This was fun.........
Went autocrossing today and realized why I bought an E-36 M3.
The car did really well and was so smooth. Great time. Anyways, I went to the Autocross with my friend who has a 2001 Audi S4. On the way out from the autocross we have about a twent five minute drive to get home on open freeway. The race was a forgone conclusion. Anyhow, I pull a fast one getting on the freeway and get the jump ahead. After which we both get stuffed in traffic for like ten minutes. Then the freeway dumps from one lane to two on a big down hill. Now is where it gets interesting. He has a stock S4 with a short shifter, my 98 M3 has intake, software, flywheel, exhaust, and throttle body. Going down this big hill, he flys by at maybe one thirty five; I dont want to readline down the hill. It seems those six speeds have a flexability advantage at freeway speeds compared to my 3.23 geared five speed. Anyhow he slows down behind traffic, and I do a good 135 to catch up. Soon we begin cutting in and out of traffic and then we open it up. I drop third and stay right on his bumper.....125....135....140....dead even. But as soon as 135 hits I start to pull slowly on him until we shut it down at 143...? I think.
The moral of the story is this. If you have an M3 e-36 with light mods you can expect at dead even freeway race. If he has a chip, you are going to get slowly toasted, from a stand still or on the freeway. The way to BMW victory is better driving and more response, aka his turbo lag sucks......:rolleyes: Now I need forced induction and new brakes because mine are now TOTALLY warped from 140 to 80 mph slow downs.:chix Later guys....Alex

cause they are uneducated!

S4's DO NOT HAVE TURBO LAG IF THEY ARE RUNNING CORRECTLY!

Having owned both an s4 and a dinan 95 m3 the s4 pulls much harder down low where the m shines up top of the rpm range.

on the highway IF (and that is a big IF) the s4 know how to drive you are going to loose! (stock vs stock) modded m3 vs stock s4, will be close to even with the ad to the m3 but the s4 has 6 gears so again be careful.

A chipped (plus cat back) s4 will walk and I mean walk on a non force inducted m3 or maybe one with some serious engine work done. I have driven my s4 stock at 14.1 1/4 miles and a chip and exhuast give you another 70hps yes 70. I have seen many s4's run LOW 13's with just the chip and a cat back. guys with downpipes are breaking into the 12's.

now on a track the m is clearly a superior car in the right hands but be careful out there they are much faster than people give them credit for!

by the way if I had to put money on my friends 95 m3 with a 3.2l conversion (obd1, intake, chip, throttle body, exhuast) my money is on my s4 in a straight line!

OldrM3,
It's hard to compare a NA car vs a Turbo car with all wheel drive, and 6 speed. Although I will say that the 5th gear of an M3 is dangerous!

I have been considering an S4 for over a year now, but can't seem to get a solid justification for it..
What are realistic HP numbers that can be achieved without destroying parts?

My Supercharged 3.0L M3 puts out about 360HP now with no issues, and I walk away from S4s with chip and exhausts.

Do you think the S4 can get to 400hp comfortably?

Greg

have to reinforce some things like the tranny! I have seen the dynos for chipped exhuasted s4's at around 325hp, downpipes get it close to 340hp (ie 90hps more than stock). 400hp and higher would be possible with new (bigger) turbos and some upgrades (clutch and tranny). There is a guy in AZ running mid 12's 12.4 I think is his best with upgraded turbos but not new software. That is pretty fing fast for a 3800lb car! I would think it would be about 10k in mods to get into the low 12's MAYBE high 11's. not sure what is at risk at that point other than the things I mentioned but the engine itself is relatively bullet proof!

I bought my s4 cause I was at the point where I couldn't drive my m3 in the rain or snow (living in NYC this is a problem). The s4 is fast, the awd rocks and it has 4 doors too. IT is not a RACECAR!!!! it is a fast luxory car so if you want a "high tech rocket" the s4 is great, if you want a street racer stick with the m3!

You will notice that many s4 owners are a lot older than m3 owners.

For me, the S4 question has always been simple - I either handily beat them, or lose badly. Stock examples, when launched agressively, can jump ahead .5 to a full carlength ahead, but I am past them at or before the 60 mph mark. On the highway, I will walk stock S4s, even if they get a slight jump on me.

I have no chance against one with a chip. Indeed, the only way I can take one is by surprise, and only if he doesn't know that we are racing. The s4 is an amazing car in its own right, luxurious, comfortable, and coddling, but delivers little of the razor sharp, driver-oriented communication that I have come to demand from my M3.

I have heard a set of coilovers can do wonders. Unfortunately, I have also heard, and born unfortunate witness to, the S4's seemingly fatal weakness: Blown turbos. My friend Brian was running an APR chip with a fabulous-sounding UUC VM1 exhaust, and we were in the car one night, relaxing in the middle lane, when two kids in an E39 540i pulled up next to us and started baiting. Brian laughed, threw it into gear, and hit WOT. We went nowhere. Then, as the sickly smell of a plasticy, burning substance wafted through the firewall, one of the turbos started whining like a tea kettle.

Blown turbo. And, since they are replaced in pairs, the total cost was well over $7000. Luckily, it was covered under warrantee, which is not always the case. Audiworld is filled with the laments of S4 owners who have blown their turbos and been refused warrantee service. My point? Nice car, great tunability, but in the end that chip can potentially cost you bigtime. With all due respect, oldM3r, I politely disagree with your assertion that the engine is even remotely "bulletproof."

<img src="http://www.jmn1.com/s4surgery/s41.jpg">
<img src="http://www.jmn1.com/s4surgery/s42.jpg">
<img src="http://www.jmn1.com/s4surgery/s43.jpg">
<img src="http://www.jmn1.com/s4surgery/s44.jpg">
<img src="http://www.jmn1.com/s4surgery/s45.jpg">
<img src="http://www.jmn1.com/s4surgery/s46.jpg">
<img src="http://www.jmn1.com/s4surgery/s47.jpg">

but I have never heard of the engine itself having problems, I would argue that the turbo is a bolt on and not part of the engine! the v6 that audi uses, IIRR has been used in the same design for years and years and has handled well north of 500hp. This was not designed to become an s4 is better than an m3 post, it wasn't, it was to educate my fellow m3 drivers that the s4's are damn fast and not to get lazy if a challenge appears especially in one where there is green on the line. that is all!

PS

My m3 had a major issue with the ECU which thankfully was replaced under warranty (dinan) but if you expect to mod your car as much as people are modding the s4, and drive them hard something is gonna give! the turbos blowing problem stems from my experience from either one of the retaining bolts backing off and causing fod (factory defect) or oil starvation (kinks in the oil feeds to the turbos) also factory defect! This is the early in the model life cycle, lets not forget the problems that plague the m line ie oil pan on the e30, tranny being jelly like on the 95 e36, broken heads on the e46 all cars have problems.

Long live bavarian racing!!!

Originally posted by oldM3r
This was not designed to become an s4 is better than an m3 post, it wasn't

I apologize if I somehow gave the impression that I was treating it in such a manner. Such was not my intent, I too am a fan of both cars. My only minor contest is that the turbo, instrumental in augmenting the performance of the engine, is indeed part of the "engine" of any turbo car. A non-issue, really. :)



My m3 had a major issue with the ECU which thankfully was replaced under warranty (dinan) but if you expect to mod your car as much as people are modding the s4, and drive them hard something is gonna give! the turbos blowing problem stems from my experience from either one of the retaining bolts backing off and causing fod (factory defect) or oil starvation (kinks in the oil feeds to the turbos) also factory defect! This is the early in the model life cycle, lets not forget the problems that plague the m line ie oil pan on the e30, tranny being jelly like on the 95 e36, broken heads on the e46 all cars have problems.
Long live bavarian racing!!!

Absolutely no argument here. The better it performs, the sooner it breaks. In my limited experience, at least.

CMT, well said.

Even with the blown turbo issue, I still dig them for the driving experience they deliver (albiet much different than my M3). You have to admire the fat addictive tq band a chipped S4 can provide.

My tastes run to razor handling and a balanced chassis. Having a bit of time on the track, one realizes that handling trumps hp. So, for me, the choice is clear as b/t an M3 and an S4.

The superior throttle response, more purist RWD platform, and the prospect of 300+ n/a hp of the M3 are also very attractive to me.

Jeff

never meant to start a debate

not sure why you guys think the m3 has better throttle response than the s4, my m3 has a dinan throttle body with bigger injectors and I think the s4 kicks faster, well after I modded the by pass valves! and did a drive by wire throttle adaption

Hi guys Im back.
Oldm3r much of what you say is definetly true. The s4 is an impressive car. In my line of work, I have driven a large number of s4s and yes they all seem to have lag. Even the ones with bypass valve upgrades. (or any other upgrade ,ecu, downpipes,etc.) Yes the lag is less noticable, but there none the less. You are all correct about the chip, with one the s4 will make us freeway toast. However, stock for my OBD2 modified M3, it was DEAD even with the S4 like I said until 130 MPH. Also the razor sharp handling of the M3 paid off at the autocross; I outran him by a couple of seconds. Anyways, the only thing you can do with the potential challenge of a modified S4 is to outdrive him.
My .02 anyways.
:clap: :dunno
-Alex

Originally posted by oldM3r
but I have never heard of the engine itself having problems, I would argue that the turbo is a bolt on and not part of the engine! the v6 that audi uses, IIRR has been used in the same design for years and years and has handled well north of 500hp. This was not designed to become an s4 is better than an m3 post, it wasn't, it was to educate my fellow m3 drivers that the s4's are damn fast and not to get lazy if a challenge appears especially in one where there is green on the line. that is all!

PS

My m3 had a major issue with the ECU which thankfully was replaced under warranty (dinan) but if you expect to mod your car as much as people are modding the s4, and drive them hard something is gonna give! the turbos blowing problem stems from my experience from either one of the retaining bolts backing off and causing fod (factory defect) or oil starvation (kinks in the oil feeds to the turbos) also factory defect! This is the early in the model life cycle, lets not forget the problems that plague the m line ie oil pan on the e30, tranny being jelly like on the 95 e36, broken heads on the e46 all cars have problems.

Long live bavarian racing!!!

Well said old m3.

I would think the biggest enemy to the S4 at the Auto-X versus an E36 M3 would be the weight, chip or not, I have friends in Mustangs who lose to Miatas at the Road course...

I know that over here the E36 M3 had 321hp and that was a stock version.Now I agree when you say the AUDI S4 is fast but lets not forget they use turbo's , BMW doesn't.
When you would turbocharge an E36 M3 then it would be a fair race because then both cars are supercharged.
So an E36 M3 with turbocharger would have like ...what , 400hp , maybe 420hp.
So if you run even with an S4 your car is a lot faster because hes supercharged and a stock E36 M3 with 321hp isn't.
Anyway I know that those are European specs but still I think that you guys know what I mean right ?
Audi needs to supercharge their engines to keep up in the race against BMW.

Originally posted by Der Abt
Now I agree when you say the AUDI S4 is fast but lets not forget they use turbo's , BMW doesn't.
Audi needs to supercharge their engines to keep up in the race against BMW.

Sorry Abt, but here you are wrong. Audi does not "need" turbos to keep up with BMW power-wise. Early in their history, they made a conscious decision to go with turbocharged, low-displacement engines. They did this with great success for many years, building a great racing heritage as they went along.
Other than that they know how to build high-powered NA engines just fine - it's just that the S4 didn't go that route.

Here is some proof of what I am saying:
- The S8 makes 360HP from 4.2L, NA. That's 85.7HP/L, higher than the 80 HP/L in the M5.
- The RS4 makes 380HP from a 2.7L. It's basically an S4 engine, with a better-flowing head and bigger turbos. So yes the S4 engine can go to 400HP if done well.

So please stop comparing BMW's and Audi's prick lengths... metaphorically :).

adc

Well just to throw a third party perspective in here on the freeway prowess of both cars I'll interject my experiance. Ive raced both an E36 and an S4 on the freeway. Now, the M was stock, the S wasn't so that does jade the views a bit. But i have seen two stock S4s at the track in the past. Let me say, just IMHO, that an E36 M3 would all but have to have a power adder to hold up with an S4. If you hunt down my account of a highway encounter with an S4 the other nigth you will see what i mean. Its no big deal to put multiple lenghts on an E 36 from a roll (or a stop for that matter) but against that S4 i was going nowhere fast and somewhere at an excruciatingly slow pull. Granted he was modded but those things pull an honest .5 to .7 faster times, consitantly, than do E36 M cars in the 1/4, with a good 5-7 mph on top of that. I trap about 108-109 on a good run and thats in the ballpark for a blown E 36 or a slightly modded S4. On the road course or AutoX, i'll let yall duke that one out. But strait away runs the E 36 needs some serious help against an S4. Just my .02 Peace.

I'm just saying that if an M3 or M5 stock can take on supercharged AUDI's , then imagine how fast those BMW's would be with superchargers.

Originally posted by Der Abt
I'm just saying that if an M3 or M5 stock can take on supercharged AUDI's , then imagine how fast those BMW's would be with superchargers.




:worship: Blown M3/M5. But if i had my choice....my ultimate Bimmer is a blown 02 M Coupe :luvlove:

I know M3's and S4's are about the same speed stock vs. stock so I am not arguing with that but..... I dont understand how.

The S4 is ALOT heavier. Someone mentioned 3800lbs but I think its closer to 3500lbs. The M3 is about 3150.

The S4 loses about twice as much power thru its driveline. My friend with his S4 said 30%. The M3's lose about 16-17%.

Just looking at these two facts, from a 20mph roll, the M3 should whoop ass on the S4.

Maybe its that nice turbo torque curve the S4's have.

I have a ? on hte 4.2l audi, first off all the numbers i have seen the 4.2ls or slow as molasses. and the m5 is a 4.0 NOT a 4.2 and it makes 395. nad will still smoke the s8. Keep in mind the s8 will compete with the 7 series NOT teh 5 series.

On an unreladed note. . . . Spencer, is that a widebody M3 I see?

Well I can't wait when that E65 760i comes out.
Believe me , that is going to be a heartbreaker , cya S8 and Mercedes S class , better luck next time.:)

Yes I would say a stock supercharged AUDI is as fast as a stock NOT supercharged M3.

PHATNA-Z, be patient, by the end of summer, RMS will have one. They are working on a Vortech s/c on the S54 motor in the M Roadster and Coupe (a dicey proposition with a stock 12.5:1 compression ratio) and they have a test mule with only 5 psi on it, 465 bhp so far.... :eek:

m5 is a 5.0 liter (with rounding) not 4.0. it's a bored version of the 4.4 that's in the 540/740.

Just to clear things up;)
http://www.velocityjrnl.com/jrnl/2000/v2kmdl239spec.html

Yeah, it's like a 4.9 or something with 396 bhp...

I ran a chipped S4 from 45mph+ on I5. I had all my track equipment in the car (70lb jack, 4 tires and wheels) and we both had a passenger.

It was even and I actually pulled little. This guy claimed his car ran a 13.0 but it was only at 105mph. So, good drag racer but not that impressive at speed. My M5 only has a chip (maybe 25-30hp).

I don't do stoplight racing. I have also driven a chipped S4 and it was strong down low but there was no power past 5k rpm's. Plus the shifter, even with UUC kit, felt like crap.

Go to audiworld.com and check out their current main feature, called "RS4 Sedan". It's a massaged S4 with a host of goodies that make it even more powerful than the Euro-only RS4 wagon.

Check out the power output of that car, the brakes, suspension and wheels, all the while remembering it comes from a measly 2.7L of displacement. Also remember this is not the wildest tuned car by any stretch of the imagination (people tune RS4s in Europe, yielding 550+ HP monsters).

And yes, I am a BMW fan, not here to stir any flames. I just think that people sometime forget what a nice car a modded S4 can really be, even though it starts out a lot crappier than the M3 in certain areas when stock.

Peace,
adc

98 M3
98 A4

Well I think that 550hp can be beaten easily with a supercharged M3 or M5 .
I saw an E46 328i Breyton with 530hp and a top speed of 328km/h and from 0-100km/h under 4.7sec.

But ADC no prob buddy I know what you mean and I hear ya

But then you start comparing awfully expensive modified cars to near stock. For an S4 to hit supercar territory it needs at least bigger turbos (KO4's) and then you are talking some serious change. 2.7 liters is not so small for a turbocharged engine. Also, when it gets that extreme you are not talking about a long term car but a hot rod.

I could buy an E34 M5 for about $20k, rebuild the engine and add a supercharger, big brakes, suspension, etc. for way less money than an S4 and have just as nice and capable a car.

The point of my post was that simple stage 1 chipped S4's are not such screamers other than from a dead stop. Their brakes and suspension are woefully inadequate compared to even an E36 M3. With that said, if there wasn't BMW's I would be driving an Audi.

Originally posted by SilverStreak
PHATNA-Z, be patient, by the end of summer, RMS will have one. They are working on a Vortech s/c on the S54 motor in the M Roadster and Coupe (a dicey proposition with a stock 12.5:1 compression ratio) and they have a test mule with only 5 psi on it, 465 bhp so far.... :eek:

Ya know....theres a very short list of cars that i would trade my Z for but a blower equipped M coupe is on it. I didnt know they had such a high CR....that is about 2 or 3 ratios too high for a "blower motor". But still, to me that would be the ultimate bad ass car. I know the look of the M coupe is very touchy subject, even in dedicated bimmer circles, but to me it looks bad as hell. And to have one that would bang out a low 11...........:alright

the M Coupe is very unique looking and also very rare, you just don't see that many around, cuz they only made like 1000-2000 a year tops...

The compression ratio on my motor was 10.2:1, which is kinda high too...

I believe they are using water injection in that RMS M Coupe to help prevent detonation from what I was told, but it's still rumors right now...

But considering you can get an 02 M Coupe for like $42K most times from dealers, about $6-7K for the blower, you'd be under $50K for a car that scoots pretty well... :)

They're selling a white M Coupe by my place. In fact, I'm going to the dealership tonight, but not for me, for my friend. :( Had I the $$$, she'd be coming home with me tonight. Still waiting for Dave's killer 3rd quarter. ;)

You and me both, bud. :D

Well at least I'm coming home with a Supra tonight... although it's not mine.

Not yours? Beat it! :D

Originally posted by SilverStreak
Not yours? Beat it! :D

Shaaa, while it's still stock! :D

The guy who's buying it though already owned one before so he knows how to run it.

No, I meant beat on it, drive it like you stole it, romp on it, etc... :D

Originally posted by SilverStreak
No, I meant beat on it, drive it like you stole it, romp on it, etc... :D

Doh! I would unleash the wrath of God from my friend if I did anything like that. :( Maybe when he's not looking... ;) I have to be careful though, he's helping me with my shocks/springs installation next week, wouldn't want him to "accidentally" forget to torque down a nut all the way.

Well, of course, you ask him if you can thrash it, first.... ;)

Originally posted by SilverStreak
Well, of course, you ask him if you can thrash it, first.... ;)

"Uh, hey, can I thrash your new silver Supra Turbo?" You think he'll go for that? Maybe if I threw in a please...

You never know unless you ask... :evil2

400hp S4?

BillyT is running 440hp on his stock 1.8T bottom end....