I'm getting paranoid about the oil pump nut problem on my '99 M3 convertible. I just called a shop to get an estimate to drop the oil pan and loctite the oil pump nut so it won't fall off. I spun three times at my last autox last year, and I stalled the car at least once if not twice in those spins.

I know vjlax18 and ///Mracer both had this problem last season. Is there any other preventative maintenance I should have the shop do while the front subframe and oil pan are off the car? If I can save some money and get two jobs for the price of 1 1/2, I'd like to.

Thanks in advance,

Scott

I'm getting paranoid about the oil pump nut problem on my '99 M3 convertible. I just called a shop to get an estimate to drop the oil pan and loctite the oil pump nut so it won't fall off. I spun three times at my last autox last year, and I stalled the car at least once if not twice in those spins.

I know vjlax18 and ///Mracer both had this problem last season. Is there any other preventative maintenance I should have the shop do while the front subframe and oil pan are off the car? If I can save some money and get two jobs for the price of 1 1/2, I'd like to.

Thanks in advance,

Scott

Scott with all due respect brotha, I think yer being a bit too paranoid :eek: ...I have yet to hear of an oil pump nut issue in the E46 cars (inc. M3)...don't worry so much...

Doby and Matt have E36 cars and do like 50 autoxes a month...they are also crazy drivers :eyecrazy :stickoutt (sorry guys just exaggerating for sake of argument :stickoutt )...

look your car should be fine, the engine problems seen in the E46 have nothing to do with the oil pump nut backing off, spun bearings maybe, crank walk possibly, but oil pump nuts, naw not that :)

If I had an E46 M3 convertible, well then I'd be RICH!!! :D

My '99 convertible is an E36 like John and Matt have. This is why I'm getting worried. I know John replaced a motor this winter. I'm thinking $300 to get into the oil pan is WAY cheaper than $6k for a new motor. Plus, the peace of mind that I can spin the car all I want without worrying about the drive home is worth something to me.

Not that the goal of autox is spinning the car, but when I'm driving, it seems to happen anyway. :help

Scott

scott has an e36;)

edit:you beat me to it

scott has an e36;)

Oh. :(

Scott


Wait, did I just bust on myself? :confused

Oh. :(

Scott


Wait, did I just bust on myself? :confused
make it twice now buddy :D

If I had an E46 M3 convertible, well then I'd be RICH!!! :D

My '99 convertible is an E36 like John and Matt have. This is why I'm getting worried. I know John replaced a motor this winter. I'm thinking $300 to get into the oil pan is WAY cheaper than $6k for a new motor. Plus, the peace of mind that I can spin the car all I want without worrying about the drive home is worth something to me.

Not that the goal of autox is spinning the car, but when I'm driving, it seems to happen anyway. :help

Scott

ah ok Scott my bad, you've got an E36...alright then it can happen :( ...you have good reasoning to be worried it seems...

although on the LTW (figured I'd take care of that since I'm sure terp or Phat ham would if I didn't ;) :stickoutt ) I still don't have anything done to the oil pump nut, never got it tacked, safety wired, loctited, or anything...it's just as it came from the factory...it's gone through 2 years of track usage and 1 full year of racing in '04 and it's still fine :dunno...hell I've spun the car also, been off course skipping along at 120+ mph, been through gravel traps & sand traps...all kinda stuff on top of the countless laps done as hard as I could push the car, and still nothing...dunno what to tell ya...

I've spun the car also, been off course skipping along at 120+ mph, been through gravel traps & sand traps... :eek: all kinda stuff on top of the countless laps done as hard as I could push the car, and still nothing...dunno what to tell ya...
I see what you mean. It seems to be random. I'm just wondering if I want to take the chance. I cannot afford to buy another engine right now.

Scott

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that the oil pump nut problem was brought on by repeatedly slamming off the limiter. With Sunir, I don't really see slamming off the limiter as frequently as your would in autox. Unless at a fast track, he is slamming off of it because of lower top speed due to his diff.

Sunir-when you do hit top speed at a faster track and there's still room, do you just stay on it?

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that the oil pump nut problem was brought on by repeatedly slamming off the limiter.
In the M3 forum there is a long argument about that:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=256066
(It gets ugly on page 2, don't waste your time)

Some think it is caused by hitting the rev limiter (which I've done) and others think it is caused by back-driving the motor in reverse while spinning out (which I've done.)

The way I see it, my (lack of) autox skillz are putting me on a fast track to zero oil pressure. I'm thinking of preventive maintenance here.

Should I just forget it? :dunno

Scott

I mean if it's $300 and you're that worried about it, why not for at least peace of mind?

I don't know if others like JV or Glenn have done it. Maybe they can comment if and why they have or have not.

Scott -

That's pretty expensive "maintenance" ... I know that's not a cheap fix to go in there. You can replace the oil pump gasket b/w the pickup tube and the pump and the oil pan gasket.

You might also want to consider welding in an oil pan baffle. I believe this will eliminate any lifter tick. This would prevent oil starvation if you got fast and/or decided to track the car. I believe motor mounts would be a necessary replacement at this point as well.

Just make sure to check your oil pressure to see if you need a new pump. Use an accurate gauge. I believe you have to drop the subframe, support the engine, and it should be around 6-7 hours to do this minimum. I think dealerships charge around $1K for it.

Are you sure you want to?

As Jed mentioned, people that bang off the rev limiter or spin out in autocross/track without fully engaging the clutch would have this problem. If you don't spin out ... might not be worth the added expense. It's pretty expensive to just prevent a "perhaps" type of thing. If you were as fast as JD/JV/Glenn etc... no problems -- but, I don't think you need it at this point unless you are spinning a lot.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought that the oil pump nut problem was brought on by repeatedly slamming off the limiter. With Sunir, I don't really see slamming off the limiter as frequently as your would in autox. Unless at a fast track, he is slamming off of it because of lower top speed due to his diff.

Sunir-when you do hit top speed at a faster track and there's still room, do you just stay on it?

good question Jeddy...it all depends if I can get the upshift in before the transition point or not... for example entering T10 at Summit I am topped out in 4th going under the bridge, shift light comes on...I could shift to 5th but that is not the gear I'd want to be in going onto the front straight unless I'd downshift again, which would take more time...so I leave it pegged in 4th for that period under the bride to the point of trailing the brake slightly to get the car to bite into T10, then wind it out again to peak and shift to 5th on the striaght...sustaining a gear for the advantage over shifting is not uncommon, it's a tradoff and if anything I'd think it stresses the valvetrain more than anything...although in racing we do this at higher speeds and at higher gears (ussually 3rd or 4th), the other alternative is short shifting if you peak the gear during the forthcoming curve (there are times to do this and times to not do this)...

there's a few other corners at other places I do this, at Mid Ohio, at VIR, and Summit, and a couple of turns at Watkins Glen...if this was the culprit of oil pump nut failure I'd have surely been gone through it by now... :dunno

Scott with all due respect brotha, I think yer being a bit too paranoid :eek: ...I have yet to hear of an oil pump nut issue in the E46 cars (inc. M3)...don't worry so much...

Doby and Matt have E36 cars and do like 50 autoxes a month...they are also crazy drivers :eyecrazy :stickoutt (sorry guys just exaggerating for sake of argument :stickoutt )...

look your car should be fine, the engine problems seen in the E46 have nothing to do with the oil pump nut backing off, spun bearings maybe, crank walk possibly, but oil pump nuts, naw not that :)
TC Kline blew a bunch of Z4 engines until they started putting loctite on the oil pump nut.

It ain't gone.

....people that bang off the rev limiter or spin out in autocross/track without fully engaging the clutch would have this problem. -- but, I don't think you need it at this point unless you are spinning a lot.
Would a spin in every event qualify as a lot? :help

:( I hope SMG puts the clutch in fast enough. I'll be sure to let you all know if it is still a problem with the e46m3.

I don't think it's caused by a spin. The physics of it just don't make sense. The rev limiter I can see, especially if it's a "hard" limiter. Seems more likely it happens as a result of lightweight crank pullies to me.

FWIW I have not had mine done and the car has slammed into the rev limiter quite a bit since I've had it. The problem with the oil pump nut is you never know when it might just let go.

Still, I'm more interested in putting money towards oil changes and tires and just keeping my eye on the oil pressure light. I'm also strongly considering installing a gauge and a warning buzzer.

John

I small but sizable fraction of E46 M3 engine failures were linked to the oil pump nut. I really can't understand why BMW lets this continue.

Edit: And I'm told that at least with the E46 M3, the oil pressure light won't come on until after irreversible engine damage.

I small but sizable fraction of E46 M3 engine failures were linked to the oil pump nut. I really can't understand why BMW lets this continue.

Edit: And I'm told that at least with the E46 M3, the oil pressure light won't come on until after irreversible engine damage.

I think this is the same with the E36 though as well. By the time the oil light comes on, you are SOL. That's why JV's idea is better, an audible alarm if oil drops below a certain level. That is what most FI people put in their car. The SPA gauge at $300 is one of the best.

Spinning the car and leaving it in gear will stop the motor so fast that the nut will continue to spin and spin right off the shaft.

I really think it was bouncing the limiter in first gear that spun mine off the second time. I probably could have gotten away with putting the nut back on the second time, but I already had the motor out and refi'd the car to pay for the new motor so I just had Brant go to town with it.

Scott, I don't think you really need to worry about it. I don't see you beating the shyt out of your car on a regular basis. If you do end up having the pan dropped, you should replace the pump AND the nut as well as looking at the rod bearings.

I am not running the VAC baffle like I had originally planned because I was told I didn't need it with the new lilfters in the newly rebuilt motor.

I now have a working oil pressure gauge and will be installing a mini shift light hooked up to the oil pressure. I may not be able hear a buzzer when in the car with the DMGv2 exhaust. :stickoutt

Oh, and as far as it happening because of a crank pulley, I think it could happen with a lightweight flywheel just as easily. I believe it has to do with how fast the motor spins up in the rpm followed by the sudden stop of the limiter.

FYI, I am not running the crank pulley anymore because I was told not to by Brant because of the new engine and the secret shyt done to it... which I don't know. :( I'm imagining something was done to the crank and the dampner is needed now, unlike before. So the AA uber rattling ltw fly is going in with my new stock clutch. :)

EDIT: My crank pulley came from Brant, so it's safe for normal cars. But nothing I do is normal anymore. :dunno

Oh, and welding the nut to the shaft is a bad idea so I'm told. It heats up the tiny little shaft so much that it becomes easy to break... which has happened before... so I'm told. Loctite and safety wire is the only way to go.

FYI, I am not running the crank pulley anymore because I was told not to by Brant because of the new engine and the secret shyt done to it... which I don't know. :( I'm imagining something was done to the crank and the dampner is needed now, unlike before. So the AA uber rattling ltw fly is going in with my new stock clutch. :)

EDIT: My crank pulley came from Brant, so it's safe for normal cars. But nothing I do is normal anymore. :dunno

Ahhhhhhh. Sounds like OUR car is gonna kick azz. Can I put it under my list of cars????? :eek:

:D

I havent done the nut either... I was going to do it when I did the retainers in my 95, but havent really had a chance to. Now that Im thinking about selling the 95, I just dont care anymore :)

Ahhhhhhh. Sounds like OUR car is gonna kick azz. Can I put it under my list of cars????? :eek:

:D

You are not officially the co-driver just yet.... more like the co-pusher. :dunno

I think we all NEED to have our pump nuts checked-out. :D

Seriously, it is a random engine killer. I've heard of street cars spinning the nut, and cars like Doby's - spinning multiple nuts. You just never know when your number is gonna come up. :(

I hope to have Brant check/secure my sheit before the coming season . . .
the peace of mind alone is worth it for me.

I think we all NEED to have our pump nuts checked-out. :D

I don't think Brant will ask you to cough though. :dunno

I think we all NEED to have our pump nuts checked-out. :D

Maybe we can get a group buy going on getting our nuts checked? Doing them all at one time would certainly be more than anyone could handle, so we'd probably want to individually reserve our own times.

Also, Doby brings up a good point about checking out the rod assembly while the nuts are being checked. Sounds like the voice of experience, to me. He also brings up a good point about being careful not to be too aggressive when working with the nuts, since a broken shaft is certainly not what anyone here is looking for.

..... careful not to be too aggressive when working with the nuts,

..... a broken shaft is certainly not what anyone here is looking for.

Rob, they are talking about engines. :rolleyes

It heats up the tiny little shaft so much that it becomes easy to break... which has happened before... so I'm told. Loctite and safety wire is the only way to go.

I'm not going to go against personal experience here. Especially from someone who now uses Loctite and safety wire :eek:

might be a little uncomfortable the first time the subject is brought up, however.

I'm also strongly considering installing a gauge and a warning buzzer.



this is a great idea JV....I've got an oil pressure guage and just below I have a very bright LED warning light set to go off during a rapid loss of oil pressure to a pre-set psi...so that I know when and if I'm gonna bust a nut :D :stickoutt ...same setup is done for water temp...I wouldn't use an audible, chances are your not going to hear it...use a very effective visual instead...everything is a reach away from the engine kill switch which cuts power to the DME...

Well for a group buy to work with these projects, the cars would have to be left for a week. It took him and I over 6 hours to do the job from start to finish. If you are all serious about a GB then I'll talk to him.

I was just attempting to make teh funnay.

:(

I must be losing my touch. Maybe Jed can give me some pointers?

I was just attempting to make teh funnay.

:(

I must be losing my touch. Maybe Jed can give me some pointers?
my name is george, not jed.

I think this is the same with the E36 though as well. By the time the oil light comes on, you are SOL. That's why JV's idea is better, an audible alarm if oil drops below a certain level. That is what most FI people put in their car. The SPA gauge at $300 is one of the best.
I don't think that's true for E36s. Last summer at one of the DEs at the Jefferson Circuit, we were red-flagged and as I came to a stop and the engine dropped to idle, the oil light came on for a second. I was scared as all sin, but looked at the oil pressure gauge and it was a little lower than normal at idle, and touching the throttle brought it right back up. The oil temperature, however, was high, but within reason for track driving. It seems that the oil had just thinned out at that temperature (like oil does) enough to set off the low oil pressure light.