http://www.northeastpaintball.org/albums/crap/IMG_0022.sized.jpg


So Jason and I were up to some stuff for the past two days. What we found was disturbing and really quite amazing. Proves that the m10 is one fucking die hard engine. I'm supprised that it was running as well as it was with a head that looks like this:
http://www.northeastpaintball.org/albums/crap/IMG_0004.sized.jpg

The tops of the pistons are pretty bad too.
http://www.northeastpaintball.org/albums/crap/IMG_0008.sized.jpg

But it's all out right now, and I'm going to be cleaning my engine bay and under body as much as I can tomorrow. I'll get some of that wonderfully nasty acid based stuff that shouldn't touch wires, rubber or human flesh and coat as much of the engine bay as I can in it. I'll also take the liberty of cleaning up my block and valve cover bell housing ect ect, just to get all of the grime off of it that's built up.

We did fairly well, got everything out in 2 days of semi serious 7ish hours of work (with a 1 hour break each day for lunch). No serious injuries, but a few kuckle busters. But I did end up getting attacked by the wiring harness before all was said and done.
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Nice! Looks like some progress has been made.

well done fellas... what are the plans for the motor?

I'm going to get the head into a machine shop to get redone. I'll probably leave the rest of it alone. Probably going tobe popping in a 284 street cam as well. When it's all put back together I'm going to leave the radiator fan off and go eletric.

The head was just totally trashed from the PO not taking care of it at all. The HG was leaking all sorts of stuff over it's lifetime, as you can see on the sides of the block, intake especially, there's a trail of black inbetween two fairly clean sides. As we were getting the tranny out infact the engine just started leaking coolant that refused to come out the day before, took us a while to figure out where because it was seeping from under the head gasket.

The tranny will probably get new seals as well. The output flange is shot (I'll post some pics tomorrow of what I've been talking about) so it'll be replaced as well, if I can find someplace to do it.

Beta,
Instead of cleaning the block and stuff yourself, you could take it to a machine shop. Most of them have these jet washing things that'll eat the paint off walls. Probably pretty inexspencive, I just dropped a bunch of stuff off today (upper oil pan, timing chain covers... etc.) at my machine shop to get cleaned.

You might want to look into a new piston and ring set while you're at it. Should be pretty cheap for an M10 rebuild kit. You'll just have to get the bore measured.

Good stuff. Your pictures always bring a smile to my face. Let me know if you guys need some weekend help before the school semester starts.

yeah, i had a great time helping rip out that little beast (lol, cept for the exhaust, if u ever want to get rid of that let me know so i can beat the crap out of it then blow it up).

ah man, and working in that garage is nice!!! w/ the evap cooler, we barely broke a sweat eventhough it was 105 & decently humid outside.

If your getting the head done they might even hot tank the other parts at no extra charge, my dad got all his parts hot tanked for 15 bucks and they gave them back the next day.

Geez that head looks horrible

Eh, I'll just do it myself. I'm not in much of a hurry to get back over to my mom's apartment, and I honestly don't mind doing it. Putting in a little extra work wouldn't hurt it.

Yeah, I love that evap cooler. It's warm in there, but you don't really notice it. You walk into the house and you know it's colder, but still. Hopefully the good daytime weather will hold for me again. If the humidity gets much higher that cooler isn't going to help too much.

I'll inquire about a new piston and ring set, but I doubt that I'll have that much money, or that my dad would be willing to spend that much on it. I'd honestly like to have this thing totally rebuilt, but just refurbishing the head will be enough this time around. The bottom end has been holding up well, and the cylinder walls are still smooth.

Well, I might get it hot tanked then.

The head really was horrible, there's about 1/8th of an inch of crap over everything except the cam lobes and the timing chain.

That's a bit worse than what Echo's head in his 535is looks like, under the valve cover at least. A bunch of that grime is just build up over time. How many miles are on the head?

Good luck with everything!!!!

Damn that head looks bad. Nice job pulling it out and good luck!

Only 86000 on my car, so the last owner really just beat the shit out of it. The clutch was dead, it leaked oil, the driveshaft was gone, the interior is in poor shape with spills n such. The guy didn't care about his car. It's a long process fixing all those years of neglect.

UPDATE:

Found a machine shop and shop for the transmission. Will be dropping both off shortly. Re found the hole in the transmission that was caused by the output flange ripping apart. It's right under the shaft that comes out for the shift linkage, when we had the transmission upside down while we were cleaning it last night and fluid started to spew forth. We recovered the hole with some silicone and will inquire with the shop for transmissions about a fix/replacement peice.

Parts also showed up yesterday, which was somewhat disappointing. My Ansa muffler I ordered for $60 was just a stock replacement and not the free flow like I was hoping. The head set will be dropped with the machine shop for the head rebuild to provide parts (namely valve seals).

Anyway, I've got some driving to do.

Update:

Shop calls while I'm at work and leaves a message, I call them back today. Shop says the head was looking really good and like a nice candidate for a perfect rebuild, until more of the gunk comes off. The previous owner didn't keep up on anti-freeze. As such the head had been corroding itself from the inside out, eating away at it. There are holes from the inside of the head to the sparkplug threadings. I've still gotta pay the shop $50 for the cleanup work, and I'm going to take the sucker home and document it as a testiment to the abuse an m10 will put up with. So much for my engine hitting 300k, because I'm going to have to get a new one.

So Jason, Nic, Matt(if you get back from the east coast) where would you suggest getting a new engine? Because mine isn't going to cut it.

So Jason, Nic, Matt(if you get back from the east coast) where would you suggest getting a new engine? Because mine isn't going to cut it.

Ok, well im obviously not one of those guys, although, i might have a suggestion? How about Korman or TEP??? Don't they rebuild motors??? I think you could get a sweet motor from one of those places! although, i could be wrong... checking them out couldn't hurt thought right? good luck... Wish i was in AZ so i could help out!

Cheers,
Jonas

While they DO rebuild motors, they require cores, good cores, ones that haven't been corroded because they had zero anti-freeze in the coolant lines. From the sounds of the guy at the shop, he wouldn't trust the head as far as he could throw it, and he had NEVER seen anything like this before.

I haven't gone out and looked at it yet, but from the sounds of it, if you took a look at a good normal stock one, then at mine, you would noticed that mine doesn't have as much metal left on any of the inside parts. Which is a no no. There are holes from the inside of the head to the sparkplug threading. There is no way to tell just how thick the sides of the head are now, but they shouldn't be trusted. That's not something that can be rebuilt, that's something to melt down for scrap metal.

edit

Not to mention the entire point of me rebuilding the engine myself was to save $$$, something that wouldn't happen if you talk to Korman or TEP.

Actually....you CAN talk to TEP about that. They sell full rebuild KITS, where you buy the parts from them, then YOU do the work on the motor yourself. Atilla and CJ please correct me if I'm wrong, esp since I was planning on doing this myself with the M10 and the M102 (before attempting too much on the S14! :D ).

They should both have heads you can buy outright. But if you need a motor itself and don't want to pay an arm and a leg, then a junkyard might be your best bet. You should be able to get it pretty cheap from one of them, IF you can find one that is.

The head on my...err....JOEY's '81 320i is from Bavarian Engine Exchange, or whatever they are calling themselves this month. It was purchased by the owner before me, and he THOUGHT he was buying their performance optioned head (15% extra power, probably porting work and maybe a mild cam). I called them when I was getting ready to buy the '83 though since I wanted to know what was done to the thing, and they said their records show him buying an OEM spec head. Sounds shady to me, since I am friends with the PO and he told me this about the head BEFORE we ever thought about me buying the car. I believe he spent $900 shipped for it, but I think that was after the core was returned ($200 core charge maybe?). Not sure how this plays into your budget.....


EDIT:
Here's a link for The Euro Depot's (http://www.theeurodepot.com/usede2111.html) e21 motor stuff. Those prices are pretty good or used stuff. But I'm not sure if that is what you're looking at or not. It would be worth investigating though.

At this point, I see this as a swipe of good luck. It gives me a good excuse to have my dad shell out some cash for a better engine before I've saved up to do it. My dad is going to be calling the new engine my Xmas-birthday (Jan 6th B-day) present, and probably calling it a day. Not to mention, he's damned happy that I've been getting off my arse and getting more work done on the car.

For now though, it shall be rolled back out of the garage, and covered up, to await it's new heart to renew it's battered spirit. I honestly like what I'm doing to this car, because most other people would have tossed it to the junk yard a long time ago. I like to think I'm saving it.

You ARE saving it!!! And I (now) know you've got the other thread going about the motor swap, but figured that you might want this info here just in case.....

Time for a motorswap... m20 or m50... your choice.

Time for a motorswap... m20 or m50... your choice.

I would rather have an M10 than an M20... :rolleyes:

I would rather have an M10 than an M20... :rolleyes:

Why? i have the M20B25 in mine, and couldn't be happier???

Why? i have the M20B25 in mine, and couldn't be happier???

You would sure as shit be happier w/ an M50.

What'd you end up doing with your old car James? Wasn't it just the oil pan that got clobbered?

I bought the car robbie... That engine will become my turbo engine.

Ahhh, ok. Hop on AIM duder

You would sure as shit be happier w/ an M50.

I sure as shit wouldn't.... I don't like the E36 or anything about them (for the most part; there are exceptions) The M50 is heavier and doesn't produce all that much more power than my M20 with the cam. Not to mention, we were trying to keep a "vintage" feel with the car, and the M50 would not achieve that at all.... Plus, if vanos breaks, its fucking expensive to fix... Plus apparently, M50's like to go through head gaskets...

Cheers,
Jonas

I was under the impression the m50 is lighter than the m20?

From what I gather, only if you get your hands on a euro aluminum block. All m50's that came to the states had the cast iron blocks. Thusly, still heavy.

The US Z3 2.8's had an aluminum M52.

If you dont like VANOS so much, you know you can get M50's without it right? I rarely see VANOS units crap out anyways.

I still dont get all these old school guys who hate technology....

It's not really HATING the new tech, it is not liking to deal with it. VANOS is great, Valvetronic seems friggin amazing! But trying to deal with those types of things on a 20+ year old vehicle that is NOT under warranty anymore is not something my wallet can really afford. The M50, in all its modern tech STILL has issues. And a lot of them are also issues that the M20 had too (head gaskets/overheating). The M10 was pretty bullet proof. As Beta has shown, you can drive the crap out of the motor, damage it pretty well and it STILL keeps running. I can also say the same thing about my M20 that I had (unknowingly) cracked the head on and was STILL able to get up above 120mph on I5 coming through the Central Valley in CA. It did not break down on me, but luckily shortly after that the problem was discovered or else it WOULD have left me on the side of the road somewhere.

Anyway, the regular M50 is heavier than the M20. Come on, it has twin cams and does NOT have an aluminum block, you do the math. The M52B28 that came in the Z3 Roadsters for a little bit did have an aluminum block like m42technic has said, but that motor is hard to come by and VERY pricey. Beyond that it is OBDII, so trying to either convert the car to OBDII with a ton of (basically useless) sensors or converting the motor to OBDI (easier and more practical) would again take a LOT of money. There are nice things about the M50 (timing chain, self adjusting valves, VANOS on certain years), but to some it isn't worth the extra effort to do something THAT custom. The M20 drops in with a subframe from the 323i-320/6 cars. It can be done, but isn't as painless.

Well, as it is, he just is going to have to try to shop within his means. That might rule out the M50 period. We'll see, esp after he gets in contact with Danny that has the e30 M42 motor/tranny/ECU.

It's not really HATING the new tech, it is not liking to deal with it. VANOS is great, Valvetronic seems friggin amazing! But trying to deal with those types of things on a 20+ year old vehicle that is NOT under warranty anymore is not something my wallet can really afford. The M50, in all its modern tech STILL has issues. And a lot of them are also issues that the M20 had too (head gaskets/overheating). The M10 was pretty bullet proof. As Beta has shown, you can drive the crap out of the motor, damage it pretty well and it STILL keeps running. I can also say the same thing about my M20 that I had (unknowingly) cracked the head on and was STILL able to get up above 120mph on I5 coming through the Central Valley in CA. It did not break down on me, but luckily shortly after that the problem was discovered or else it WOULD have left me on the side of the road somewhere.

Anyway, the regular M50 is heavier than the M20. Come on, it has twin cams and does NOT have an aluminum block, you do the math. The M52B28 that came in the Z3 Roadsters for a little bit did have an aluminum block like m42technic has said, but that motor is hard to come by and VERY pricey. Beyond that it is OBDII, so trying to either convert the car to OBDII with a ton of (basically useless) sensors or converting the motor to OBDI (easier and more practical) would again take a LOT of money. There are nice things about the M50 (timing chain, self adjusting valves, VANOS on certain years), but to some it isn't worth the extra effort to do something THAT custom. The M20 drops in with a subframe from the 323i-320/6 cars. It can be done, but isn't as painless.

Well, as it is, he just is going to have to try to shop within his means. That might rule out the M50 period. We'll see, esp after he gets in contact with Danny that has the e30 M42 motor/tranny/ECU.

I agree with what youre saying. I was never saying that the M50 is Rob's best bet for a motor swap. My point was that if someone was willing to go ahead and put a heavy motor into an E21, I would definitely recommend doing an M50 rather than an M20. You can esaily get a mild M50 to make as much power as a balls to the wall (even a 3 liter) M20 any day of the week. All in all, I'd rather just see a hot M10 (or M42 even) go back in Rob's car. Im guess Im one of those guys (just like you Doug) who values handling just as much as power.

All in all, I'd rather just see a hot M10 (or M42 even) go back in Rob's car. Im guess Im one of those guys (just like you Doug) who values handling just as much as power.

If you would prefer an ancient piece of IC technology versus a newer and more efficient engine, be my guest. But that doesn't mean you should tell other people to do the same.

If he used an aluminum block M52 he could easily make 200rwhp and have close to the same weight as the M42. Not to mention that the additional, if any, weight can be taken care of with a properly setup suspension.

At this point the choice is obvious if he has the money. As far as im concerned the oly reason to put an M10/42 back in that car would be nostalgia.

:)

If you would prefer an ancient piece of IC technology versus a newer and more efficient engine, be my guest. But that doesn't mean you should tell other people to do the same.

If he used an aluminum block M52 he could easily make 200rwhp and have close to the same weight as the M42. Not to mention that the additional, if any, weight can be taken care of with a properly setup suspension.

At this point the choice is obvious if he has the money. As far as im concerned the oly reason to put an M10/42 back in that car would be nostalgia.

:)

I thought we have already been over this? While I said I would prefer to run an Aluminum M52 just as much as you, this goes back to Rob shopping within his means. Its easy to tell someone to run an M52 in an E21, but to actually do the swap is another thing.

At this point the reason I'm going to put an m42/44 in the e21 is COST!!!! I only have about 2k MAX to spend on parts, and I'm going to be doing as much of the labor as I can myself.

That and I would consider a 6 swap, but I don't really want the weight up front. I don't want to screw with the handling I had just made oh so much better by running Billstien Sports and H&R springs.

If you have an m52 with a transmission, ecu and harness you'd be willing to sell me for 2k I'll take it, but otherwise I'll go with an m42 for less than 1k.

If you have an m52 with a transmission, ecu and harness you'd be willing to sell me for 2k I'll take it, but otherwise I'll go with an m42 for less than 1k.

I have an S52, but I'd want a little more than $2k. Engine, tranny, ECU the works :D

Yea it does look like an M42 is the best bet for you. :buttrock

OK, to try and bring BOTH camps together, the M42/M44 actually IS the same technology as the M50/52 motors, minus the VANOS (except for maybe the M44, don't know a lot about that motor myself). The M42 is basically a 4 cylinder version of the M50 non-VANOS motor from what I've read, isn't it? So at that point he IS sticking with the light weight of a 4 banger, no extra weight out front, and is getting a dose of newer tech. Right?

And yes, I do like light, nimble cars. I have a BMW big block 6 with a turbo that is WAITING for a car to go into, but I can't bring myself to swap out one of my perfectly good (in most cases) 4 bangers to put that thing into, since it will kill the cars I've got. The car closest to the knife right now is the e21, but that would also be the one that takes the most effort to shoehorn that thing into. So in the meantime I'm just looking for ways to make these Furious Fours have even more power, within my means.

Not much different than what Beta is doing! And it seems we are all starting to come around on the M42 idea anyway, esp since he can get a hold of one for a decent price....

Heh, I plan to [way in the future]:

Purchase an E21 as a daily driver
Take the M42 out of my E36, put a new motor + manual tranny in the E36, rip interior out, go driving schools/BMWCCA Racing
While this is being done, drive the E21
When E36 is finished, put the M42 into the E21.

Woot.

Of course, I just need to win the lottery first... :|

Actually you wouldn't need to win the lottery. You can get the e21 for under a grand, as seen by how many have traded hands on here in the last 6 months for that little (Echo's not included in that since it is a 323i). The new tranny and motor for the e36 I'm guessing will be at least a 2.5L M50, if not a 3.0L or maybe even stepping up to the M52 family. That would be you're only real expesive part, unless you get one of the good deals that are going around on the 2.5L motors since everyone is ditching those in favor of the bigger motors that came in the US spec M3. You have the suspension stuff already by the looks of your sig....

This is me assuming you are going to try the work yourself....

FWIW, I bought my e30 M42 powered car when it wasn't running. The thing only needed a battery, but since I have a 3.3L single cam motor sitting around I figured I would drop that into the e30 and put the M42 into the e21. I just can't bring myself to kill the perfectly good daily car that the e30 is though....although I don't have your suspension set-up though. That might have me lusting for more power as I'm sure you are...

Looks like I will have a busy few months if everyone starts getting M42's and dropping them in an E21. I think the M42 is a perfect engine for the E21. Not many people give it the respect it deserves, first, because they are usually referring to the engine as it sits in an E36. Go back two body styles and you've lost about 600 lbs.

I'm not saying my swap doesn't have problems, it does. It has some weird AFR problem that I'm running into and there is the ever elusive warm start flooding problem. none of these keep the car from running, just keep it from performing as well as I would like. So don't have any elusions about this "high tech" engine being worry free. It was built to be that way, but 14 years can take a lot out of an engine.

I guess I should get started on making more of those front subframes :)

Won't need to worry about me putting an engine into anything for quite some time... this is way ahead in the future. I have to graduate college first, get married, find a job...

Then cars. :D

Guys, I have seen at the Bavarian Auto show a yellow 323i with an m50 2.5 24v engine in the front. It retained the stock tranny and supposedably went in a couple of days.

I have pictures if anyone out there wants to see this conversion.
It also had a computer chip upgrade.

I have also seen a m50/M52 into the e30, and even a v8 into the e30.
The e30s made about 185 hp and needed the tranny changed, plus wiring issues.

The one witht he V*8* was out of 5 er and Damon' 325 featured in euro turner. Its crazy fast and very nice.

Looking at all the conversions I would rather have the custom 2.8 liter stroker that I am building. It goes in stock, and can be reved to 6500 rpms.
So yeah call me stupid, I dont care. I love metric mechanic engines,
and the stroker is fine for me. I have a ton of money in my 323i already.

Thanks

Joe G
79 323i