I disagree with John D. though about track. You "can" drive at your own pace. My co-worker is just like you (c32 amg guy). He does not want to wreck the car and drives at a speed he is comfortable with. He has no problems being the slowest novice out there. In CCA and Car Guys, there are no egomaniacs out there (at least in my groups that I've been in). You drive at your pace. A lot of us could be bumped into advanced but decline and remain in intermediate -- just b/c we don't want to drive that fast. I'm comfortable going at my own pace. I mean, like I told others, I was lapped by a miata a couple of times, etc ... but, I don't care. I'm not there to prove I am a fast driver, I'm there to improve myself ... who cares what others think of how fast I "should" be going.
Yeah, you can drive your own pace, but if it's going to be slow, maybe you shouldn't be coming to the track. No offense, but while I don't doubt you were ok with being lapped by a miata, I wonder how the guy driving the miata felt about all the traffic. Being the one who's always doing the passing is probably an ego boost in a miata, but only for a while. The effects of traffic are mitigated somewhat if the slow guys have enough sense to give liberal and early point-bys, but it's still no fun getting stuck for a lap or two behind some sunday driver and his train going 20mph too slow until you get to the next viable passing zone.

I question how much you can really be learning at those speeds, as well. I am a pretty cautious driver and generally stay well within my and the car's limits. I have to drive it back home, too. Yet, when I get stuck behind the people I lap in a 20 or 30 minute session, I feel like I'm on my cool down lap. I can drive anywhere I want to on the track, on or off the line; I can check all my gauges; I have to be careful to remember not to try to downshift at some points, because there's a big difference between the usual 4->3 and 3->2; I can drive one handed while I adjust my helmet or scratch my nose or whatever. So, what are people learning at these speeds? How comfortable driving on the race track can feel?

Oh, whatever. Just ranting after spending half of last weekend behind these people. Remember, though, that you're going to be bumped up into intermediate if you've been doing this for a while, but if you're just taking the car out for that sunday drive, maybe you should request to run in novice. It would be considerate.

Expecting a LONG dissertation-type reply by James with multiple uses of the word FCUK. in 3.....2........1



:D

Expecting a LONG dissertation-type reply by James with multiple uses of the word FCUK. in 3.....2........1



:D

Heh. That's cool. As long as he doesn't lay down any compound fractures on me or anything -- I read that fist fight topic a few weeks back.
:eek:

I guess one would have to define slow. I don't know what my entry and exit speeds are at SPR but coming out of Hogpen at VIR I'm ~80. I am working towards exiting at 85. I'm sure there are people exiting at higher speeds and since many people have modified suspension, higher speeds are pretty easy to come by. My speed at the end of the straight is usually around 110-115. Some people are hitting 135 or more. I think the important thing at the end of the straight is your braking mark. I see people coasting into the turn. I try to brake moderately hard and get off. I do tend to brake to much as most people do.

I am one of those who give early point-bys and don't hold up traffic. On occassion other people are holding me up and if I don't get by or there is too much traffic I pit for 30 seconds. I pass more people in the rain than at any other times. Last time at VIR we did no brakes. I started fading towards the back then started working my way back up.

And a lot depends on the school. When I did a DelVA/NJ school I was in the middle of fully prepped race cars. I felt like I was on SpeedVision. I was slow!! Porsche schools are wickedly fast except in the turns. I'm slow on the straights, quick in the turns.

I have never had a problem who was even more cautious than me. I do have problems with those who are looking to set track records in a DE. There can be a coexistence.

I guess one would have to define slow.

Well, you're not going slow like I'm talking about, and you're working at going faster, as well. I'd probably pass you in a session, but I doubt very many people would be lapping you.

Anyway, the straight is the best place to be slow, obviously, since people can actually pass you there. Nothing more annoying than the guy who can't corner, but who can mash the pedal to the floor on the straights. "Gee, how come no one is taking my point-bys?"

I'm hardly about setting lap records, but make no mistake, I go to driver's schools for the specific purpose of learning how to drive my car well at high speeds. I feel like, barring extreme car disparities, there shouldn't be anyone in my group so slow that I can lap them, because that indicates that they haven't learned enough to be in that group yet. 10+ seconds a lap is a long time.

you can drive your own pace, but if it's going to be slow, maybe you shouldn't be coming to the track.

damn! Zach take it easy on em' ;) harsh :stickoutt ... people are just tryin' to learn at their own pace at DE's and there are so many types of drivers there...some may not be comfortable with speed...you should move to a faster run group you speed demon you ;) :D :) ...

actually, try some open track lapping days or some advanced drivers days (NJ BMW CCA is having one at Summit in like a month!)

Not trying to be a jerk, but did you go 10/10th's on your first DE? Did you innately have these skills that allowed you drive? I mean, how do I know how fast I "should" be going. Should we discourage new people from coming to the track because we are too slow for you?

I question how much you can really be learning at those speeds, as well.

Didn't know you were an instructor.

Maybe it's time to go W2W, JPM.

Sorry for the rant, man, but damn. Relax.

Only objection I have is when people are braking where you don't expect them to. But I blame the instructor more than the driver. If someone is braking inconsistently they probably should run in a novice group until they are a little more comfortable.

I don't mind slower drivers. Afterall, I am one. I just am not ready for someone braking in hogpen or the climbing esses. My attention is split between looking through the car in front and what the car in front is doing.

Not trying to be a jerk, but did you go 10/10th's on your first DE? Did you innately have these skills that allowed you drive? I mean, how do I know how fast I "should" be going. Should we discourage new people from coming to the track because we are too slow for you?

No, I didn't go 10/10ths my first time out. Further, note, I'm not ranting about novice group drivers. The novice group is a great place to learn about driving around the track at a sedate pace to learn the line, etc. I'm ranting about intermediate+ drivers who drive as though they're in the novice groups. This is my whole point. The people I'm talking about are not intermediate level drivers. They may have done several events or whatever, but they haven't gotten "it" yet, and are a menace and a drag on the track. If they're not going to "check their egos" at the door and drive in novice, then yes, I absolutely would like to discourage them from coming to the track.

I don't know how fast you "should" be going in any generic case at the track, but I do know roughly how fast you should be going in any specific group. If you're getting lapped by someone in your own group who's in anything short of a GT3, I can be pretty sure that you're in the wrong group.

I _still_ don't go 10/10ths. As I said above, I drive WELL within my limits and the car's limits, probably more like 8/10ths. I have tons and tons left to learn. But when there are too many novice drivers in my group, it becomes difficult or impossible to "learn at my own pace." And when I have to move up to the solo group, I'm out the instructor which I believe I'm still likely to benefit from. Hence the rant.

Only objection I have is when people are braking where you don't expect them to. But I blame the instructor more than the driver. If someone is braking inconsistently they probably should run in a novice group until they are a little more comfortable.

I don't mind slower drivers. Afterall, I am one. I just am not ready for someone braking in hogpen or the climbing esses. My attention is split between looking through the car in front and what the car in front is doing.

I agree with that up to a point. I stand by my statement that someone getting lapped almost certainly doesn't belong in whatever group they're driving in. But it's not the end of the world for the other drivers as long as the slowpokes don't do any of the following:

A) Pull dangerous shit like pitting out at 50mph right onto the line. That happened last time I was at the track, when I was going around 110 or 115 at the kink on VIR's front straight, and my instructor and I were so freaked out/pissed we didn't even think to get the car's number. Unfortunately, all those 911s look the same, so we couldn't protest.

B) Put the brakes on in the middle of hogpen or south bend or the chute or wherever.

C) Build big trains by rocketing down the straights or just plain being stingy with point-bys. Yeah, sure, I can pit in, but I've basically got to waste an entire lap waiting or I'll catch up to the guy again. If people drive courteously and reasonably well, there's no reason for these trains to form in the first place.

damn! Zach take it easy on em' ;) harsh :stickoutt ... people are just tryin' to learn at their own pace at DE's and there are so many types of drivers there...some may not be comfortable with speed...you should move to a faster run group you speed demon you ;) :D :) ...

actually, try some open track lapping days or some advanced drivers days (NJ BMW CCA is having one at Summit in like a month!)

Heh. Christ, it's a rant. Damn right I'm being harsh. :mad111: ;)

I think it's totally cool for people to learn at their own pace, as long as they're realistic about what that pace is and they're not hindering OTHER people from learning at THEIR own pace.

I suppose I will move up to a faster run group, but again, that virtually guarantees I won't have an instructor. Oh, well. I'll live.

If I ever get around to buying a pure track car that I can afford to write off if I wreck, then I'll check some open lapping days. In the meantime, I think I'm going to try and move my local chapter to the NJ region so I can run with those guys in general.

You can also have a dual membership with other chapters. I'm a member of Northern Ohio, GVC and Tarheel.

Porsche schools are difficult [VIR]. For me it's tough to get a point-by and when I do it's a drag race down the back straight. By the time I hit Madison Avenue I give up and fall behind.

It is not unusal for an instructor to make a suggestion to the CI to either move his student up or down or recommend someone else to move up or down. Or just be sure you grid before the slow car. There was one car that would NEVER give me a point by. I gridded one in front of him the next time and almost lapped him. I didn't care that he was slow. He just never looked in his mirrors! Next time don't get frustrated and talk to the CI. You deserve to get as much of your session as the next guy. Don't forget though, there will me more sessions.

I think anyone really trying to learn and challenge themselves will encounter slower traffic. Except for one session with Car Guys, i don't think i've ever had one complete session w/o being held up. It's just something we deal with, unless you can afford to rent out the entire track for yourself.

Instead of getting frustrated when i see a train/heavy traffic, i just find ways to deal with it so my learning isn't affected. Sometimes I'll pit for a few to let the cars space out. Or i'll just slow down in between turns, then speed up again to approach the same corner entry speeds while leaving enough space to allow for fast exit speeds also. I find that when i do this, even the most stubborn drivers will get a clue and possibly throw a point. I really hate when i see the quicker people hound people for point by's as if there are bragging rights earned or something.

I do agree though about some people not being in the correct groups. If i can lap some people driving sports cars with well over 300 hp in my 325is, they don't belong there. The run groups are supposed to run at a similar pace, but it never ends up like that. I would really like if more clubs would allow passing anywhere with a point by in the more advanced groups to prevent trains.

I think document has some valid points. First, as he mentioned, his comments do not apply to the novice group and shouldn't.

This past Sunday I was at Jefferson, a short and tight circuit; and I was in the B group. There were 5 of us, out of 14 or 15, that were at a faster pace (2 E46 M3s, 1 Evo and 2 STis). On the third session of the day, we all got lined up behind a series of slwer cars and I was the last in line. By the time 4 of us could get point-bys one by one through bunch of these cars, half of the session was over and we wasted rougly 7 to 9 laps by that time. Worse, by brakes started to overheat due to braking earlier and longer in trafic. It was not pleasent, but I did not get frustrated; gave me time to talk with the instructor about various things :)

I wish, however, that the guys in front would be a little more considerate and give the point-bys a little earlier and then try to keep up from behind, not when in front.

As my instructor said, everyone can be fast on the straights, but corners...

The JC can be a tough track to deal with traffic. The straights are short but you can still get people around you if you are paying attention.

If someone is slowing me up I too back off and concentrate on my line. I actually like being slowed up when I am having trouble or trying a different line through a turn. Especially when my instructor is talking me through it. I get the most out of parade laps for that reason. The object is not speed but smoothness. Speed comes with smoothness.

Something that goes into selecting run groups.
Most schools simply go by the number of schools you have attended.
At schools where many people trailer their cars I usually ask to go down one group where they think I should be in.

When a school base the run group on number of schools, type of car and comments from previous instructors you get a better mix. It's never perfect and all depends on how you grid. If you are fast you should be the first to grid.

At NCC schools they are looking for consistentcy and predictability. I enjoy running in A at NCC schools because I trust everyone around me. The same is not true elsewhere.

As my instructor said, everyone can be fast on the straights, but corners...
Yep, anyone can drive fast going straight. Straights are my boring part. I look who is behind me as I enter the last turn before a straight. Give my point-by. Check the gauges. Stretch my fingers. Relax my hands on the wheel and take some deep breathes.

Yep, anyone can drive fast going straight. Straights are my boring part. I look who is behind me as I enter the last turn before a straight. Give my point-by. Check the gauges. Stretch my fingers. Relax my hands on the wheel and take some deep breathes.

That's EXACTLY what my instructor said. He broke Summit Point down into two groups. The talented sections and the talentless sections. Guess which category the straight fell into. ;)

He also said that it takes a fast driver to go fast in the talented section and a fast car to go fast in the straights.

That instructor was soooo cool. VERY knowledgeable and supportive.

That's EXACTLY what my instructor said. He broke Summit Point down into two groups. The talented sections and the talentless sections. Guess which category the straight fell into. ;)

He also said that it takes a fast driver to go fast in the talented section and a fast car to go fast in the straights.

That instructor was soooo cool. VERY knowledgeable and supportive.

So your instructor was making fun of you through the entire course?

---Eric

So your instructor was making fun of you through the entire course?

---Eric

:lol:

Ok Zack, I see where you are coming from. One of the BSR instructors (Sunir and Andy know him-Gregg) was telling me about these Corvettes that would hold him up in the turns where he would be right on their tail to the point he would have to back off but then on the straight just open it up only to have them slow him up again.

My second DE, during my afternoon session, I remember there was this IS300 that I could pull away from in the straight, but he was a good driver and would be right up on me on the rest of the course. After 2 laps, I let up on the throttle on the straight and pointed him by-why should I ruin his day. The instructor didn't let me point him by initially just to make sure that he was a faster driver. The reverse happened to me on my last session, an AMG C32 was on my tail coming thru the carousel on the first lap and I was going to point him by. But the instructor told me to wait first. On the straight he was on my ass but then once we went into the turns, I kept him several car lengths away to the point by the time he caught up to me on the straight, we were already into the braking zone. He was telling me that had I let him pass me the first time, I would've been held up in the turns, saying that the only advantage for him was his horsepower on the straights, given the way he way driving.

Like Steve said, it is responsibility of the instructor to help make a good decision.

a little off-topic-do you guys recommend any books about racing/driving? my first DE is coming up and I want to read up on driving now that I have time (and a gift card to B&N;) )

a little off-topic-do you guys recommend any books about racing/driving? my first DE is coming up and I want to read up on driving now that I have time (and a gift card to B&N;) )

Going Faster: Mastering the Art of Race Driving by Carl Lopez

George...read Ross Bentley's book called 'Speed Secrets'...excellent book...Carroll Smith has a couple of books out also. A definate read is 'Going Faster' by skip barber...

My advice is that if you feel you are getting held up at a DE, ask the CI to put you in the advanced group and ask an instructor to ride with you each session...that way you'll have space...if someone slows you down, just look at it as a chance to cool your tires down a bit and if you are not getting a point by, then make a stronger run on the guy off of a given corner into a passing zone....the key is to make sure he knows your there!

One of the BSR instructors (Sunir and Andy know him-Gregg)

Gregg doesn't count since he drives a honduh..hehe :D :) ;) ....just kiddin' :stickoutt

Jed,
Update your sig... www.JohnVPower.net? :rolleyes:

---Eric

a little off-topic-do you guys recommend any books about racing/driving? my first DE is coming up and I want to read up on driving now that I have time (and a gift card to B&N;) )

Or I could lend you my DVD copy of TeckademicZZZ Destroyer. That is considered the, "The Racer's Bible". :dunno

a little off-topic-do you guys recommend any books about racing/driving? my first DE is coming up and I want to read up on driving now that I have time (and a gift card to B&N;) )

Just watch Sunir's extended version of his power point presentation - "The History of Sunir's M3 Lightweight (and how to race)". :stickoutt

---Eric

Gregg doesn't count since he drives a honduh..hehe :D :) ;) ....just kiddin' :stickoutt

:boid:

I think you took my comments out of context Document :) ... I drive at my own pace where I feel comfortable. It does not mean I am going 55 mph. If that is not fast enough for you, I'm sorry.

Plus, the whole miata thing -- give me a break, that was my FIRST time at a DE and I was a bit apprehensive on Blizzak LM-22's. So, you are going to bust my balls about that? Why the hell was that miata driver in Novice group then? He is the one that should be bumped up. I should not have any reservations about going whatever speed I want in Novice. No novice student should have to worry about their speed: period. No offense.

Plus, even IF it is intermediate group -- why are people getting frustrated? Is there a requisite speed that one must maintain to be in intermediate group? That's complete B.S. IMO. Why not pit out and let the slower person go far ahead.

Mark R. and Garrett can vouch that at the last PCA event (yeah, I was in Mark R.'s group) there was a green porsche that was hella slow in our run group. But, for me, I did not let it bother me. I would just come in ... and then go out again. I mean, if a person is such a fast driver, then go up to advanced ... I don't think intermediate group there should be a requisite SPEED that one must maintain.

From what I understand, an intermediate driver is one who is skilled enough not to be a danger to himself or to others, while driving on the track with other people. E.g., this includes carrying a speed that is adequate enough not to be danger in the intermediate group. A person could not be in intermediate if the instructor, before signing him/her off, did not believe they were driving that speed.

I hate the people in intermediate that think it is a W2W race event ... e.g., we entered turn 10 three cars side by side. I was in the middle portion passing and someone was on my passenger side. That's what pisses me off .. people that treat a DE like it is an open lapping event or W2W. I think everyone has to be considerate of others ... it's just great to be at the track with a bunch of enthusiasts. Hearing crap like this puts a damper on things.

Remember, though, that you're going to be bumped up into intermediate if you've been doing this for a while, but if you're just taking the car out for that sunday drive, maybe you should request to run in novice.

No offense document, but if you were so damn fast, why not ask to be bumped up into advanced then? Yes, I could be in advanced for Car Guys, PCA, and FMoW events. Not because I've been to so many events; but, b/c the instructors have approved. However, I don't feel comfortable driving at those speeds, so, I declined and stayed in intermediate. Like you, I want to drive the car home. Thus, in doing so, I accept the speeds of the intermediate group ... if you are in intermediate. I think you have to realize there is a huge disparity between talent. Some have just got signed off into the intermediate group ... some have years of experience but are in intermediate group b/c they feel like it, have a new car, etc.

I don't understand why in intermediate you think you are such a good driver that you can drive off the line, scratch your nose, etc ... just b/c you feel the person is going 20 mph to slow. I mean, what I do (mark r. taught me this) ... is for instance, in the carousel, slow down quite a bit, and then accelerate through it quickly to catch up ... that's what I mean. You can learn a lot ... even if going slow IMO. I take the opportunity to change my lines to see what would happen b/c I am at a slower and safer speed. So, I disagree that you can't learn something ... you just have to actively seek it.

seems to me that document's rants have to do with more with drivers' courtesy and/or etiquette, rather than their speed around the track.

i personally don't mind being on track with slower drivers, just as long as these drivers are aware of what's going on behind them as well as in front.

I think you took my comments out of context Document :) ... I drive at my own pace where I feel comfortable. It does not mean I am going 55 mph. If that is not fast enough for you, I'm sorry.

Plus, the whole miata thing -- give me a break, that was my FIRST time at a DE and I was a bit apprehensive on Blizzak LM-22's. So, you are going to bust my balls about that? Why the hell was that miata driver in Novice group then? He is the one that should be bumped up. I should not have any reservations about going whatever speed I want in Novice. No novice student should have to worry about their speed: period. No offense.

Plus, even IF it is intermediate group -- why are people getting frustrated? Is there a requisite speed that one must maintain to be in intermediate group? That's complete B.S. IMO. Why not pit out and let the slower person go far ahead.

Mark R. and Garrett can vouch that at the last PCA event (yeah, I was in Mark R.'s group) there was a green porsche that was hella slow in our run group. But, for me, I did not let it bother me. I would just come in ... and then go out again. I mean, if a person is such a fast driver, then go up to advanced ... I don't think intermediate group there should be a requisite SPEED that one must maintain.

From what I understand, an intermediate driver is one who is skilled enough not to be a danger to himself or to others, while driving on the track with other people. E.g., this includes carrying a speed that is adequate enough not to be danger in the intermediate group. A person could not be in intermediate if the instructor, before signing him/her off, did not believe they were driving that speed.

I hate the people in intermediate that think it is a W2W race event ... e.g., we entered turn 10 three cars side by side. I was in the middle portion passing and someone was on my passenger side. That's what pisses me off .. people that treat a DE like it is an open lapping event or W2W. I think everyone has to be considerate of others ... it's just great to be at the track with a bunch of enthusiasts. Hearing crap like this puts a damper on things.

No offense document, but if you were so damn fast, why not ask to be bumped up into advanced then? Yes, I could be in advanced for Car Guys, PCA, and FMoW events. Not because I've been to so many events; but, b/c the instructors have approved. However, I don't feel comfortable driving at those speeds, so, I declined and stayed in intermediate. Like you, I want to drive the car home. Thus, in doing so, I accept the speeds of the intermediate group ... if you are in intermediate. I think you have to realize there is a huge disparity between talent. Some have just got signed off into the intermediate group ... some have years of experience but are in intermediate group b/c they feel like it, have a new car, etc.

I don't understand why in intermediate you think you are such a good driver that you can drive off the line, scratch your nose, etc ... just b/c you feel the person is going 20 mph to slow. I mean, what I do (mark r. taught me this) ... is for instance, in the carousel, slow down quite a bit, and then accelerate through it quickly to catch up ... that's what I mean. You can learn a lot ... even if going slow IMO. I take the opportunity to change my lines to see what would happen b/c I am at a slower and safer speed. So, I disagree that you can't learn something ... you just have to actively seek it.


Two posts in a row and not one single use of the word FCUK. :(

Going Faster is excellent although it may not make as much sense until you do a couple schools. It's just easier if you uunderstand the terms. No reflection on anyone. I know when I first flipped through the pages I was overwhelmed. Now it is a nice review.

I think you took my comments out of context Document :) ...
Yep, that's definitely true. You just happened to say something that struck a nerve, especially after my last event, and got me typing. I will say, wtf were you doing on the track with Blizzaks? That's just silly.
Plus, even IF it is intermediate group -- why are people getting frustrated? Is there a requisite speed that one must maintain to be in intermediate group? That's complete B.S. IMO. Why not pit out and let the slower person go far ahead.
Let's make it all about catering to the lowest common denominator. Someone not pointing you by? Pit in. Someone driving 55? Pit in for a lap. Someone driving erratically? Pit in, pit in, pit in. Screw that. People doing any of those things should be knocked down to novice. It shouldn't be the job of the majority of the drivers in the group to deal with someone driving like this. Yes, we can, and yes, we do, but don't expect me to like it and make someone feel all warm and fuzzy for driving like a novice.
I hate the people in intermediate that think it is a W2W race event ... e.g., we entered turn 10 three cars side by side. I was in the middle portion passing and someone was on my passenger side. That's what pisses me off .. people that treat a DE like it is an open lapping event or W2W. I think everyone has to be considerate of others ... it's just great to be at the track with a bunch of enthusiasts. Hearing crap like this puts a damper on things.
I've never seen people entering a turn three cars at a time at a DE, and would expect to see some black flags flying if I did. Entering a turn two-wide would be grounds for a black flag, even. Seriously, I've never been to an event where people were behaving like it was open lapping or w2w. But people need to understand, everyone being "considerate of others" doesn't only mean that fast cars need to be nice and understanding of the slow guys. That very often seems to be the perception that slow people have: they're not driving aggressively at the guy in front of them, so they feel like they're doing their part to be considerate. But they've got it exactly backwards: if everyone is considerate and quick with their point-bys, aggressive driving hardly has a chance to develop.

No offense document, but if you were so damn fast, why not ask to be bumped up into advanced then? Yes, I could be in advanced for Car Guys, PCA, and FMoW events. Not because I've been to so many events; but, b/c the instructors have approved. However, I don't feel comfortable driving at those speeds, so, I declined and stayed in intermediate. Like you, I want to drive the car home. Thus, in doing so, I accept the speeds of the intermediate group ... if you are in intermediate. I think you have to realize there is a huge disparity between talent. Some have just got signed off into the intermediate group ... some have years of experience but are in intermediate group b/c they feel like it, have a new car, etc.
For the last time, I don't think people should be getting bumped into intermediate when they're getting lapped by drivers in similar cars (given ~30 minutes sessions and ~2 minute laps). Driving fast, like nearly everything, is a game of diminishing returns; picking random numbers, but 20% of the knowledge will get you 50% of the speed, 50% knowledge gets you 90% of the speed, 90% of the knowledge gets you 99% of the speed, etc. Get the basics of the line, gas, and throttle down in novice, and you should be able to turn a respectably quick lap.

Eh. Whatever. This is just my personal opinion. I don't feel like there's any excuse for moving up groups until you've moved up your skills. Obviously there are plenty of people and organizations who disagree with me on this one.

I don't understand why in intermediate you think you are such a good driver that you can drive off the line, scratch your nose, etc ... just b/c you feel the person is going 20 mph to slow. I mean, what I do (mark r. taught me this) ... is for instance, in the carousel, slow down quite a bit, and then accelerate through it quickly to catch up ... that's what I mean. You can learn a lot ... even if going slow IMO. I take the opportunity to change my lines to see what would happen b/c I am at a slower and safer speed. So, I disagree that you can't learn something ... you just have to actively seek it.
Uh, ever taken a parade lap? That's starting to approximate what it's like to be stuck behind someone 20+ seconds a lap slower than you; it's not that I feel like I can do these things because the person is going 20mph too slow. No. I really CAN do them. Because we're puttering around like grandma on an exit ramp. While I included most of those things I can do for comic relief, it is indeed educational to drive off line, and that's why I do it. You never know when you're going to be forced out there, like it or not. Also, like Sunir or someone said, it is a good time to let your tires cool off a little bit -- as long as we're talking half a lap until you get your point-by.

All this crap about "slowing down quite a bit" works fine if the guy in front is at least moving, but when you're behind a car this slow, you can't reasonably slow down enough to get a good run up because you'll be all over the car in seconds. I'm basically in favor of a complete inversion of your priorities: the slow drivers should be catering to the fast drivers, not the other way around.

Man, I hope no one is going to be in my run group this weekend at Mid-Ohio. Now I'm all self-conscious. :eyecrazy:

Man, I hope no one is going to be in my run group this weekend at Mid-Ohio. Now I'm all self-conscious. :eyecrazy:
Heh. No worries. I'm the fastest guy in the world, but I couldn't make it out to Mid Ohio this weekend -- you should be ok. :(

Really, though, I was just blowing off some steam. Probably 90% of the drivers I've run with behave reasonably.

GreekM3: Regarding books, I agree that Going Faster is a good bet, but I also agree that it won't necessarily be that useful before you even get to the track for the first time. On the other hand, it won't hurt, except to the extent it makes you get really, really sleepy in your 8:30 am mandatory driver's meeting in which they explain what the apex of a curve is sixty-five times.

If you can't heel-toe, you'd be better off spending the time on the streetzzz practicing rather than reading the book. Took me quite a while to get the hang of HT, and it's basically essential on the track if you're not wimping out in an automatic (SMG, whatever).

i am also a HUGE fan of Bentley's book, especially the second.

But i think it would take more than a couple schools to take advantage of the book(we talking about the 2nd book?) If anything, i think it may be too much for anyone w/ less than at LEAST 6-7 schools. There is already enough to learn in the first few DE's: line, basic car control, flags, track etiquette, being consistent, etc. Those tips in Speed Secrets will make a DE seem like information overload IMHO.

I had 10 autocrosses before my first DE, and i don't think i was really exploring the details of the book until my 8th event or so. But then again, i am a slow learner.

:)

Heh. No worries. I'm the fastest guy in the world, but I couldn't make it out to Mid Ohio this weekend -- you should be ok. :(

Really, though, I was just blowing off some steam. Probably 90% of the drivers I've run with behave reasonably.

GreekM3: Regarding books, I agree that Going Faster is a good bet, but I also agree that it won't necessarily be that useful before you even get to the track for the first time. On the other hand, it won't hurt, except to the extent it makes you get really, really sleepy in your 8:30 am mandatory driver's meeting in which they explain what the apex of a curve is sixty-five times.

If you can't heel-toe, you'd be better off spending the time on the streetzzz practicing rather than reading the book. Took me quite a while to get the hang of HT, and it's basically essential on the track if you're not wimping out in an automatic (SMG, whatever).
i've been practicing HT lately a little bit. Unfortunetely I don't drive the M3 everyday so I don't have everyday to practice....

There are so many slow drivers on the road. When I'm trying to pass someone in the right lane, they always slow me down.

I had to dig up this old thread.

I was in B group at Mid-Ohio over the Memorial Day weekend.
Plenty of people passed me, I passed several once but did lap a Mini Cooper S almost twice. And I got lapped by some big bad P-cars twice. Each time I passed the Mini I thought about this thread. :D She did give lots of point bys but probably got tired of giving so many. She really should have been in D group. She didn't really slow us down but she could not have learned much by driving her rear view mirror.

June NCC school next.
Mid-Ohio is awesome! :buttrock
Although I ran out of rubber for my last session.
I'll be at Radial this week.