So, I have just got off the phone with my dad, and he took the news of a disasterous engine fairly well. So my guess is we'll have about 2k to plunk down for a new engine+tranny for my car, which won't nessicarily be any time soon. My father has set the hopeful date of completion back to January, to be a sort of birthday present to me.

So, immediate thoughts, m42/m44, still 1.8 liters so you won't have to lie your ass off that much to the inspectors when getting the registration renewed. I know if you have some patience you can get one for around 1k with all the bells and whistles, minus power steering. Not the 'greatest' engines in the world, but affordable and more powerful than what I have. Also have the option of going F/I fairly easily with a DASC netting around 200bhp.

Alternate thoughts, V8 power. 302's or LS1's should be able to be gotten cheaply from junkers with minimal effort you can be pushing serious power. Drawbacks are fuel economy and getting inspected.

M30, good power, snug fit, cheap? It's been done before by many people and bumps you to nearly 200rwhp/tq off the bat. Kills the weight distro though, like a V8 would.

M50? Aluminum block, so it should be somewhat light, 170ish hp if IIRC, but how much would it cost? Would be a good place to start on an upgrade path.

Post more ideas and suggestions! I'm off to work.

I have always wanted to swap in the Twin Turbo V6 from a 3000gt/Dodge Stealth. You can make around 450hp smog legal with only new turbos............

Oh and don't forget the obvious.......S14 :evil2 :evil2

OK, S14 for that price range will NOT work. $2k MIGHT get you a motor, with a questionable history. You don't want to be wondering what has been done in the past to your S14. I know what was done with mine for the last 60K miles, and I loved every minute of it until it went pop. Now I'm saving for one HELL of a rebuild. They are great motors, but not really good for a daily driven car.

LS1 would be nice, and you can mount it about as far back as the M10/M42 motors, so the weight balance won't be that bad. I would say go for this before any POS Ford V8 and even the LT1 (since the LS1 is lighter). But $$$ is going to be a factor here as well, so LT1 might end up being your only real V8 option for the budget since you need a tranny for that too.

M50 is nice, and there is that guy on Tricord's site that is swapping the cluster too which I think is so friggin awesome. But these motors have their own little issues too and don't seem to be as rugged as our 4 bangers are. They tend to overheat, esp when you are running without the fan (and room for an electric might be tight for you too behind the radiator). Crank hp is 189 with close to that in torque. It would end up getting you a car that probably feels more like a 323i on meth, since weights are about the same and you would have more mass out in front like the M20 powered cars do. But as you said, inspections might get dicey. And you would have to find a good deal on one with a tranny again.

M30 is heavy, but worth it since it is more of a 6 cylinder version of the M10 than anything else out there. They are stout and can take abuse. But without the right gearing you might have some mpg issues in daily use. They are thirsty motors.

M42/M44. NOW we're talking! I even know of someone in LA selling the motor and tranny from an e30 that has said he can deal (whatever that means exactly though I'm not sure). It is close to the same weight as the M10, but makes a bit more power, has self adjusting valves, and if you get one from an e36 it has a variable geometry intake manifold (basically a poor-man's version of VTEC). If you are planning on going the DASC route though, you will want to hold out for the e36 motor since that is what they were designed for. It looks like it can be done on the e30 motor, but it will take some effort (I can get into detail if you want).

There is also the sr20det swap if you aren't sticking JUST with BMW motors. That would be nice, although the turbo might get fussy in the AZ heat. They can make 400hp easy on pump gas with a different turbo but stock internals. And they aren't as heavy as the V6TT that DSM put into the Stealth/3kGT. There is a company that sells kits for e30's, so I'm guessing that things wouldn't be THAT much harder for the e21. Do a search in the e30 section for it. We've been talking about it for a week or so recently, and there is a link to that shop's website in the thread. But that full kit (including motor and tranny, everything to drop it into the e30) starts around $5k I believe.

Ok, i can only offer my limited knowledge here, but my E21 has a M20B25 in it and man, does that thing fly... I mean, it also has a few other mods (cam, exhaust and a few other goodies) but what a HUGE difference... It can be done for WAY under 2 grand... I gaurentee that... well, depending on how much a 6cyl front subframe would be... You could acquire the motor from a scrap yard for about a grand, rebuild it for a few hundred, then throw it in the car! That would be my suggestion.

Things i wouldn't touch: M50 (these have their own little problems as doug said above and is WAY to heavy...) S14 (you obviously don't have the money for this anyway...) and anything that didn't come in a BMW in the first place (for obvious reasons)

Hope that this helps???

Cheers,
Jonas

An sr20dett swap is honestly my dream e21, dispite some peoples regarding them as a bastard child if they don't have BMW under the roudel on the hood. Though I think that will end up out of my price range, as much as I would really love to do it.

So, outs: M50, anything that starts with S(14,50,38,52,54, ect)

Possibles: LS1 (though becoming pricy, weight might be whacked), M30 (little thirsty, might whack the weight distro, but I'd looooove it)

Probables: M42/M44

Now, honestly I think I'll end up going for an m42/44, just because they're cheap, they're reliable, and they have some POTENTIAL. Especially the e30 m42, though not with DASC, it's a strong engine, and we know someone who is going to show us the power it can release with a good turbo.

I've heard repetedly that the m44's from e36's are the ideal for DASC because of the 'poor man's vtec' because it alows for much finer tuning (at the hands of NickG, a moderator) for stage '2.5' which evens out the power much better. I've also heard that the m44's are much weaker internally because of the way the manufactured specific parts. So if I wanted to go super boost on it, I'd have to do a hefty rebuild. Which honestly I probably wouldn't

Personally, I'd LOOOOVE and e30 m42 engine. From what I hear they are tough little sumbishes like our m10's and can be gotten for cheap (start some correspondance between your friend and I if you would Panzer). They're about the same weight and size of an m10, with about 40% more power (nullified mostly by gearing, I believe). DASC is still an option, though not quite as perfect of one for the m44.


Also, if I do a swap from another BMW I'd love to toss the cluster, or at least all the fancy gizmos that come with the newer engines into my car as well. I know alot of people don't use their OBC or pay much heed to the little fuel thingamajig, but I think it would be a good touch, and a handy tool to remind me what the speed limit is. I know it'd be a pain in the azz, but I might as well while I'm at it if I can get all the wires. Just re-route everything, strip almost all the regular harness from the e21 and swap all the e36/30 stuff into it.


Echo, unless you've done some swapping of your own, the 323i has an m20b23, which has about 141hp, a little less than the m20b25, but very well suited to making an e21 feel damned fun. I'd love to pick up the 323 in texas, and swap my stereo stuff in it and call it a day, but I doubt my dad would go for it.

Jonas (Echo) hasn't done the swapping, but one of the car's previous owners (a BMW mechanic) did. It has the e30's 2.5L 'i' motor with a cam and an oil cooler from an e30 M3 (not sure the difference between the 325i and M3 oil coolers, but....). It moves. period. That car is nicely set-up, but it has taken some time and money to get there. I would suggest going M30 before M20 though, mainly due to chain/belt issues. Timing belts suck. M20's have them. I'll stop at that.

OK, so the DASC is NOT out of the quesion on the e30 M42, but would be easier on the e36 M42. Basic limitations for the e30 M42 getting the DASC that are obvious are the belt/pulleys involved. The e36 got a wider belt and pulleys on the crank/alt/power steering/water pump than the e30 M42 did. I need to try and see what can be done about this, since it isn't the end of the world. But the e36 M42 is set-up for it as a direct bolt-on, and I finally SAW one in person two nights ago at a meet here in SD. It looks great just sitting on there, and according to a good friend that has a non-DASC e36 318i that got to ride in the SC car, that is all that the 318i is missing. It would then be the perfect car for 'regular' use.

Too bad about the Texas car and your dad though. That woulda made things easy.

I'll see if I can't get Danny on this board. He's more of a DTM person from what I know, but we'll see. I'll be talking with one of his good friends Matt later today, so I'll have him bug Danny about this too. I was originally going to take the tranny off his hands for $200 until someone offered me a better deal I couldn't refuse. This sorta made Danny happy though, since then he can sell the motor AND tranny together for a swap to someone! It is complete, motor's ECU and everything, came out of his mom's car that got totaled with rear end damamge (IIRC).

From what I've heard doing DASC on an e30 M42 is a nightmare. The M44 has knock sensors, the right intake, the right crank pulley.

So you'd have to put in knock sesnors on an M44 harness on your m42 harness. You'd have to build a custom intake, and swap out the crank pulley and all the accesories (I think).

Don't be fooled. The e30 M42 engine is nice. I really love them actually, but don't be under the assumption that my turbo engine will be cheap. I'm 1400 bucks into the thing and I haven't even bought a turbo, intercooler, or stand alone. I am probably going to be pushing 5,000 dollars by the time I'm done (2.5 times you're budget).

I personally would go M20, or M44/DASC. Easy, simple, and tons of fun. I don't know if DASC will fit on an E21 chassis, but I guess there is only one way to find out. The M20 would kick ass... those crazy europeans are getting 500+ hp out of those things.

Dont get an M44 with it's cast internals. You can get the E36 M42 which does have the forged goodies however.

Would the e36 m42 work well with the DASC?

DASC obviously isn't included in the budget for the swap, but it's one of those nice power down the road options. It's just kind of nice to know there's a ready to go setup out there with perfect custom tuning avalible for a somewhat reasonable price.

I was unaware of an e36 m42... what car did this come in? The m44 was in the ti am I correct?

I think the M42 was in the e36 318is.... way early in the e36 chassis.

M44 was also in early Z3's

I was unaware of an e36 m42... what car did this come in? The m44 was in the ti am I correct?

All E36 318's up to '95.

m42 was for e36s predating 96, after that it was the m44. The main difference as far as DASC performance goes is the airflow system. MAF vs an eletrical meter, I think.

I've been doing some reading up on the forums already and awnsered some of my own questions. M42's have ghetto airflow sensors, and thusly can't be tuned quite as easily with stock manegment. So even with Nick G's hand in things, you probably aren't going to see more than 170rwhp, and 150ish tq. Which is admittedly quite a nice upgrade from what my old engine was putting down, and wouldn't be a bad thing at all to be riding around in daily.

The m44 can top out with DASC in the 180-190 and 160-170ish hp/tq range at the rear wheels. This would me a more ideal solution, however getting my hands on a engine and transmission would probably prove much more difficult. Where as I already have a shot at getting an m42 from an e30 fairly cheaply with all the bells and whistles I would need. Although I'm somewhat hessitant becuase I would really like the option of switching to DASC down the road.

Anyway, time for work!

edit:

I liked my reply better!

m42 was for e36s predating 96, after that it was the m44. The main difference as far as DASC performance goes is the airflow system. MAF vs an eletrical meter, I think.
As far as diffrerences between the E36 M42 and the M44, yea. The E30 M2 is quite a bit different from it's E36 counterpart.

Cost of downing supercharger?

The DASC is a direct bolt-on for the M44 and e36 M42. Nic, I don't think you need to do a custom intake for the DASC since you REMOVE the VGI manifold that the e36 M42/M44 comes with to mount the blower and its manifold. At least that is what it looked like on John's SC318i on Sunday night. Pulleys would be the main issue as far as I can see, although I'm not sure the knock sensor is something you can do without. Since it uses the stock chip and ECU, I don't see why you have to worry THAT much about pinging. Just upgrade the injectors to make sure you have plenty of fuel and only run 91 (like we're suppose to). DASC usually runs about $3500, give or take, for the full kit, without install.

Once I get that far with my M42 (after the M3 rebuild), I migh see if I can't work with DASC to get this going for the e30 crowd. There are enough of us around hat WANT that system and can't use it that they WOULD be making money off of it if they could get it to work. But for ~MY~ application I would be removing the powersteering. I want weight down even more on the 318iS, so the p/s is going to be ditched in favor of a non-power e30 rack. That will mean one less accessory to worry about pulleys with.

In the meantime Beta, I've sent an email off to get the ball rolling on the M42 contact. Danny should hopefully be getting in contact with you soon.....

Matt got into contact with me earlier, and I think the price sounds fair. It might take a month or two before I'll actually aquire it, but I think I might go for it. I'm also going to do some shopping around for e36 4 bangers just for the ease of DASC install.

And correct, the intake is completely replaced when you move to DASC. It's a custom peice DA makes. I doubt that the blocks are different on the two m42's, but I've never had a chance to fiddle with them, so I'm taking a shot in the dark. Knock sensors shouldn't be an issue, because I don't think that the e36 m42's had them either. Though I'm sure an actual owner would be more than able to correct me. Even if they didn't have knock sensors, it's something that can be fitted aftermarket if you *really* desire. Though it shouldn't be a problem because they all use the same programming, and with a larger injector, it should all be taken care of, so long as you use 91 (road trips might pose a problem, I've seen parts of Colorado that only have 87).

The DASC is a direct bolt-on for the M44 and e36 M42. Nic, I don't think you need to do a custom intake for the DASC since you REMOVE the VGI manifold that the e36 M42/M44 comes with to mount the blower and its manifold. At least that is what it looked like on John's SC318i on Sunday night.

That's not what Downing Atlanta said to me. I emailed them and they said that mounting their kit to an E30 M42 is more of a PITA than one might think. The didn't even really go that indepth into the pulleys, but the intake is what they said is the major problem.

Paul -- I gave my machinest 800 bucks earlier this week for the headgasket and the C&P forged 8.5:1 pistons. Both pieces are going to be completely custom so I won't get the block back with all the stuff for atleast 4 weeks. The headgasket will take the longest. Thank God Drag racing season is still going on, if it was the off season the pistons would take longer than the gasket. It seems that I will be keeping everything else the same. Rebuild on the head (3 angle valve job) and new head springs (stock). No frills at this point. Next is to purchase the turbocharger so that I can get going on he exhaust manifold. I'm not sure yet if I want to make a sectioned manifold with the Weldbends or get a piece of 'thin' wall gas line and bend custom runners myself. All will be revealed (well not all ;) ).

That's not what Downing Atlanta said to me. I emailed them and they said that mounting their kit to an E30 M42 is more of a PITA than one might think. The didn't even really go that indepth into the pulleys, but the intake is what they said is the major problem.

I also emailed Downing Atlanta recently and got a response back today... I'll just post it directly... Here it is:

The problems we know about are:



1) There is no serpentine belt to drive the supercharger. This can be
overcome by changing the A/C compressor and crank pulley to accept the '
92-93 4K setup.

2) The injector spacing on the fuel rail is different. Use '92-93
rail.

3) There is no knock control system. May not be a problem but the
knock sensors on the '92 and later engines offer some insurance against
engine damage from detonation.


So, there it is... straight from the source itself...

Cheers,
Jonas

Jonas! Thank you for sharing the info with us man. This makes me very optimistic. I should easily be able to talk my father into the m42, as it has already been done by a local and would provide limited problems with inspection. After I save my beans for a DASC, I'll be able to hook it up with the two fixes DA has themselves provided!

While knock sensors are a nice bit of insurance, I don't think they will be completely nessicary as I would seek out a dyno for some tuning upon the install itself. So all I have to do is go to a junker and yank 2 pullies and a fuel rail, or hell order them new, and slap them on, and we should be good to go. This makes me very optimistic!

look at this and you'll forget engine swap...

http://www.bmwpower.lv/members/phasma/88e7115motorsoutside.gif



So. I checked M50 E21 in my country. Actualy there was E34 525i purchased and replaced. Result is forced M50B25 which spins tires of 345 width in 3 gear!!! Can you imagine???

And thats not the most important thing. Most important thing is that V8 4.0 or 4.4 is much better choise becouse of it is more compact and powerfull.

OK, so I FINALLY went and looked the weights up for the motors....

...well, I actually stumbled upon them when looking for something else, but knew that we had been talking about them, so grabbed the info too.

And guess where I got this stuff.....from Bimmerforums' own friggin' site! There are like tech articles and stuff here besides the forums....who woulda thought?

So, these are the major ones that most people might use for a swap, and the M10 to start it off for a baseline for most of us (not already in a 323i). Keep in mind that the different displacements of the same motor are roughly the same weight.

M10: 180lbs
S14: 234lbs
M20: 258lbs
M30: 315lbs
S38: 321lbs / 332lbs (e28 vs e34)
M42: 220lbs
M44: 225lbs
M50: 299lbs
M52: 308lbs
M52: 260lbs ALLOY
S50: 333lbs Euro
M60: 321lbs
M62: 308lbs
M102: 320lbs

I don't know how these measure up in tranny issues too. Obviously they all don't have the same tranny, and larger motors need a larger tranny that is more stout and can deal with the higher power issues. I'm bringing this up since the M42 has a nasty dual mass flywheel between the tranny and motor. I'm not sure if they took weights with or without the flywheel. If it was WITH the flywheel, then you can ditch most of the 40lbs difference between the M10 and M42 by dumping the 36+lbs flywheel it has with something lighter (from the M20 with some work). And if you aren't going to be running AC, that's another larger portion of it that can come off (again assuming that that was included in the weigh-ins), getting the weight down to that of a stock AC equipped M10.

Basically you can get the e21 to weigh the same with the M42, spend less on it than you would for a full rebuild with enough power adders to get to the output of the STOCK M42. And you won't have to adjust your valves ever again. (although I'm starting to think of that as fun actually....)

(PS, I played with the names a bit there, so flame if you wish but you should all get the point. The early S38 is actually the M88-M88/3, and the S50 listed is the euro M3 motor. We really got what was called the M50B30 or M52B32 here in our M3, but the e36 guys swear up and down that they have S50/S52 mills. Our motors did not have solid lifters nor individual t-bodies, and were actually closer to the M50/M52 in design than anything else BMW made. Whatever. Those of us with real ///M motors know what make them special. But please let's not have this thread degrade into a solid lifter debate.)

In a BMW magazine they featured a few of these cars with m42s and some type of Eaton roots - it think- supercharger.

The m42 can be supercharged and it definatley makes it a nice performer.

I think its definatley a good engine to put into the e21 320i.
The other two options are m20 stroker or s14. Both may be a lot more than a
m42 swap.

I am bulding a 2.8 liter stroker for my 79 323i and have the bottom end just about done.

take care,

joe G
79 323i

The DASC unit is a Roots Type supercharger. It stands for Downing/Atlanta Supercharger. Sorry if we didn't make this clear, Jonas asked about this too on the phone the other day during all this swap talk. It is the most popular blower on the market for the M42/M44 motors. And with it most M44 motors in the e36 318ti can create a power-to-weight ratio that is better than the e36 M3 (while making less power). The e21 weighs less than the e36/5, which would make a DASC equiped M42 powered e21 a VERY nice performer indeed!

....too bad I'm looking to make a stroker M10 now......

I've heard many a person be dissapointed by m20 strokers. They keep the slow and low revving characteristics of the m20b27 from what I hear. Although they do make good power. I just have come to love the sound of a high revving 4, and as it stands I'm going to have a bit of trouble talking my dad into the m42, even though it really seems like the best option to me.

$300 on a new m10 that will (probably) need a rebuild, or $950 for an m42 + goodies for the swap that doesn't need a rebuild.

I know for a fact that I'll take off the power steering, though I'll probably keep the A/C if I can get it to work in the e21. I think I'll miss that the most when I get back into my e21 from my truck. The power steering would be nice, but I'm already used to the e21 without it, and don't want to figure out how to get that done.

I've heard many a person be dissapointed by m20 strokers. They keep the slow and low revving characteristics of the m20b27 from what I hear.

A 3 liter M20B25 is anything but like an M20B27. They do make pretty good power overall, but tend to die in the high end like their 2.5 counterparts.

How M20B25 can be 3 liter? :rolleyes

There are ways to stroke the m20b25 to be an m20b30.

How M20B25 can be 3 liter? :rolleyes

S50 crank + a bit more bore.

All right, after conversing more with my father, I have him somewhat sold on the m42. I just need some assurances to the difficulty of the install now. Nic, pop in here and give me a heads up. I know you did some crazy crap to mount it as far back as possible, but if you were to mount it just like an m10, how hard would it be? I know you have pointed me in the direction of the guy in CO who made his own motor mounts.

If you could get him on the forum that'd be wonderful because I'd like to know if he thinks the transmission would mount in the same place, using the m42 tranny. I know he also made his own custom adapter dohicky to keep his m10's tranny. Or if he'd be able to make another one for me. My transmission is in good shape now that I've taken care of the hole and flange, so I would trust it.

My dad isn't sure as to weather or not he wants to go through with the swap or if it would be easier to just find another 320i that had been restored and just get it. I'm kind of set on getting the m42 because it'd have more power, and I already have my sound system and suspension the way I want them. While I could swap them over to the new car it'd be a pita. Though I do need to redo the interior on mine. At the moment, the cost comparison seems somewhat equal, though I'd rather go m42 to have a bit more power.

I have a 524 td crank. Its forged and out a 524 turbo diesel.
Currently its at the machine shop being knife edged along with the lightened 325i flywheel. You can rev this crank to infinifty. Lol. To 6-6500 rpms.
I also have tripple side draft webbers, but I am going to run k jet from a porsche 911.

The block is a 1989 325i 2.5 liter. You can build a 2.9 or 3.0 liter but this is a little risky due to the size of the bore in the block. I am removing the eta crank in there and going to replace it with the 524 one. Also I am going to have the engine gone threw and even replace the rod journals.

The pistons are metric mechanic forged "I" style pistons. Its bored to 2.8 liters. The oil pump is a 524 brand new oil pump.

Yep....You can rev this engine. It was used prior to me getting it at Limerock in Tylers white 323i. I have yet to find a suitable 887 head. I also have the shrick 288 degree cam.

Guys I have seen metric mechanic engines. They are fast. With the 524 td crank, and the other mods, my car is gonna fly. :buttrock :redspot

A 2.8 liter stroker that is not based on the 'eta' block is a nice performer.

I will let you know when I get it all together,

thanks

Joe

All right, after conversing more with my father, I have him somewhat sold on the m42. I just need some assurances to the difficulty of the install now. Nic, pop in here and give me a heads up. I know you did some crazy crap to mount it as far back as possible, but if you were to mount it just like an m10, how hard would it be? I know you have pointed me in the direction of the guy in CO who made his own motor mounts.

If you could get him on the forum that'd be wonderful because I'd like to know if he thinks the transmission would mount in the same place, using the m42 tranny. I know he also made his own custom adapter dohicky to keep his m10's tranny. Or if he'd be able to make another one for me. My transmission is in good shape now that I've taken care of the hole and flange, so I would trust it.

My dad isn't sure as to weather or not he wants to go through with the swap or if it would be easier to just find another 320i that had been restored and just get it. I'm kind of set on getting the m42 because it'd have more power, and I already have my sound system and suspension the way I want them. While I could swap them over to the new car it'd be a pita. Though I do need to redo the interior on mine. At the moment, the cost comparison seems somewhat equal, though I'd rather go m42 to have a bit more power.

Why not just pick up a fresh M10 and build a mild street motor? From my understanding of what Nick went though, it sounds as if he did quite a bit of fabricating. Putting a built M10 back into your existing car would be quite more straightforward.

At this point, I've really finally got my dad sold on the m42. I know there isn't going too be a whole lot of a power increase, but I just want newer tech in there. I loved my m10, but I can't even beat a honda civic with it. I'd have a hard time getting my dad to let me get another m10 and sit with it in the garage while I made some cash to get a mild street setup for it. I only make about 100-150 a week because my job pays crap and I only work a few days a week at the most.

I love my e21 to dath and that's the main reason it's still around, and I'd just take it down a big swap or turbo route in the future anyway, so I might as well swap in the m42 that has a plan for it down the road. I think it'd be easier to swap an m42, grab a new fuel rail and crank/A/C pulley and throw a DASC on it to get a 'fast e21' than to grab another m10, grab an EFI system, grab turbo parts, and tune it all. Even though I know there is more power to be had from turbo systems, I'd really just like to go with the m42, get some decent and easy power out of it and call it a day by the time I hit 20.

Ok, I guess it's time to play a little balancing game:

M10 Pros:
1. Plops right in (BIG BONUS POINTS)
2. Damn near bullet proof, you saw how your M10 fared in its condition. Imagine how long a fresh one would last with proper maintenance?
3. Period correct. You won't dissapoint any purests (although who cares about them)
4. Off the shelf performance internals. Find me a set of low compression M42 pistons and you can drive down here and slap me for making custom ones.
M10 Cons:
1. You're back to square one, 100 hp, 100 ft/lb, give or take. This could be considered a good thing too.
2. Won't really turn many heads. That is until you do a cam and other stuff.
3. No fabrication work to be done. I personally enjoy this kind of stuff.

M42 Pros.
1. Performance
2. The shock quality. Although you won't shock anyone in arizona anymore, sorry :)
3. Technology. The M42 is just as bullet proof as the M10. Maybe even more so, with the direct fire ignition. No more distributor and no more ignition modules.
M42 Cons.
1. Not the easiest swap in the world. Time and patience and a welder required (probably). Do you have access to these kinds of things? Do you really want to tow the car down here to have me do it? Especially when I'll probably say wait until I'm done with school?
2. Not a big aftermarket. DASC sure, but we discussed what you'll have to do to make that work, and the kit isn't exactly cheap. Cams, sure... BUY TWO OF THEM!!! Solid lifters to make it rev higher? Of course... 2200 dollars please. Exhaust? Of course... oh wait, that's right it's in an E21. They don't make a supersprint or boral kit to bolt onto that kind of thing.

Here's the bottom line on my install. I put the motor where it wanted to go. It sits where it sits, if I wanted it higher, I probably couldn't have done it. Todd made those mounts, and I'm not sure where his motor is in relation to mine. I've seen pictures and it's pretty damn close. You'll have to find someone to cut and TIG the shift linkage. etc. etc.

Robbie, I'm not trying to discourage you, but make sure that you look at my webpage just one more time. Don't be amazed by the amazing photography or amazing journalism :) Instead look at the shear amount of things I had to accomplish to make that thing run. I'll be glad to help you, but do you really want me to do the swap for you? I didn't think so. I'm not so much impressed with the performance gains of the M42, but more with the fact that I can look under the hood of my car and say "I did that!". Jake was always at my side. And I'm always grateful for that. But he always said that "I did that".

If you're ready so am I. Just remember that I can't be there all the time. Think hard on this one. If it's what you want than don't let anyone convince you otherwise. When I was on the yahoo forums and started the project I got mixed reviews. Some thought the M42 was a boat anchor and wasn't worth the effort (I'll talk to them when the turbo is done). But I wanted to do it, and no one could stop me. Stick to your convictions. Hope this helps.

looks like you made a decision... disregard my last post!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I appriciate the post all the same Nic! I really think this is the way I want to go. Yeah, performance parts can be had somewhat easily for the M10, but they're expensive and few and far between. You have to deal with old as K-Jet before you can make the same power a DASCed m42 can. You'd end up spending about the same to make an m10 have as much power as DASCed m42.

I'm really leaning for the m42, because it's different. If I go DASC I'll be the ONLY person with a super charged m42 in the world that we know of. BF.c has a broad range of members, who each have different communites that they go to, and not a single one can post back here and say it's already been done. Custom fabbing is going to be a bitch, but some of that might be nullified if Todd would be so kind as to pop in with advice and some mounts for myself. I'm just opposed to going back to the m10 because I've looked and looked at performance stuff for it, and it's there, but it's not cheap, and it doesn't give much power. Where as the only thing that I'll want or need for the m42 is that DASC kit for 3-5k, which I'd be happy to shell out for. It'd make my car a condender with e36 M3's. And it would do it reliably without having to spend hours on a dyno setting up a custom EFI system.

M10 vs M42 is an interesting battle. The main reason I want to go to the m42 is the newer technology. There isn't as much after market support for it, I realise, but that's not what I really want. I don't care that there's not a dozen different headers or 5 companies that make cams, and another 3 that will make custom pistons to any spec I want. What I have my eyes set on is that DASC. I know I'm sounding childish, but I'm that little kid in a toy store right now who doesn't want anything but that new shiny toy. There's things that look and act just like it, but that's not important, I want that one.

I'll go and talk to a guy I found locally who has a BMW shop and is more than willing to help out with questions and see if he'd be willing to help me out, just mounting the m42 in there, and getting the driveline set up. After that I'll just talk with you (Nic) about the wires and hoses. Scott (of Scott's BMW Specialists) was most impressed that I was rebuilding the engine, I think he'll be flabber gasted that I want to throw an m42 in there.

But, I think, that this is what I want, for this car. I have (when the engine worked) a decent car, with a good stereo, and a fun suspension. When I'm done with EVERYTHING, I'll have a car that looks PIMP (Avus Blue + euro bumpers, front spoiler undecided), with a good sound system, a nice interior (recaro's or knockoffs, new carpet, renewed dash + console), with enough power to make new cars think "what the hell just happened?" if I want to.

To reiterate this topic, the choice of engine depends on your philosophy. I'm building an engine for my racer E21 with the "as cheap as possible" philosophy. This unevitably means cutting corners, but I will get ~160HP for under $200 from a 2.7 litre M20 block. I don't care if it burns oil or if it's not the optimal configuration of parts. It's for track-use only anyway. I use as many parts off my own shelves as possible. Only cost so far is a top-end gasket set, new head bolts and engine oil. The rest I got either for free or I had it laying around..

don't flame me or kick me off the forums.... but I been driving a AE86 Corolla and really liked its engine. TwinCam 16 valve, high reving rear wheel drive. Decent power and a lot of aftermarket support. Plus can be found for cheap, and has the proven Toyota reliability. After considering all the money to build my M10, m20 swap or M42 swap, that seems to be my priority now. A HACHIROKU BMW..... can you say drifter????

Dude, I would love to have an AE86, but I haven't seen a single one around :( It makes me very sad. I think you should build the engine up in the corrolla, don't swap it. It'd be a sweet swap, but I think it'd do the 86 more justice to have it's own. A 2jz swap on the other hand would be interesting. Running it stock would give the 320i more than enough power.

Oh boy, not that AE86 vs. E21 again :p

Sometime we have that discussion amongst friends. The AE86 guys swear by the longevity and stranght of the 4AGE powerplant. However, having seen one with the head off, the bore spacing is minimal. A m10, on the other hand :)

Someone has sugested me to swap the m10 for a 4AGE. I once "raced" and AE86. Well, I was in front of him on a highway and whenever I floored, I got maybe a 1/2 car lead. This was in-gear acceleration. If he downshifted first he would smoke me. It proves though that the 4AGE has little low rev torque.

Ups... getting a bit off-topic :p

SR20det or Rotary turbo would be two very hot swaps in that car.

Hey BetaTested, just wanted to let you know my AIM name is now SixPstn in case you want to get a hold of me about the M42.

I sent you an IM, but you haven't responed. I just want to know if it's a stick or an auto. Let me know and we'll go from there.

99% possitive it is a 5spd manual. I remember talking with Danny about gears going up Pauma Canyon one night, and then I was going to be buying the tranny originally when the stuff was up for sale (my car is a stick). I doubt he would have been trying to sell me a slush box to replace my 5spd.

Yeah, I talked with them again last night, it's looking like that will be what I pick up in a couple of weeks.

SR20det or Rotary turbo would be two very hot swaps in that car.

I'd love to see a rotary e21. :D

Rotary motors can be a bit fussy though for daily use....assuming you are going to be doing 'fun' things with it, like massive boost, which also leads to bad mpg figures. But they are very light, compact, and make very good power for their size.

The sr20det is a more viable non-BMW motor for most people though, due to availability and aftermarket. How many of us have good RX tuning shops near them (SD/LA people don't count....)?

Rotary motors can be a bit fussy though for daily use....assuming you are going to be doing 'fun' things with it, like massive boost, which also leads to bad mpg figures. But they are very light, compact, and make very good power for their size.

The sr20det is a more viable non-BMW motor for most people though, due to availability and aftermarket. How many of us have good RX tuning shops near them (SD/LA people don't count....)?

Not to mention that if you want to get a rotory motor that can withstand the high HP that those big "fun" turbos make, you will pay for it... bigtime... buddy of mine recently paid 8 grand including a core for a FD motor with ceramic seals and a bunch of other good stuff... why you ask? well he shattered a rotor in the first motor... His motor is only rated to take up to 600hp by pineapple racing... He estimates that he's putting 400 to the ground about now...

Cheers,
Jonas

Ahhhh... rotarys. You could always go more boost, and such... or just add an extra rotor :evil2

http://www.bimmerboys.com/webpage/DSC03392.JPG

http://www.bimmerboys.com/webpage/DSC03395.JPG

THAT is going to go in this:

http://www.bimmerboys.com/webpage/redpill/autocross/mazda1.jpg

A Mazda RX-2 that weighs about 500 lbs less than my E21. That's right, a 20B powered RX-2. I get the chills thinking about it. I hope Jake's dad lets me drive it :)

Ahhhh... rotarys. You could always go more boost, and such... or just add an extra rotor :evil2

A Mazda RX-2 that weighs about 500 lbs less than my E21. That's right, a 20B powered RX-2. I get the chills thinking about it. I hope Jake's dad lets me drive it :)

:evil2


Also ceramic seals are EXTREME overkill and dont belong in street cars, especially ones only pushing 400hp.
Bad tuning, overheating and over revving are the main causes of blowing a rotor. They're just not as detonation resistant as pistons but i still love em. :buttrock

Rotary motors can be a bit fussy though for daily use....assuming you are going to be doing 'fun' things with it, like massive boost, which also leads to bad mpg figures. But they are very light, compact, and make very good power for their size.

The sr20det is a more viable non-BMW motor for most people though, due to availability and aftermarket. How many of us have good RX tuning shops near them (SD/LA people don't count....)?

NYC/ Queens/ Bronx either :D :D

Yup....there are some hot shops on the East Coast that are great with them too....from what I've been told. And PR is big on them too, esp since they seem to have NO emissions laws there.

Anyway, a 20B might be a bit heavy for a RX2, but then again it is still WAAAY lighter than anything of comparable output in a regular piston type motor. They are great....but no where NEAR smog legal in CA. We don't get to see many of them around these parts. I for one would LOVE a Cosmos for a pimp cruiser, but they never brought them here. Where they even made in LHD?

Talk about OT with that.....

http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e21/5519454-1.html

Here is the link. Its on roadfly.

What do you guys think. Its pretty sweet, although I dont know what is on top of the strut housings. Are they balls or something?

Its an m50 in a white e21.

thanks

Joe

Ok guys I want to do a sr20det Red Top Swap And I am set on it. I know it will be the bastard bmw But I need the power. Do you Think there will be any big problems. I Just used this forum because you guys were talking about in it. I know about the company in canada and i did e-mail them but I still need some advice from you guys.

All this talk of the M50, what about the S50 (US spec, actually just a more aggressive M50)... I've seen one around here without the ECU, wiring harness, or alternator for $1k. Of course, there would need to be tons of other things to be bought as well (tranny, driveline strengthening items, brakes, suspension, etc...). But these are itmes that would have to be purchased with any swap adding considerably more power and weight...

Anyway, I'm also looking to build a kick-ass E21 sleeper, but I'm not so sure either what path to take... I don't really like japanese motors in a BMW, but I'm not gonna hate on someone for it, especially when they blow the doors off me. The route I was looking into was S50 or S52 possibly, but the weight gain just seems too much, especially after reinforcement.

Any input?

(Sorry, not trying to steal the thread, just looking for more info on the same subject you were interested in)

I am building a 2.8 liter stroker with knife edged 524 td crank and 325i port and polished head.

The m20 motors are readily available, why not do it?

They go in almost like stock for the 323i,
but my engine is not a stock 2.5 liter,

later,
Joe

is the sr20det from a nissan 200 sx s14(think most mite know it as a silvia??), are these a good choice for an e21, theres one sitting for years in a car in a scrapyard down the road from me and i never even considered it for an engine swap? think the turbo and exhaust manifold are missing but are these readily available aftermarket?

is the sr20det from a nissan 200 sx s14(think most mite know it as a silvia??), are these a good choice for an e21, theres one sitting for years in a car in a scrapyard down the road from me and i never even considered it for an engine swap? think the turbo and exhaust manifold are missing but are these readily available aftermarket?

Yeah the aftermarket is flooded with SR20DET options...

But I don't know if it was in the 200sx. I know it was in the 240sx...

this motor is an s14 anyway, 2000cc, turbo 16valve black rocker cover effort? maybe 180-200bhp ish? id like to think id be paying the equivalent of 800 usd or less for it engine, box and loom, not sure if its got the ecu, but def no turbo or exhaust manifold, thats why i walked on past it.

honestly those engines belong in a Datsun 510. But some E30 guy got it done.

The m50 and m20 are the same size, the m50 weighs just a few pounds more due to the second cam and a few other differences-not enough to notice I'm sure. There is also an Aluminum block available in 3.0L and 3.2L that weighs even less than the m20 engine.

If I were to do the m50/m52swap I would set the engine back a few inches to get better weight distribution... That requires reworking the firewall and trans tunnel but I'm up for it!

ken

Nic and I took slightly diferent routes to the same end. I used an adapter I delveoped between the 245 and the M42. The engine ended up about 1/2" - 3/4" from the firewall but I had to shorten the driveshaft and fiddle the rear shift linkage mount with my my die grinder. I am running a 2002tii flywheel, a matching clutch, and stock t/o bearing. The bell housing needed some cutting and welding to bolt up to the motor, one set of bolt holes overlapped.
I now have some instructions for converting a electronic speedo tranny to a cable speedo tranny from the '02 crowd and would probably use an E30/E36 tranny if I were to do it again.
I really like the M42 in the E21. I can almost keep up with an E36 325 if I keep it wound up and I get nearly 30mpg driving like "they" tell you not to.
I have CAD files for the adapter and the motor mounts. The mounts use an E30 318 mount on blocks that use existing holes in the cross member. Mine are cut out of billet as I was working at a place with a shop but you could cut them from some steel tubing and bar stock far cheaper.
Someone needs to get Nic a job so he can finish up his motor!!

Someone made the comment about low octane fuel here in CO. We can get by with less octane because of the altitude. I have been driving my car on regular for 3 years now and it has never knocked. It is running clean according to the state roller dyno test and even in 98deg weather at a track day doesn't knock.

There is also an Aluminum block available in 3.0L and 3.2L that weighs even less than the m20 engine.

The aluminum block M52 only came as a 2.8.

I saw an aluminum 3.0L block on ebay 3 weeks ago...
All the m50/52/54 in europe had aluminum blocks... I would expect the S engines to also have aluminum blocks...

ken

I saw an aluminum 3.0L block on ebay 3 weeks ago...
All the m50/52/54 in europe had aluminum blocks... I would expect the S engines to also have aluminum blocks...

ken

You probably saw an M54. They all have aluminum blocks, but are totatally different from M50/52's.

Where are you getting this info about the ECE M50's being alu? :confused

My bad, the m50 is iron, the m52 came in iron or aluminum after '94.

Source: http://www.bmwworld.com/engines/m52.htm
ken

Here in America we got no RWD sr20s. Those are all from overseas vehicles. The s13 or s14 in your junkyard has a KA24de if it has never had an engine swap. The 200sx b14 is a FWD car, the 2-door brother of the larger b14 Sentra. RWD sr20's are still fairly cheap and plentiful, however. But one word of caution from someone who has owned four sr20s: You will learn to hate valve tap when the engine starts. After more than about 60k miles they almost all do it, and for me it completely ruins the quality feel of a car.

Nick

well first and foremost lets put the s38 motor too heavy for this little e30 to rest. the s38 wieghs less than the s52 and less than the 12 lbs more than the m52 22lbs than the m50. but ultimatlely its about 73 lbs more than the normal. sure weight is altered but with the 3.91 or 4.10 lsd in the rear it will make life easier. also the biggest sway bars you can find spend the money. and reinforce the rear sway bar brackets. i have a 90 e30 with chip. ansa exhaust, intake filter, soon throttle body and fuel pressure reg. last two items together are about 600 together. too much for bolt ons. but hey its why you pay.

so enter the m6. a friend calls me up and wants to sell me a 87 m6. motor runs great. trans needs syncros. 258bhp and 243lbs/ft. that is great. evan has the lsd diff. looks like ill pick the car up for less than 300 bucks. needs lots of work. but id rather sell the body and keep the motor and trans. driveline and anything else i need. an m6 motor will fly especially the dohc 3.5l my e30 has about 212hp and im looking for a 3.91 or 4.10lsd to give me about 15lb/ft more torque. by then ill still be slower than the m motor and have spent more.

s38 is the best motor for the e30 for power and speed. not the best for handling but build up your ft struts and get thicker shaft struts and heavy springs and youll get someback. a little weight in the rear welded on wouldnt hurt since you can afford a little to help balance. remember about 10-15 hp for every 100lbs. but with the chip, intake, exhaust, headers, throttle body and lighter dual mass flywheel not too much lighter. youll be near the m3 numbers. the chip alone brings you to 280+ hp and when you bolt on and dyno expect near 300rwhp. no lie. so the s38 is the way to go. let the people bitch and say thats changing the bmw handling. well if they just put the s38 in it maybe they would have hooked it up.

ill be starting soon and evan if you cant find a s38 , the m30 3.5l 218hp will do. with a chip that baby is up to 250+hp. beled dat. ok i just looked it up a conforti chip for the m6 is 290hp and 280lbs of torque. wow. thats not bolting on anything. talk about smoking a m3 wow evan a m5. yeah yeah a turbo car can make 300 and be fast. but is it smog legal. well m6 is easier to deal with. so if you want rear power. m power you need a m motor. no m50 m52 s50 or s52 evan s54 wont compete. s38.

might take me a while but ill keep posted.

well first and foremost lets put the s38 motor too heavy for this little e30 to rest. the s38 wieghs less than the s52 and less than the 12 lbs more than the m52 22lbs than the m50. but ultimatlely its about 73 lbs more than the normal. sure weight is altered but with the 3.91 or 4.10 lsd in the rear it will make life easier. also the biggest sway bars you can find spend the money. and reinforce the rear sway bar brackets. i have a 90 e30 with chip. ansa exhaust, intake filter, soon throttle body and fuel pressure reg. last two items together are about 600 together. too much for bolt ons. but hey its why you pay.

so enter the m6. a friend calls me up and wants to sell me a 87 m6. motor runs great. trans needs syncros. 258bhp and 243lbs/ft. that is great. evan has the lsd diff. looks like ill pick the car up for less than 300 bucks. needs lots of work. but id rather sell the body and keep the motor and trans. driveline and anything else i need. an m6 motor will fly especially the dohc 3.5l my e30 has about 212hp and im looking for a 3.91 or 4.10lsd to give me about 15lb/ft more torque. by then ill still be slower than the m motor and have spent more.

s38 is the best motor for the e30 for power and speed. not the best for handling but build up your ft struts and get thicker shaft struts and heavy springs and youll get someback. a little weight in the rear welded on wouldnt hurt since you can afford a little to help balance. remember about 10-15 hp for every 100lbs. but with the chip, intake, exhaust, headers, throttle body and lighter dual mass flywheel not too much lighter. youll be near the m3 numbers. the chip alone brings you to 280+ hp and when you bolt on and dyno expect near 300rwhp. no lie. so the s38 is the way to go. let the people bitch and say thats changing the bmw handling. well if they just put the s38 in it maybe they would have hooked it up.

ill be starting soon and evan if you cant find a s38 , the m30 3.5l 218hp will do. with a chip that baby is up to 250+hp. beled dat. ok i just looked it up a conforti chip for the m6 is 290hp and 280lbs of torque. wow. thats not bolting on anything. talk about smoking a m3 wow evan a m5. yeah yeah a turbo car can make 300 and be fast. but is it smog legal. well m6 is easier to deal with. so if you want rear power. m power you need a m motor. no m50 m52 s50 or s52 evan s54 wont compete. s38.

might take me a while but ill keep posted.

I thought you where tuboing your m20?? I dont need to worry about emmisons, since my 323i is a 79 and is grandfathered in.
I have seen a M6 transplant into an e30. You have to fabricate a number of parts including motor mounts.

You can check with Mike Morris of scheneller BMW tuners in Newburyport MA as he his this exact transplant in his e30.

There also is a V*8 e30 running around.

later,
J

Have you thought about Bavarian auto recyclers? I live in Oregon, and 2 months ago they quoted me $750 (shipping inc!!) or so for a guarenteed good used 2.0L with a warentee. They check it for leaks and run it before they ship it. You can pay more and get a bigger warentee also. You can save more $$ and not get the whole engine; they will sell just the bottom end too. Give them a call! I decided to go local and either pick up an engine/tranny from a local enthusiast or rebuild the 1.8 I have. I still need to go to the shop and see how much it would be to have them dissassemble the lower end. I could afford it IF I didn't have to replace the pistons.

John

BetaTested, you ever get that M42 in there? Though I guess you are a bit of a drive, I have an M42 for sale. I wrecked my e30 a while back, but the engine & tranny are not hurt. If anyone wants it, we can talk. I do not think I will be able to do an e21 M42 swap while still in college.

You wrecked that beautiful iS? Ohhhhhh. That is the only car I would trade my 320iS for, is a 91 318iS like yours. What happened? Are there any mods to the engine?

waferma

Basically, do not speed, and do not get your car in a fight with a tree...the tree will win. The engine is stock internally. I was actually testing out the MegaSquirt + Wideband when I crashed it...got a bit too excitex with the gas I suppose. I recently rebuilt the timing assy and have maintained it pretty meticulously.

I'm in north bay... How much for the m42??

ken

I'm doing a m52 swap on my 78 320i. Does anyone know what the best tranny driveline set up would be best for it?

I'm doing a m52 swap on my 78 320i. Does anyone know what the best tranny driveline set up would be best for it?

I heard that you can use the e21 323i m20 tranny but it meets up with the m52 engine at a very strange angle. It works but the angle stinks, and I have not heard what the work around to this is..

I have a 524 td crank. Its forged and out a 524 turbo diesel.
Currently its at the machine shop being knife edged along with the lightened 325i flywheel. You can rev this crank to infinifty. Lol. To 6-6500 rpms.


:confused my m10 has seen 8k a few times :devillook

And that engine weight list seems WAY off. Factory manual claims 305lbs for a Carbed m10.

maybe those weights are for a bare block and head with no manifolds or acessories.

I think the m42 would be an excellent swap in a e21. I absolutely love my 318is. How much do e21's weigh anyway? my e30 is down to about 2490 in auto-x trim.

TheNeek has an M42 in his e21.
Jake

He has posted quite a bit in this thread as well.