final results

http://ww2.scca.com/soloresults.php?ID=25

man, e36 m3's are in 1-6th place!!!

Vic Sias takes the title. A lot of boardmembers take trophies! :redspot

In addition, a 94 BMW 325is takes the STX title! Way to womp the Subies. :buttrock

Congrats to all to participated.

In addition, a 94 BMW 325is takes the STX title! Way to womp the Subies.

Unfortunately the SCCA screwed up the results and Karl got 5th, not 1st like their website says. Had it not rained the 2nd day, i think Karl could have gotten 1st place :buttrock

Congrats to Vic and all the trophy winners. It was great fun watching you all kick ass and have fun doing it. SM is getting pretty scary!!! I can't imagine what people will be bringing to Nationals next year...

Congrat to Vic Sias and Siastuning for a great showing :clap:

1st, National Solo
1st, ProSolo Finale
1st, Honda Street Challenge

Vacation is over, time to tune some cars! ;)

NorCal :buttrock

It certainly was a blast. :) One day I'll be able to put 2 good days together and get better then a 16th spot. :(.

Congrats to everyone.

Hey vjlax18, great showing at Nats.

Good job in a tough field!!

Thanks guys...

BTW John, I have more stickerzzzz now, although the sticker-charging didn't really do anything for extra power. :dunno

wow, apparently the M3 is the car to have in SM this year. Great job guys :redspot

Great job guys ... especially to John D. and Eric W. Amazing results for your first nationals! I am sure there are some big changes to come from the DMG garage this winter! :buttrock

Now that you are back ... you have to help us 'slower' guys become faster now :stickoutt

Looks like the E46 was NOT the car to run in ASP :help ... next year, we'll see ...

Actually... 1st nationals in SM :) Last year I ran BS.

The M3s did great, but our rain dance didnt work... those Hoosier wets would have been REAL nice!

Although I drove like ass, it was a blast as usual. The people are great and its just an awesome experience. And Tunnel is such a nice guy to talk to! He even came by and wished everyone in SM luck w/ a handshake before our runs started. :buttrock

Sucks Erik Lind couldnt finish his runs... he'd hav ebeen way higher in the standings.... :(

Congrats to everyone, way to show them how BMW's kick ass. :D

Almost forgot - big big props and congratulations to Ryan Carag, who finished 5th in a tight class. Ryan has added lightness to his '99 M3, but still has stock fenders. Very impressive finish given the level of prep of that car.

:buttrock

Almost forgot - big big props and congratulations to Ryan Carag, who finished 5th in a tight class.

And he's a heck of a good guy. When I needed a car to finish out the ProSolo Finale, Ryan offered his car up without hesitation. :drink1

I just wish I could have found a bit more speed, but with only four runs in his car -- and the first two being dirty -- I never really reached any kind of comfort zone. I guess Ryan found that zone on Tuesday/Wednesday. :cool

And he's a heck of a good guy. When I needed a car to finish out the ProSolo Finale, Ryan offered his car up without hesitation. :drink1

I just wish I could have found a bit more speed, but with only four runs in his car -- and the first two being dirty -- I never really reached any kind of comfort zone. I guess Ryan found that zone on Tuesday/Wednesday. :cool

Agreed. He was in town for the DC National Tour and ProSolo, and it was a great time racing against him (we were both borrowing BSP cars). I'm hoping he comes back next year and that we'll have time to just hang out.

If he does come out, he may be driving my car... and I may be flying to Cali to drive his. :) I didn't get a chance to take pictures with out cars together but it was cool to see 2 silver M3's next to each other all week.

It was great to meet everyone, i had a blast :D
A couple picks for ya
http://members.cox.net/malieb/nats/DSC_0523.jpg http://members.cox.net/malieb/nats/DSC_0505.jpg http://members.cox.net/malieb/nats/DSC_0497.jpg http://members.cox.net/malieb/nats/DSC_0473.jpg http://members.cox.net/malieb/nats/DSC_0338.jpg http://members.cox.net/malieb/nats/DSC_0296.jpg http://members.cox.net/malieb/nats/DSC_0293.jpg

congrats to Doby, Eric and the others...good to see you guys are having so much fun and doing well! Nice to see some MD/DC/VA competing out there....and congrats to Vic for the win and Bob T for the runner up...great job :)

Nice pics Lieb. I especially like # 2 & 4, 'cuz it ME. :buttrock

Just got home from the 30ish hour drive! :eyecrazy

It was nice meeting all of you out there. Definitely had a blast and looking forward to it next year.

SWEET pics!!! I wish i could've made it this year. Next year... next year (been saying that for the past 4 years! :stickoutt )

Bob T has a little too much daylight showing under his inside tires !

http://members.cox.net/malieb/nats/DSC_0338.jpg

I did not go through each class, but did AM have the fastest time overall?

Looks like UTA swept FSAE...

Congrats to VIC...Awesome!

Just got home from the 30ish hour drive! :eyecrazy

It was nice meeting all of you out there. Definitely had a blast and looking forward to it next year.

sorry didn't catch ya guys in denver. just got back sorta. the car didn't make it back tho. :( it's at a weigh station about 70 miles outta seattle with a hole in the block. :( damn thing just up and 187ed itself while sitting on cruise control. :dunno anyone got an s54 sitting around? almost got away with "keeping it on the street where it belongs". ;)

my 1st time at nationals and it was awesome! congrats again to vic and bob and everyone else for a good show! even the honda guys. ;) what a battle! the finish was very emotional and very touching... just shows what good guys we are in sm! ;)

the antics were too much! \\WESTSIDE epidemic. :) support vehicles. lieb, how is it that within 3 seconds of us meeting each other, we are almost on our way to jail? stage diving with fraser. oh scotty fray, thanks for the birfday "bash"... and no thanks ya bastage! ;) to gary/rich/etc who was there: zip it! :D

too much fun. gotta go sleep then go get this blown up car later. cya.

I just wish I could have found a bit more speed, but with only four runs in his car -- and the first two being dirty -- I never really reached any kind of comfort zone. I guess Ryan found that zone on Tuesday/Wednesday. :cool

lol, yah the setup at the pro solo finale was a disaster. sorry i couldn't give ya something better. we had to go through i think 3 different setups after that at the test n tune before we found something that worked. just fundamental stuff to deal with the bumps, but it really helped. :D

Ryan, sorry to hear about your car... hope it gets back and running soon!

Great runnign and nice seeing you again! Did you guys end up finding a club to goto?

Wow Ryan, sorry to hear about the car. If you need anything from the eastside boys let us know.

even the honda guys. ;)

I think I'll leave that Chris Travis applied "Honda" sticker on my rear window until next year. :biglaughb

sorry didn't catch ya guys in denver. just got back sorta. the car didn't make it back tho. :( it's at a weigh station about 70 miles outta seattle with a hole in the block. :( damn thing just up and 187ed itself while sitting on cruise control. :dunno anyone got an s54 sitting around? almost got away with "keeping it on the street where it belongs". ;)

No worries, Erik and I were tyring to make time so we didn't stay long.

:eek: Sucks to hear about the car, especially when you were so close to home. Maybe you can just do some crazy motor swap in this car rather than get another.

Wow Ryan, sorry to hear about the car. If you need anything from the eastside boys let us know.

yah it kinda sucks. the motors in these silver m3s are cursed. first john in houston then you now me. i may take you up on that and ask for some hookups for wiring diagrams from an s54 m-roadster. ;)

No worries, Erik and I were tyring to make time so we didn't stay long.

:eek: Sucks to hear about the car, especially when you were so close to home. Maybe you can just do some crazy motor swap in this car rather than get another.

i herd ya'll were having some turbo probs?

yah i think i'll be silver car with polished doors guy for awhile. we'll see what motor, but i think a factory-obd2 smoggable s54 would be trick.

i guess no beater 95 now... i'll just turn this perfectly good 99 into a beater. :( after all the crap that happened to it in topeka with the fender and the windshield and hood, it's already half way there anyway. :D damn... and so many flood damage cars in lake floridia right now!!!

jerold is going to get the car right now. we'll take a looksie sometime later today then i think it's time for a break before building again!!!

meanwhile i will go and pass out again. :)

Hey guys, just getting back online. Sorry to hear about the car Ryan, damn! Turns out the truckster is fine, just starving a little at 11000 feet! Perfectly normal as it came down to sea level.

AWESOME time this week meeting all you guys.

Big congrats to Vic and the other top 10 Drivers, especially to my co-driver who took home 6th in a car with arguably the worst power to weight ratio in the field. I figured out why I sucked so bad this week....forgot to wait for the "pop" sound of my head exiting my ass before running...Oh well, that's what next year...and a whole lot more power...are for!

Hey guys, just getting back online. Sorry to hear about the car Ryan, damn! Turns out the truckster is fine, just starving a little at 11000 feet! Perfectly normal as it came down to sea level.

AWESOME time this week meeting all you guys.

Big congrats to Vic and the other top 10 Drivers, especially to my co-driver who took home 6th in a car with arguably the worst power to weight ratio in the field. I figured out why I sucked so bad this week....forgot to wait for the "pop" sound of my head exiting my ass before running...Oh well, that's what next year...and a whole lot more power...are for!

Not sure about that, I weighed in at 2913 lbs with over 1/4 tank of gas :(

looks like it threw the #6 rod. there is a hole on the intake side of the motor right by the starter about half as big as the starter. :(

oh well, i'll just let the car chill there for a few weeks. wanna take a break before thinking about this...

anyone see a wrecked s54 m-coupe, lemme know. :D

DAMN man, that totally sucks! Shoot me a pic of the deceased. I will let you know if I come across another motor.

Michael...IIRC, you were making 240hp/250tq to the wheels, correct? I am at 227/212, though I am at 2720 with a 1/4 tank. So we are pretty close HP wise, but you are beating my in TQ by a bunch. The big guns (Vic and Tunnel) and those damned civics (260hp, light as a feather) are killer.

Not for long...not for long.. :evil2

Here is a couple more pics. You guys are welcome to use them too
http://members.cox.net/malieb/nats/nats2/DSC_0114.jpg
http://members.cox.net/malieb/nats/nats2/DSC_0529.jpg
http://members.cox.net/michael-lieberman/DSC_0481.jpg

in car vid Here (http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2870844#post2870844)

95 mpwr, are your flares crooked?

If by "crooked" you mean "bad reiger reproductions held on with just 3 sheet metal screws" then you are correct sir. They were pretty ghetto when I got them and they are meant to be molded into the body by a skilled craftsman. But hey, they look great in pictures from 20 feet away at 20 mph or more.

Look for a new, bigger, badder flare setup next year. In a crazy new color. Dayem, I think I soiled myself with excitement!

lol. too funny.

uh oh it's the new red

Ryan, you MUST be talking about Orange...

It was great to work course and watch all the SM Bimmers run! Congrats to all the trophy people, especially to Vic Sias of Siastuning for taking home the big trophy.

I was asleep on my dads couch when you called at 430am, I guess you made it home ok. So what was top speed on the way home, or should I even ask at what speed was the cruise control set?

It was cool to party with the WA crew, I think the waiter had a crush on you and tony (damn forgot his handle).

Later,
Scott Fraser
(this year, sm2 #93)

So what was top speed on the way home, or should I even ask at what speed was the cruise control set?


holy ish, it was at 87 when it went! an no top speed antics on the way back. i'm serious. motor said, uff you and that 87, i'ma 187 on myself right about now! :( that's some twilight zone ish i tell ya!

:menani

anyway, back on topic... AWESOME JOB VIC! thanks bob! gary, I almost had ya man. ;) wait, i never had you. i never had my motor.... :( holy crappolla jeff is FAST! erik, i think ye found yer ringer... rich is HELLA fast in that thang.

oh edit:
mister fraser here also forgot to mention he got 3rd in SM2! booyah!

forgot to wait for the "pop" sound of my head exiting my ass before running

LOL! That's exactly how I felt! I drove like $hit the 1st day! First 2 runs were dirty, and trying to take it easy on my 3rd and last run I missed 3rd gear and almost went into 1st! But I managed to get a clean but slow run, it got a little better the next day... that's what happens when you don't autox much before you go to a big event like Nats! Next year I'll have plenty of seat time before going up there, unless we get another crazy hurricane season like this year's!

I was lucky to work when SM was running, lots of fun watching you guys, specially Bob and Vic, and car #95 who got up on 2 wheels at the finish! :eek: I wish someone was taking pics at the time! I might have a couple of vidoes of Bob and Vic from the Pro, I'll see if I can post them here, if they don't mind.

Congrats to all those that trophied!

I was lucky to work when SM was running, lots of fun watching you guys, specially Bob and Vic, and car #95 who got up on 2 wheels at the finish! :eek: I wish someone was taking pics at the time! I might have a couple of vidoes of Bob and Vic from the Pro, I'll see if I can post them here, if they don't mind.


I was driving car 95. Apparently there are pictures of it. I will definitely post them when I get them.

Yes, Orange is the new Red. Ask anyone.

As for my car on 2 wheels, apparently SportsCar or someone got it on film. I think Gordon grabbed it for me...I can only assume that Rocket Rich was behind the wheel.

WOW :eek:

Should I keep letting him drive the car or what??? :help

One thing I learned having never driven on concrete before is that it is that sticky. Nice pic of Rich in your car Erik.

It was a great week. 3 championships!! Could not ask for more. :cool

It was great to meet alot of you guys. And thanks to every one for the all the kind words. I think it still has not hit me yet. Bob T and Jeff Reitmeir are guys that I have allways looked up to. They are bad ass drivers, great people and lucky for me good friends. :kiss

It was a cool that the top 6 cars were M3's and all but one (Tunnell) had a Sias Tuning sticker on them. Some day Tunnell will come to the dark side or at least the \\WESTSIIIIIIIIIIIIDE. :evil2 Those stickers were too cool. Hopefully the attached picture looks good.

Ryan, just ship your car down to me with a blank check and I will build you a 2nd place SM car. ;) Sersiously if you are really thinking of a S54 let me know.

A few more Pictures. The Pro Solo event winners. Patty Tunnell DSP 330, Tom Berry BSP Vette (tuned by SiasTuning !!) and my car.

Here is the FP winner. 95 M3 driving by Chris Cox and Tuned by SiasTuning :alright

WOW :eek:

Should I keep letting him drive the car or what??? :help

I dunno, I hear that guy is hard on the valve train of S50's. :D

It was a cool that the top 6 cars were M3's and all but one (Tunnell) had a Sias Tuning sticker on them. Some day Tunnell will come to the dark side or at least the \\WESTSIIIIIIIIIIIIDE. :evil2 Those stickers were too cool. Hopefully the attached picture looks good.

Ryan, just ship your car down to me with a blank check and I will build you a 2nd place SM car. ;) Sersiously if you are really thinking of a S54 let me know.

Wait, isn't Bob originally from Seattle? \\\WESTSIDE!!! Hey Vic, I need those bigger Sias Tuning Stickers! I promise I won't let Tony get ahold of em this time! :D

There are three swaps I'm considering. All are all-motor, 6-cylinders

- One requires no wiring and may make less power but with less weight
- One is heavier but crazy power and monster torque stock

Unfortunately these two are technically illegal to smog due to older block than the chassis. All ya'll already prolly figured these out by now.

- The 3rd option is the S54.

It will be a matter of expense, weight and smoggability in WA (which really doesn't absolutely need to be solved until 06/06 as my smog is good until then... :D) That could be plenty time to come up with some fake thing that runs on a Pocket PC in the glovebox or something... :devillook Stupid 99 o' mine. :(

But yah, I'll give ya a call once I figure out what I'ma try.

Ryan, sorry to hear about your motor. That sucks. Hopefully you'll have it back and better soon enough.... Vic, congrats on a very impressive win! I wanted to tell you in person a few times, but you were always pretty busy. I guess when you're a nat'l. champ, the well-wishers come out of the woodwork. ;) Seriously, great job!

Ryan, was it you or maybe it was John I met in tech? I saw bunches of M3s when I was teching (Sun. afternoon and Mon. morning), but I'm horrible with names! :95 Not to mention we were so busy I just didn't have much time to socialize. It was really cool to at least meet some of you this year. :)

Tommy (the minibike ridin', cowboy hat wearin', car techin' FSP driver......this year) :)

Tommy, I met you at tech on Monday. It was cool to meet a lot of people, including Erik, Vic, Lieb, and you.

I saw a lot of you guys, but didn't really meet any of you. I'm an introvert like that =)

Nationals was a good time. It was my first and I was pleased that I was able to compete in DSP, but a little pissed that a missed a trophy by a tenth :(

I'll be back next year though =)

You should have said hi... our cars are pretty easy to pick out. :D

You should have said hi... our cars are pretty easy to pick out. :D

so is mine, *you* should have said hi =)

Tommy, I met you at tech on Monday. It was cool to meet a lot of people, including Erik, Vic, Lieb, and you.

Thanks for keeping me honest, John. :) For the life of me, I couldn't remember your name, but I remembered your face and a "silver M3". But, "silver M3" is hardly definitive at Nats. ;)

I'm unsure what I'll be doing next year. Maybe in the FSP Scirocco again. Maybe in my car in STX is I decide to prep it. Maybe in a friends E30 in STX or DSP. Or maybe I'll come into some money and end up in BSP with an M3. ;)

Speaking of, I was surprised how few M3's were in BSP (if any?). Any reason for this? I thought they were competitive, but maybe not?

Tommy

Lee Picone's car is almost a mirror of BobT's car, and he finished 5th I think. It's hard to compete with 100 less hp I guess. :dunno

Speaking of, I was surprised how few M3's were in BSP (if any?). Any reason for this? I thought they were competitive, but maybe not?

Tommy

Because they are not as competive as the C4 Vettes with 335 Hoosiers on them.

Lieb and I both have BSP cars but we run SM because of the above and because it is more fun.

I wouldn't have thought the power issue would be that much of an issue. I'd imagine a BSP prepped C4 Vette would weigh in around, what, maybe 3000 lbs? Power should be <300 rwhp. (Low end) Torque would be pretty high, though. A BSP M3 would be ~2800 lbs? Figure 230-240 rwhp/tq. Yeah, I guess looking at it like that, it would be an uphill battle in the power dept. And C4's can tuck 335 width tires front and rear under factory bodywork! Uphill battle indeed.

I find it interesting to see so many wide E36's doing so well, be it in SM or DSP. There's always a trade-off between making a car wider and thus generating more lateral grip, but making it so wide that fitting it through the cones is more of an issue. I guess I'm hoping in the lower power classes, it won't be as necessary. I don't want to have to flare my E36 for DSP competition, nor do I want to lay down the coin for 18's. :)

Tommy

Lee Picone's car is almost a mirror of BobT's car...

From what I heard, Lee's ABS system may have been acting funny again in Topeka...

Also, note that Bob himself drove Lee's car in the Oscoda ProSolo (on Sunday only) and ended up standing on his Saturday morning runs (in his white SM car) -- I guess the car is not quite a mirror of Bob's car.

I don't think Lee's ABS has worked all year... he smokes the tires at ever braking point. And he also only has a 3.0L and not the 3.2L. He has the same suspension set up and tire sizes now though.

vettes also have a lower cg and double wishbones all around. And I wouldn't be surprised if BSP ones were making over 300 to the wheels


I wouldn't have thought the power issue would be that much of an issue. I'd imagine a BSP prepped C4 Vette would weigh in around, what, maybe 3000 lbs? Power should be <300 rwhp. (Low end) Torque would be pretty high, though. A BSP M3 would be ~2800 lbs? Figure 230-240 rwhp/tq. Yeah, I guess looking at it like that, it would be an uphill battle in the power dept. And C4's can tuck 335 width tires front and rear under factory bodywork! Uphill battle indeed.

I find it interesting to see so many wide E36's doing so well, be it in SM or DSP. There's always a trade-off between making a car wider and thus generating more lateral grip, but making it so wide that fitting it through the cones is more of an issue. I guess I'm hoping in the lower power classes, it won't be as necessary. I don't want to have to flare my E36 for DSP competition, nor do I want to lay down the coin for 18's. :)

Tommy

I wouldn't have thought the power issue would be that much of an issue. I'd imagine a BSP prepped C4 Vette would weigh in around, what, maybe 3000 lbs? Power should be <300 rwhp. (Low end) Torque would be pretty high, though. A BSP M3 would be ~2800 lbs? Figure 230-240 rwhp/tq. Yeah, I guess looking at it like that, it would be an uphill battle in the power dept. And C4's can tuck 335 width tires front and rear under factory bodywork! Uphill battle indeed.

I find it interesting to see so many wide E36's doing so well, be it in SM or DSP. There's always a trade-off between making a car wider and thus generating more lateral grip, but making it so wide that fitting it through the cones is more of an issue. I guess I'm hoping in the lower power classes, it won't be as necessary. I don't want to have to flare my E36 for DSP competition, nor do I want to lay down the coin for 18's. :)

Tommy

Tommy:
My 1996 C4 Collector's Edition Vette had the LT-4 / 6 speed and was highly modified (est. 450+hp). That thing would boil the 315's at 65 mph w/just a tap of the clutch and a hammer on the go pedal. My M3 could only DREAM of doing that.

You guys need to come out there to the ///Eastside where no C4s run in BSP :)

Yeah, I tried BSP out here, and the year I did, It was me vs. a pile of Nationals Champs/Trophy winners in uber-prepared cars. Gordon did win BSP locally this year, but Vette participation was a lot lower than in previous years and Gordon didn't really miss any events. Shit Harold Olsen (this year's winner) is a regular in 3 of the autoX clubs we run with. HE is tough!

I would expect Lee's car to definitely get faster next year or the following.. A 3.2, header, sans-AC, doors, etc... he still has quite a bit of elbow room, and don't forget the *shudder* Hoosier disadvantage.

The V710s were definitely the stickier tire out there. You could stick a fingernail into the Hoosier and see the indentation. You could stick your entire finger into the 710! I heard estimates of gains (from people that switched) of roughly .3-.6 seconds PER COURSE.

I would expect Lee's car to definitely get faster next year or the following.. A 3.2, header, sans-AC, doors, etc... he still has quite a bit of elbow room, and don't forget the *shudder* Hoosier disadvantage.

The V710s were definitely the stickier tire out there. You could stick a fingernail into the Hoosier and see the indentation. You could stick your entire finger into the 710! I heard estimates of gains (from people that switched) of roughly .3-.6 seconds PER COURSE.

That's all great and everything, but I can't fit 710s on my car so I am runnin' 245/35-18 Hoosiers. When are they going to release the new sizes?

That's all great and everything, but I can't fit 710s on my car so I am runnin' 245/35-18 Hoosiers. When are they going to release the new sizes?

Jason, you have 18" RACE wheels? BLING! :stickoutt

Now you just need the pink zipties like m3leib and you'll be rockin!!! ;)

Jason, you have 18" RACE wheels? BLING! :stickoutt

Now you just need the pink zipties like m3leib and you'll be rockin!!! ;)

Yep, those were MY 18x9 SSR Comps Leib and I were runnin' at Nationals and those are HIS LTWs on my car in my signature. As for the pink zipties, my car is going on the rack at Autohaus Unlimited next Saturday for the new clutch. I am sure that Hutchins will "attempt" to "install" the ziptie "modification" while it's up there.

Now you just need the pink zipties like m3leib and you'll be rockin!!! ;)

Damn, now everyone will know my trick :mad . They are good for at least .4 seconds. That's alright though, I have a set of prototype mauve zip ties in order for next year ;)

I have 2 yellow zipties at each corner. ;) (springs and shocks)

Yep, those were MY 18x9 SSR Comps Leib and I were runnin' at Nationals and those are HIS LTWs on my car in my signature.

LOL// I thought me and Doby were the only ones doing that :) I got one up on you... Doby had my shocks, battery, AND SSRs :) But the nice thing was, I got to fly out :redspot

Eric:
I'm still laughin' 'bout the "E. WONGer" on you guy's car. :lol That's some funny shit. Just wait 'til Lieb gets his new magnets made. I think there's good stuff comin' this way.

Eric:
I'm still laughin' 'bout the "E. WONGer" on you guy's car. :lol That's some funny shit. Just wait 'til Leib gets his new magnets made. I think there's good stuff comin' this way.

haha... there is a thread somewhere in Mid-Atlantic w/ more Wonger stuff.

It was funny when me and my sister ran track in HS... my coach would always say to us and this other kid named Nathan White... "Two WONGs dont make a White"

THE WONGer

Oh, and the shadow of the "Honda" sticker secretly applied overnight by Chris Travis... I'm going to leave it on there until next year. :)

Eric:
I'm still laughin' 'bout the "E. WONGer" on you guy's car. :lol That's some funny shit. Just wait 'til Leib gets his new magnets made. I think there's good stuff comin' this way.

www.ClownPenis.fart ;magnets are being made as we speak

Damn e-mail notification didn't work for these last responses. :rolleyes

vettes also have a lower cg and double wishbones all around. And I wouldn't be surprised if BSP ones were making over 300 to the wheels

Yup, well aware of the lower cg and doube wishbones, but only the earlier C4's have the preferred "non-zero scrub" setup. Double wishbones does not necessarily a good suspension make. Likewise, struts are not always the end of the world, either. And Vettes are w-i-d-e, which as we all know isn't necessarily a good thing in autocrossing. I still feel that's one of the main reasons E36's do so well. Even flared with 285's, the overall width isn't excessive. But, it'd be interesting to see the width comparison between a C4 with 335's and a flared E36 with 285's.

Regarding Vette power, I'd forgotten about the LT4's being legal in BSP. Yup, certainly over 300 rwhp available there.

Tommy

Tommy:
My 1996 C4 Collector's Edition Vette had the LT-4 / 6 speed and was highly modified (est. 450+hp). That thing would boil the 315's at 65 mph w/just a tap of the clutch and a hammer on the go pedal. My M3 could only DREAM of doing that.

But, that 450 rwhp wasn't through BSP legal mods. :)

Tommy

also in BSP you can take that early C4 zero-scrub suspension and bolt it up to the newer 300hp cars.

It would be interesting to do some theoretical analysis on car width and its affect on lap times...



Damn e-mail notification didn't work for these last responses. :rolleyes



Yup, well aware of the lower cg and doube wishbones, but only the earlier C4's have the preferred "non-zero scrub" setup. Double wishbones does not necessarily a good suspension make. Likewise, struts are not always the end of the world, either. And Vettes are w-i-d-e, which as we all know isn't necessarily a good thing in autocrossing. I still feel that's one of the main reasons E36's do so well. Even flared with 285's, the overall width isn't excessive. But, it'd be interesting to see the width comparison between a C4 with 335's and a flared E36 with 285's.

Regarding Vette power, I'd forgotten about the LT4's being legal in BSP. Yup, certainly over 300 rwhp available there.

Tommy

also in BSP you can take that early C4 zero-scrub suspension and bolt it up to the newer 300hp cars.

Or drop an LT4 into an older C4. :)

It would be interesting to do some theoretical analysis on car width and its affect on lap times...

When I did the Evo Dial-In several years ago in my CP Camaro, we simulated a car that was 2" narrower (per side). We baselined our times in a slalom. We then moved the cones to open the slalom the aforementioned 2 inches to simulate a narrower car. Indeed, the times were measurably quicker, but I don't recall the details. It made me a believer in a narrower width car (to an extent, anyway).

Of course, this is hardly a perfect science, but it had me seriously considering selling my 12" wheels for some 10's. FWIW, it was Ankeny and Daddio whom I was discussing this with.

Tommy

Or drop an LT4 into an older C4. :)



When I did the Evo Dial-In several years ago in my CP Camaro, we simulated a car that was 2" narrower (per side). We baselined our times in a slalom. We then moved the cones to open the slalom the aforementioned 2 inches to simulate a narrower car. Indeed, the times were measurably quicker, but I don't recall the details. It made me a believer in a narrower width car (to an extent, anyway).

Of course, this is hardly a perfect science, but it had me seriously considering selling my 12" wheels for some 10's. FWIW, it was Ankeny and Daddio whom I was discussing this with.

Tommy

That also fails to factor in the extra grip you get from a wider track. Theres going to be some optimal width for a given course most likely. You could probably figure out how wide to be based on how many slaloms are on course or something. that would be neat.

That also fails to factor in the extra grip you get from a wider track. Theres going to be some optimal width for a given course most likely. You could probably figure out how wide to be based on how many slaloms are on course or something. that would be neat.

Exactly. It's certainly an imperfect science and it's up to the owner of the car to determine what's more important: ultimate lateral grip (wider track) or ability to transition through the tight stuff (narrow track). At the National level courses, the wider track typically doesn't hurt *that* much, which would explain why so many wide cars still do so well.

Same applies for car number selection. Higher number = running later in the heat. Lower number = running earlier. This is a serious consideration when impending bad weather is an issue. Choose your number according to your best prediction. Of course there are other considerations behing number selection, but for me, this is the big one.

Tommy

I've often heard about this demo, but every time I get the feeling that it's misleading people. Try keeping the slalom the same and putting narrower wheels and tires on. Now which is faster? They left out the the fact that a wider car will have less total weight transfer, and thus can theoretically change direction quicker. Not to mention the overall benefit of having wider rubber, especially on a car that's under-tired. It may actually be a wash when it comes to slaloms, but I'll take a wider track everywhere else, thank you. I know from back to back runs that you can pick up seconds on a stock miata just by bolting on some 13x9s with wide rubber. The track increases by over 6", but the car gets a lot faster. Not exactly scientific since the CG of course lowers a bit and gearing improves, but I think it's indicative of the benefits of increased track.
There is a point of diminishing returns, but I doubt that any M3 is close to it.



When I did the Evo Dial-In several years ago in my CP Camaro, we simulated a car that was 2" narrower (per side). We baselined our times in a slalom. We then moved the cones to open the slalom the aforementioned 2 inches to simulate a narrower car. Indeed, the times were measurably quicker, but I don't recall the details.

Tommy

I've often heard about this demo, but every time I get the feeling that it's misleading people. Try keeping the slalom the same and putting narrower wheels and tires on. Now which is faster? They left out the the fact that a wider car will have less total weight transfer, and thus can theoretically change direction quicker. Not to mention the overall benefit of having wider rubber, especially on a car that's under-tired. It may actually be a wash when it comes to slaloms, but I'll take a wider track everywhere else, thank you. I know from back to back runs that you can pick up seconds on a stock miata just by bolting on some 13x9s with wide rubber. The track increases by over 6", but the car gets a lot faster. Not exactly scientific since the CG of course lowers a bit and gearing improves, but I think it's indicative of the benefits of increased track.
There is a point of diminishing returns, but I doubt that any M3 is close to it.

Of course, that's why I said it was an "imperfect science". It's not cut-n-dry or fool proof by any means. It's just another data point to consider and (as always) take with your choice of salt. And we're only talking width, not gearing or CG location. Keep in mind that sometimes merely bolting on another set of wheels isn't feasible. When I was testing, no one had a set of 16x10's with fresh 23.5x11.5's for me to borrow so we did the best we could with what we were given.

Tommy

Of course, that's why I said it was an "imperfect science". It's not cut-n-dry or fool proof by any means. It's just another data point to consider and (as always) take with your choice of salt. And we're only talking width, not gearing or CG location. Keep in mind that sometimes merely bolting on another set of wheels isn't feasible. When I was testing, no one had a set of 16x10's with fresh 23.5x11.5's for me to borrow so we did the best we could with what we were given.

Tommy


easiest way to test is to have an assortment of spacers and a car with totally sawzalled fenders.

easiest way to test is to have an assortment of spacers and a car with totally sawzalled fenders.

Unless you want to test a narrower track than what you currently have.

Tommy

Unless you want to test a narrower track than what you currently have.

Tommy


also bring a very large car sized vice...

lol

also bring a very large car sized vice...

lol

You can get those at your local ACME Hardware store. Ask for Wilie, he'll hook you up :)

where does everybody auto-x at i never see any of these cars and ma ybe its due to me living in the mid-west but i would love to have some e36 m's to compete against..here

Geez, I have to run against Vic and Gary every weekend!

Geez, I have to run against Vic and Gary every weekend!

Yea, we've got Bob out here.

Hey, at least we are getting beat by the best.... :eyecrazy

Geez, I have to run against Vic and Gary every weekend!


Yea, we've got Bob out here.

Hey, at least we are getting beat by the best.... :eyecrazy

spoiled azz bustas. ;)

we get to run on assphalt and now our "reference" bsp moffet/bill buetow car is sellin their car. :(

oh well, at least you guys don't get to peep any of the secret weapons until we're running em down in kali. :devillook \\\W3STSIDE!

I hope one of your secret weapons (BTW, that's an EASTSIDE term :rolleyes ) involves a new engine.

:stickoutt

You're coming back to DC next year, right? :D

///M344.....///M344

///W3STSIDE fo life yos

I hope one of your secret weapons (BTW, that's an EASTSIDE term :rolleyes ) involves a new engine.

10 second car, not a 10 minute car.... i guess i could PUSH it...

freal, tho... 2 j z no shit. it will decimate all. after i put 10 maybe 15 grand in it. or more. and if i have to... overnight parts... from jahpahn. ;)

///W3STSIDE fo life yos.

that's \\\W3STSIDE, foo! get. that. right.