I've never given serious thought to instructing at DE's until just recently. The thought of free track time for tuning is interesting, not to mention I think it would be fun to share my enthusiasm for the sport and hopefully teach a thing or two along the way.

There certainly are cons, the biggest one being you might get hurt in a car that you don't know is safe. We know our cars, know the brakes are good, bushings, etc. but being a passenger in a strange car is kind of harrowing. Not to mention goofy students, but they are easier to tame since you lay it out on the line that they calm down and get better or the lesson is over.

I am just wondering how much experience is generally desired to become an instructor. I have friends in FL who became instructors after a few events. Is there a certain number of weekends most clubs require before they consider you to become an instructor? And could you instruct at tracks where you have extensive experience, but not at tracks where you've been only once or twice? My take is that many instructors at DE's are very bush league and either have a chip on their shoulder or are only in it for the free track time and don't dedicate themselves to the students as they should. I've had generally great experiences with instructors, I've been lucky and I've requested specific guys.

I think I could be a good instructor since I communicate well and have experience as a trainer in my day job. How does one actually request to be an instructor? Do you flat out ask them or do they approach you. I think I'll look into the NASA and PeachtreeCCA instructor schools next time I run with them.

with some clubs you take the initative, with others you wait until they approach you. I know with NASA, you have to step up and ask to have an instructor sign off for you that you have the driving skills/track knowledge at a number of seperate events. Then you take an instructor clinic.

I've also seen some clubs where they just verbally ask you about your experience and you can instruct on the spot. :nono

instructing is a huge responsibility, especially considering that many DE participants are inexperienced drivers. My experience with instructors has been off-and-on, some of them have been terrific, others horrific. Though it really depends on the individual, I feel that every DE instructor should have actual wheel-to-wheel racing (not DE, not hotlapping) experience. I don't like the idea of amateurs teaching amateurs.

I'd like an experienced racer as an instructor too. But, I guess I wonder why a person with those credentials would want to come out to a track and jump from car to car to car all day long in order to get a little free track time. Probably not gunna happen too often.

What I'd like is someone who can communicate well and has experience on the track we're running. Someone who is calm and confident. As a noobie, I need to learn the line, where the corner workers are, braking and turn-in points. The basics. I can spend a considerable amount of seat time getting good at those things before I need someone who can teach me more aggressive skills.

I've had good and bad instructors. The ones I liked best were the ones who didn't talk my ear off. I think once you've got the basics down well, you should limit your efforts to one or two things per session. YMMV.

Jay

I've always wondered why people think racers are inherently better qualified at being DE instructors than non-racers...

The skills that separate a very experienced DE student and the average club racer are racing skills, which don't belong in a DE setting at all. I don't see how having to learn racecraft really makes one far superior in the area of basic car control...

The skills that separate a very experienced DE student and the average club racer are racing skills, which don't belong in a DE setting at all. I don't see how having to learn racecraft really makes one far superior in the area of basic car control...

Agreed - I am a racer, and have been an instructor. Racecraft is useful when racing, that's it.

As for instructing. Been there, done that. I will help out if asked, or if the club is in a pinch, but I don't like riding in another persons 750hp Supra, or 600hp Porsche Turbo with no cage and only a stock-three point belt around Willow Springs, or California Speedway. Just not my cup of tea. I believe in Darwinism too much to take those risks. I am thankful that there were instructors to teach me however!!

I've never given serious thought to instructing at DE's until just recently. The thought of free track time for tuning is interesting

you can forget that free test-n-tune idea right now. when you are instructing you will have ZERO free time. You are lucky if you have time to take a whiz. When I first started DEs I saw a guy taking a leak with his helmet on. I thought there was no way that anyone could be in such a big hurry that they didn't have time to take their freakin helmet off. Well, I can tell you that there have been lots of times when I'm instructing I've had to whiz with my helmet on.
I think it would be fun to share my enthusiasm for the sport and hopefully teach a thing or two along the way.

that is really the only reason to instruct.

There certainly are cons, the biggest one being you might get hurt in a car that you don't know is safe.

most definitely. Your own safety has to be your #1 priority at all times. You can in no way, shape or form depend on the student to do the right thing.

I am just wondering how much experience is generally desired to become an instructor.

that really depends on YOU. Some clubs or chapters have secret initiation rites for instructors. In others you simply get approval to attend an instructor clinic. I think that you run with NASA, correct? Sign up for an instructor clinic. Give it a try. If you dont like it, you dont have to do it.

I think I could be a good instructor since I communicate well and have experience as a trainer in my day job.

You should do fine. communication is the most important skill that an instructor needs.

joel
instructor: BMW CCA NJ & Del Val, CarGuys, NASA
BMW CCA CR KP #151, SCCA ITS #15

I guess it depends on what clubs you instruct for, but many clubs give a decent amount of track time solely for instructors to run.

I've always wondered why people think racers are inherently better qualified at being DE instructors than non-racers...

The skills that separate a very experienced DE student and the average club racer are racing skills, which don't belong in a DE setting at all. I don't see how having to learn racecraft really makes one far superior in the area of basic car control...

A non-racer can be a terrific instructor, no doubt. At the same time, a racer can be an awful instructor.

It's not a matter of racers being inherently better qualified at teaching DE than non-racers; it's a matter of people with relatively little track experience purporting to be instructors. We know that EVERY real racer has some decent track experience because he/she has earned a racing license, which is at least a small hurdle, as opposed to any monkey with a checkbook and a sports car who happens to show up to a track day.

I haven't done DE in a while - all my track events are hotlapping and open passing - so I guess I might be somewhat removed from the beginners' DE scene. But I remember that in my second-ever track event, Andy Pilgrim (yes, that Andy Pilgrim) rode with me and showed me a few pretty interesting things. That kind of experience sticks. Personally, I've learned more about car control from racers than non-racers. Just my $0.02.

I guess it depends on what clubs you instruct for, but many clubs give a decent amount of track time solely for instructors to run.

Most events in the SE have a friday lapping day exclusively for instructors and solo students. Eight hours of tracktime to dial in the car, sweet.

I've had racers in the right seat who tell me there is nothing more to teach and sign me off.
And I have had instructors how give me pointers until the last session.

If you want to give something back that is great.
If you simply want track free time, reconsider.

If you do want to give something back, free track time and don't want to be the the right seat of a zero time student driving a brand new M5, do classroom. ;)

I probably did 50 track days before I began instructing. My friend, who was lead instructor for a NASA region, just said, "I have been watching you and you should start instructing." I also had the benefit of BMWCCA schools as a basis for teaching. Most of your students are novice and you are really teaching the basics of safety, track etiquette, the line, hand position, etc. Any advanced DE driver with good people skills and a good understanding of what they are doing has something to offer a novice student. The free track time is great but I have had days that just exhausted me. 12 sessions including my own 4. If you are in cars with some grip or a racecar you really get beat up. That is three+ hours on track. However, when you really see improvement and see the guy a year later running in an int. or adv. group it feels pretty good.

There are those drivers with just no clue, at all. It is amazing they drive on the street. Lots of them have Vtec engines.

I guess it depends on what clubs you instruct for, but many clubs give a decent amount of track time solely for instructors to run.

Sure. But you are often so worn out that you don't even want to drive all your sessions. It's rare that I've ever stuck around for the last sessions on a Sunday during a weekend when I'm instructing. Plus, you are usually jumping out of a student's car, missing a couple laps of the session and then you may have to come in early to make sure you are in the car for your next student. Don't even think about having time to actually perform setup changes to your car...you'll be lucky to have time to torque the wheels, check the tire pressures, and top of your oil once per day. When you finally get some time that you aren't driving or instructing, you'll find you'd rather just rest and refresh your fluids rather than climb underneath your car and start wrenching.

Instructing for free track time is definitely not the way to go. Nevermind that once you get into a well prepped race car you are usually so fast out there that you end up following most cars through turns most of the time.

Krisko, if the track time is what you are after, do the Friday track day. Once you get to racing, you'll quickly find that open track time, even with more lax passing rules, doesn't simulate racing conditions anyway...meaning that your setup work is mostly worthless and you definitely aren't learning any racecraft. Race test days, where 10/10ths is expected and allowed is the only way you can really dial your car in for racing...unless you plan to race at 8/10ths that you'll typically drive a DE session at.

We know that EVERY real racer has some decent track experience because he/she has earned a racing license, which is at least a small hurdle, as opposed to any monkey with a checkbook and a sports car who happens to show up to a track day.

Ha...it's easier to get a racing license than it is to become an instructor. Trust me. :lol

Ha...it's easier to get a racing license than it is to become an instructor. Trust me. :lol

Good points one and all...I often do see instructors literally running from car to car. And the above point is true, I was talking to the comp guy for NASA a few months ago asking him if I had enough experience to race. I started off with "I have 5 weekends in my S4 in 2002..." and he cut me off right there and said "come racing with us!".

But don't forget, if you truly want to share your enthusiam and you have the people skills do get involved in some degree. It does not have to be instructing. DEs need all kinds of positions to be filled. Talk to your CI of the club you want to do more for. Lay it on the line, you would like to help, you would like to improve your skills, you are just looking for some track time. As I said previously, classroom instructor can be a valuable asset to the club.

There is an instructor I know who did not want to instructor anymore, especially after hanging upside down at Turn 10 at Summit Point. She was going to go back to driving schools as an A student. What a waste. I knew she only wanted some occasional track time and liked the chapter environment. I suggested classroom instructor. That worked out well. The previous classroom instructor went back to instucting so we now could accept two more students and make the instructor pool a little bigger.

Bottom line, clubs need you! :buttrock

Ha...it's easier to get a racing license than it is to become an instructor. Trust me.

No kidding? I didn't know that, that's a sad state of affairs.

Agreed - I am a racer, and have been an instructor. Racecraft is useful when racing, that's it.

As for instructing. Been there, done that. I will help out if asked, or if the club is in a pinch, but I don't like riding in another persons 750hp Supra, or 600hp Porsche Turbo with no cage and only a stock-three point belt around Willow Springs, or California Speedway. Just not my cup of tea. I believe in Darwinism too much to take those risks. I am thankful that there were instructors to teach me however!!

The only time I instructed was a Supra Club event and my 2 students were sharing a 996TT w/ aftermarket turbo...at TWS.

I instruct for the Wisconsin CCA and the Milwaukee PCA. Both clubs asked me to instruct, I imagine if you wanted to instruct both clubs would be happy to consider it. Both clubs target people they consider good, safe, experienced drivers for their instructor group. As for free track time, forget it, instructors pay the same freight as the non-instructors (except for the annual Road America BMW DE where instructors receive a discount). However free track time is the absolute last reason for instructing. Instructing to share the joy of driving on a track and because others made the sacrifice for you are the reasons. I also echo the comments of others it can be a very long day particularly in the 90+ degree high humidity heat of summer.

No kidding? I didn't know that, that's a sad state of affairs.

Hmm...depends on how you look at it. Doesn't strike me as that sad as I love to see people getting involved in racing. Heck, it's easier to get a license to run the 24 Hours at Daytona that it is to get a SCCA National license. When it comes to Pro racing, $$ talks.

I think a lot of people who want to race spend way too much time screwing around doing DE's anyway. They end up being racers who can drive the line but have no idea how to actually race. They are often the ones who will follow a car around for lap after lap, making it look like "close racing" when they should have made the pass and gotten on with things 3 laps earlier. Learning to drive fast is the easy part of racing. But I've digressed...

My point isthis: if anyone here wants to race, get out there and start racing instead of running DE's for 1-2 more years thinking you need more "experience". Get relatively comfortable driving fast and then make the jump sooner rather than later. Don't let the DE habits taken hold too strongly. I think that's why auto-xers end up being good racers...they are comfortable driving at the limit and then don't have any preconcieved notion of "etiquitte" on the track. They also tend to be more creative with their lines and adapting different ways to get through any given turn.

My point isthis: if anyone here wants to race, get out there and start racing instead of running DE's for 1-2 more years thinking you need more "experience".

This is exactly where I'm coming from. I've only had about 12 DEs and I learn something at each one. At this point, I know I want to go racing someday, why wait?

Ha...it's easier to get a racing license than it is to become an instructor. Trust me. :lol

Bingo!

I've been trying to get all the way through this thread before commenting, but Bryan's point is compelling.

There are probably more squirrels with comp licenses than instructors.

I see zero reason to prefer a racer as an instructor. If your goal is to race, buy or build a race car and go racing. If you want to do a DE with your race car and have racer/instructor to give you much more advanced instruction, fine, but the instructor's first goal should be a safe DE above all else.

I'm one of those racers who doesn't do DE. Too time and money consuming. for the cost of a DE I can go racing or damned near. However, I may start doing some DE next year, but that is mainly to increase awareness of my company.

I also fully agree that if your reason for instructing is free track time, don't become an instructor. I instruct once a year at the SE-R Club of America annual convention DE. I'm out every student session and occasionally in the right seat in instructor sessions. I don't think I miss a session on the track (we rotate instructors rather than keep students and instructors together for the whole day). It's work. The only reason I can think of to instruct is because you love it enough to want to help others learn and get better. Oh, and for SERCA convention DE, we don't give away free track time to our instructors. Ours do it because they want to help people.

I find the whole DE culture to be somewhat humorous. To be sure there are instructors and students alike that have a healthy view of the whole thing. Then there are others who believe in a whole caste system of students/instructors and make you wonder if the FIA issues DE superlicenses.

Be honest with yourself regarding your motivations whether you are a student or an instructor. If you're an instructor, do it because you love to help people. If you're a student, do it for personal improvement, not to be at the top of some strange caste system.

I'm sure some of this will ruffle some feathers, but so be it. :)

At this point, I know I want to go racing someday, why wait?

Exactly.

Why wait.

Some people do DE after DE and want to race and have a million excuses not to. Some of these people have wheels that are more expensive that some RTR race cars with a log book.

I know Bryan sold his M3 to do more racing. When I started racing karts I had a much more pedestrian car than I could have had so I could go racing. For that matter, I probably could have swung an M3 instead of my 328i if I wanted to give up racing. Not worth it.

If you want to go racing, go racing. Do karts if that's what you feel you need to do to get your feet wet, but go racing. BTW, karts are probably the best way to get started, but don't feel you can't start out in cars.

Go for it.

Then there are others who believe in a whole caste system of students/instructors and make you wonder if the FIA issues DE superlicenses.

I want to say a belated thanks for introducing that wonderful term. I believe I first read you use it on the infamous "Ghettoracer" thread on Rennlist. It has been a staple in my track language ever since then. :D

I want to say a belated thanks for introducing that wonderful term. I believe I first read you use it on the infamous "Ghettoracer" thread on Rennlist. It has been a staple in my track language ever since then. :D

What term is that, superlicense? I don't think we have anything like that going on down here, but I've only been in GA for about a year.

I do know there are much politics with the Peachtree group and I probably won't run with them again with the other options I've got.

What term is that, superlicense?

An FIA Superlicense is what is required to drive (let alone race) a Formula One car. You qualify for a Superlicense by winning a recognized national or FIA championship (F3, F3000, Champ Cars, probably IRL, and perhaps a few others). Others must petition the FIA for a Superlicense. And of course pay for it (they should call it super$$$$$).

A Superlicense at times has been incredibly hard to get, making championship winners very attractive to F1 teams. These days they are somewhat easier to get it seems. As with everything in the FIA, politics of the day plays a big part.

Then there are others who believe in a whole caste system of students/instructors and make you wonder if the FIA issues DE superlicenses.

:lol

That is too funny. I never thought of it in those terms. "Professional" DE drivers that seek to get signed off right away and go solo and climb some imaginary ladder.

Interestingly enough, it turns out Jenson Button's superlicense is in jeopardy right now. If his signing with Williams turns out to be in breach of contract, he will likely lose his superlicense.

Interestingly enough, it turns out Jenson Button's superlicense is in jeopardy right now. If his signing with Williams turns out to be in breach of contract, he will likely lose his superlicense.

if Button loses his superlicense, does this mean he will no longer be allowed to instruct at DE's... :devillook :D :stickoutt !

if Button loses his superlicense, does this mean he will no longer be allowed to instruct at DE's... :devillook :D :stickoutt !
Would you want an unlicensed driver instructing you?!?!?!?!??! hehe

Would you want an unlicensed driver instructing you?!?!?!?!??! hehe

oh of course not :D :stickoutt :devillook

if Button loses his superlicense, does this mean he will no longer be allowed to instruct at DE's... :devillook :D :stickoutt !

Well, he'd have to go to instructor school.

Now, in some places, he could just tell them he wanted to instruct, but in other places he'd have to wait for them to talk with him. ;)

I have been instructing for nearly 2 years now. I simply love it. Not only do i like the free track time in a separate instructor group, but i also really like driving with other instructors on track. It has made me a MUCH better driver, as has repeatedly reinforcing the fundamentals with student after student. I have also had the good fortune to drive a whole raft of cars, which has also made me a better driver. And finally, it is really exciting & rewarding to help other folks begin to see the light go on above their heads as they start to really get it together on track, just as I did when I was at their level. In fact, just this past weekend, I had the opportunity to ride with a guy, who is on this board, whom I had instructed a year ago. To say he has made tremendous progress with his driving in that year is a supreme understatement...and it was a real pleasure to connect with him again.

I've been doing DEs for 8 yrs and have been asked to instruct but don't want to....it's alot of responsibility and I come to the track to get away from that; I have enough of it in my daily life. I realize many have done it for me, and I very much appreciate it, but it was by choice. In my experience, as some have stated, depending on the chapter/region you are literally jumping from car to car with very little break in-between.....and if you lean toward motion sickness at all (it's much worse in the passenger seat as some instructor rides have shown me) you'll be taking medication for it or you'll be sick. And once you're sick, your weekend is usually done....I know more than one instructor who had to stop for this reason.

The thought of sitting next to a novice in a high-hp "whatever" who forgets where the brake pedal is scares me to death.