Is it possible to put a 7 series V12 into an M5?

Is it possible to put a 7 series V12 into an M5?

E34 and E39, yes.

Brett @ KMS (http://www.koalamotorsport.com, 440-564-7574) has the experience.

- Rob

holy shit, i wanna do that

how much do you think it would run to put a v12 engine in a 1998 540iA????

how much do you think it would run to put a v12 engine in a 1998 540iA????

someone will inevitably answer with, "if you have to ask, it's too much for you."

and in this case it would be quite costly :cool putting a V12 in place of the M62 would not give large gains and is a less commonly worked with motor in terms of performace.

can i ask why either of you want to do this?

turning a v8 into a v12??? why WOULDNT you (besides cost) want to do this???

turning a v8 into a v12??? why WOULDNT you (besides cost) want to do this???
How much heavier is the V12 than the V8? Extra weight over the front wheels = :nono

how much hp does a V12 push out anyway? dudes im gonna do it. A V12 M5 holy smokes. Gumball 3000 here i come

there are a few threads about this.... IIRC the cars to use are either a 525i (whichever front end you like better) or, ideally, a blown 530i... from a cost standpoint, a 540i is too valuable (sell it and get a blown 530i, use leftover $$$ for the engine/transmission).

this is all re: the E34, the E39 is supposed to be easier, but the car is LOT more money, you can get a blown 530 for less than 5K in PRISTINE condition.

I REALLY want to do this with an E34, they are soo pimp when they are well done....

and a V12 M5 would be slower... either E34 or E39 than the car you could build witht even half the money if you leave the original engine.... you could easily get into a 3.8 stroker S38, or a Dinan M5......

if you care THAT much.... buy a badge.

buy a badge.

badges???.... we don't need no stinkin' badges!!! :D

turning a v8 into a v12??? why WOULDNT you (besides cost) want to do this???

hmm, its pretty simple:

v12 weighs more than the v8
v12 costs more initially than the v8
v12 costs more in maintenance than the v8
LABOR!!!
v12 harder to source than v8
v12 only makes 325 hp compared with 282 hp m62 v8 AND the S62 E39 M5 V8 makes near 400hp.

*edit* E34 M5 made 310 horsepower from it's 6 banger.

this last point (and i know i've left a lot of things out) is easily overcome with a few modifications to the m62. more cylinders doesn't automatically mean more power. you do your V12 swap and i'll swap in a built and forced M42 (4cyl) and whoop your ass; and i bet it would cost less for me.

now i ask you, why would you want to use a V12?

the only answer i can see is to be one of the few E39s with a V12. let me be the first to congratulate you! :alright

badges???.... we don't need no stinkin' badges!!! :D:rofl

im sure 12 cylinders tweaked like the M5 8 cylinders could do some unrepairable damage to your ego.

im sure 12 cylinders tweaked like the M5 8 cylinders could do some unrepairable damage to your ego.

there is little to no aftermarket support for the v12.

I dont mean turbos or stuff like that. there are plenty fast NA 12 cylinders out there, need i mention any names. im sure it can be done, and when i do it, any challenges are welcome.

I dont mean turbos or stuff like that. there are plenty fast 12 cylinders out there, need i mentions any names. im sure it can be done, and when i do it, any challenges are welcome.

please name names of fast BMW V12s. and you can leave "Baby" off the list, we all know of her.

have fun with this fully custom machine you're building. can i have a ride?

plus, the displacement increase is marginal. The largest 6 cyl was 3.8L in the e34 m5, meanwhile, the largest v8 so far is the 5.0L in the e39 M5. (if i'm not mistaken) This means for a measly 2 cylinders, the increase in displacement is more than 25%. Meanwhile, the increase in displacement between the v8 and the v12 isn't nearly as great. Thusly, the power gains would be marginal when compared to the increase from a 6 to an 8, not to mention the cantankerous nature of v12s.

In terms of cost, the change from a tuned 8 to a tuned 12 would be like comparing a watch to an atomic clock. v12 support is minimal in the entire industry, much less from BMW aftermarket. Everything would have to be custom, plus the amount of research and development needed to tune it to the same degree as the s62 would be astronomical.

just my meager bit.

6.0 L

Engine horsepower 438hp @ 6,000RPM

Engine torque 444ft.lbs. @ 3,950RPM

Engine bore x stroke 89.0mm x 80.0mm (3.50" x 3.15")

Compression ratio 11.30 : 1

not bad if i do say so myself. and a 7 series weighs a couple of tons bro(4,762lbs), and can do 5.4 sec. this engine could carry a 5 series pretty quick.

Remember that black E34 w/ the 12 in it?
The guy was trying to sell it for a while. It was on flea-bay too.
I never saw what it went for. Anyone know?
I thought it was a pretty nice car.

6.0 L

Engine horsepower 438hp @ 6,000RPM

Engine torque 444ft.lbs. @ 3,950RPM

Engine bore x stroke 89.0mm x 80.0mm (3.50" x 3.15")

Compression ratio 11.30 : 1

not bad if i do say so myself. and a 7 series weighs a couple of tons bro(4,762lbs), and can do 5.4 sec. this engine could carry a 5 series pretty quick.


dang, those are some impressive numbers! who built that monster? what is it in? reliability and support? cost?



Dan, i remember that now too. not sure what happened to it.

this motor is from your friendly neighborhood BMW dealer. dont know how much it costs though. a 1999 M3 engine brand new is 10,000from the dealer take a guess. you can buy it though, if the money is there and granted the engine fits, this my friend could quite possibly be a scary M5.

the new 6L V12 is in no way comparable, in price or otherwise, to the S52 which was developed nearly 10 years ago. so you buy a motor for 10 grand; not a new 6L V12 though. you still have an electronics nightmare. this is turning into a joke.

and why would you call this an M5? its far from a well thought out, equally balanced DESIGNED M5.

go ahead and prove me wrong...please...i beg you!

v12 doesn't weigh much more than the v8, should be within 100lbs
v12 (M70) are dirt cheap and easy to source
v12 electronics are simpler than the v8 with no vanos or dohc
v12 (M70) makes 330-350 ft/lbs of torque, the S70 makes 380hp and 400 ft/lbs
v12 sounds way better than the v8
v12 runs smoother than the v8
v12 is shorter than the v8 for placement further back in the engine bay
v12 is reliable and bullet proof with proper maintenance

Hartge I believe used to do an e39 with a tuned s70 engine so it has been done. That said, I'd rather have an m5 engine (S62 or S38) than the old v12's and rather have the v12 than the v8...

v12 doesn't weigh much more than the v8, should be within 100lbs
v12 (M70) are dirt cheap and easy to source
v12 electronics are simpler than the v8 with no vanos or dohc
v12 (M70) makes 330-350 ft/lbs of torque, the S70 makes 380hp and 400 ft/lbs
v12 sounds way better than the v8
v12 runs smoother than the v8
v12 is shorter than the v8 for placement further back in the engine bay
v12 is reliable and bullet proof with proper maintenance

Hartge I believe used to do an e39 with a tuned s70 engine so it has been done. That said, I'd rather have an m5 engine (S62 or S38) than the old v12's and rather have the v12 than the v8...


how much for an M70? S70?
what do you mean by the v12 runs smoother?
Hamann was putting M70/S70s in E39s that i know of. thank you for providing some real info as opposed to just saying it would be really cool to do.

anyway, thank you all for you 2 cents. there were SOME interesting insights to this , shall we say, proposal. It still would be pretty darn cool to have a V12 in a 5 ser. :buttrock

how much for an M70? S70?
what do you mean by the v12 runs smoother?
Hamann was putting M70/S70s in E39s that i know of. thank you for providing some real info as opposed to just saying it would be really cool to do.

The inline six is the smoothest of engine designs, it's complicated to explain. A v12 is 2 inline six's, ie, twice as many fires, making it smoother. The v8 is 2 inline 4's put together, which is the least smooth engine design. The v8 is also the least responsive engine design. (The new m3 should be an exception along with ferraris, if it is the new m5 engine with 2 cylinders hacked off, it will be flat plane, and will be quick reving.)

The s70 is an s engine, therefore expensive as heck compared to other bmw engines. The m70 has 2 valves per cylinder, and from what I can see is basically 2 m20s welded together. Not to say it's bad, it's just that the s38 is just a better idea as far as I'm concerned (ie, stick with the regular m5 engine). I've heard of N/A s38s with near 400 rwhp.

now i ask you, why would you want to use a V12?

Hmmm... it's safe to assume you haven't driven a 750?

With just a few tweaks (more coming very soon), and the engine hasn't even been opened, there's a compelling reason why the M73 is a viable alternative to a "built" M62:

http://www.robertlevinson.com/seven/take_a_look/images/DYNO_98_750-6_vs_2K_M5.jpg

So there's your answer as to why I'd want to use a V12.

More details (but not all the secrets):
http://www.robertlevinson.com/seven/

- Rob

P.S. Yes, in the back of my mind, I've planning to put together an E39 SportWagon with an even more-potent M73 V12/6-speed. All nice and clean, no CE lights, fully emissions and OBD-II legal.

- Rob

P.S. Yes, in the back of my mind, I've planning to put together an E39 SportWagon with an even more-potent M73 V12/6-speed. All nice and clean, no CE lights, fully emissions and OBD-II legal.

- Rob


looking for a sport to source that with... trying to sell my 540iT 99 w/80k


all reasonable offers considered

P.S. Yes, in the back of my mind, I've planning to put together an E39 SportWagon with an even more-potent M73 V12/6-speed. All nice and clean, no CE lights, fully emissions and OBD-II legal.

- Rob

Have you put a 6spdV12 in a E39 Before? I was thinking about doing it. I wanna put a V12 into a E39 M5, match it up with a 6spd manual, and eat other M5's on the expressway :buttrock

I will try and make a case for the 4.4L V8.Much lighter than V12 and is also lighter than 3.0/3.2L M3 engines.Much easier to work on than V12.And with simple 6 psi supercharged=350 rwhp,which is better than M5.Did I mention balance/weight distribution?I have worked for a BMW shop and a BMW dealership.When the V12 came in for service/repair we used to bet how much more our commission checks would increase by.

I will try and make a case for the 4.4L V8.Much lighter than V12 and is also lighter than 3.0/3.2L M3 engines.Much easier to work on than V12.And with simple 6 psi supercharged=350 rwhp,which is better than M5.Did I mention balance/weight distribution?I have worked for a BMW shop and a BMW dealership.When the V12 came in for service/repair we used to bet how much more our commission checks would increase by.

The V8 is not that much lighter than the V12. 100lbs maybe, 120 atmost 150 not even.

Have you put a 6spdV12 in a E39 Before?

It's been done before.

I wanna put a V12 into a E39 M5, match it up with a 6spd manual, and eat other M5's on the expressway :buttrock

In all reality, it wouldn't make sense to start with the M5. Unless you find one with a blown engine, it's worth too much to strip out. Makes more sense to start with a 540i/530i, put in the V12, and upgrade the brakes and suspension.

- Rob

I think everyone is missing the point.
V12's are just orgasmic engines. The old V12 might be a pina with valve adjsutments and the like, throttle by wire, buts its osmething id love to play with. That said, it sounds like an incredibly expensive rpject, Id rather an m70 in a 525iT..thats somtheing I could afford to actually build, balck, with M-ps and nice exhaust, I am sure it would be rediculously fast. You could also get thebrakes of the v12 e32 donor car


Which brings one MORE question, if you arent like Mr. LEvinson and me, and dont care for a Touring, why not just buy a super claena e32 and put a manual in it and some custom body work, and call it a day?

Here is a place that sells all the engines, and they sell a performance model of the V12 as well. Looks like under 15k for the one from a 94-96 850CSI.

Now c'mon guys, we all have the Tim the Tool Man Taylor attitude. I want to see him do it, and I want a ride! :alright

http://www.bmrparts.com/engine1a.htm

Rob, my question is... wouldn't it be easier to just graft a hatchback on a 6-speed V12 7? :D


An E39 550iT/6 would be really sweet. :)

Rob, my question is... wouldn't it be easier to just graft a hatchback on a 6-speed V12 7? :D

No... because I hate paintwork. :)

- Rob

I have an M5 already, but i need something outrageous to enter the gumball 3000 rally with. "Outrageous?" you say, what more outrageous than a V12 in a E39. I better get started if I wanna make it for May 05 :redspot

It's been done before.



In all reality, it wouldn't make sense to start with the M5. Unless you find one with a blown engine, it's worth too much to strip out. Makes more sense to start with a 540i/530i, put in the V12, and upgrade the brakes and suspension.

- Rob

I have an M5 already.I need something outrageous to enter the gumball 3000 rally with. "Outrageous?" you say, whats more outrageous than a V12 in a E39. I better get started if I wanna make it for May 05 :redspot
Or how about increasing the displacement in the V-8 to 6L. a 6L V-8 that sounds awesome too :buttrock

Go to Discovery Motors(supercharged here) and see some supercharged E39 M5's at 600-800 hp.And check out their 'eyecandy' :redspot

Just a side note:

Has anyone heard of or had experience with deleting the damned $1200 dollar a piece throttle motors on the early m70 models?

I am seriously considering turning my road race car into a NA car: easier to get into sanctions, and I found somewhere i have it saved, a 400 horse m70 blueprint.

However, I dont really want the throttles.

FAST, TECH, and custom MOTRONIX have all capability to run a v12, but Id like to use the stock controller. But it would be damn expensive.

I love Ferraris, but cant afford the ones I want, we're looking at getting my kids out of the house first...so I thought about building my already hig strung hardtop into something with the spirit of Ferrar, qand a v12 would do. Since road speed and control is my main concern, and not drag racing, Im thinking 400 horses will push it to around 180 or more. I went a verified 157 in a 317 rwhp LS1, my 84 is smoother. With the engine, trans, and driveshaft out of her, she weighs in at 2000 pounds even. I could be looking at a rare 3000 pound fully loaded car.

anyway, the other option wasa turbo 302 and six speed.

I imagine Levinson has the capability to make a t56 work on an m70?

Go to Discovery Motors(supercharged here) and see some supercharged E39 M5's at 600-800 hp.And check out their 'eyecandy' :redspot

whats their website info???

v12 electronics are simpler than the v8 with no vanos or dohc...................v12 runs smoother than the v8
v12 is shorter than the v8 for placement further back in the engine bay...

So I guess this means it's easier to install a V12 in a 540i, compared to replacing the factory motor with another V8? Simpler electronics must allow you to pitch the wiring harnesses into the trash! Maybe the V12 has a carb and HEI distributor, so we only have to deal with one wire for the oil sending unit?? Yea, sounds like an evening job.

I never noticed my BMW, Cadillac or Lincoln Town Car V8's running rough.

And.....the V12 is shorter! Maybe this is a W12?

Great reasoning, in support of a 5er basket case.

So I guess this means it's easier to install a V12 in a 540i, compared to replacing the factory motor with another V8? Simpler electronics must allow you to pitch the wiring harnesses into the trash! Maybe the V12 has a carb and HEI distributor, so we only have to deal with one wire for the oil sending unit?? Yea, sounds like an evening job.

I never noticed my BMW, Cadillac or Lincoln Town Car V8's running rough.

And.....the V12 is shorter! Maybe this is a W12?

Great reasoning, in support of a 5er basket case.

Cliff notes: He thinks its crazy :eyecrazy

Here's the 411

The V12 is about the same weight as the V8. A little heavier. It is a 60 degree V where as the V8 is a 90 degree V. The V12 has plenty of aftermarket support. Cams, custom stroker cranks, extrude hone, turbo kit. Motronix Motorsport in Canada did a dual Vortech 850i.

I was going to do this V12 E34 conversion before I bought my Dinan 5. I have seen 3 E34's, I have photos of all of them, with V12's. The Ebay car, originally a 535i auto. A car in Norway with a 5.0 V12 and automatic. The third was sold on Willz.ca it was an M5 with an 850csi engine. There is also the old Racing Dynamics K55 E34 sedan and wagon with a V12. They also put that in an E39. After speaking with an recent graduate in mechanical engineering, we determined that it would be difficult to decide which engine is better if both were built NA. The V8 has an M50 style head. The V12 has an M20 style head. The M50 flows 150% more air than an M20. But you cant get over 5.0 liters. Even if the V12 is more powerful its an aging design. My father found a way to use a wiring harness from a different motor on the V12 that would allow you to get rid of the electric throttle and expensive porcelin wraped spark plug wires.

Without buying a custom crankshaft or buying an 850csi motor, the max displacement of the V12 would be just over 5.4 liter. The 4.4 V8 can be brought to 4.7 or 4.8 with an M5 crankshaft.(a few thousand for a reman) Both of these motors with cams, custom pistons, and headwork would yield in the high 300 hp to 400hp range. The V12 will be up on torque. Both can turn about the same RPM.

There are less than 20,000 vehicles produced anually in the world that have V12 engines. Unfortunately the M70 is getting old. That why I chose a blown 540i. 6th is deadly on the highway. You dont have to downshift to pass. It'll keep pace with 400 hp cars on the highway.

Do you have pictures? And has anyopne ever put M50 heads (I realize you have to turn the cams aorund, custom work) on the v12? Wasnt the CSI a dohc motor?
Pics?

please name names of fast BMW V12s. and you can leave "Baby" off the list, we all know of her.

have fun with this fully custom machine you're building. can i have a ride?
I dunno if it has been said yet as I only read the first page. But don't we all know the McLaren F1 is powered by a BMW V12?

Cliff notes: He thinks its crazy :eyecrazy

Well......the argument put forth is surely questionable:

1) I would not use the word "simple" to describe BMW V12 EFI engine electronics or retrofit.

2) Engine smoothness is hardly the racer or hot rodders dream. A Bentley limo owner may care, I don't know. If a V8 is smooth enough for a Cadillac, it should satisfy most gearheads.

3) I think the V12 is longer than a V8.

I think the v12 is for the sake of a v12. We all know you can put an Ls1 in an e30, now e34's, e39's are sure to follow as people chase more and more power. LS1's will do 450 NA hp, 600 hp is cake with superchargers, and HP has seen over a 1000 with biturbos., the cost of a biturbo LS1 is probably less than an na 4.4-4.8

So in another words: M70-S70=Cool factor only

The CSI motor has hotter cams, different crank and pistons. The McLaren motor is a varient of the S70. It has basically a 6.0 liter M70 block with Euro S52 heads bi vanos. This head should fit on the right bank of an M70 without too many mods. But you would only have a head for the one side.

If I could put any BMW motor in a 5 series it would be a 5.0 M62 stroker with custom forged pistons, oversized intake valves, cams, dry sump, Motec and dual Rotrex blowers. Should be good for 600hp.

The CSI motor has hotter cams, different crank and pistons. The McLaren motor is a varient of the S70. It has basically a 6.0 liter M70 block with Euro S52 heads bi vanos. This head should fit on the right bank of an M70 without too many mods. But you would only have a head for the one side.

If I could put any BMW motor in a 5 series it would be a 5.0 M62 stroker with custom forged pistons, oversized intake valves, cams, dry sump, Motec and dual Rotrex blowers. Should be good for 600hp.
I would turbo it or go twin screw for 800 hp. :buttrock

The CSI motor has hotter cams, different crank and pistons. The McLaren motor is a varient of the S70. It has basically a 6.0 liter M70 block with Euro S52 heads bi vanos. This head should fit on the right bank of an M70 without too many mods. But you would only have a head for the one side.


Not really. The McLaren F1 motor has very little relationship to basic M70 design. It's closer to two S52B30 engines put together, sharing some of that architecture and the VANOS technology.

But in all reality, it's got very little replationship to either one, all parts being so developed and removed from standard BMW-spec components that the difference is like a mortal man fantasizing he could be born on Krypton and strengthened under Earth's yellow sun and start flying around.

There's no "just bolt on the F1 parts" possibilities... but it's a good laugh when suggested!

- Rob

Just a side note:

Has anyone heard of or had experience with deleting the damned $1200 dollar a piece throttle motors on the early m70 models?

Conventional TBs with standard cable-type actuation have been done on project M70 conversions... at that point you're not using the OE engine management any more. It's not practical or economical as a "fix" for a regular E32 750.

But if you're building a race chassis, then by all means! TB adapter plates using any standard TB would be extremely easy to make.


I imagine Levinson has the capability to make a t56 work on an m70?

Yes, but the transmission tunnel in the stock chassis won't clear, so it's mostly a discussion for a race chassis. Plus, the gear ratios are very different, the final drive you would have to use would not be a BMW part (or would be a very expensive special-order Motorsport part).

- Rob

So which six speed did yuou use?

Levinson, I would give my right nut(okay, thats a bit extreme) to have an efternoon's conversation with you. Do you by any chance attend AETC in Colorado Springs?

what about the v12 swap into a 3 series? I have a 318is that is pathetically slow. I believe the 60 degree design would suit the narrow engine compartment

Ive seen pictures of e30's with v12's

Ive seen pictures of e30's with v12's
I've seen a video of a viper engine on a bike. ;)