I think this is my 1st post :buttrock

I've got a 98M3 coupe. I was wondering what my turbo/sc options were. I want to be able to beat my bro's 01 M3 0-60 and 1/4 mi. thx

This is going to be a huge debate...

How do you want to beat you brother's 01 M3. Track or Street?

Originally posted by Kevlar
This is going to be a huge debate...

How do you want to beat you brother's 01 M3. Track or Street?

street, i'm a better driver than him and beat him already on the tracks. basically, i want it to be faster. :D

Originally posted by Focal M3


street, i'm a better driver than him and beat him already on the tracks. basically, i want it to be faster. :D

i'd preffer a SC, but i know turbo's generally are easier to get more hp out of.

Get an Active Autowerke turbo kit, they're so badass and it will give you almost 400 hp, but its rather expensive ($10,000) check out Active Autowerke (http://www.activeautowerke.com/)
Or for a supercharger try Race Marque Systems (http://www.racemarque.com/) Good Luck, and I hope you smoke your bro:mdrbig

Originally posted by Focal M3
street, i'm a better driver than him and beat him already on the tracks. basically, i want it to be faster. :D

Turbo... www.aatuning.com.
Check out this thread... http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24304&perpage=25&pagenumber=2

Originally posted by Focal M3


i'd preffer a SC, but i know turbo's generally are easier to get more hp out of.

What year M3 do u have? I might have a kit for sale. Turbo kit
used too ...

Two different animals and it is not fair to compare the two (having tried both), but to beat your brother's car favorably, you will need to run a good 9-10psi on either a turbo or SC. There are many other factors that will influence your decision (money, power offered, etc.). Get opinions, but don't buy it until you test it. If you want to hear a longer opinion post and I will elaborate.

Originally posted by TKM3


What year M3 do u have? I might have a kit for sale. Turbo kit
used too ...

98 3.2L, looks like you got a 95 so it prolly won't work. :(

Originally posted by ///MCubed
Two different animals and it is not fair to compare the two (having tried both), but to beat your brother's car favorably, you will need to run a good 9-10psi on either a turbo or SC. There are many other factors that will influence your decision (money, power offered, etc.). Get opinions, but don't buy it until you test it. If you want to hear a longer opinion post and I will elaborate.

Yea, i'm just tryin to do some research right now. I'd really like to know the different characteristics of the sc vs turbo on my M. Looks like you've tried both, do you care to compare them for me? If not on the boards, hit me w/an email focal_m3@yahoo.com

thx guys, looks like there's a lot of traffic flowing through this place :cool: .

Originally posted by Kevlar


Turbo... www.aatuning.com.
Check out this thread... http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24304&perpage=25&pagenumber=2

ok, i read most of that thread(at least the parts that weren't just flames). I do not want a drag car. I want to keep my BMW signature handling but want hp to spare. I have no mods except an h&r coilover kit and 18" breyton Visions. I will be replacing the suspention components as soon as i research that more(prolly here ;) ) but other than that, I'm thinking exhaust, intake, and chip, what else should i do? Money is pretty much not a big issue but plz be reasonable. :stickoutt

Originally posted by Focal M3
Yea, i'm just tryin to do some research right now. I'd really like to know the different characteristics of the sc vs turbo on my M. Looks like you've tried both, do you care to compare them for me? If not on the boards, hit me w/an email focal_m3@yahoo.com


Superchargers are cheaper, build boost very linear (means they only have max boost at redline)... normally only go up to 7psi (however, i've heard people going as high as 11psi. Normally have higher intake temperatures (due to heat soak) unless you get the aftercooler (RMS trademark for an water-air intercooler).

Turbos are more expensive, build boost very early (normally 3500rpm) which leads to lots of torque earlier in the power curve. Turbo kits can run 12psi easily with an intercooler (and more psi if you wanna upgrade more stuff). Heat soak is an issue, but a big ass intercooler behind the front bumper helps solve that problem.

Turbos are much more complicated... and software is key to either installation.

This is a very brief synapsis.

Originally posted by Focal M3


ok, i read most of that thread(at least the parts that weren't just flames). I do not want a drag car. I want to keep my BMW signature handling but want hp to spare. I have no mods except an h&r coilover kit and 18" breyton Visions. I will be replacing the suspention components as soon as i research that more(prolly here ;) ) but other than that, I'm thinking exhaust, intake, and chip, what else should i do? Money is pretty much not a big issue but plz be reasonable. :stickoutt

Installation of a turbo doesn't limit you to only drag racing... there are a bunch of people that are using their turbos for daily driving purposes that have logged over 60k miles on AA turbos without problems... I don't know much about other tuners turbos.

I know people that are very happy with their turbo installations. However, running 9psi of boost will put you at about 400hp which are close to the limitations of the factory equipment (clutch, brakes etc.) If you want more, you should consider upgrading those as well as the suspension... but those are just my $0.02.

If you want to stay NA... i'm sure there are some options out there... I just don't know of any for the power you are looking for.

Originally posted by Focal M3


98 3.2L, looks like you got a 95 so it prolly won't work. :(


Your right, it won't fit. But Imight have a OBD2 s/c kit for sale =).

Ok, have a seat cause this is going to be lengthy:

SC:

Overall, a great modification. Downside to them is the the heat soak effect they give to your intake charge. Definitely would recommend an aftercooler or a water injection (a la Aquamist, AA, Spearco). If you dont address the cooling of the intake, the car can feel like a slug and sometimes perform less than when stock. The kit is simple enough for you to install if you have some technical know how, the only downside is that most (not all) SC tuners provide poor instructions. Another downside is that most of the providers of these kits don't have the software perfected; the hardware is of great quality, but without the proper software, the kit will not perform to expectation. On the track (eventhough I never tested mine), there are a few things you will have to address. One, being the afore mentioned intake cooling and the other would be and oil cooler. If I were to go with another SC kit it would probably be ERT or Dinan, but at the end I would probably end up ditching their software to have the car properly dyno tuned. At the end of the day, if you pay for the basic kit, you have a kit that does not perform consistently if you don't address the heat soaking.

Turbo:

To some, it may not be in their budget, but in retrospect, a properly designed SC kit will run you just about the same amount of money that the turbo kit would cost you. The power delivery of the turbo car is totally different than the SC'ed car (non-linear/semi-instantaneous -vs.- linear), but you will find this characteristic in every turbocharged car (the delivery can be dampened somewhat and you also have the variable vane turbo, but that is another matter). Overall, comparing the cars at the same boost level (trying to be fair, eventhough the turbo car had the upper hand since it did have the intercooler), the turbo car was WAY more fun. The turbo car was more repeatable with the amount of power it made back to back (negligible loss in power when compared to the SC). Again, with no experience on the track, the only thing I think I would recommend for the turbo car is an oil cooler (apart from most of the other track gear needed of course).

Maintenance cost for either kit:

It really depends on your driving style. Either can do damage to your drivetrain (clutch, shafts, diff, etc.) very easily. Oil changes on both kits are taken car of when you change the car's oil, only that you will have to change the oil at shorter intervals. The SC will have the added maintenance of the drive belt, but that is very negligible in cost. And then there is over boost, which will lead to detonation and the death of your engine if you are not careful.

Options that I would consider for either kit:

-Free flowing exhaust
-Water injection (far more for the SC than the Turbo)
-Aftercooler/Intercooler (SC not included, Turbo included)

If there is anything you want me to elaborate on further, post again, I think this may help a few others as I have seen a couple of threads asking questions about forced induction. Hope this helps.

PS. One last fact, which may be taken with a grain of salt. I have seen many people go from SC'ed cars to turbo'ed cars, never vice versa; sometimes from SC'ed back to naturally aspirated. Just something to think about.

My car did heat soak... but you're nuts if you think it was slower than stock. ;) at very worse, after 10 dyno pulls, I put out 275 at the rear wheels... still as much as an E46 M3, with more torque... and 300 lbs less weight. Just remember, heat soak on a dyno is worse, because you're not moving!

Definitely go with Dinan over RMS if you want just a basic very reliable kit.

-kit
Dinan supercharger

Originally posted by kitwetzler
My car did heat soak... but you're nuts if you think it was slower than stock. ;) at very worse, after 10 dyno pulls, I put out 275 at the rear wheels... still as much as an E46 M3, with more torque... and 300 lbs less weight. Just remember, heat soak on a dyno is worse, because you're not moving!

Definitely go with Dinan over RMS if you want just a basic very reliable kit.

-kit
Dinan supercharger

Take it out to the track and you will see what I am talking about.

Let me know if you want to be able to hand it to your buddies E46 M3, but still keep the car as a reliable N/A track car. I honestly don't think that any F/I set up is reliable as a weekend warrior track car. And for sure not for a full time track/ race car. Even all the AA guys would agree with me there. So would all the top club racers and track guys. If you want to kill him time after time in the stoplight grand prix or at the drag race, then for sure, AA turbo.

Brian

Originally posted by kitwetzler
My car did heat soak... but you're nuts if you think it was slower than stock. ;) at very worse, after 10 dyno pulls

I raced a friend of mine in a E36 with an ERT supercharger (before he installed the water injection system). Races were from 50ish to 130-150ish every time (street time ... no track time).

The first race, he started pulling on me from 3rd gear and by 150 he was way out ahead. By the last race (maybe 4th or 5th time), he wasn't able to pull on me. We were head and head up until he started making boost in 5th gear (that's right... 5th gear). Supercharger works great in the beginning... but I was right there after a while.

Everyone has given really good advice, so all i can give you is my experience. if you want just flat out power i would say go with the turbo, just be ready to pay for it. But i wanted reliablity first since my M3 is my daily driver. But heat soak on a sc is definately an issue. On the dyno i can see a 20 hp swing because of it. But in reality, both but excess force on your motor, so problems are bound to catch up with you. But if your sc breaks your car is still able to run. i am not sure about a turbo. but the more important thing is that its WORTH IT. 300hp is how the car was intended to be. An it makes a fun car to drive 10X better.

Whatever, guys. :)

Look through the archives, I've had my car out for a full 2 hours at Laguna Seca in 4 30 minute sessions. Still worked great. Was able to pull an E46 M3 at the beginning of the car and at the end... of course, he was wasting me in the corners, with huuuuge hoosiers. ( I was on MXX3s that day )

Anyway, 1:47 - 1:48 at laguna seca on street tires is pretty fast.

ERTs superchargers suck. Rising rate FPR? Bleh.

thx a bunch guys! leaning towards a turbo right now. :clap:

Bump!

Bob ///M3