Just pondering late at night...what would be the best DM Motor (e36)?

The Dm limit is 2980cc.

The engine from a 330i is 2979cc.

I know theres been some talk about using these engines, and technically it fits into the rules.

So I was wondering if anyone had experience using this setup?

Figure raised compression, headwork, worked internals (lighter balanced & blueprinted), KK/custom headers back, some hot cams, and a couple hours on the dyno with some stickley tuning, and you're looking at 330hp+ with some damn good flat torque.

If I decide to keep this wcm3, I will want a quicker engine and still be in DM (CM guys will just be too expensive to keep up with hehe). And I can sell this stickley 2.5L WC spec motor I have now as its a full fresh rebuild to help fund.

Any opinions on this engine setup, or comments from experience would be appreciated.

Thanks :D

Also how much work would it be to drop an E39 M5 engine and its 6spd into an E36?

Also how much work would it be to drop an E39 M5 engine and its 6spd into an E36?

Probably more than you want to ponder...you basically need to build a custom front end and subframe. In fact, almost EVERYTHING you need would have to be custom or purchased from PTG. Then, you need to expensive Motec setup to run it properly, including a few "add-ons" over the stock Motec system. You would likely need to go to a medium case diff as well to handle the torque.

We looked into it and settled on building a 3.2 Euro because it was going to be much cheaper by a HUGE margin...just picked it up from the builder on Sunday. :redspot

Yea, I did some more research last night, and it's going to be a major hassle.

BUt what do you think about the 330 engine idea?

330 sounds good...the rule was 2998cc at one point until Al Zilinsky realized that the 3.0 liter Euro was 2997 (my numbers may not be exactly right, but you get the point), and started running his BMod (before the CMod switch) car in DMod. ;)

Yea, J.lin just suggested I destrok a euro 3L instead, since the 330 has such awkward ECU stuff... basically it would need stand alone.

I was just curious what options here were. the power/weight it has now should be more than satisfactory until I can really be good enough to push the car, you know?

The ultimate D-Mod engine, would be a slightly de-stroked S50B30 Euro. You might be able to "offset" grind the stock crank and use custom pistons. But it may require a custom crank.

Remember this engine in GrpA trim produces 380hp at 8500 rpm. Ok, so maybe you make 375 instead of 380 with the destroking. You can make this power using a Bosch Computer, GrpA cams, Big Ass Airbox, GrpA HFM.

Too much $$$$, Jeff and I had a nice chat about it before, basically I'll see how happy I am with what I have, I dont think i'll need 380hp for a dm car lol,especially if that costs $30K.

At that point, you might as well just go CMod...you can get 400hp for much less than $30K out of a 3.2 Euro.

At that point, you might as well just go CMod...you can get 400hp for much less than $30K out of a 3.2 Euro.

Haha that's what I was trying to avoid... too much money needs to be spent to be competitive in CM, I would rather compete in DM with a decent engine for DM.

For CM I'd have to spend $35K for the ordeal....asopposed to $15-20 on a newly built 2980cc with 325hp :)

Figure you can get a Used 380-400hp setup ready to bolt in with stand alone and data acq for $30K. But then you got the extra maintance and parts are pricey. Just more then I would want to spend... thats more then the damn car!


Well, lets say I pickup a euro 3.2 complete, that runs about $15K, the new built parts, internal, external, accessories, software tuning, install, etc is going to run another 10-15k... thats $25K already...and theres always extra costs that come up. Unless you know some secret to build a 400hp euro 3.2 for WAY under 30K... let me in on it! Other then buying one used, which they are usually going for 25-30K aswell. :help I dont got that kind if money for this toy. I doubt I could get toomuch for this 2.5L Wc engine, maybe $10-12K.

Whoa! your #s are on the high side

A used Euro 3.2L from a street car is more like <8,000

JL

And what management is that using, not the race setups.....And even if its stock it'll need grpx or motec, thats a solid 4K.

Unless someone sells thier Cm engine cheap, and its fresh, I'd take it, but thats a big to do.

Sofronas was selling a 3.2 euro ptg engine with 400hp, efi/motec for $30K, not sure what it sold for, but i am sure he did not let it go for much less.

That honestly sounds like way too much for a used 400hp motor...we won't even have that much in our new motor.

Well as far as its worth goes:
PTG Built 3.2 euro and Motec with complete Data acq ($7500+ just for that).

$30K seems about right. If you call Blam/stickley you'll probably get a smilar price with all tht goes into that core buildup. PTG would porbably charge $40K for a ground up freshly built 420hp 3.2 euro with full datat acq and motec tuned ready to bolt in.

I dont even want to type out what S54 prices I have been hearing!

Also, if you can price me out ALL the fees that would come with buying and having everything shipped and coordinated for the euro 3.2 swap, including the parts, install, dynoing, instal... Curious to see what your costs are. Because I garuntee a solid 5-7.5K will come out of nowhere on top of whatever is planned for the job to get done right.

We'll see when we get this thing mounted up to the chassis dyno for the final tuning this week...I do take for granted that we have free dyno time, but other than that, I still think a 400+ motor can be done cheaper and without the need for Motec. Noted, we won't be running the dry sump, which I'm sure adds some cost to the PTG setup...just thought about that.

I'm not sure on the life of the motor, but if it was a recent rebuild, it's worth that, for sure! It had all the bells and whistles, not just an off the shelf euro 3.2 build. itprobably had about 420hp, and gobs of torque, but probably only power above 4500 or so. And a short lifespan :(

EITHERWAY, haha, back on topic.

I'll just have to see if this thing is quick enough on the straights, thats all i'm worried about. Since its just a fun toy for this year, i'm not worried at all. And frankly, I was just pondering what would be the best if i did decide it was not quick enough.

Until I can really push this car, I won't even bother taking mroe weight off. I can still get another 75-100lbs off the car, and its already 2450lbs wet.

Anyways, looks like i'll be keeping this 2.5L wc engine for atleast this year. Maybe I can just have it built a little more since WC spec motors are not that modified. Maybe bump it from 2.5 to 2.8, some head work, etc. The motor has a whole new bottom end, so it should not be too big of a deal. Maybe $5K for another 40hp and some torque....Its barely even modified, as wc does not allow much, and its at about 235whp now (approx 275bhp) with the bosch setup.

When it had motec, it was 290bhp, but the exact same torque. So thats definitely a possibility.

Thanks for your help guys :)

Steve, on Euro 3.2L, u can use stock ECU, but if you change the motor finding somebody to tune the stock ecu will be hard to find. You have to deal with EWS as well, but it can be done. Some folks have used the unichip

Now staying on Topic....how would you build the BEST DM engine...Lets assume you go with my suggestion of a destroked Euro 3.0L.....Here's what you can do.

Used Euro 3.0L Engine ($4500-$6000) for a core with all ancillaries and Bosch ECU.

Rebuild - new pistons, rings, bearings and assembly, valve job, $4000-$5000 ( I was quoted this on my Euro 3.0 for a stock rebuild)

Offset Grind Crank to shorten the stroke, $500. This might work, if you need a custom crank its more like $2000. Note: to make a 3.2L, get the re-conditioned 3.2L crank for $1000.

GrpA Cams, figure $1500

Dual Pickup Pan/Pump: $1500 (or use VAC drysump $$$)

GrpA Carbon Airbox I don't know how much this is, but I believe "knock offs" are like $2000 and the real McCoy $5000

GrpA HFM, this is NLA, but the one from a 911 TT *might* work. Figure $500

ECU: Use Stock Bosch ECUs with GrpA programs (yes BMW has software for all this). The Euro 3.0L has 2 computers. The Vanos is controlled with a 2nd computer.

Ok, so this is more like $15500-$18000. The main reason this is less $$$ is that you can use the Stock ECUs.

Since you are changing the displacement by such a small amount the standard GrpA 3.0 L programming should be ok.

This setup should produce 380ish HP at 8500 rpm.

If you run a different computer setup and can get rid of the HFM. 400hp is possible. At 3.2L, 400 hp is possible with Bosch or 420hp with MOTEC/EFI.

Kewmpower in Belgium has some data on these types of engines. www.kempower.be

Wow, now thats the price break down I was looking for thanks!

I guess that could be a possibility, plus add about $5K for extra bullshit that will come up no matter what, and we're looking at $25K with stand alone. Thats actually not bad for 400hp...something i'll have to think about since thats the worth of the car :(

I already forgot another item....HEADER...that's probably $3,000

Wow, now thats the price break down I was looking for thanks!

I guess that could be a possibility, plus add about $5K for extra bullshit that will come up no matter what, and we're looking at $25K with stand alone. Thats actually not bad for 400hp...something i'll have to think about since thats the worth of the car :(

How can you be thinking about this stuff when you haven't even driven the car nor even have a race license? That seems like wasted thought and effort to me because by the time you do both there will be something better out there. Plus by that time your car might not even be competitive in DM because the E46s will be out there then. Drive the car and worry about this shiat later.

Just noticed this on Ebay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=2472651356&category=33615&sspagename=WDVW

Also, I have to agree with Seth...get out there and drive that damn thing first! You've got a great car...get out there and use it in anger before you worry about upgrades/DM/WC/or even ITS/IP for that matter...

Hell...downgrade the cage/motor if you have to and run "cheap" in ITS or prepared...

My 2c...

Yowzers...$30K for 342hp?!? I REALLY hope that's RWHP, but it doesn't indicate so.

I'm still trying to figure how you come up with 380hp. The euro 3.0 made 286 instock trim, then you want to take some displacement away. With the things you talked of adding like a air box, hfm grp. a sowftware and cams do you think the motor would really pick 100hp. Personally I don't think so. I have a friend that runs a euro 3.0 in his race car. he has hot cams, custom software from Stickley and a few other tweaks that I won't mention, but I can tell you for fact he ain't making close that kind of power. Dyno numbers proved. Now granted he doesn't have all that factory grp. A stuff but it can't be miles and miles ahead of the stuff that he has now. Without some kind of standalone management I just don't see it. But you do know a lot more about this motor than I ever will.

I tend to agree with QwickM3, and I am somewhat skeptical about the HP and numbers quoted from a Euro 3.0... If I recall correctly,the 3.0 only rev's to like 8,000RPM max in most of the racing applications I have seen. I think Larry Wright had what he *said* was a 3.0 (probably a bit higher displacement, but the basis of a 3.0 motor) and he didn't rev NEARLY as high as us with our 3.2 Grp. N motor... We're only revving to 8,200 by the way... Franz Blam has advised that unless I want to become a VIP customer, I keep it below there. And for what it's worth, I'm not making anything north of 380hp, if that, from what I've been told...

Everything I have seen on track indicates that the 3.0's don't liked to be revved as high as the 3.2's (be it valvetrain or something else that isn't suited to revving that high), so even with Grp. A cams that would presumably make power up there, I don't think those number would work... I think if it DID work, you'd see a lot of guys running the 3.0's. As it stands, most guys with 3.0's bump the displacement to 3.2ish, and have MAYBE a bit more peak power, and the power is lower (to 8k max), but not nearly the spread of power or the rev's of the 3.2 with dual vanos...

Again, I bet you might know more about it, but this is just what I've seen. I'll tell you, if you can get 380HP out of a DESTROKED 3.0 Euro for that price, you are a genious. There are enough people building these motors in C-Mod alone, that don't have NEAR that power, and are spending WAY more... I just think that your whole theory of HP and price is more than a little off... If I AM wrong, please contact me and let me know if you would like to come work building these motors on the East Coast!!! I think we might be able to make some $$!! :D
-Jeff

Haha, You guys realize that I am only doing this for a hobby, and if I want to speculate and spend my free time at 3am thinking about this...why attack me? Thats not cool. I've spoken privately to everyone in this thread in the past, so i know theres no malintent behind any of it, so we're still cool ;) ...But WTF do you really think I would be sitting here typing if I could go and race anytime!!!!!

I have like 100 hours of work a week! When the hell am I supposed to just leave school, leave formula sae, and just go to the track? Maybe you guys can chat and leave work anytime, but you get paid to work, I have to pay for work!

And telling me not to think about upgrading the car (which I am not, as the post says) c'mon, I can't even think anymore, maybe it'll open up a door for somonelse, why shut down an idea bc you feel you are better then me?....Nothing against him, but look at all these CM guys, they've put beyond serious money into their cars, and for what, screwing around in CM.,... bleh.

Anyways, I am bored in class, so i'm just saying whats on mymind, don't take it all too serously, you guys just have to realize THIS IS A FORUM, just the fact you are responding shows you have too much free time. So GET YOURSELF off the computer and go race before telling me to ;) haha, trust me, i am bailing out the week of finals to go test my car at pocono. But I have a commitment to Formula SAE and that's top priority until summer time, then its all m3 :) ...And my 6 hours a day of summer class for 6 weeks

And on topic about the engine...eitherway you put it its expensive and not worth it unless I get another car...$30k is more then my car! I'll save that money and put it in my gt3rs account ;)

Also, I have to agree with Seth...get out there and drive that damn thing first! You've got a great car...get out there and use it in anger before you worry about upgrades/DM/WC/or even ITS/IP for that matter...

Hell...downgrade the cage/motor if you have to and run "cheap" in ITS or prepared...

My 2c...

1. The car is being played with this year, not being raced. I don't have time to race and barely time to do DE's, so chill. Its justa hobby to help me get mroe experience with my engineeringg educations, and get some fun seat time at the track.

You guys are way too serious, ITS JUST A TOY! I like to know my options, thats why I made this post. I do have a bunch of events planned though, it should be fun. I'm psyched and you should be too!

I really enjoy this forum, but people have been way too seirously lately...maybe its taxes, I dont know. But its just a toy, i probably won't even have timeto race it next year because I think I am taking on fsae core projects.

No offense taken though, I agree with you all, I have to get my ass on the track, but i'm not paying $40k/year to skip out on school :nono

Understand the situation yet :help

Class is over, timeto go, later

You guys are way too serious, ITS JUST A TOY!

That's one hell of an expensive toy to play with and not even drive. I wish I could do that. Where do I sign up?

Yea, all cars are toys...And its really not that expensive. I bet your Hstock car cost more to build then it!

Who said its not being driven... you just gotta mind your own business and worry about your own "secret projects." Thats all, plain and simple. If it does not affect you, dont worry about it :)

No need to get your panties all in a bundle, I just wanted to know where I could sign up for something like that. I tried to mind my own business, remember, but there is a thing called AIM. Now it is your turn. ;)

Nah man, i take it easy all the time, my panties are on straight, dont worry ;) lol

If you want to know where to sign up, I'll AIM ya with the answer. Its a pretty easy club to get into.

Ok, you guys asked about a DM engine not a CM engine...

The stock 3.0L engine is 2990cc, DM limit is 2980cc. If you take the stroke to 85.5mm instead of the stock 85.8mm you get to that displacement. Its a TINY displacement decrease.

So how do u get to 380 ish hp? YOU REV the crap out of it.

To make 380 hp at 8500 rpm, you need to produce 235 lb-ft of torque at 8500 rpm. Notice that 235 lbs-ft of torque is not stretch at all for a 3.0L engine.

With the big cams and big air box, etc, and a bit more compression, you can shift the torque curve to higher rpm. Remember HP = torquexrpm/5252. So if you can mantain the torque through the higher rpm range, you can make more power.

Problem with the #s you are seeing here is that many builders are NOT using the bigger GrpA HFM and GrpA Air Plenum. Those items become the bottleneck above 350 hp.

Now an 8500 rpm motor won't last like stock motor....its probably a 30 - 40 hour engine.

Jeff

Will they let me run a Small block 350 in CM? I think I can slap a BMW cover on and they would never know.

I guess there are lots of engine options, but in the end its Just BMWCCA CR...

How can you be thinking about this stuff when you haven't even driven the car nor even have a race license? That seems like wasted thought and effort to me because by the time you do both there will be something better out there. Plus by that time your car might not even be competitive in DM because the E46s will be out there then. Drive the car and worry about this shiat later.

:stickoutt :lol:

Honestly for the $$$, the best way to go fast....is

1. Drive A lot and get good.
1A Lite car
2. Suspension Setup and TYRES

Look at Scott Smtih. He has 275rwhp with a basically stock and tired Euro 3.2L...he does great because he drives more than anybody.

Screw it, i'll just continue save for a gt3rs and whoop all these m3's HAHA

[QUOTE=like2short]Honestly for the $$$, the best way to go fast....is

1. Drive A lot and get good.
/QUOTE]


BRILLIANT!!!!

Example - My friend who has raced in SCCA for 15 years (I don't claim him to be the best driver out there but he is better IMO than 90%+ of the people out there) ran a best time of 1:00.5 @ limerock over the last 4 years in his car, handed the keys over to a WC driver with TONS of experiance who turned a 59:60 after 8 laps in a car he had never driven!!! Drive the friggin car already :stickoutt

Drive the friggin car already :stickoutt

You don't have to tell me twice (or 3,4,5,6times)...if you could though, can you write out a check for $40K topay for the school I'll be missing, thanks :redspot

You don't have to tell me twice (or 3,4,5,6times)...if you could though, can you write out a check for $40K topay for the school I'll be missing, thanks :redspot


Call daddy, from the sounds of it he will cut you a check! :lol: ;)

That made no sense....

That made no sense....


Sure it did, call daddy for a check.

You ARE kidding with that statement, aren't you? Scott Smith IS a good driver, no doubt about it, but he certainly has VERY solid horsepower pushing him too. At Tremblant we lined up side by side, and if anything he pulled ME a little bit. Same gearing, similar weight, and we both got very good starts... I don't claim to have a PTG super motor, but I certainly don't have a turd for a motor either. So while I agree with your point, let's not exagerate so much, ok? At the end of the day, even a great driver needs decent enough power to do well. Sure handling is cheaper and more important, but don't completely discount power... One need not look any farther than the "Stickley Era" of 2001-2002... With our old motor, I hung with him for 1-3 laps max. You can only push the car so much before the tires crap out and the guy with the power can ease away, without breaking a sweat....
-Jeff