Got my '98 M3 back today with the following installed by a local JL Audio/Alpine dealer/installer who has a pretty good reputation:

Alpine CDA-9833 Head Unit
JL Audio 500/5 Amp
JL Audio AR525-Csi (2 way component front speakers)
JL Audio Stealthboxes

Used the plan/design found here: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=181676

Seemed to make sense, so I took the plunge and dropped a bunch of $$ on it. Problem is that it sounds bad, really bad. I have spent the last 4 hours tweaking the head unit sound settings including the EQ, crossover, time correction, bass focus with no improvement. The factory settings (Pop, Rock, Flat, etc), even sound crappy so I don't think it is me screwing up the custom settings. The stock GM system in my Chevy Avalanche sounds 10 times better....and it cost about 1/4 of what I have in this mess.

The fronts sound very contstrained, overly bright and lifeless. Almost reminds me of an old AM radio, can't seem to get them to come to life, sound flat and cheap. Absolutely no mid range power, fill or warmth. I have heard these speakers in other cars and they sounded outstanding, so I don't think they were a bad choice. This is the main problem.

I have only one idea at this point. It appears that the installer used the crossovers that came with the speakers, which Charlie did not in the system he describes in his post above. I am no audio expert, so is it possible that this is the cause? If not, what else should I try?

The other problem may be just my taste, but the Stealthboxes in the rear are just completely overpowering the fronts with monotone non-musical lows. We turned down the gain on the amp for them and I can control the subwoofer level at the head unit, but I cannot make them sound musical at all.... This may not be the set up for my taste in music. I do not listen to hip hop etc, but prefer older rock, blues, even some classical. What I hear right now is a lot of two dimensional brassy highs from the front and dull thuds from the rear. It is really bad. Are the Stealthboxes supposed to be for effect only and no musical lows? Maybe I need to yank the Stealthboxes and go for the fill with some 2 or 3 ways for the rear?

These may be two different issues/problems but the combination of the two has left me with the worst stereo system I have owned in 30 years. Oh and yeah... it is the most expensive system I have ever owned too...

how are the fronts installed?
i'm guessing kickpanels and stock tweeter location?
my best guess is that those guys crossed the fronts and the stealths too high
stealthboxes are subwoofers, they are supposed to handle the lows but when crossed high they sound like shiat. (if you can distiguish (sp?) that the sound of the sealthboxes comes from the back, then they are crossed very high. They are supposed to blend in with the fronts and make you feel that the bass is coming from your front stage)
try mounting the tweeters on the a-pillars facing each other or slightly tilted towards the windshield and lower the crossover point on your amp for both the fronts and the stealths. also try to change the tweeter wires on the crossover to the -3db location if there is one or anything similar (for the lack of midbass and harshness of the tweeters)

its all about install. trial and error always does the trick. experiment

why 5 chan amp btw?

Thanks for the input. The set up (and why a 5 channel am is used), is explained in this post: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=181676

When you say "crossed too high" what do you mean, and what crossover values would you suggest?

my oh my... is this what you mean?

Now the newer Alpine Head Units allow us to do exactly what was done with external processors for timing, crossovers, and eqs all at the head unit. We grab the 500/5 amp, use channels 1+2 (fronts) for the mis-bass drivers (woofers) and use channel 3+4 (rears) for the tweeters (extremely efficient, tweeters don't need tons of power) and the 250x1 for the Stealthbox subs.

then you'd have to toss away the passive crossovers that came with your components and:
connect the tweeters to the rear channels of the amp
connect the mids to the front channels of the amp
connect the front output of the head unit to the rear speaker input of the amp
connect the rear output of the head unit to th efront speaker input of the amp
set the crossover on 3-way mode
adjust crossover points as desired
for low, 50-80hz lowpass (your call, experiment)
for mid high ( the freq you deside for the above)
for mid low (around 3-5khz, depends on what the speakers can handle and what you want)
for high (the freq you deside for the above)

the online pdf manual has a typo btw... Under 3-way the MID-L has to be MID-H and vise versa cause it doesnt make sense otherwise. the table above has them right though

its late and i'm exhausted, somebody correct me if i'm wrong


hope that helps and, be very careful cause a mistake could mean blown tweeters

oh, forgot the slopes, 24db for everything and 12db for the sub is commonly used, but its also your call

Go back to the shop and tell them to make it sound right or you will take it to another dealer - at their expense. Normally I don't like to go around threatening people, but here it sounds like this shop held themselves out as experts and you relied on them to deliver a specific result, which they knew about in advance. If they fail to give it a try, maybe you need to go to another shop and see what they can do, and for how much. Have an attorney write a letter on your behalf if you need to. Also, if you paid for the purchase via credit card, you may be able to dispute the charge if you register your complaint with the card company immediately.

You have very decent quality speakers and amp, so my guess is that the cross-overs are not set right. I hope they didn't use your stock amp's crossovers! I have heard these stealth boxes before and they didn't sound half bad. Based on what you're describing, my guess is the install is the culprit. Chances are low you happened to end up with poorly manufactered drivers, amp, and HU.

Thanks for all the suggestions, took it back today and printed the suggestions and Charlie's original post to show them what I wanted done. They were very understanding and assured me they would take care of it. And they did.....

Seems that the crossover settings in the amp were the primary problem as you suspected. I asked again about taking the speaker crossovers out and they said they would not recommend it. Turns out they called JL Audio and spent a fair amount of time with them on the phone to straighten this out. The asked JL tech support about taking the speaker xovers out, even with the xover function in the Alpine head and the emphatically said not to remove them, that the problem was in the amp setup.

Anyway, it now sounds awesome and I have a ton of flexibility and control from the head unit. XM going in as soon as the parts show up....

it doesn't surprise me that they don't want to remove the passives - it's a simple "insurance" plan...

that shop must have excellent cust. service
since you originaly got the 500/5 to get rid of the passives it doesnt hurt to try.
those guys must have no experiense in bi-amping, thats why they wouldnt reccomend it. first time i heard about getting rid of the passives i thought it was dumb but it works wonders when setup right.
go back and show them my previous post where i explain how everything should be setup and tell them to give it shot after they call jl and get some frequency responces of the speakers

Well I've had a few people ask me that question. Simple answer, every speaker's company's manufactuer is going to recommend to keep "their" X-overs as a security measure.

The other thing, make sure the fronts RCAs actually are going into the REAR input of the JL 500/5. That has been the cluprit for 2 other people. The 100wx2 is on the front section of the amp, and thats why you will get bright highs...cause nothing but 100watts to tweeters is killer...

Make sure the 100wx2 (front section of the 500/5) is going to the woofers (rear outputs of the headunit, or in 3 way mode bandpass) And the Front outputs of the headunit (or high pass off the radio) going into the rear section of the amp.

That said, I wouldn't have PERSONALLY chose the JL speakers. You listed AR, but I'm assuming XR. Even then, they still only recommend RMS of 60, and thats for both components. Speaker of choice for most customers is the following:

1) Dynaudio System 220MKII (5.75" 2-way setup)
2) Alpine SPX-Z15M F1 Status (6" 2-way setup)
2) Boston Acoustics Z5 (5.25" 2-way setup)
3) Boston Acoustics Pro 5.5 (5.25 2-way setup)
4) MB Quarts QSD-213 (5.25" 2-way setup)
5) Focal Utopia
6) Image Dynamics

Thats about the order I'd choose from.
I've personally met with JL Audio's president, we've talked briefly (more marketing on their behalf) but he even agrees, when done right...this setup is awesome.

And I used JL AMPs and JL Stealthboxes like crazy....
Like mentioned...Every S2000, Every Vette, Every Camaro/Firebird, every 350Z (only one I don't use Stelathboxes on, cause I get a much more stealthier install for), NSX, etc...

Good Luck.

Thanks for checking in Charlie. I chose the JL XRs because I heard them in my brother's Z06 and liked them. I might go back with some different fronts later just to see....

It really is a great set up though, thanks for your original post on this.

this may not be the setup for me. I have tried many different settings with the Alpine 9833 HU and can't seem to produce enough smooth mid-bass from the JL XR525-CSi front speakers. Vocal, guitar, some horns sound thin and unsupported. I need advice/help from you guys that have this setup please..... I am looking at a couple of possible causes and options:

1) Charlie stated that he would not have chosen the JL fronts, but I heard them in my brother's Z06 and really like them. Could other fronts suggested by Charlie in his response above really make the difference I am looking for?

2) The JL 500/1 amp and 9833 HU settings may still not be right or best. Can anyone with this setup send the settings they like? Also tried to set the 9833 with the I-Personalize and data down load feature on the Alpine web site. Guess it is smarter than I am..... If anyone has setup files they like and can ship to me that would be awesome. This HU has EQ, xover and time correction, which is all pretty cool until you try to adjust them for the best sound, then it becomes overwhelming.....

3) The JL Stealthboxes are great, but (as designed), they only address the very low ranges. Maybe I need to replace them with 2 or 3 ways in the rear to fill that missing mid-range? I really wanted to use the stealthboxes since they take up no additional space, but if I get the right full range units to fill in the back I could add a (small), separate subwoofer later if needed. What full range rears would you recommend that would fit the stock mounts? And I assume that will mean a different amp, so what would work best for that?

Thanks for the input. I suspect this setup can be made to sound better than it does now or I just need to fill from the back. But I am looking for any other suggestions you might have.

I am always a little disappointed when I hear about a new install that doesn't work out as planned. This isn't the end of the world, just the start of the experimentation you will need to do to make things sound right. With a little luck you will not have to spend a lot more on getting additional equipment.

I am surprised you don't like your front stage. I have nothing against JL but didn't you demo the speakers before you bought them? You probably don't have them tuned right so I would keep them.

As for the rear fill, that is very important to me and that is why I highly recommend taking out the stealthboxes and replacing them with coaxials, components if you are a perfectionist. Brand is not important, but should match the tonal quality of your front stage once you have it set up properly.

I have a lot of clear bass in my system and I think no stealthboxes will be able to match the bass output of a single 10" or 12" in a sealed or ported box. When I had a single Eclipse 12" it was in a 1.5 c.f. sealed box (roughly 13" a side) and that thing pounded with only 120 W RMS. When I hooked up a 1000W mono amp that sub absolutely kicked ass. But in the end the sub couldn't handle that amount of power and that's when I replaced that sub with a 12W7. You don't need a 12W7 or 1000W. I would recommend starting out with something a bit tamer, like any 12" sub that can handle 300W RMS mono. And of course a dedicated amp that can provide the needed amount of power. You can pick up a 300W amp off ebay for less than $100. Not sure of the quality, but it would probably do the job.

See if you can return those stealthboxes. If not, sell them on ebay.

I think if you put in some rear fill you will enjoy a fuller spectrum of sound, and the separate sub will give you the bass you are missing out on now. But before going down this route, see if others can give you ideas on how to get your current equipment working right.

Bump

WTH is "bump?"

Just trying to keep this post on the top of the stack to hopefully get some additional input. Thanks for yours. Plan B is to replace the stealthboxes, but I really want to try to get some detailed amp and HU settings that have worked for others before I make that decision.....

Register at Elitecaraudio.com, read read read, search search search, experiment x3, be happy :)

I'm running ScanSpeak Revs and LPG tweets off a Tru T4.100v2 and a JL13W7 of a Tru SH-1; processing via an Alpine H700. Very happy :D

Alright, sumtoc...please explain exactly what you have. In what order and everything, becuase in your post above, you said jl 500/1. I'm hoping you have the jl 500/5.

Make sure the switch on the alpine cda-9833 is on 3-way (switch on the body of the radio before you install the unit) Make sure you sit there and tune the crossovers settings ON the radio. Make sure the following:

FRONT RCAs from 9833 --> Rear Section of JL 500/5 --> Front tweeters
REAR RCAs from 9833 --> Front Section of JL 500/5 --> Front Woofers
SUB RCAs from 9833 --> Sub section of JL 500/5 --> Stealthboxes

Now where did you get this installed, I'm surprised because if you take this to a decent shop, they should tune everything for you. And if you sell JL and Alpine and don't know how to tune an Alpine radio to its fullest ability, then you have no point in selling alpine over anything else (alright so thats an overstatement...)

But in reality, I do it about once a month...
Email me in detail exactly how things are wired.
Thanks.
Charlie.

Charlie, thanks for your offer to help. Yes, it is a 500/5, that was a typo.

I will double check the hookup this weekend, but I am pretty sure that it is correct. I spoke with the installer and I get the sense that the hookup made sense to them but they might not understand how to optimize all the various combinations of settins on the amp and HU.

What I was hoping for was a list of settings for the 500/5 and the 9833 that you have used in an M3. Amp adjustments plus all the details for the 9833 like the Eq, crossover, time correction settings. That way I know I am listening to a reasonably good setup (assuming the hookup is right), and I can decide if I want to stay with this combination of components.

Hope that makes sense.......

I have a couple of questions...

1) Did you remove the passive x-overs?
2) Where are the tweeters mounted?

Question 1 will help me understand if you are getting the full benefit of the design. If the passive x-overs remain in the system, you may be getting some attenuation from the x-over.

Question 2 is more likely the culprit. If your tweeters are mounted in the factory location pointing towards each other and if the JL tweeters have poor off-axis response, then you will notice the gap near the x-over point. When I mounted my Dynaudio tweeters (very bad off-axis response), I played with the aiming of the tweeters and when they were configured perpendicular to the door panel (flush mount) I noticed a sound gap in the area where the tweeter and woofer met. If you want the flush mount, then I would recommend MB Quarts due to their more forgiving off-axis response.