Some of this is being discussed in another thread, and mulitple topics get diluted from various angles. So, I thought I would start this thread to draw some attention to this important topic and there are many misconceptions.

However, understand that I am not an insurance agent nor do I know the law; I just want to share some of my personal experience and some information I found.

Few things:
- I can tell you that I will not be going to any event (except autox) that is held on a race track that does not clearly state "driver education", "instructor", "student", etc.

Following my crash at VIR, BMWCCA Tarheel Chapter sent me a very nice explanatory letter to pass on to my insurance that closed the deal, and Geico paid up. However, some of those details just have to be related to the event, or the insurance companies are very quick to find ways around it.

My crash, thankfully, involved damage only to the car; but imagine if someone was hurt. Things would have been much more serious. Medical bills, disability, etc.

Do not think that it may not happen to you. It truly takes a small mistake sometimes. Especially when we go to track events as groups, competitive nature kicks in that speeds increase, attention decrease and focus shifts.

- If you call you insurance agent and ask if HPDEs are covered or not, the answer s/he will give you is not worth anything. The contract you have between you and the insurance company is your policy. If there are/n't specific language excluding damages done in HPDE envents, then you are covered. It may take a lawyer to get your money, but there is nothing that the insurance company can do. They may drop the coverage or increase your rates however of course.

- Going out solo on the track without an instructor with you, may create a way for you insurance company to claim that you were not a student but practicing for a "competitive event". Lawyers know these details better than I for sure.

- It may be worthwhile to take track insurance in addition to your regular insurance; some companies offer it between $250 to $1000/yr depending on the value of your vehicle, frequency of track events, experience, etc.

- If you post messages on the Internet boards regarding how your were "competing" or "going at each other", etc. insurance investigators do extensive research and do find those posts (not to mention some car manufacturer and then deny warranty coverage to people being at the track for what ever reason, and that is no joke either)

The best write-up I found on this topic is at http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=112417

Again, I want stress a point: I am not an insurance agent, lawyer, or tremendously knowledgeable about this topic. I just wanted to share my own experience and information I came accross during my accident.

Thanks for the info, Fatih!

Fatih made some very good points there... even at an autoX, it is hard to get the insurance company to cover...

I believe track insurance is a certain percentage of the value you want to insure plus a pretty large deductible....

There is one thing in the Rennlist link that I do not agree with though.. and that is with regards to autoX. He says that autoX should not be covered because its timed and on a parking lot (race course). However, later on he talks about timing for your own personal education and improvement. One could argue this is the case with autocross as well..... :confused:

This is a GREAT thread.

Eric, let's keep all the info in this thread factual. Let's not throw in things like, "I think...". That only makes things more confusing.

This is a GREAT thread.

Eric, let's keep all the info in this thread factual. Let's not throw in things like, "I think...". That only makes things more confusing.

ummm... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Is THIS better? Give me a freakin break :mad:

"How much does it cost?
The annual premium is 1.5% of the Agreed Value of your vehicle. So, for example, an annual policy for a vehicle valued at $25,000 would be $375.

What are the deductibles for the policy?
A 20% deductible (of the Agreed Value of the car) applies to any loss that occurs on the track. A $1,000 deductible applies to any loss while the car is in the paddock area, while it is kept in storage, or while in trailered transit to and from an event. "

http://www.americancollectorsins.com/de_faq.htm

I was actually dropped by State Farm last year becuase of my oops at Summit Point (about a $4k fix it bill) and a fender bender I had the year before. Because both happened about 11 months apart, SF decided I was "high risk" and my policy wasn't renewed. Now at the time this really pissed me off because I was a 3rd generation SF customer and had about 10 years in since I've been driving.

So, after being dropped I went with Progressive (they were the cheapest) and my rates went up about $400 (for the year); which granted isn't bad, except that my level of coverage changed dramatically. With SF, I had low deductables, no comprehensive deductable (so the 2 windshields I've gone through were essentially free!!) and big coverage levels on personal, property, etc...

Now with Progressive I'm paying more and have the minimum amounts of coverage I can carry for MD.. Sucks..

So, I won't return to the track without some form of track insurance, whether my normal insurance covers drivers schools or not. That American Collectors link is what I've been looking at and will get this summer. It seems to provide good coverage for not much cost.

Just remember that you need to also think beyond whether or not the insurance will cover the damage, but what will the overall effect be. If you've had a fender bender, tickets etc, they may decide that your "high risk" and your on your own...

-Saint

I've been meaning to switch insurance companies -- I think I am going to wait until I turn 24 in August .. When i meet with the new agent, should i specifically ask if HPDE's will be covered? or just look the policy over without her knowing that i intend to do them. I guess my question is will i be penalized for even mentioning that I might do a HPDE?

So, I won't return to the track without some form of track insurance, whether my normal insurance covers drivers schools or not. That American Collectors link is what I've been looking at and will get this summer. It seems to provide good coverage for not much cost.


Dan and Eric, thanks for the info on the track insurance!

Chris or Austin-think maybe one of you guys can park this at the top? I think this is a good thread to keep up there.

I'm looking into this strictly from an autox perspective. If you want me to start a new thread, please say so.

My policy excludes any "racing or speed contest." I've heard some people say autox would be covered because it is not a "speed contest." It is described in the SCCA rule book as a "non-speed driving skill contest."

I plan on asking my agent about this next week. Now the guy on the Rennlist thread suggests you should not contact your agent, or at least not trust the answer that you get. Most of the people here autox, how did you handle the insurace question? I guess each insurance company is different, should I just contact a lawyer?

Thanks,

Scott

I've been meaning to switch insurance companies -- I think I am going to wait until I turn 24 in August .. When i meet with the new agent, should i specifically ask if HPDE's will be covered? or just look the policy over without her knowing that i intend to do them. I guess my question is will i be penalized for even mentioning that I might do a HPDE?
Yes, it is very possible. It would only take a short note into your file from the agent :) I have "heard" people getting dropped by their insurance just for asking about it (unfortunately, they were about State Farm).

I'm looking into this strictly from an autox perspective. If you want me to start a new thread, please say so.

My policy excludes any "racing or speed contest." I've heard some people say autox would be covered because it is not a "speed contest." It is described in the SCCA rule book as a "non-speed driving skill contest."

I plan on asking my agent about this next week. Now the guy on the Rennlist thread suggests you should not contact your agent, or at least not trust the answer that you get. Most of the people here autox, how did you handle the insurace question? I guess each insurance company is different, should I just contact a lawyer?

Thanks,

Scott
Well your policy says "racing or speed contest". Frankly, they can even qualify speeding on the street (if any police report of a second car around doing the same thing with you) to that. I'd suggest consulting one or two lawyers.

As fatih referred to, it does not matter what your "agent" says. He/she can say anything they want to; but, they have NO POWER. The true power lies with the underwriter. They are the ones that determine if you were at-fault, no-fault, will get coverage, etc. Unless the agent will put it "IN WRITING" -- do not believe what they say. Whatever anyone says, get it in writing: period.

Problem is -- "racing and speed" contest possesses different meanings depending on the jurisdiction you reside in. Some places, racing means, if the event took place "on a race track ..." that is commercially used for racing; you are racing, period, regardless of timed/un-timed, etc....

People get caught up with the fact the event is not timed. That's not the main concern. Main concern is how racing and speed contests are defined. For instance, a speed contest may be defined simply as "an organized event in which cars are driven at speeds greater than the legal speed limit in "x" state" ... well crap, that covers pretty much all HPDE's now doesn't it?

I am in agreement that auto-x's ... will one day, unfortunately NOT be covered by insurance as well. It's contradictory to offer coverage for an auto-x event that IS timed and NOT cover an event that is not timed. The former leads one to believe that IS racing and competing AND is a speed contest, the latter would not suggest so. It is a dichotomy in the case law right now; but, I think that will change as time goes on. It's hard to reconcile the two events without grouping them together, e.g., insurance for auto-x is okay; yet, insurance for a driver's education event is not okay.

All-state, a friend used to be with ... inquired about the HPDE's and auto-x's. Next time renewal came up, they denied renewing the policy.

ummm... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Is THIS better? Give me a freakin break :mad:

"How much does it cost?
The annual premium is 1.5% of the Agreed Value of your vehicle. So, for example, an annual policy for a vehicle valued at $25,000 would be $375.

What are the deductibles for the policy?
A 20% deductible (of the Agreed Value of the car) applies to any loss that occurs on the track. A $1,000 deductible applies to any loss while the car is in the paddock area, while it is kept in storage, or while in trailered transit to and from an event. "

http://www.americancollectorsins.com/de_faq.htm

I would get this in a second! Actually spoke with them monts ago - no luck for me since car is registered in DC.

This is a really informative thread.

To clarify about AutoX, is their coverage, and if so who is the better company to be insured by. Clearly I have to switch base on the Rennsport thread indicating that Allstate will not cover anything.

Pete

Teuton, I looked around on the internet for a company that would offer third-party coverage for autox events. I could not find any reference to autox in anyone's information. The link referenced earlier is the first one I've seen that explicitly states you are covered on the track- but just for a DE. Most of the other "track insurance" sites I found would cover your car in the garage, on the trailer, in transit to the track, in the paddock, on the grid, up until the green flag drops. Once the race starts, you are not covered.

If anyone offered autox coverage, I'd be interested, but I have not seen an policy explicitly covering an autox event. The SCCA offers a generous medical policy ($1 million medical expenses and some disability income for SCCA members), but nothing for personal property.

Scott

I know Erie covers autoX, caus I know someone who filed a claim. The entire truth was told.

They havent dropped the individual .. yet .. as renewal is in Sept.

C.F. O Connel and Sons (agent)
301.384.4400

they have pretty good rates if youre a good driver.... though they have some wacky thing if you own a "sporty car" and dont have more than 3 years? driving experience on it.

ummm... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Is THIS better? Give me a freakin break :mad:

"How much does it cost?
The annual premium is 1.5% of the Agreed Value of your vehicle. So, for example, an annual policy for a vehicle valued at $25,000 would be $375.

What are the deductibles for the policy?
A 20% deductible (of the Agreed Value of the car) applies to any loss that occurs on the track. A $1,000 deductible applies to any loss while the car is in the paddock area, while it is kept in storage, or while in trailered transit to and from an event. "

http://www.americancollectorsins.com/de_faq.htm

This is actually a good idea and I will be looking into it for coverage. I have been doing a lot more HPDE's lately and like the extra "insurance" you can get for a couple hundred bucks a year.

Does anyone actually know someone that has insurance through this company????

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=2307430#post2307430

This is actually a good idea and I will be looking into it for coverage. I have been doing a lot more HPDE's lately and like the extra "insurance" you can get for a couple hundred bucks a year.

Does anyone actually know someone that has insurance through this company????
I renewed for the 2nd year. You are covered from the time you leave your house to the time you return, including track time. You write the policy for the amount you want covered. I have no other experience with them. Hopefully I will never need to contact them other than to renew.

BTW- Insurance companies review your record every x years. Because your insurance doesn't go up one year doesn't mean it won't the following. I was excluded from my policy a year after totalling my car. That was with my primary insurance. I ended up paying double for 3 years.

I know Erie covers autoX, caus I know someone who filed a claim. The entire truth was told.

They havent dropped the individual .. yet .. as renewal is in Sept.

C.F. O Connel and Sons (agent)
301.384.4400

they have pretty good rates if youre a good driver.... though they have some wacky thing if you own a "sporty car" and dont have more than 3 years? driving experience on it.

They keep their rates for good drivers low by hammAring the bad drivers and new drivers. I called them for a quote when I bought my M3 (my first "sporty" car in several years) and they wanted about triple what progressive wanted. I have a perfect record.

The guy told me he wished he could help me, but to call back after I had the car for two years. I plan on switching in October. I have not had to make a claim with Progressive, but their customer service is irritating. I think they hire monkeys with limited capacity for English.

John

I have insurance through Erie and with my 99 Audi and 95 M3 I pay about $1000 a year, totally clean record. They did try to give me crap for buying a "sporty" car when I bought my P-car (944turbo) but my rates were still fairly low.