A friend of mine just got a large raise at his job.

We went shopping on Saturday and drove $585,000 worth of cars. He has a budget of around $90k.

We drove:

2001 E55 AMG
2003 M3 Cab SMG
2004 Maserati Spyder Cambiocorsa
2001 Audi S8
2004 Audi RS6
2002 C4S tiptronic
2004 C4S 6MT
2004 Carrera 6MT

My friend has pretty much narrowed it down to the M3 and the C4S. He has a 2000 Audi S4 that he currently uses as a daily driver and will be keeping or trading in on a CPO 2001.5 S4 Avant, so this car is for 'fun'.

I am looking for real world opinions from people who have owned one or both cars as to their respective plusses and minuses. I don't need people to regurtitate the same magazine data I know.

I have driven both and prefer the M3, regardless of price, primarily because of the SMG gearbox (as well as my devotion to the marque.) My friend is leaning towards the M3, but probably likes the C4S better (just not $40k better comparing a used $45k M3 and a used $85k C4S).

With price as a factor, I think the M3 is the clear winnner (IMHO).

M3 is the clear winner if you are a driver. If he really wants a Porsche. Get a GT3. Get a used one with a few thousand miles and you have a rocket that is a great track car. I hate to say it , better than the M3 and I own one. Of course he could get a very low mileage 355 for that dough and that is also a great car. The porsche has just become too civilized. Booring to drive. I test drove a 996TT cabrio and it was boring. Fats but boring. It has become a speed appliance, if you know what i mean. There aree only 3 good porsches left for a true driver. GT2(animal), GT3, Carrera GT.

Well, I can definitely see where your friend is coming from. I have an '03 M3 and my father just put in an order for a 911 C4S Cabrio. The price difference between the two cars (when new) is about $45K which I don't think is worth it.

I love my M3, it does everything I need it to do (and more). Also, I go out to the track about 7-10 times a year and I just love the SMG on the track.

Unless your friend wants the status of the Porsche, I would lean to the M3.

Of course, that raises the question of why my father is getting the C4S instead of the M3 Cabrio. Well, it just comes down to service. He is tired of being treated like crap from the local BMW dealership, and since he has been driving BMWs since the 70s it is time for a change.

Good luck,

For him, this car is probably a 2-3 year driver, with the goal of then stepping up to a Ferrari 360 Modena. The 355 is just in his range, but he really wants a 360, so the 355 doesn't make a whole lot of sense right now.

The Maserati is very nice looking, but the build quality seems very poor, even if the dealer will flatbed it to and from.

All I know is the only car we drove that made me think about getting rid of my NSX was the M3, if only for a moment.

BTW, the M3 Cab we drove was GORGEOUS. Oxford Green with Cinnamon Leather. (And I am not usually a fan of green cars). That car is probably sold by now, since that color is pretty rare, AFAIK.

Drive a 355 spyder and you will want to get rid of the nsx and sell your kids to own it. Mine is the most incredible car I have driven. And I have driven lots of exotics. And I own an 03' M3 convertible. The 355 is pure driving exctasy. It is a near perfect sports car. He could find a very low mileage 95 spyder for about 90K. Either way you go they are both great cars.

Drive a 355 spyder and you will want to get rid of the nsx and sell your kids to own it. Mine is the most incredible car I have driven. And I have driven lots of exotics. And I own an 03' M3 convertible. The 355 is pure driving exctasy. It is a near perfect sports car. He could find a very low mileage 95 spyder for about 90K. Either way you go they are both great cars.

No offense, and I haven't driven a 355 spyder, but a lot of people I know on www.nsxprime.com have owned and/or do own a variety of F-cars, including 355s and 360s, all variety of M3s, 911s, etc. Many of those who have owned 355s seem to rate them as slightly superior to the NA2 NSX, which has similar performance numbers to the 355. Some people just love the NSX for its everyday exotic virtues. One guy on prime just got his 2nd NSX after spending $829,000 over the last few years trying to find something better for him. I think he traded in a 996TT most recently. Of course one would expect to hear such things on an NSX site . . . ;)

In any event, from what he and I understand about the 355, a 1995 is not what we are looking for. Most of the sources I have consulted do not believe the quality is there in the 355 until 98 and 99.

The 355 does have an amazing exhaust note to be sure, very much like an F1 car, and I have no doubt I would be impressed, as would he, but his heart is apparently set on the 360 some time down the road.

I don't have any kids to sell. :stickoutt

tell him to stick with the M3 if he is just looking for an interim car, the c4 is not going to satisfy overall in the long run.

If he wants to bump up to a 996tt, all that is out the window and moves to the head of the class.
Failing that, stick with the M3.

i have an 02 smg and my buddy has a 99 carerra 4 manual, and here's the break down:
it is more comfy in terms of both driver's position and four passangers on the M, the rear seat of the 911 is almost useless. the build on the M is better than a porsche, my friend's has many little rattles and it doesn't sound as refine as an M, fit and finish on those exotic/ low production veh have those problems. the ride on the porsche is softer than an M unless you get the sport suspension, but it'll feel harsh due to it's lack of damping material. performance-wise they're about head to head, but i feel more confident in my M not only because i'm used to it, but because of the sitting position; plus, my friend feels the same, too. maintainence cost on the porsche is a little more than the M, he had all the brakes replaced and costed him $1800 when a bimmer costs ~ $1200, and his l/o/f is ~ $300, and they're both dealer prices. Here's the best part, the sound of the engine is just music to the ear, although i love the high rev sound on the M, but the 911's anytime rumble is just beautiful. Last but shoud be first, 911 gets more attention than any bimmer.
driving a porsche or a ferrari is more about class rather than performance, i was shopping for a 993 before i came across with my M, but i still want to own an 911. if i had own an 911, i don't think i'd miss the opportunity of owning an M. IMO, get a porsche.

is this even a question? brand loyalty aside, porsche all the way. no if's and's or but's about it...

I disagree E30sd. I looked at the C2, C4, and C4S prior to settling on the E46 M3. I really did not think the porsche was worth the money. For that price, I would pick up a 97+ NSX. Seriously. I was sorely disappointed in the porsche NA series. I think the only one I would consider is the 993 '96-'97 turbo line or GT2. I was enamored that hey, I can drive a porsche. But, then, when I thought about it -- the E46 M3 is a GREAT buy compared to the C4S IMO. ESPECIALLY if he is not tracking it ... most people drive no more than 6/10th's on the street and those that drive more, are suicidal maniacs ... :stickoutt

I think the wiser choice would be the E46 M3 -- I would still say after all of those cars, seriously consider a Zanardi NSX. Very rare, very cool. I was impressed with the NSX ... for the price, hard to beat. If he really wants a driver's car .... for under $50K ... NO OTHER car can beat a Z06 IMO. Best bang for your buck.

But, if he is looking for status cars ... well, then knock off the E46 M3 from the list. Go with the maserati, ferrari, or porsche.

take the ///M3. forget about all any Porsche beside TT, GT3. all the regular Porsche C2/C4/C4S isn't much better than a M3 and certainly not 20+k better at all!! my bro in law owned the last 3 gen. of 911 included a 01' 996TT before he steps up to a 360 Modena. and I had put quite a few mileage on all of them. I would say only the TT and the GT3 is worth to trade my M3 in! (and I did thinking to get either one after the M3....) with your friend's budget, around 90k, you could certainly get a used 996TT or a GT3 already!! take a good look at those and remember, don't worry about the stealer's asking price! you could neg. a good chuck of $ off the asking price on Porsche!!

with all the car you listed, none of those could make me want to replace for the M3 at all!! besides the 996TT/GT3!!

IFor that price, I would pick up a 97+ NSX.

**
I would still say after all of those cars, seriously consider a Zanardi NSX. Very rare, very cool. I was impressed with the NSX ... for the price, hard to beat. If he really wants a driver's car .... for under $50K ... NO OTHER car can beat a Z06 IMO. Best bang for your buck.


He has driven my NA1 (North-American, First Generation, i.e. 3.0/5MT) NSX in the past, and likes it, but is reluctant to get the same car I have. I am going to make him drive mine again before he pulls the trigger, and I also have recommended and want him to drive an NA2 NSX, as you suggested.

A Zanardi or other 3.2/6MT Coupe (of the approx. six that exist in the US, although the white 2001 was recently for sale) would be a great choice, but very hard to find. Most of the Zanardis for sale at any given time are either highly modded or known to have problems. www.nsxprime.com keeps pretty good tabs on the NSX and Zanardi market.

I think most people would be surprised how well the NSX performs. The current Japanese NSX Type-R just did the Nurburgring in 7min 56 seconds, which puts it equal or superior to a 911 GT3 and E46 M3 GTR. That car runs a 4.5 0-60 and 12.6 quarter mile bone stock, and is really not much different than a Zanardi (equivalent to a JDM NSX Type S or Type S-Zero, IIRC). People tend to think of the NSX as having a 2004 price with 1991 performance, at best. Even then they don't understand how fast the early NA1 NSX is on the track or at highway speeds.

My NA1 NSX has more than held its own (read dominated) against E46 M3s, E39 M5s, 996 911s, 03 Cobras (SC) etc. at the driving schools I have participated in (although that is so driver dependent I offer it only as anecdote, not 'proof' of superiority).

This isn't a question that can be answered on the internet b/c it quickly devolves into :babyd

If he continues to drive the cars in question the answer will come to him.

M3 is the clear winner if you are a driver. If he really wants a Porsche. Get a GT3. Get a used one with a few thousand miles and you have a rocket that is a great track car. I hate to say it , better than the M3 and I own one. Of course he could get a very low mileage 355 for that dough and that is also a great car. The porsche has just become too civilized. Booring to drive. I test drove a 996TT cabrio and it was boring. Fats but boring. It has become a speed appliance, if you know what i mean. There aree only 3 good porsches left for a true driver. GT2(animal), GT3, Carrera GT.

What a bunch of BS man. Have you ever driven a 996 Turbo X50 with the PSM turned off?? If you have, then you would recognize that it is also very much a Porsche driver's car too. The GT2 is rediculous... too much power for a rear engine, rear drive car.

As far as M3 vs C4S, how can you compare the M3cic to a C4S Coupe? If you are comparing apples to apples then you have to compare coupe to coupe. Being someone who owns an E46 M3, and regularly drives an '03 C4S I would rather have the M3 for canyon roads, track days, etc. The M3 has raw power, the excitement of rwd and redlining at 8000+ rpms, and a much more accurate manual gear box. Also the M3 has the SMG option if you are into that.

The C4S costs a lot more and is not quite as fast as the M3. It is AWD and you cannot drift it as easily as the M3 either (i am a big fan of being sideways). Another downfall of the C4S is the brake pedal feel and the sport seats (not comfortable for someone over 6 ft tall). However, if you are buying the car for big pimpin' purposes then the winner is clearly the Porsche. The C4S is definately a better looking vehicle by all means, and definately gets more attention from the ladies. However, another downside of the Porsche is the issue of having no trunk space or usable rear seats.

Performance: M3

Big Pimpin': C4S

As far as M3 vs C4S, how can you compare the M3cic to a C4S Coupe? If you are comparing apples to apples then you have to compare coupe to coupe.

I can compare anything to anything else. There is no rule. Some comparisons may be better than others, I do not disagree.

We drove an M3 cab because that is what they had. I did not post this to debate M3 cab versus C4S coupe, but rather C4S versus M3. Both are available in coupe and convertible form. I guess I should have been more clear about that point.

If he buys an M3 SMG, it will most likely be a coupe, but he has yet to drive one (and plans to do so in the near future).

Hey I owned a 95 e36 3.0L M3. I also had a 98 3.2L M Roadster, both US cars and not as close as the Euro 286 hp (3.0L) and 321 hp (3.2L) M3s to the 993 (282 hp) and the 996 (3.4L 300hp and 2002 3.6L 320hp). Now with the M3 E46 becoming available to the whole world with its mighty magical over 102 hp/liter output across all markets, with 6spd or SMGII, M has got the 911's undivided attention.

They immediately pushed the 996 2001 model to 3.6L and made it available in Germany over the summer and in the US surprisingly as early as September 2001. Porsche is definitely threatened by the new E46 M3 in both racing and reflecting on the street market versions. I went through that comparison for so long since I got the 95 M3, knowing the US had the weaker version, again comparing the 993 or all new 996 back in 1998 to the 98 US M Roadster, and finally comparing the new E46 with the 2002 996 3.6L.

I raced my M3 E46 against a brand new 996 '02 and then raced in the 996 up against my M3. They are very close in performance especially around the city, where the new 996 peaks at 320 hp at 6800 RPM and dies shortly after at 7300 RPM, the M3 is producing about 315 hp at 6800 RPM and pushes hard declaring its 333 Hp at 7900 RPM and see its limited redline at 8100 RPM on the first 4 gears, with 7800 RPM redline at 5th and 6500 RPM redline on 6th.

So u look at the 996 next to you and you have no problem getting in front of it as long as you can beat the Porsche in traction. The rear weight of the 996 helps it in launching but with correct precise fast launch and shifting the M3 should win the battle since you can keep going in each gear.

Now on the highway its different, the 996's more efficient aerodynamics and better torque delivery (flatter torque curve available from lower revs to overcome inertia faster in a package that weighs 115 kg lighter or 255 lbs lighter) starts showing its rear to the M3 being ahead by about 0.2 seconds up to 88 MPH. then the gap starts increasing as the 996 pushes through the increasing wind speed faster then the M3 by about another 0.5 seconds in the next 12MPH up to 100 MPH. By 125 MPH the 996 3.6L is ahead of the new M3 by 1.4 seconds. However this is all assuming that the lanes are nice big wide stretches with no obstructions requiring no maneuvers.

When traffic starts hitting up as is the case generally in LA the M3 shows off its 4 exhausts to the 996 having the edge of about 3 to 5 MPH faster through the slalom and allowing it shoot and squeeze in and out faster and smoother with less gear changes.


Then there’s the question how old are you (911 demands and receives more respect, the M3 likes to shock you with its capabilities and then demand its respect), is this your primary car, are you taking rear passengers on board more than you’d like then you need the M3, are you using your sports car for a nice long drive to your vacation spot, how much luggage can you cope with. Listen they both drive like a dream, they both are highly respected sport cars capturing DIFFERENT AUDIENCES, a fully loaded M3 at $55,000 can physically do all what the new 996 can (and kick the 3.4L’s [censored]) but won’t present you with the immediate attention and respect as the $25,000 more 996 3.6L.

Your choice, your bank account, remember if u get the 911, you’ll love it so much that you’ll try to be in a 911 turbo or GT3 or GT2 relatively soon…you can’t go wrong. If u get the M3, you’ll love it so much it will always deliver your requests and more, accommodating for all needs, and disgracing many top end sports cars, looking smart and discreet, might end you up in the next M6 or M1.

With the exception of alan, dont let people sway you from the 996 line because its 'soft' or because the GT3, GT2 and CGT are the only 'real' Porsches... most of the individuals stating this have never driven any of them, let alone able to afford them.

The M3/996 C2 debate has been covered before and both marques have their diehard loyal customers, both are great cars, and both are totally different.

Having driven both extensively, as well as being both a loyal BMW and Porsche owner this is how I would chalk the two cars up.

BMW M3: The ultimate compromise. Need four seets? You got em. Cant have the boss thinking hes paying you too much? Perfect. Oh, and you wanna have some fun too? No problem. The E46 M3, as Im sure most of the owners here will attest to, is an awesome GT car. Straight line performance is very impressive, grip is high, predictability is probably the quality it has over all other cars, and you can do it all with 3 people watching in comfort.

Porsche C2: Weather its a 3.4L (296BHP/300BHP), or a 3.6L (320BHP), its Porsches version of a compromise, but lets be honest, what that basically means in "P-car speak" is that the A/C works. The 996 is the 'best' 911 in all aspects on paper as well as in the real world. Its the fastest, most comfortable, and thus far, doesnt seem to be developing any problems as some of the cars approach 100,000 miles. What many will tell you is that the 996 is too soft, or that it 'has no soul.' They are partially right, as in in effort to compromise, Porsche had to take some of the '911' out of the 996. Mushy seats, light clutches, and Nav arent exactly features Porsche has been known for. That said, its still a Porsche. Perhaps less of a sports car and more of a GT car than the 993 it replaced, but it is also more of a sports car and less of a GT car than the E46 M3 for the purposes of this comparison.

If I were looking for a single car that could pull double duty during the week and on weekends, I would choose the M3. If I were looking for a second car for fun/track purposes, I would choose the 996 of any variety hands down.

The 996 buy in is higher, mod prices are higher, and maint costs are higher - but there is a reason; The cars made the badge, not the other way around, and their trademark slogan is accurate.

Good luck.