Greetings fellow power junkies!

Although I know that this isn't precisely forced-induction related (no turbo or blower), I figured that you FI guys would enjoy, understand and appreciate this because although there are no turbos, it's a crazy power project, just like you guys are going for.

Enough apologies/disclaimer...onto the story of my S38 N/A/A (Naturally Aspirated Ass-Kicker) buildup....lots of HP, no turbos. If you want the juicy details and pics, scroll down.

Background:
I purchased my 1988 M6 this summer, thinking that I would drive the car around a bit for fun, do little fixes, and eventually when I decide to sell it, make some money or at least break even. That changed about two seconds after the rear door on the enclosed trailer it came from Arizona in opened. I fell in love and knew I met my match. Since then, I've taken on a restoration/modification that sticks to the philosophy of maintaining the original spirit of the car and incorporating my own spirit and edge at the same time. This meant that I wanted the car to be faster in a straight line, in turns and in breaking than almost anything else out there. But the original didn't have turbos, so I couldn't in good conscience turbocharge that motor...too far from its heritage.

I did my research and decided a high compression, bigger displacement performance build-up was neccesary. I met with George and Brian right as ICS was building up steam, and kicked around some ideas. After we talked with Jim Rowe at Metric Mechanic with some ideas, I finally settled on a setup...it's a setup that's entirely unique, utilizing some ideas/concepts of mine that hadn't been considered before, along with George's expertise and Jim Rowe's 30 years of m-motor experience. The M6's heart got pulled out on November 6th after I broke one of the transmission mounts during a hard launch. It then went out to Metric Mechanic for the Rowe clan of wizards (yes, there's a whole family that literally lives m-motors...his son teddy has been rebuilding m motors since age 8... :eek: ) to work their magic and expertise on the base of this power quest. Here's the perscription:


Engine Specs:
-95.4mm, 12:1 forged and vented Wiseco pistons (328 grams a piece :buttrock , 660 stock:nono)
-90mm S38B38 crank assembly and conversion (stock crank is 84mm), including 4 bolt crank hub
-lightened, cryo-treated, shot peened and balanced S38B35 141mm connecting rods (S38B38 con-rods are 139mm, not good)
- +1.5mm wide Ferrea intake valves (now 38.5, stock is 37), +0.5 wide Ferrea exhaust valves (32.0 stock, 32.5 now). 5 angle valve job, Dual Ti valvesprings, Ti retainers, hollow stock diameter valvestems, bronze/manganese valveguides
-Surface Turbulence finishing and HUGE port increase, i forget how much, i think it was either 25 or 27mm stock and it's at 31mm now...that's one detail I always forget.
-Cams(this was my input/design idea): 284deg intake, 274deg exhaust cams with a variably symmetrical/asymetrical (smoothed, symmetrical profile and profiled lifter is the method) medium/high overlap (because of valvetrain strength and stiffness, overlap will remain constant throughout the rev range, making power more linear)
-S52 chain tensioner upgrade
-Cometic cutting ring Head Gasket, 11.9:1 real-world compression.
-High volume oil pump, modified oil passages, oil pan baffle for extreme cornering loads
-Modified water passages, high volume water pump.
-ARP hardware throughout the whole assembly.
Engine Data
Displacement: 3.9 liters (3860CCs)
Advertised compression: 12:1
Real compression: 11.9:1
Redline: Pump gas: 7500 RPM. 104 octane: 8000 RPM
Approximate Crank HP: Minimum of 385HP@6600 RPM
Approximate Crank TQ: Minimum of 325lb/ft@5500 RPM

The reason I say minimum is because those are numbers that Rowe produced on an S38 motor with a 11.3:1 real compression 3.9 liter conversion with less headwork (less power) but with far more agressive, albeit not as effective cams (higher RPM delivery). Last (and most importantly) that motor used bone stock engine management. That means he used the junky stock log manifold, restrictive 45mm intake runners and TBs, restrictive and neanderthal AFM, asphyxiating stock catalytic converters, ancient stock distributed ignition, stock injectors and FPR. I'm using none of this stuff. Rowe guesses at least 430 to the crank and 375 lb/ft torque with what I have planned (secret!) on pump gas. Rowe acknowledges that a skilled tuner may well be able to get more. George at ICS says that I can get 475 at the crank on pump gas. Also, for those of you that may scoff at the prospect of going for big power N/A because of the lack of anything but top end power, Rowe says that with the cams I inspired, peak torque will come 1,000 rpm sooner than it did on the other S38 he built (better profile) and will still have 75% of peak torque @ 3,000 rpm. I'm essentially coming on cam around the time that you guys come on boost. The things I have planned will only improve the power delivery further. Here are the pictures of the motor. It's going to be finished late on friday, and will make its way back to CT on monday. Enjoy...

Block Honing (beginning):
http://homepage.mac.com/metricmechanicinc/.Pictures/Photo%20Album%20Pictures/2005-01-05%2016.41.05%20-0800/Image-DA9C958A5F7911D9.jpg
Cam Box Grinding
http://homepage.mac.com/metricmechanicinc/.Pictures/Photo%20Album%20Pictures/2005-01-05%2016.41.05%20-0800/Image-DA9B6B3A5F7911D9.jpg
Head is coming together:
http://homepage.mac.com/metricmechanicinc/.Pictures/Photo%20Album%20Pictures/2005-01-05%2016.41.05%20-0800/Image-DA9C23F15F7911D9.jpg
Bottom of shortblock:
http://homepage.mac.com/metricmechanicinc/.Pictures/Photo%20Album%20Pictures/2005-01-05%2016.41.05%20-0800/Image-DA9CBD4E5F7911D9.jpg
Front of shortblock
http://homepage.mac.com/metricmechanicinc/.Pictures/Photo%20Album%20Pictures/2005-01-05%2016.41.05%20-0800/Image-DA9CE20D5F7911D9.jpg

Stay tuned, more to come...LOTS more to come that i'm sure you FI junkies will eat up! This thing is going to be laying down some serious numbers that will more than likely embarass a good number of you F/I guys...not bad for 70s racing technology without turbos, eh?

:wow :wow Absolutely amazing post! I love all the info & pictures! I can't wait to see this thing finished. God bless you son.

yes that is awsome but why not lower the compression and throw a turbo on that beast.OMFG that would be a sic ass M6. let the fun begin

Greetings fellow power junkies!
..
Stay tuned, more to come...LOTS more to come that i'm sure you FI junkies will eat up! This thing is going to be laying down some serious numbers that will more than likely embarass a good number of you F/I guys...not bad for 70s racing technology without turbos, eh?
Sounds really cool, I love the S38B38 engines.

Don't kid yourself with the FI vs NA comparison though ;-) You might get a few of the kit boys, but you'll never touch the serious turbos.

Cameron,

Thanks! I respect and admire where you've gone with your car, so i'm happy that it meets your approval. You can expect a plethora of dyno sheets from the beginning (right before the motor was pulled, it made 213 RWHP on George's Dynojet 448X) up through all the stages that this thing is going to go through.

Rowe reccomends that the motor be broken in on entirely stock engine management, ignition and fuel delivery. He even said that reprogrammed chips are a no-no. Then, at 1,000 miles, a chip can be added on (motor's basically broken in at that point). At 1,500 miles, the whole shebang should be truly solid. Break-in on high-po N/A applications is CRITICAL, not only so that the motor doesn't blow or have a short lifespan, it can also determine the amount and the charachteristics of power. So, at 1,500 miles, I will finally be able to go standalone. I have narrowed my choices down to the Haltech E6X, the Haltech E11v2, the Electromotive TECIIIR, and the AEM EMS. It will be a sequential fuel injected, direct fire ignition setup with MAP metering, knock detection, idle control solenoid and maps, WB02 adaptive afr adjustment (helps to get amazingly accurate base maps...adjusts injector pulse width and duty cycle based on the AFRs of the WB02). Bigger injectors, rising rate FPR, direct fire, multi capacitive ignition and more can only be managed by an aftermarket EMS. This is where the serious power kick and driveability increase is going to come...this is what's going to make the car.

However, that's just the engine management. I'm going to be boring and port matching the stock throttle bodies and intake runners from 45mm to 48mm. Once the MAP metering gets rid of the ice-age technology AFM, I will run it with the intake horns individually filtered at the opening (ala Ferrari V12s and Astons and other old cars with Webers and the like of yore) which, aside from looking and sounding absolutely deadly, will allow me to quickly change the intake horns I'm using depending on what I want. The engine's behavior changes based on the length of the intake horns. A shorter intake horn will yield more top-end power, while a longer intake horn will yield more low-down torque. I've never seen this done to an S38 before, although a few S14 nuts have done this.

I'm then putting on a set of European equal-length headers which I cut off at the primary collectors so it can have larger diameter piping to accomodate the larger amount of air the engine will be breathing. This will flow to two high flow catalytic converters that will exist purely for emission testing's sake, and replaced by straight pipes on the road, and will continue back with two resonators (no raspiness tolerated!) per pipe into a dual inlet/dual outlet straight-through muffler. Obviously this whole setup is going to be custom.

I neglected to mention that I'm using a 10lb flywheel that was balanced with the entire rotating assembly to 9,500 RPM. I'm then using an E34 M5 clutch with a custom modified pressure plate to put it down.

I'm also debating whether or not to use a carbon composite/alloy driveshaft, titanium guibo, solid motor, transmission and subframe mounts and an E36 differential conversion (diff mounts are notoriously weak in our cars, and the E36 diffs are just as robust, lighter weight and can easily accept larger oil volume diff covers. This doesn't exist for older diffs.) However, I'm wary of the stress this will place on the drivetrain, the engine block and the chassis, and the considerable loss of comfort and driveability, not to mention expensive, despite the fact that I'm being sponsored by Gregor Performance Enterprises/Ruthless research, the company who designed this setup. However, this would be impossible to break, and would lose a crapload of reciprocating weight (translates into more HP at the wheels in this case). Chris Gregor designed the setup to accomodate 2,000hp...it's being used in their 1,600HP drag 635CSi that's currently midway through development, and has been used in a daily driven 800hp 1981 528i for 4 years and hasn't broke. However, i think this may go past the 'restoration and modification in the spirit of the original with my individual edge' line that I set for this project. As it is currently planned, this M6 will be extremely driveable, and will be comparable to top-end GTs and sports cars currently on sale, which is what the M6 was back in its heyday. That would make it lose its GT status because of the loss in comfort.

Well...now you all know where i'm going with the car as far as the engine is concerned, which is all that matters in this forum. I didn't want to overload you guys with info, and my hands were getting a little bit tired.

Sounds really cool, I love the S38B38 engines.

Don't kid yourself with the FI vs NA comparison though ;-) You might get a few of the kit boys, but you'll never touch the serious turbos.

I don't have my sights set on you or George or mopowa (when his car gets finished, lol) as far as power goes, that wasn't my goal with this setup. However, I'd definately be able to embarass many kit guys, maybe even a few of the stgII kit guys.
On the drag strip MrBlonde, well, yeah, you will be able to run down the strip faster. But will you have the lb/ft of hot woman appeal that the M6 has? Post your dyno sheet of that...mine could very well drag a small army of young gold diggers across fairfield county...and after the motor swap and restoration, there's no telling what the pull will be....i'll be the sexy N/A man :redspot

If I wanted to go turbo with the M6, it might have ended up a little something like this (http://www.vsmotor.no/en_videos.html) (click link, right click videos and save as on the website). George, don't overheat your laptop like you did when i first showed you these videos, malaka :D :D :D

But will you have the lb/ft of hot woman appeal that the M6 has? Post your dyno sheet of that...mine could very well drag a small army of young gold diggers across fairfield county...and after the motor swap and restoration, there's no telling what the pull will be....i'll be the sexy N/A man

Hee hee, now that's a dyno sheet I'd love to see! What AF ratio is optimal for "hot woman appeal"? :-)

Hee hee, now that's a dyno sheet I'd love to see! What AF ratio is optimal for "hot woman appeal"? :-)

That, my friend, depends on the calibration of each individual probe. The higher the voltage reading the probe demonstrates, the better the A/F is. For some reason, the probes of the rice burners with lots of stickers, no springs, an engine powered by megaphoned hornets and a park bench on the trunk consistently produce pitiful AFRs relative to the women that they attract, so the probes require frequent cleaning, a sign of bad attraction numbers.

Cameron,

Thanks! I respect and admire where you've gone with your car, so i'm happy that it meets your approval. You can expect a plethora of dyno sheets from the beginning (right before the motor was pulled, it made 213 RWHP on George's Dynojet 448X) up through all the stages that this thing is going to go through.
Thanks! You definitely have done your homework! You are obviously quite an enthusiast which I can heavily respect. So much so that you decided on N/A. And I know that George had to have thrown in the idea of turbo atleast a couple of times. I can also appreciate going for N/A. It's not always about massive rubber shredding power. No matter what, it's about doing what you feel is right. Car modding is an art form.

You are doing an amazing project and have my utmost respect.And the people you have aligned yourself with are legends.Now since you have decided to post here in the FI section let me explain a few things.No matter how much you go with bigger displacement you will never,ever reach the same power as FI with the same amount of $$$$.There is no replacement for displacement untill you check your bank account.Having said that,outstanding job. :buttrock

You are obviously quite an enthusiast which I can heavily respect. So much so that you decided on N/A..
Thanks...but enthusiasts are the only ones stupid enough to try and get huge numbers from an N/A car :P :P :P

And I know that George had to have thown in the idea of turbo atleast a couple of times.

He didn't need to, he knew that I'll buy an E36 M3 coupe/cab or an s50/52ed e30M3 at some point in the future which will become a showcase of all around automotive lunacy.

I can also appreciate going for N/A. It's not always about massive rubber shredding power. No matter what, it's about doing what you feel is right. Car modding is an art form.

Couldn't have said it better myself. The M6, even prior to the beginning of this project put a grin on my face that would make even the most forgiving minister declare my imminent descent into hell for my automotive indulgences. After it's all done...wait...hold on...can someone remind me what the word 'done' means again? This will probably be an automotive indulgance and love affair for many many years, so I am doing everything to make it the ultimate evolution of what BMW Motorsport put out those many years ago.

Car modding is an art form.The E24 and the original M88 in the e9 CSLs, back their respected days, were featured in many national museums around the word. They were considered works of art then, and have only become even more so as they've aged. You are absolutely right, car modding is an art form, especially when you're starting on canvas that's already appreciated as art in its own right.

You are doing an amazing project and have my utmost respect.And the people you have aligned yourself with are legends.Now since you have decided to post here in the FI section let me explain a few things.No matter how much you go with bigger displacement you will never,ever reach the same power as FI with the same amount of $$$$.There is no replacement for displacement untill you check your bank account.Having said that,outstanding job. :buttrock

Oh, I never whipped out HP/$ ratios...saying that mine are utterly horrendous would be a gross understatement. Just like how the e36 M3s turbo guys love the looks on other people's faces when they destroy other formidable rivals and are amazed to hear the hiss of a turbo, I'm going to love the look of utter shock on people's faces when they hear my high comp, cammy, throaty big six singing in the rarest of classic sharknose coupes past unsuspecting prey...at least it'll sing a sweet lullaby as it kisses rivals goodnight. Nothing like rare, classic lines (less than 1,700 M6es were ever made, most people on the street don't realize that an M6 existed) that sings classic songs while running like a modern olympic champion sprinter.

On a totally seperate note, jimmy, I also have a great deal of respect for you and your car. I love the e34 body style, and yours happens to be one of the most elegant, tasteful and well balanced e34s i've ever seen...I actually can't think of one that I think has been more tastefully executed. However, in your car, you have more than enough power to match. It's a true dynamo...it does everything right. Your car is straight class...

i have to second what cameron and jimmy said. you are undertaking an amazing project that is truly unique and just plain COOL!!!!! i cant wait to see the finished product and see some numbers. best of luck on this project and future ones. :buttrock :buttrock

Thanks! You probably don't recall, but I actually met you at BFE...your car was there. We talked a little bit about TCD, I happened to mention offhand that I have a M6. Nice car BTW, it should be laying down some nice numbers once you go with an I/C and especially if you do tecIII.

In case anyone was curious, i'm also having the entire interior of the car re-upholstered, and all of the stuff is set to leave shortly. If you're an animal rights advocate, don't look inside an M6, they're covered from floor to ceiling in leather. Mine is lotus white, and I'm having everything reupholstered in that color. The only thing I'm changing is that anything that was a french seam (a type of exposed stitch) is instead being sewn together normally with dye-matched cinnibar red (my exterior color) alacantra piping. It'll hilight the silouette of the seats, and will also hilight the entire center console, front door panels and rear armrests. I am also having a lotus white suede handbrake and shift boot made with red french seams, and the ///M ergonomic shift knob done in lotus white suede with red stitching as well...gotta have clean hands while driving now! The carpets, which were tan, are now going to be dye matched with the lotus white seats. I'm having lotus white floor mats with red border stitiching made with embroidered ///M6 logos made as well.

If you're curious i'll tell you specs on the rest of the car as it's planned right now. Certain things like the paint and wheels I've been struggling with making a decision on. I can't decide how I want to tackle the stone chips on the front and the barely noticeable dings and scratches around the car. And for the past six months, I've been grappling with different variations of wheels, only to come full circle more times than I care to count. Others, like the suspension, i've already purchased, but may very well change after trying it out (afraid it's going to be too tame)

Just in case you guys haven't seen it at all, here's a picture of the M6 taken on her maiden voyage back in July. Not exactly a bad place to be coming from, but she deserves better, and is now getting it at a newly increased pace. I'm going to try and have her presentable by early April for Southeast Sharkfest 2005, where I hope to meet and steal the title of most powerful N/A M6 from Scott Jancura, who finished a 14 month long engine refresh and swap of an S38B38 and euro M5 six speed from Rob Levinson's M5 touring in october.

http://www.nissanx.com/gall/alb/album107/P1010012.jpg

BTW S38B38 rods I think sre 144mm , S38B36 rods are 139mm
So there are prices for S38B38 parts like headgasket and so ...
95.4mm pistons wow I thought that bigest i can fit are 95.0mm

..mine could very well drag a small army of young gold diggers across fairfield county..
:lol :lol :lol

That bad boy is really going to run. Nothing wrong with N/A....Pulling all those gold diggers with you :D You know I demand a ride :cool

BTW S38B38 rods I think sre 144mm , S38B36 rods are 139mm
So there are prices for S38B38 parts like headgasket and so ...
95.4mm pistons wow I thought that bigest i can fit are 95.0mm

Other way around. The S38B35 and B36 rods are identical at 144mm. They shortened the rods on the S38B38.

The headgasket is a custom Cometic cutting ring headgasket that's designed specifically for this application.

On the B35 block, the biggest one could go on a high comp NA app is actually 96mm, though that's really pushing it as far as material between the cylinders. 95 is the safe ceiling for turbocharged S38s. Mine's a high comp N/A car, but I still wanted a little bit of insurance, so I didn't go for the 96mm setup, knowing that if I did, I would have to deal with a worthless lump of iron if anything happened to go wrong.

That bad boy is really going to run. Nothing wrong with N/A....Pulling all those gold diggers with you :D You know I demand a ride :cool mopowa....when our cars are both finished, wanna do a quick swap? I'll need all that boost to escape that golddigger hauling powa and the mass golddigging hysteria that ensues. At least in my car, you'd have more than enough engine to bail yourself out of a sticky situation...LOL...little innuendo for ya there :P.

:wow: :wow: :wow:

Any chance of some hi-res photos of the motor? I want to make one of those my desktop :D

This looks like it's going to be "fun"...

Holy crap


I hate you


:stickoutt :buttrock

:wow: :wow: :wow:

Any chance of some hi-res photos of the motor? I want to make one of those my desktop :D

This looks like it's going to be "fun"...

Those pix were only a quick sampler. There are going to be even more pictures coming with the entire thing put together...the new pistons, the head, the cams, the whole shebangabang. When the valve cover goes back on, you all are probably going to wonder why it still looks faded and yellowed. I talked Rowe into lightening my flywheel instead of powdercoating my valve cover and intake plenum. I'm having the intake plenum powdercoated a matching cinnibar red with all of the raised portions of the valve cover (lettering, lines, etc) powdercoated white once, a la ferrari engines, once it returns to CT. When I have the throttle bodies bored to 48mm, I'm going to have the outside of the T/Bs ceramic coated. I would ideally have liked to bead blast and polish them (they're aluminum) but I don't want to have to polish the throttle bodies every time I take the car for a drive, and also by doing that the throttle bodies would absorb more heat. Ceramic coating looks beautiful and it will help keep engine bay heat out of the intake air. I'm also going to paint the block red. Some may say that it's pointless to do that because the engine can't be seen from the top of the car, but those that make such assertions obviously have never seen how an M6's motor is mounted. It's mounted at a 30 degree angle, so when I'm converted to standalone and the intake plenum, AFM and airbox are gone, the engine block is going to be quite visible. I'm not powdercoating it because 1: it's a bit pointless. 2: it's going to be really hard to powdercoat an engine that's already assembled. Jim Rowe accidently dropped his camera yesterday, so he's going out and buying a new one before he finishes the assembly, which he expects to have done late tommorow. I will stay right on their behinds about getting those pictures to me ASAP so that I can show 'em to you guys.

sorry s38b36 144mm rods
s38b38 142.5mm rods

You would know the B38 rod lengths better than I would, all I know is that they're shorter than B35/36 rods and that they're not as desireable for a high performance motor as the 144mm B35/36 rods.

"Thanks! You probably don't recall, but I actually met you at BFE...your car was there. We talked a little bit about TCD, I happened to mention offhand that I have a M6. Nice car BTW, it should be laying down some nice numbers once you go with an I/C and especially if you do tecIII."

Defacto. i am not sure but i think i do remeber you. i talked to a handful of people about my car and TCD but i specifically remember something about an m6. either way, i split my time between boston and maryland and i will be in boston for the next 3 or 4 months. so when this thing is done i def wanna come down for a day and sample this beast out!!!! and i hopefully will have some very impressive dyno sheets soon enough when i do the tec III. i spoke with vic from SIAS tuning about it and i also spoke with george about it (george would be doing the install and tuning) and it looks pretty promising. lets keep our fingers crossed for both of the projects. cant wait to see yours done!!!!!

>>I'm like JC...I'm teaching the virtues of the automotive old school to those that have lost sight... <<

Yours is an amazing car.. Dont know if you remember, but I met you at George's not too long ago.. You took the time to show me all around your car, and we discussed your plans, which were in their incipient stages at the time. The car's condition is amazing, and once its completed, its going to be a very unique example, to say the least.. Best of Luck.. I want another personal demo from you when its done :)

The timing as far as when yours would be done and when mine would be done would probably be very similar. My motor needs to be broken in on stock DME stuff before I can do standalone, there needs to be a strong foundation to use base maps on and to then tune. I have a feeling that the wiring for our cars would be very similar in terms of physical dimensions and connectors. We both need MAP setups, we both need something to eliminate our distributed spark system, and will both need a crank trigger hookup, since our engine electronics are of very similar vintage. If I do in fact decide to go TECIII (if george decides to learn the TECIII, i'll go with that) maybe we could get something together and have SIAS make us an easier wiring harness with all of the connectors we need and buy them together so we might be able to save some $$$. I think some other very powerful cars that George is responsible for are getting TECIIIs around that time as well. If we could get the numbers down on everything, that would be great. There's nothing like getting the best for less :D As far as coming down to sample the beast, she should be installed and initially set up relatively quickly, depending on when I want to release the car back to them for the install (it's in my garage right now so I can do other things to it and so it can stay inside). I'll be keeping a moving log of this car's progress, so when I mention that i'm allowed to go above 6,000 RPM (500 miles) then shoot me a PM, come on down and sample some good old fashioned naturally aspirated black magic engine wizardry....If I go to BFE and don't get some sort of recognition, especially given the fact that the new M6 will be teasing its customers around that time, I would be stunned...nobody will have seen anything like what I have in mind for this car, and I'm going to follow through on it...take this engine as a demonstration of my committment :D

Anyone who wants to check the car out once it's finished, just give me a shout! I love thrilling passengers with it...

>>I'm like JC...I'm teaching the virtues of the automotive old school to those that have lost sight... <<

Yours is an amazing car.. Dont know if you remember, but I met you at George's not too long ago.. You took the time to show me all around your car, and we discussed your plans, which were in their incipient stages at the time. The car's condition is amazing, and once its completed, its going to be a very unique example, to say the least.. Best of Luck.. I want another personal demo from you when its done :)

Paul, I have certainly not forgotten meeting you and talking with you. Needless to say, things did end up going as over the top as I had feared...lol :buttrock . You have an unlimited use pass for wild drives in the shark, seeing as certain aspects of the project probably wouldn't have come to be without your input.

Speaking of input...i've been contemplating wheels since I purchased the car, and haven't been able to decide. However, I'm almost certain what I want now. Paul, I'm not trying to cop your style or anything, but after seeing a set of polished lip, black center 17x8/17x9 Fikse FM/10s on an M635 (shown below) I nearly wet myself. I'm looking to do 18x8 in the front, 18x9 in the rear. If you wouldn't mind, could you shoot me a PM and let me know what yours ran, and what the specs are, and any helpful contact info if you can spare it. Now check this car out...it's pretty nice looking, eh?

Once this weather gets better, we've gotta hang out. No snow for either the M6 or the M5...

http://www.nissanx.com/gall/alb/album116/WOW_2.jpg

>>If you wouldn't mind, could you shoot me a PM and let me know what yours ran, and what the specs are, and any helpful contact info if you can spare it.<<

Sent! Yea, they look very good on this car I think :)

Wow...that is amazing. You are building the perfect motor for the perfect car....I wish my old 635CSi was half as nice as your M6 is going to be. Damnit, now I want an E24 again! Please keep us updated, and best of luck! You're gonna have a real beast when its done :D

Wow...that is amazing. You are building the perfect motor for the perfect car....I wish my old 635CSi was half as nice as your M6 is going to be. Damnit, now I want an E24 again! Please keep us updated, and best of luck! You're gonna have a real beast when its done :D

Thanks! Keep an eye out here, and as things develop, dyno sheets, logs, and videos...LOTS of videos...will start showing up at www.icsperformance.com. Imagine the sound of that motor when it's done...sends chills up my spine :buttrock

-Cams(this was my input/design idea): 284deg intake, 274deg exhaust cams with a variably symmetrical/asymetrical (smoothed, symmetrical profile and variable rocker arm ratio is the method) medium/high overlap (because of valvetrain strength and stiffness, overlap will remain constant throughout the rev range, making power more linear)

a little bit confused over this part
this engine uses solid lifters, you say something about rocker arm ratio?
can you enlighten me?

yeah, when the nose of the cam hits a curved rocker arm, the rocker arm ratio changes. I reckin'd that if a change in the rocker arm design, a reversal in lobe design (mirrored this time) yields all the positives of both asymmetrical and symmetrical cam designs. Smoother engagement and all the proper high-rpm behavior while retaining a normal idle and complete seals, no overlap for the lower portions of the RPM range, so torque isn't sacrificed. Rowe had been telling me something that he does with his SOHC engines to give them that dual-profile effect, I toyed around with it and figured out a way that it could be applied on DOHC S38 motors. Not exactly rocket science. The other thing that I did was calculations of the CFM this motor was going to be pushing relative to the lift and duration based on the actual profile behavior of the motor, which is why I have a 284/274 intake/exhaust setup (not really seen much) with an adjustable exhaust cam gear, but a solid cam gear for the intake. In 284/274 form, I have something that on paper is going to be my most linear option in terms of torque and HP delivery, but if that doesn't prove the case, I have the adjustable exhaust cam gear to fix it, because on these motors, the charachteristics depend entirely on the exhaust cam duration. They also enjoy some pretty wild cam setups, even something as staggered as a 284/260. This would yield significantly more torque, and it would certainly lose some top end HP, but the mid range punch of this combo is unprecedented...

yeah, when the nose of the cam hits a curved rocker arm, the rocker arm ratio changes. I reckin'd that if a change in the rocker arm design, a reversal in lobe design (mirrored this time) yields all the positives of both asymmetrical and symmetrical cam designs. Smoother engagement and all the proper high-rpm behavior while retaining a normal idle and complete seals, no overlap for the lower portions of the RPM range, so torque isn't sacrificed. Rowe had been telling me something that he does with his SOHC engines to give them that dual-profile effect, I toyed around with it and figured out a way that it could be applied on DOHC S38 motors. Not exactly rocket science. The other thing that I did was calculations of the CFM this motor was going to be pushing relative to the lift and duration based on the actual profile behavior of the motor, which is why I have a 284/274 intake/exhaust setup (not really seen much) with an adjustable exhaust cam gear, but a solid cam gear for the intake. In 284/274 form, I have something that on paper is going to be my most linear option in terms of torque and HP delivery, but if that doesn't prove the case, I have the adjustable exhaust cam gear to fix it, because on these motors, the charachteristics depend entirely on the exhaust cam duration. They also enjoy some pretty wild cam setups, even something as staggered as a 284/260. This would yield significantly more torque, and it would certainly lose some top end HP, but the mid range punch of this combo is unprecedented...
It sure as hell sounds like you know what you are talkiong about. ;)

It sure as hell sounds like you know what you are talkiong about. ;)

Nothing like doing a little bit of homework :D

yeah, when the nose of the cam hits a curved rocker arm, the rocker arm ratio changes. I reckin'd that if a change in the rocker arm design, a reversal in lobe design (mirrored this time) yields all the positives of both asymmetrical and symmetrical cam designs. Smoother engagement and all the proper high-rpm behavior while retaining a normal idle and complete seals,

yes this i understand and its ok

no overlap for the lower portions of the RPM range

how can you change overlap with rocker ratio only :confused


with an adjustable exhaust cam gear, but a solid cam gear for the intake

you mean vernier pulley or vanos?

even more confused

I have the adjustable exhaust cam gear to fix it, because on these motors, the charachteristics depend entirely on the exhaust cam duration.

how can cam gear change duration????


please explain to fool :help

yes this i understand and its ok



how can you change overlap with rocker ratio only :confused
I can change overlap with a whole host of things. The adjustable cam gear is one way for this to happen. What I did was that I proposed an idea to machine the rockers a certain way, to correspond with the cam behavior I wanted. All this results in is that I can basically have the best of both worlds in terms of power delivery with cams. The rocker and cam design are such that the overlap will be minimal at high RPM, and nonexistant if I so desire, or I could dial in some overlap...that's why I have the exhaust cam gear. Either way, I'm getting the benefits of everything. :buttrock



how can cam gear change duration????

Sorry, used the wrong word. It doesn't change duration at all. My bad.

What I did was that I proposed an idea to machine the rockers a certain way,

rockers? this engine has solid lifters?
http://tinypic.com/16t0ug

or you gonna redesign head to use rockers? you had mashining head in one pic
http://homepage.mac.com/metricmechanicinc/.Pictures/Photo%20Album%20Pictures/2005-01-05%2016.41.05%20-0800/Image-DA9C23F15F7911D9.jpg
or is it for higher lift cams?


The rocker and cam design are such that the overlap will be minimal at high RPM, and nonexistant if I so desire, or I could dial in some overlap...that's why I have the exhaust cam gear.

you mean you manually readjust cams ( vernier) or have vanos installed on exhaust?

but this engine has adjustable cam pulleys by default?or range is not enough?
http://tinypic.com/16t0y9

What I did was that I proposed an idea to machine the rockers a certain way,

if you mean lifters then it is impossible, cam turns around them when it pushes them down. ro you have to redesign head to have them fixed so they cant turn ( square hole?)
this is example pic of m50 hydraulic lifters but design is the same, only your engine lifters are solid

http://tinypic.com/16t1cp

how can you reprofile them if they turn?

http://homepage.mac.com/metricmechanicinc/PhotoAlbum1.html

is it your engine photos in first post?

it says:
"Images of MM HiFlo ST 3900 Rally for Matt Ivanhoe"

http://homepage.mac.com/metricmechanicinc/PhotoAlbum1.html

is it your engine photos in first post?

it says:
"Images of MM HiFlo ST 3900 Rally for Matt Ivanhoe"

That's my motor...thus where the pictures are linked from. I hope you didn't think I was actually building it, because I didn't mean to imply that in any way. I merely threw around an idea for a cam design that I came up with that Jim Rowe incorporated, I'm not an engineer, nor do I profess to be one. I'm merely an enthusiast using some common sense. He's the guy with the skills to make it happen. He was saying something aboutr rocker arms, but you do make a valid point that the car doesn't appear to use rockers of any kind. Either Rowe had a brain fart and was talking about rockers, or I was temporarily thinking about a different motor. Either way, you are absolutely correct, it is a solid lifter design, and it was the lifter design that was in fact modified. The stock cam gears are not adjustable. That is why a common upgrade for normal S38 motors is a retarded exhauist cam gear from the EVOII S14 motor. It basically keeps the same top end power number while increasing midrange torque.

ok but it really made me suspicious: Images of MM HiFlo ST 3900 Rally for Matt Ivanhoe"

What is suspicious about that? Those are metric mechanic photos...i'm matt ivanhoe...i said that they were doing it in my first post...what was at all suspicious?

ok maybe i was wrong, i apologize. nothing said that it goes on 600 series, just on rally car :confused

ok maybe i was wrong, i apologize. nothing said that it goes on 600 series, just on rally car :confused

That's just Jim's marketing mumbo jumbo...rally isn't even spelled properly (based on your assumptions)...notice 'rallye'...

Got off the phone with Jim, he's taking pictures of it as he's putting the final bits and pieces together. I should have pictures and captions for you guys ASAP....

Matt,

I cannot wait to see the results! Can we set up a match race between your M6 and one of our S2 cars with a lowly stock m30 motor and crappy Motronic, AFM and FMU?

I think I know what's going to happen! :)

Todd

Matt,

I cannot wait to see the results! Can we set up a match race between your M6 and one of our S2 cars with a lowly stock m30 motor and crappy Motronic, AFM and FMU?

I think I know what's going to happen! :)

Todd

Do you have a premoniton of sorts about the outcome? Miss Cleo give you some info for me? Who's going to win, mon?

LOL!

Thanks Todd, and hope that the move went well. As far as a race, that could work...provided both cars are running pump gas and you aren't using any cheap shots (WI, N20 LN2 and the like) Your S2 setup with some heavy duty tuning will make some nice numbers...the race could prove intersting...

Wow awesome project you have decided to undertake Matt! Thanks for keeping us updated as well. I can only imagine the power and SOUND that this engine is going to produce. Hopefully I can hear it sometime soon in person once it's completed. Another insane project from ICS and MM :) . Stunning car by the way..

Wow awesome project you have decided to undertake Matt! Thanks for keeping us updated as well. I can only imagine the power and SOUND that this engine is going to produce. Hopefully I can hear it sometime soon in person once it's completed. Another insane project from ICS and MM :) . Stunning car by the way..

Thanks! Yeah, I can only guess how unbelieveably wild this thing is going to sound...when it's in, come down for a ride so you can hear and see it for real :D

I'll be watching this carefully. Major props on undertaking the S38 project. It takes a lot of money to make something like this come together.
I commend you on your determination to make a Ultimate S38.
You can be the blueprint for other guys like me who love the old stuff, and want to make these cars go fast. Please keep us posted here. I'd love to do a milder version of your engine in a year or so. :D

I'll be watching this carefully. Major props on undertaking the S38 project. It takes a lot of money to make something like this come together.
I commend you on your determination to make a Ultimate S38.
You can be the blueprint for other guys like me who love the old stuff, and want to make these cars go fast. Please keep us posted here. I'd love to do a milder version of your engine in a year or so. :D

To those that are as insane as me, doing an S38 like this is totally logical :D
Thanks again, gorgeous car (I WANT ONE!!!), and if you have any questions about what i'm up to, don't hesitate to give me a shout. I've researched pretty much every angle available for these engines, so don't hesitate to capitalize on my research! Oh...would you care to donate your S38B36 throttle bodies and intake runners to the cause? LOL...i'm looking for some :D
I'll find some soon enough, and I'll keep you all posted how it goes down :D

more pics and info http://bimmerforums.com/forum/newreply.php

Quick correction:

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=301825

check it out and let me know what you all think...

Outstanding!!!
This project makes me so happy. :redspot

Keep up the great reports. :D

Outstanding!!!
This project makes me so happy. :redspot

Keep up the great reports. :D

Glad I can lift your spirits, methinks I'll soon have some more developments...just stay tuned:D

titties! I'm just starting to work on my 1988 M6... how does MM get those 90mm cranks?