes there are better looking power numbers out there, but that doesnt always mean faster, even if weight is similar.

They did make a 300+hp 3.2L I6, it's in the E46 M3.
And the E36 S50B32, 321hp.

are you sure on the g35 time? the fastest ive ever seen for those is about 6.1, even the coupe i havent seen really hit the 5's in the magazines. Also, car and driver just did a small test on the aniversary ed of the 350z w/ 300hp and it did 0-60 in 5.8. As for the audi, i saw a time somewhere saying about 6.5 for the auto, and the manual doesnt even come out to fall at the earliest so who knows on that.

However, when it comes to bmws, you shouldnt be looking at the hp/tq numbers, they somehow always make cars quicker than the hp numbers would show...Hell the e36 m3 has had magazines rate the 0-60 as low as 5.2 Thats with older technology, a 5 speed, im asuming lower gearing (only 3.15 in the 95) and 240hp. Even the 325i pulls surprising numbers. for what 180hp (or whatever it is), it does the run in 6.7(fastest ive seen) which holds steady with all the current competition w/ the 3.0+L engines except for the g35. ALso a 530i at 6.8 will destroy a new A6 3.2 at 7.4. It just seems to be how these things work. Yes there are better looking power numbers out there, but that doesnt always mean faster, even if weight is similar.


You're comparing Auto's to manuals and manuals to autos...cant do that. All of those cars, in automatic, would probably beat a new 255 hp 330i w/ auto.

With manual tranny, itll probably be closer, but still you cant deny that, at least on paper, all of those cars have more power.

I think that you make a pretty good point. For how expensive new BMW's are I believe they should start pushing a little more power. Now I know thats not all that matters in a car but when they are being outdone by other companies in many aspects (speed, cost, looks!) things must be done.

Exactly the point I am trying to make. Horsepower and torque of course arent the only reasons you buy a BMW, but how can you have an Ultimate Driving Machine that has the least power in the class? 250 hp is the starting point for the 30-40K Sport Sedan class. I expected at least 275 hp out of the new I6. Of course, Im sure the 255 hp 330i will be a great all around performer, but for the first time in awhile, I dont think people will be commenting on how the 330i outpowers all of its competitors 0-60 and 1/4 mile.

Even some entry luxury cars are eclipsing the 255 hp 330i. The new Maxima, Galant, and Altima can all be had with 260 or 265 hp, for around 28k. My friend has a new 2004 maxima w/ automatic, and that thing is quick.

Wheel horsepower is more important than engine power. If you figure most cars loose ~15% of their rated HP as it travels through the drivetrain, the E90's will be in a much more competetive position because of the electric water pump, etc. Because the new accessories are not run by the engine, I have heard that BMW claims that the parasitic drivetrain loss is less than 10% of the rated HP. This should put BMW much closer to its competators as far as wheel HP and performance.

Even some entry luxury cars are eclipsing the 255 hp 330i. The new Maxima, Galant, and Altima can all be had with 260 or 265 hp, for around 28k. My friend has a new 2004 maxima w/ automatic, and that thing is quick


Exactly, they make minivans with 240hp (don't ask me how I know). :(

You're comparing Auto's to manuals and manuals to autos...cant do that. All of those cars, in automatic, would probably beat a new 255 hp 330i w/ auto.

With manual tranny, itll probably be closer, but still you cant deny that, at least on paper, all of those cars have more power.

Oh im definitly not denying that they have less power, that they do and its definitly a tougher market than it used to be, all im saying is that while they do, they still are much faster than what the power states, and even faster than competitors. As for the cars i compared, your right like the A6 was an auto, and the A4 time is for an auto, but the g35s are manuals. All in all, im thinking itll be the fastest in its class, although im still awaiting more times to show up (to show consistancy at some time) but im thinking it still gonna come out on top. Will be interesting to see that IS though with 300hp, i know with the current engine, the acceleration times arent all that impressive , so itll need that boost definitly.

I think that should not be worried so much ... other car manufacturers will always be inferior to BMW. if BMW cares so much about power competition, they can easily bring up the HP ... how many of you have seen a race where a more powerful car lost to M3? or regular 3 series?

And you know what else is scary...BMW models usually stay around for 5-6 years. So lets assume that the 2006 330i will be in its last model year around 2011. You think 255 hp is going to cut it in 5 years? in 3 years? Just look at the current 225 hp 330i. When it first came out, it trumped or equaled everything in the class power/tq wise (Lexus IS-215 hp, A4-220, CTS-220, Jag Xtype- 227). But in only 2 model years, by 2003, other cars were trumping its power rating. Then Acura had the TL-S w/ 260 hp (automatic only) and the manual 330i was only a little faster than it. Then the new 255 hp CTS? Then came the 240 horsepower Accord Coupe 6MT that runs a 14.5 for 26k? Then the 260 hp G35 sedan and 280 hp G35 coupe, for around 32k? By the E46's 330i's 3rd or 4th model year, it was in trouble in the power game. And now, the new 2006 330i isnt even in its 1st model year and it already has the least power and torque in the class. In 2-3 years, competitors that havent made a new model as of yet are easily going to trump it. BMW is going to have to up the ante. A 3.2 or 3.5 L engine w/ around 300 hp is needed. Fast.

I think that should not be worried so much ... other car manufacturers will always be inferior to BMW. if BMW cares so much about power competition, they can easily bring up the HP ... how many of you have seen a race where a more powerful car lost to M3? or regular 3 series?

My buddys 04 Maxima (auto) RAPES my auto 330xi everywhere in the powerband, minus the launch (AWD duh!).

Any auto G35 would easily beat an auto 330i and give a manual 330 a run for its money. The newer 280 hp auto G35's probably would beat a well driven manual 330. Only the ZHP could given a manual G35 a run for its money.

An auto TL would also easily beat an auto 330i, and the 6MT TL would also give a manual 330i a hard time, though the 330i does have an advantage at launch.

the new 300 horse IS300? And just think of what other 30-40k sport sedans other manufacturers are going to come out with in the next few years? I guarentee all of them have 250+ hp/250+ tq.

True, its not all about numbers. But these numbers dont lie. And kinda make me scared. I dont wanna buy a 2006 330i and get smoked by some punk that thinks his G35 is better just because its faser. The Ultimate Driving Machine should be the faster and best performer. And I just dont think the new 330i will be the fastest most of the time, minus excellent driver.

When the E46 debuted for MY1999, it had a 30 hp deficit to the Acura TL. The Cadillac Catera had 7 hp more (I think they're in the same class). The Lexus ES had a 17 hp advantage. The A4 was about equal with the 3-series (190hp/206tq) as was the C-Class (194hp/195tq). The 3-series debut with a disadvantage in 1998 just it is doing in 2005...on paper, that is.

All im saying is that I think BMW needs to do better than 255 hp, even if the 255 hp is underrated a little bit. If anything, it needs more torque. I think BMW really could have made a 300 horse 3.2L 6 and made everyone really happy.

Thoughts anyone?

Quote from Helmut Panke in the April 2005 MT
"We recognize that others are outperforming us, but we will not settle (for that). We will do something to improve the performance of our vehicles, but we will not sacrifice agility. You have to be in control of the car in all situations, not just leave some rubber marks on the road and your friend at the traffic light."

My thought is that they know they needed more power but can't really put a 300hp engine in the new 3 until they stop selling the E46 M3 with just 333hp. In a 1-1 1/2 years you'll see an E90 with 300 or better. For now it is all just a marketing issue.

Frued, all those cars you listed did have more or equal hp and torque, but they did not have the chassis and transmissions to back it up, the so 328 was always the fastest. Today, the BMW competitors all have powerful engines and great chassis', with transmissions that are made for the absolute best performance. And also, most of them can be had with a manual, something that the C class, TL and Lexus ES never offered.

Toad, I hope you are corrent about BMW coming out with a near 300 hp engine for the 3 in the next few years. But I dont think it should have anything to do with the outgoing M3, because when the last 225hp 330i came out, they were toting it as "near e36 M3 performance on all levels". Is the 255 hp 2006 330i nearly as good as the outgoing M3? Nope.

You all make valid points on HP and cars in the class. I will say that is the one thing that I never understood about BMW. With so many competitors edging in on its sales and performance you'd think BMW would up the anty. I strongly believe that the new E90 should be atleast in the 280HP range. I know that BMW's always perform better than their numbers would suggest, but HP does sell. Thats the reason why I got my 2004 Dodge 1500 with the HEMI. 345HP stock does wonders for the soul. But to the point I am going to weigh out the E90 and see what it is and isnt before plunking down a nickel. I just may hold out for the new M3. :cool

Yea im sure the new 400 hp M3 will be an amazing performer. But the new Audi RS4 will have 420 hp, the CTS-V around has 400. Im sure MB also will up the ante with a 400+ HP C55 AMG, they never fail to beat any competitors power.

BMW just seems to be falling behind, in the pure numbers game, at least.

well bmw has always done more with less and i heard that now the cars although bigger are lighter becouse of the new suspension materials and stuff

And you know what else is scary...BMW models usually stay around for 5-6 years. So lets assume that the 2006 330i will be in its last model year around 2011. You think 255 hp is going to cut it in 5 years? in 3 years? Just look at the current 225 hp 330i. When it first came out, it trumped or equaled everything in the class power/tq wise (Lexus IS-215 hp, A4-220, CTS-220, Jag Xtype- 227). But in only 2 model years, by 2003, other cars were trumping its power rating. Then Acura had the TL-S w/ 260 hp (automatic only) and the manual 330i was only a little faster than it. Then the new 255 hp CTS? Then came the 240 horsepower Accord Coupe 6MT that runs a 14.5 for 26k? Then the 260 hp G35 sedan and 280 hp G35 coupe, for around 32k? By the E46's 330i's 3rd or 4th model year, it was in trouble in the power game. And now, the new 2006 330i isnt even in its 1st model year and it already has the least power and torque in the class. In 2-3 years, competitors that havent made a new model as of yet are easily going to trump it. BMW is going to have to up the ante. A 3.2 or 3.5 L engine w/ around 300 hp is needed. Fast.

I ain't a mag racer but I want to say Motor Trend got a 0-60 run of 5.6 in a 330x. And it bewilidered everyone how that happened.

The lil hp war is now hitting these cars.

well bmw has always done more with less and i heard that now the cars although bigger are lighter becouse of the new suspension materials and stuff

Unfortunately the E90 is not lighter. Lighter for it's size maybe, but not lighter.

Weights from BMW USA web site:
E21 2435lb
E30 2815lb
E36 3120lb
E46 3285lb
E90 3417lb

The power to weight ratio is getting better so they keep getting quicker in a straight line anyway.

All im saying is that I think BMW needs to do better than 255 hp, even if the 255 hp is underrated a little bit. If anything, it needs more torque. I think BMW really could have made a 300 horse 3.2L 6 and made everyone really happy.

Thoughts anyone?

Why do you care about the numbers? BMW is not the value leader. It does not give you the most bang for the buck objectively speaking, and never will.

The only way a BMW is the right choice for you or anyone, IMHO, is if they want it for something more than its 0-60 time or hp rating. It is because the BMW gives them something beyond the objective, something visceral. You have to be the kind of person who enjoys the drive.

The spirit of BMW is more Italian than the other german marques. Benz is more serious and Audi still a bit more quirky on the whole, although I speak perhaps of a BMW of years past, peaking in the 80s and 90s.

The raw #s are not the answer to the question you ask.

And this is coming from someone who daily drives a 2004 6spd/Navi TL and chose that over all e46 models, as a daily driver. I didn't want an M3 in the winter. I like the E46 330, but the E46 I want is a 330xi wagon so I am SOL.

The new 530xi wagon looks interesting. I am trying to hold out for a C4S next summer/fall.

BTW, for those lamenting the lack of BMW horsepower, you may not be aware that those in the know (Roundel and others) have been reporting for some time that BMW is going to go with forced induction, turbocharging, to bridge the gap between the top of the normal range and the M models. It is quite possible they will supplement the range with a 3.0 FI engine with approx. 340-50 hp. They may also be bringing diesels that have more torque at low rpm than an E39 M5 at peak if the US can get the consumer diesel market up and running again.

They got the 330xi at 5.8 0-60 and 14.4 1/4 mile...only because of the AWD launch. Probably dropped the clutch at 6000 RPM and bam...quick times. In the real world its not that fast, trust me.

yes, i know that. But im talking about a more mainstrean, 300 hp 3.2L motor (assuming they cant/wont bore out the current 3.0L for 300 hp) that would make the new 330i easily the fastest car in the class.

The E46 M3 is about as mainstream as it gets. I see more E46 M3s in my hood than E46 323Cis. Everyone and their mom has one.

You want the "fastest car in its class" then just pony up and get the M3 or the M2 when it comes out. BMW has never really made their none "M" competitive in terms of speed. When the E36 328i/is was out, it was the fastest in its class simply because, well, there are NO other competitors...But if you want to go by raw specs, when the E36 328i was out there are a handful of cars that was significantly faster for much less, like the 300Zx or the Supra or the Mazda RX-7 (no, they're not sport "sedans", like I said, there were no competitors when the E30 and E36 were out).

Unfortunately the E90 is not lighter. Lighter for it's size maybe, but not lighter.

Weights from BMW USA web site:
E21 2435lb
E30 2815lb
E36 3120lb
E46 3285lb
E90 3417lb

The power to weight ratio is getting better so they keep getting quicker in a straight line anyway.

I believe that number you quoted for the E90 is NOT the U.S. unladen weight. The only number released so far, is European curb weight, which includes a full tank of gas and about 100kg of passenger/driver/luggage combo. Euro curb weight is usually ~300lbs more than U.S. curb weight, which you quoted for the E46.

That's the E46 curb weight as listed on bmwusa.com

And that's the E90 curb weight as listed int his US E90 Ordering guide.

I can't check on the others, but I'd guess that they're correct as well.

the E90 weighs 3417 lbs...

Just got the new Car and Driver, where they test the 2006 330i. They loved it, said it was better than the E46 in almost every respect.

BUT, 0-60 was 5.6, 1/4 mile 14.3. The same numbers they got for the 330i Performance Package. Sad to say, its not going to be the fastest in the class.

Automobile Mag also tested a 330i, automatic. They got 6.1, 14.8. Once again, not the fastest w/ auto G35s runnin 14.6. Ouch.

BUT, 0-60 was 5.6, 1/4 mile 14.3. The same numbers they got for the 330i Performance Package. Sad to say, its not going to be the fastest in the class.

It also says "these figures were recorded on a surface with poor grip"

I believe that number you quoted for the E90 is NOT the U.S. unladen weight. The only number released so far, is European curb weight, which includes a full tank of gas and about 100kg of passenger/driver/luggage combo. Euro curb weight is usually ~300lbs more than U.S. curb weight, which you quoted for the E46.

I did not even consider questioning information posted by BMW NA. Why would they post Euro weight for the E90 and US weight for the E46 on the same page? That makes their car look worse, and it is a marketing tool.

perhaps this horsepower explosion of recent past is a trend that bmw beginning to end. it cannot go on forever. there is a possibility of an oil crisis, and the supply of oil in the world is not a bottomless pit. just a thought.

And the E36 S50B32, 321hp.
and the E34 S38B36 and S38B38 ;)

Don't forget that high PEAK numbers don't mean squat when you take the area under the curve. That is the true measure of acceleration - weight, area under torque curve, and gearing. My 95 M3 (intake, muffler, HFM, chip) spanked a new G35 coupe 6MT from a standstill, and we both had great launches.

And as concerned as you and others are about raw numbers (magazine racing / numbers shopping), the BMW 3 still outperforms all others where the rubber meets the road, doesn't it? I'm not saying that the newer competitors can't knock the 3er off its pedestal, but I just don't see it happening simply because car XYZ has 12% more power on paper.

Don't forget that high PEAK numbers don't mean squat when you take the area under the curve. That is the true measure of acceleration - weight, area under torque curve, and gearing. My 95 M3 (intake, muffler, HFM, chip) spanked a new G35 coupe 6MT from a standstill, and we both had great launches.

And as concerned as you and others are about raw numbers (magazine racing / numbers shopping), the BMW 3 still outperforms all others where the rubber meets the road, doesn't it? I'm not saying that the newer competitors can't knock the 3er off its pedestal, but I just don't see it happening simply because car XYZ has 12% more power on paper.

Plus, it not about how much HP you have, or how fast you can go from 0-60 or do the 1/4 mile in, it's about how fast you can lap the 'Ring.

These posts are so "blah" to me. Mag. racing sucks, everyone knows that. There are always too many variables to compare in magazines. Weather, roads, TIRES, temperature, driver, random over or under performing car. I could go on but I won't. If everyone is so worried about a four door car with a lot of speed for cheap then go ahead and buy a Dodge SRT-4. It will demolish basically everything put in its way for $20k and some change for upgrades. Last time I checked the 3 series wasn't known for monster power figures, instead it was known for a smooth inline six motor, excellent weight distribution, clean and crisp interior, and one of the best drive-me-anywhere suspension a consumer could buy for $30k-ish.

Also most people that buy BMWs do it because of the class, quality, safety and prestige of the brand. Not the numbers that Mr. MOTOR TREND, Mr. CAR & DRIVER etc. publish. So with class, quality, safety and prestige over Acura, Lexus, Infiniti etc.. price becomes a very small part of the decision. :)

Class quaity safety prestige but you forget reliability and in recent years those other brands have caught on (and even surpassed) fast - the new competition is defenitely hitting BMW now (not to mention the looks are getting worse it seems..)

Like people have said, when the E36 came out, there was no real competition - now these cars have loads of competition and it is falling behind

My buddys 04 Maxima (auto) RAPES my auto 330xi everywhere in the powerband, minus the launch (AWD duh!).

Any auto G35 would easily beat an auto 330i and give a manual 330 a run for its money. The newer 280 hp auto G35's probably would beat a well driven manual 330. Only the ZHP could given a manual G35 a run for its money.

An auto TL would also easily beat an auto 330i, and the 6MT TL would also give a manual 330i a hard time, though the 330i does have an advantage at launch.

the new 300 horse IS300? And just think of what other 30-40k sport sedans other manufacturers are going to come out with in the next few years? I guarentee all of them have 250+ hp/250+ tq.

True, its not all about numbers. But these numbers dont lie. And kinda make me scared. I dont wanna buy a 2006 330i and get smoked by some punk that thinks his G35 is better just because its faser. The Ultimate Driving Machine should be the faster and best performer. And I just dont think the new 330i will be the fastest most of the time, minus excellent driver.


You need to consider that thet G35 makes a weaker power band when compared to the 330i. Also The new 330i auto ran 0-60 in 5.6 and a 14.3@98 something quarter and this was an abused tester (none sport packaged euro model).... the manual didnt pull those numbers in car and driver. Add some slicker tires and a manual and you can compare it with the 05' G35 manual which did 5.8 to 60 and a 14.1 at 99. Its a drivers race now.

Given perfect drivers I think the new 330i manual on manual is faster from a stand still. Also I think auto on auto, its much faster. The G is just not as fast in auto (5 speed) and dosnt go unless it is launched.

I have an old car and driver in which they tested ALL auto's. They tested the 04' G35 A5 at 7.1 and 04' BMW 330i A5 (none sport) at 7.2. Those numbers were slowed due to weather conditions I believe. The fastest a G35 (none 300hp) has ever been tested was in road and track at 6.2(man). In that same issue they tested the 330i(man) sport at 6.1 and faster times then the G35 up until 100mph.
With its added 20 hp (280) I doubt the 05 5A will get in the 5's at all like the 05 330i auto did, considering the 05' manual barely hits under 6 seconds and the fastest auto time for the 260 hp verion has been barely under 7 seconds.
So to wrap it up

05' G35 auto 5(280hp) < then new 330i auto
05' G35 Manual 6(+18hp) = 330i 6 speed (drivers race)

G35 autos are really slush, but add 18hp and a manual and they suddenly become more even cars.

No way is the new TL faster off the line, maybe from a 3rd gear roll bec. they have mad 3rd gear power but its not a overall faster car.
True though, the Ultimate driving machine could use some more power.

You need to consider that thet G35 makes a weaker power band when compared to the 330i. Also The new 330i auto ran 0-60 in 5.6 and a 14.3@98 something quarter and this was an abused tester (none sport packaged euro model).... the manual didnt pull those numbers in car and driver. Add some slicker tires and a manual and you can compare it with the 05' G35 manual which did 5.8 to 60 and a 14.1 at 99. Its a drivers race now.

Given perfect drivers I think the new 330i manual on manual is faster from a stand still. Also I think auto on auto, its much faster. The G is just not as fast in auto (5 speed) and dosnt go unless it is launched.

I have an old car and driver in which they tested ALL auto's. They tested the 04' G35 A5 at 7.1 and 04' BMW 330i A5 (none sport) at 7.2. Those numbers were slowed due to weather conditions I believe. The fastest a G35 (none 300hp) has ever been tested was in road and track at 6.2(man). In that same issue they tested the 330i(man) sport at 6.1 and faster times then the G35 up until 100mph.
With its added 20 hp (280) I doubt the 05 5A will get in the 5's at all like the 05 330i auto did, considering the 05' manual barely hits under 6 seconds and the fastest auto time for the 260 hp verion has been barely under 7 seconds.
So to wrap it up

05' G35 auto 5(280hp) < then new 330i auto
05' G35 Manual 6(+18hp) = 330i 6 speed (drivers race)

G35 autos are really slush, but add 18hp and a manual and they suddenly become more even cars.

No way is the new TL faster off the line, maybe from a 3rd gear roll bec. they have mad 3rd gear power but its not a overall faster car.
True though, the Ultimate driving machine could use some more power.
I'm going to agree with this. I drove the new G35 coupe and was not impressed with the all-around power. I thought it would be much faster than the e90. I was very impressed with the TL's power though. I think we'll be getting one since it includes every option I would have to pay extra for on the e90 with a butt-load of torque. :)

The Boxster S is not the "fastest" in it's class 0-60 either, but it would eat any other car's lunch in it's class on a racetrack.

Plus, it not about how much HP you have, or how fast you can go from 0-60 or do the 1/4 mile in, it's about how fast you can lap the 'Ring.

Exactly. The biggest difference i notice about cars is how much they pull once they get going. 80-120kmph numbers are also important as they show driveability etc.

Oh yeah, as for bmw being slowest in class.. *cough* M5 *cough*

Oh yeah, and this board does have an FI section for those who feel a bmw needs more power to be the best...

Buying based on an engine HP number is like buying a crap computer with a flashy clock speed that sucks in the real world.

And what about efficiency? New 330i gets 30+ mpg on the highway... One of the things I love about BMW is the mechanical efficiency that's baked into the engineering.

Don't you think it would be easy for them to up HP if that was their focus? You armchair automotive geniuses are so f-ing funny :stickoutt

the E90's will be in a much more competetive position because of the electric water pump, etc. Because the new accessories are not run by the engine
SAE Net horsepower (what all manufacturers quote) takes into account engine accessories: they run the test with the engine accessories in place and function. This means that BMW's 255 horsepower with an electric pump is directly comparable to someone else's horsepower with a belt driven pump. They are both computed with all accesories taken into account.

I think one of the points most of you fail to recognize is the fact that new magnezium/aluminum N52 engine is one of the top 5 most efficient engines in the world, lightest 6 cylinder in the world, most technologically advanced 6 cylinder in the world, and has one of the fattest, flattest torque curves I have ever seen. Just looking at hp figures is kinda dumb and everyone knows they underrate the hp numbers anyway. But that's just my opinion.

I think one of the points most of you fail to recognize is the fact that new magnezium/aluminum N52 engine is one of the top 5 most efficient engines in the world, lightest 6 cylinder in the world, most technologically advanced 6 cylinder in the world, and has one of the fattest, flattest torque curves I have ever seen. Just looking at hp figures is kinda dumb and everyone knows they underrate the hp numbers anyway. But that's just my opinion.

Great point. The refinement in this car is amazing. I have to say that I continue to be impressed!

Great point. The refinement in this car is amazing. I have to say that I continue to be impressed!
Well it's good to here that somebody has something positive to say about the car, and not bitch about how the Infiniti G35 has a few more hp and is therefore "better" than the new 330i.

If all you care about is speed, go get a v8 mustang or something.

get you a bmw .. you will luv it no matter of others are faster.... quality over quantity


later

Guys, I see the new 330i with the 255hp/221 tq and I can't decide whether I really really want it, or If I dont because other cars in the class MIGHT be faster, straight up

Lets estimate that the new 330i w/ 6 speed does 0-60 in 5.6, 1/4 mile in 14.2.

Infiniti G35 6MT: 300hp/260 tq....Car and Driver got the 260hp one to do 5.7, 14.2! The new one might pull a high 13's 1/4 mile, for LESS money.

Merc. Benz C350: 258 hp/268tq. Strong numbers. 7 speed auto should make it as quick as the 6MT.

Acura TL 6MT: 270 hp/238 tq. People are pulling around 14.3 in this car, still close to the new 330i for about 6K less money.

New Audi A4 3.2: Direct Injection 255 hp/252 tq. If they keep the weight down, this should run low 14s as well.

New Lexus IS: Supposedly will get a 300 hp I6! Thats an 85 hp boost, easily be a low 14s car which the manual tranny


All im saying is that I think BMW needs to do better than 255 hp, even if the 255 hp is underrated a little bit. If anything, it needs more torque. I think BMW really could have made a 300 horse 3.2L 6 and made everyone really happy.

Thoughts anyone?



Har har har!

can you say e90 M3!1!!!1one!on!e!


Har har!

Har har har!

can you say e90 M3!1!!!1one!on!e!


Har har!

The E90 M3 is going to have 400+ ponies. I think a detuned E46 motor making roughly 300 hp would have made sense for the 330i, but the thing is, the new engine in the E90 is basically a whole new engine, and the first time they have used valvetronic on an I-6. So it's more than just power they were after. It was also efficiency. I am pretty sure that the G35 doesn't get 30 MPG on the highway.

Then again, it's not like the slogan says "BMW, the ultimate MPG machine". Kind of dowdy! Besides, that's the title held by the prius and diesel cars.

There was a lot of speculation last year that BMW was developing a turbocharged 3.0 to fill the expected gap between the new 330 and the new M3, somewhere in the 320-340 hp. range. I haven't heard much about it lately, but it may still be in the works.

Why do you care about the numbers? BMW is not the value leader. It does not give you the most bang for the buck objectively speaking, and never will.

The only way a BMW is the right choice for you or anyone, IMHO, is if they want it for something more than its 0-60 time or hp rating. It is because the BMW gives them something beyond the objective, something visceral. You have to be the kind of person who enjoys the drive.

The spirit of BMW is more Italian than the other german marques. Benz is more serious and Audi still a bit more quirky on the whole, although I speak perhaps of a BMW of years past, peaking in the 80s and 90s.

The raw #s are not the answer to the question you ask.

And this is coming from someone who daily drives a 2004 6spd/Navi TL and chose that over all e46 models, as a daily driver. I didn't want an M3 in the winter. I like the E46 330, but the E46 I want is a 330xi wagon so I am SOL.

The new 530xi wagon looks interesting. I am trying to hold out for a C4S next summer/fall.

BTW, for those lamenting the lack of BMW horsepower, you may not be aware that those in the know (Roundel and others) have been reporting for some time that BMW is going to go with forced induction, turbocharging, to bridge the gap between the top of the normal range and the M models. It is quite possible they will supplement the range with a 3.0 FI engine with approx. 340-50 hp. They may also be bringing diesels that have more torque at low rpm than an E39 M5 at peak if the US can get the consumer diesel market up and running again.


Forget the C4S, get the new 997 Carrera S. My Dad just ordered his 06, can't wait, 360hp. :)

They did make a 300+hp 3.2L I6, it's in the E46 M3.

:rofl

And you know what else is scary...BMW models usually stay around for 5-6 years. So lets assume that the 2006 330i will be in its last model year around 2011. You think 255 hp is going to cut it in 5 years? in 3 years? Just look at the current 225 hp 330i. When it first came out, it trumped or equaled everything in the class power/tq wise (Lexus IS-215 hp, A4-220, CTS-220, Jag Xtype- 227). But in only 2 model years, by 2003, other cars were trumping its power rating. Then Acura had the TL-S w/ 260 hp (automatic only) and the manual 330i was only a little faster than it. Then the new 255 hp CTS? Then came the 240 horsepower Accord Coupe 6MT that runs a 14.5 for 26k? Then the 260 hp G35 sedan and 280 hp G35 coupe, for around 32k? By the E46's 330i's 3rd or 4th model year, it was in trouble in the power game. And now, the new 2006 330i isnt even in its 1st model year and it already has the least power and torque in the class. In 2-3 years, competitors that havent made a new model as of yet are easily going to trump it. BMW is going to have to up the ante. A 3.2 or 3.5 L engine w/ around 300 hp is needed. Fast.

You're reeeeaaaaallllly up in arms about this whole hp/tq thing in the E90's aren't you?

I see more E30's on the road still than many new model cars around here. E30's are SLOW compared to many new cars. Gee, I wonder why people still drive em.. Ever wonder why?

If you don't know, then please go buy that G35 coupe that's waiting for you on the showroom floor.

I own and drive the slowest BMW made and sold in the states in about 10 years (or whenever the ti's stopped selling). Every day I wizz by all these new, fast cars.. It's all about who (or what) is in the driver's seat. BMW's provide the 'driver' with an amazingly well handling, well powered car. You could give a moron 1000hp and a good driver 200hp, set them at a track and I'd still bet on the 200hp guy.. My car *is* that 5 year old 'underpowered' car you're talking about.. Just what *is* the difference from 5.7 and 5.9? Christ, a bumper's distance if you have the throttle to the floor?


On a friendlier side note, I saw my first E90 on the road today. Guess what, I ran off and left the poor guy driving it standing still (he was looking over at me and smiling, so heck I figured he was going to show me what it could do!), only to see him in my rear view mirror try to keep up and make his way through traffic to me. He failed, even though I was trying my best to slow back up and let him get beside me so I could check it out again, (and ask him to 'really' stomp it so I could see it scoot)..

You can argue (discuss!) that mystical 10-15hp that's going to 'make the world's difference' if you want. Or go test drive the darn thing and settle it for yourself.

All im saying is that I think BMW needs to do better than 255 hp, even if the 255 hp is underrated a little bit. If anything, it needs more torque. I think BMW really could have made a 300 horse 3.2L 6 and made everyone really happy.
Thoughts anyone?

I think horsepower is seriously over rated. Yes, I like powerful cars. After owning a Porsche though, I have found that it's all about Balance. Other cars in the class may have bigger horsepower ratings, but I think the BMW has a better all around package (weight, balance, suspension, brakes).

I used to be excited by the car with the biggest numbers, but you really need to look at the whole picture when choosing a car. You can always add more horsepower as you want.

IMHO

Forget the C4S, get the new 997 Carrera S. My Dad just ordered his 06, can't wait, 360hp. :)

I agree with Nimble... Forget the C4S, I just traded my C4 cabrio for a 325i, a much better all around car. Also, the new C2S is an awesome car even compared to the C4S. You gotta remember 996 vs. 997.

brahtw8, how can you compare the 530xi and a C4S in the same sentence? seems like opposite ends of the spectrum.

If you're going on a race track, go for the C4S... If you are going to have a "real" car to drive everyday, get the BMW. Seriously look at all the miles you drive a car to choose what you need, not just those 30 second bursts on the weekends.

Forget the C4S, get the new 997 Carrera S. My Dad just ordered his 06, can't wait, 360hp. :)

This would be a daily driver, so AWD is what I am looking for.

I can't really afford the 996 C4S as a daily driver until next year, at the earliest, so a 997 Carrerra S or the upcoming 997 C4S is out of the question for quite a while.

I agree with Nimble... Forget the C4S, I just traded my C4 cabrio for a 325i, a much better all around car. Also, the new C2S is an awesome car even compared to the C4S. You gotta remember 996 vs. 997.

brahtw8, how can you compare the 530xi and a C4S in the same sentence? seems like opposite ends of the spectrum.

If you're going on a race track, go for the C4S... If you are going to have a "real" car to drive everyday, get the BMW. Seriously look at all the miles you drive a car to choose what you need, not just those 30 second bursts on the weekends.

While I appreciate your input, I am well aware of the above.

I already have my NSX as a weekend driver and a track car for HPDEs around the midwest, and it is not going anywhere for quite a while. This would be a daily driver. The only question is how much fun I want in the daily versus utility.

There is no question the 996 C4S and the 530xi are very different cars. (They were also mentioned in different sentences) Nevertheless, they are similarly priced and I am looking at both down the road as a possible daily driver.

I also understand the superiority of the 997, but as indicated above I can't drop that kind of coin. If I were going to sell the NSX and have just one car, it would probably be a 996 TT.

I gotta step in and say that simply quoting hp/tq is sooo not what BMW is about. I am sold on BMW because they are by far the most athletic in their respective classes...I mean come on...how long has the 3 and 5 series been on Car and Drivers Top Ten list.
I'm sure if BMW was really concerned and worried about having the highest hp in their class they would have done so....