When an E36 is ran real hard, lets say for AX purposes in this case, one can start to hear a tap/knock.....common to the E36 engine.

I was told the other day that this noise is lifter related and that over a period of time it will/can result in their demise.

I know that almost every one that I've heard at an AX event will make this noise after running but is there any truth to the above statement ?

......can anyone expand on this ?

......can anyone expand on this ?

I imagine either Jim O. or the archives can.

Hint: put in some extra oil, or a better oil pan.

check your oil level, overfill it a bit (between 1/2 to 1 quart over, I think). If you search for "oil overfill" you'll get lots of info. I think other (more $$) options include putting baffling in the oil pan and the dual pickup oil pump (from the euro motor?)

Oil Baffle...very common.

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html/detail.asp?PRODUCT_ID=TMSE36OPB

I seem to remember somebody telling me about that not curing the valve tick. Has anybody installed these and gotten rid of the problem?

I was told the other day that this noise is lifter related and that over a period of time it will/can result in their demise.


I'm sorry if I wasn't clear about my question......please see above statement.
Thanks for the replies but I do understand about running a quart over the regular limit and a baffled oil pan. I also undstand that using a thicker oil will also help in reducing the amount of knock/tick you hear. But my question still remains as to how bad is "tick" on the lifters: very minor, will hurt the engine over time, etc.

I don't own a M3 as yet but I am compiling information together to decide whether or not the M3 is the right car for me (for AX and weekends)

I seem to remember somebody telling me about that not curing the valve tick. Has anybody installed these and gotten rid of the problem?
I just finished building and installing my own custom baffled oil pan (http://www.brazeauracing.com/oilpan.htm) based on the Turner kit... still got ticking after auto-x runs. Even Turner will tell you that this will not cure the problem. Just something we gotta live with i guess.

It is not the end of the world, I know several competitive Autoxers who have been running and ticking for years with no ill effects....yet.

the sound of ticking is how you find the other M3 drivers at the auto-x :D

I have had good luck with going to syntec 5w-50 to reduce the ticking, but depending on the course ( long sweepers) I can still get some ticking. It is not as bad as others tho.

There is a valve cleaner oil additive (I think) that can be bought for a few bucks at Autozone/Pep Boys/etc. that apparently gets rid of the infamous valve tick.

A member on this board (CABimmer) has used it and he says that he gets no more valve tick whatsoever.

I do not remember what the product is called, but it is available at your nearest auto parts store. I believe it was posted somewhere on bimmerforums previously too, so you can try searching for it.

There is a valve cleaner oil additive (I think) that can be bought for a few bucks at Autozone/Pep Boys/etc. that apparently gets rid of the infamous valve tick.

A member on this board (CABimmer) has used it and he says that he gets no more valve tick whatsoever.

I do not remember what the product is called, but it is available at your nearest auto parts store. I believe it was posted somewhere on bimmerforums previously too, so you can try searching for it.

It's CD-4(?) Valve lifter cleaner. I used it once for what I thought was ticking but wasn't, so I'm not sure it works all the time. There was a person on here that it worked for, but I think it came back eventually. The thread was called "Valve Lifter Tick a $3.49 fix", or something like that.

After the recent AutoX here, I had mad ticking after my runs. I thought my oil was topped off but I guess not. I topped it off while I was over there and still got some ticking, though not as bad. Hearing all the other ticking around the paddock made me feel at home.

Presumably the ticking is due to compressed hydraulic lifters introducing slack between the cam and follower and lifter somewhere. If that's true, then while it's probably not the best thing in the world, it shouldn't really hurt anything very much. The main effect, I would think, would be a slight reduction in power, from the valves not opening all the way.

Pure speculation on my part, but then again, I've never heard of anyone's motor breaking from too much ticking.

I have found that by driving for a few miles after a set of hard auto-x runs, the ticking goes away. I unfortunately do not have the mechanical knowledge or experience to explain why this happens, but it has been my experience, so take it for what it's worth.

I have a baffle installed and have not had any tick since. I do track events as opposed to auto-x though....and I did get tick at the track before this mod. Tim

I have found that by driving for a few miles after a set of hard auto-x runs, the ticking goes away. I unfortunately do not have the mechanical knowledge or experience to explain why this happens, but it has been my experience, so take it for what it's worth.
Same here... goes away after a few miles of normal driving.

In a full season of autocrossing or 4+ track days, I never had the lifter tick problem running Mobil 1 15w50.

All I can assume is that they extra viscosity help coat the lifters better. No real tech, but a first hand experience.

Drive Safely,
Raza

Over fill by 3/4-1 Qt...I use the small dimple above the notched fill mark on the dipstick as a reference. I run NEO 5/30 synthetic BTW.

Last, and most important, do not shut your motor down for at least 3-4 minutes after an Autocross run, or even longer for a track session. This will all but eliminate the chance of hearing the valves clacking away upon start up....
This a low RPM problem and goes away quite quickly if you do the above....

HTH,
Steve
Boston Chapter Autocross Chair

Some of these engines just click more than others. I cured it (made it sound better) on my '97 M3 by going to 5-30 M1, nothing ever changed it (even overfilling) on the '99 M Roadster we had.

Thanks for all the replies, especially your's document......that's the information that I was looking for.

On that same note, I also have never heard anyhting about this motor (E36) needing to be rebuilt due specifically to to lifters "tick", but again I've only been investigating the car ('95-'99 M3) seriously for the past 6 months.

Thanks again guys......this seems to be a great board !

Sigh - this seems to be another of those threads that comes up over and over and over again. Oh, well, I'll answer it again, and hopefully that will be that.

Anyway, these cars use hydraulic lifters. Lifters fill up with oil, and expand to take up the space between the cam and the valve stem. Because they take up this space, you don't have to ever adjust the valves.

When you corner really hard, you can slosh the oil away from the pickup in the oil pan. When this happens, you get momentary oil starvation - the first sign is that the lifters pump down, and you get more play in the valve train - thus the clatter. When the lifters pump up again, the tick goes away. A correctly-designed baffled oil pan should help, along with the dual-pickup oil pump and pan out of the LTW, but there's still the chance of the oil sloshing away from the pickup. Overfilling also helps, and the oil pan is deep enough that you don't have to worry about the crank frothing the oil, as long as you keep the overfill within reason. Different viscosity oil may also help, but there's no single answer here.

Each engine seems to respond differently for different drivers - on some, a simple overfill with normal oil does the trick. On others, dual pickups and baffled oil pans fail to eliminate the problem. Best thing is to start with an overfill, then if that doesn't do the trick, try different oils. If neither of those fix the problem, then you might want to start thinking about baffles or a dual pickup setup, or maybe an Accusump. Or maybe trying to drive smoother. etc., etc., etc.

Definitely allow your engine to idle between autocross runs, or for a decent amount of time after a track session. Oil pressure at idle is fairly low, so you might want to try gently revving the motor a little (up to the 2500-3000 RPM range) for a short amount of time, to get the oil pressure up to the point where the lifters fill up again.

Does it damage the engine? Depends on how long the starvation occurs, and how many times. I've seen engines where a lifter collapses and gets stuck in the compressed position, so the tick never goes away - the lifter needed to be replaced to get rid of the noise. Whether that's because the lifter was oil starved or not is a matter of conjecture. Anyway, back in the day when you had valves that you had to periodically adjust, it was bad to run them too loose for too long of a time. I'd imagine that the same thing is true for these hydraulic lifters...

Jim

I just finished building and installing my own custom baffled oil pan (http://www.brazeauracing.com/oilpan.htm) based on the Turner kit... still got ticking after auto-x runs. Even Turner will tell you that this will not cure the problem. Just something we gotta live with i guess.

I wish I had your skills.

my new motor, from a 98 328 I think, doesn't seem to have the problem anymore

different oil pan than mym 94 325 has

Sigh - this seems to be another of those threads that comes up over and over and over again. Oh, well, I'll answer it again, and hopefully that will be that.

Anyway, these cars use hydraulic lifters. Lifters fill up with oil, and expand to take up the space between the cam and the valve stem. Because they take up this space, you don't have to ever adjust the valves.

When you corner really hard, you can slosh the oil away from the pickup in the oil pan. When this happens, you get momentary oil starvation - the first sign is that the lifters pump down, and you get more play in the valve train - thus the clatter. When the lifters pump up again, the tick goes away. A correctly-designed baffled oil pan should help, along with the dual-pickup oil pump and pan out of the LTW, but there's still the chance of the oil sloshing away from the pickup. Overfilling also helps, and the oil pan is deep enough that you don't have to worry about the crank frothing the oil, as long as you keep the overfill within reason. Different viscosity oil may also help, but there's no single answer here.

Each engine seems to respond differently for different drivers - on some, a simple overfill with normal oil does the trick. On others, dual pickups and baffled oil pans fail to eliminate the problem. Best thing is to start with an overfill, then if that doesn't do the trick, try different oils. If neither of those fix the problem, then you might want to start thinking about baffles or a dual pickup setup, or maybe an Accusump. Or maybe trying to drive smoother. etc., etc., etc.

Definitely allow your engine to idle between autocross runs, or for a decent amount of time after a track session. Oil pressure at idle is fairly low, so you might want to try gently revving the motor a little (up to the 2500-3000 RPM range) for a short amount of time, to get the oil pressure up to the point where the lifters fill up again.

Does it damage the engine? Depends on how long the starvation occurs, and how many times. I've seen engines where a lifter collapses and gets stuck in the compressed position, so the tick never goes away - the lifter needed to be replaced to get rid of the noise. Whether that's because the lifter was oil starved or not is a matter of conjecture. Anyway, back in the day when you had valves that you had to periodically adjust, it was bad to run them too loose for too long of a time. I'd imagine that the same thing is true for these hydraulic lifters...

Jim

Thanks for sharing that info!!!! :buttrock

I have +200K miles on my 2.8. I do 4-6 weekends of DEs a year since about 70K. Engine is still strong despite the occasional ticking. I certainly would not worry about it.

The VAC (www.vacmotorsports.com) pan baffle is pretty sweet. It's cheaper than the TMS baffle and only requires one spot weld. I’ve experienced no ticking since I installed it.

Here it is after being tiged in the pan...

Talk about reviving a dead thread.

New lifters fix the tick, baffles do not.

Get some cotton balls and insert them in your ear canal while at autocross events. It helps quite a lot, and still allows your to hear loud noises, for example, a broken con rod punching holes in the block.

cheers,

Joe