Not sure if anyone noticed yet, but went to Osh's website, RMS, and it looks like he is selling Stage 1 S/C kits for around $3846 instead of $5500. The sale goes from March 19-March 29th.
If anyone is interested.

whats OSh's website.

www.racemarque.com

well thats not much of a sale for 325's. the regular price is $5495 and marked out to $5526. if you look at those prices, the sale price is more expensive. how crapy is that.

I bet that's a typo.

$3846 for a stage 1 M3 kit is a damn good price. Wonder how much stage 2 is...

I was wondering the same myself...that Aftercooler really makes a difference...

Charlie.

I will shoot Osh an e-mail right now and ask him, I got a feeling the aftercooler is not on sale. He told me he is trying to move some EXCESS stock. I think he makes the aftercoolers on an"as needed" basis, so they probaly will not apply, but I will find out and post it as soon as he answers me back.

I think they would do well to market their air/water aftercoolers as a stand-alone item. They could then expand their sales base to people that have other brands of FI.

Excess stock? As in, they have the kits complete and can ship the instant they receive payment?

Josh, I believe that to be true. Also the aftercooler sale I posted makes a complete Stage 2 come to about $5800, which is like buy the Stage 1 get the Stage 2 for free!! The aftercoolers he needs until 10 days after March 29 to ship the first ones, if any volume is ordered.

What if I just buy one for me, outside of a group buy? Does he have those complete and ready to ship?

I will find out a lead time for a complete Stage 2 for you.I still will help you install it, Josh.

Cool... :cool:

Osh just e-mailed me a minute ago about something else and I asked him a few questions about a kit for you.Waiting for a reply.

Also, the Stage 2 portion of his kit is now on sale thru March 29 th for $1995
also. So the Stage 1 and 2 combined is only around $5800. I paid $9000 for that stuff when I bought mine!!
I was told 10 days lead time for shipping also.

kinda OT but, How much do those kits usually cost to install?

I would say 12 hours for a Stage 1 and if you did the Stage 2 separately probaly another 12 hours. If you did them both at the same time may save a few hours.That is how long it takes me, someone else may take more or less time. I am pretty familiar with them and do not even need to look at the directions and that is how long it takes me.

What exactly does the stage 2 kit consisit of and can it be added to non-RMS Vortech SC kit?

The Aftercooler is the main thing we pay for. Many threads have discussed the current Vortech based S/Cs like Dinan, ERT, RMS, ESS, etc... and the fact is nobody has really made a bulletproof Aftercooler then RMS. The price is the only thing most people have an issue with. RMS's hardware has always been well made. Most people that have problems with RMS are customer service (not osh) or software/tuning/programming.

So considering many people are selling used RMS Stage 2+ kits from $3-4k...

you can see why they fall in value so quick...

However, a well thoughtout kit, with proper tuning (for example stage 3 comes with no software) is an amazing peice of hardware...

Do you think RMS would have a sale on their new dual core aftercooler for the E36 platform?

-Dave

Do you think RMS would have a sale on their new dual core aftercooler for the E36 platform?

-Dave

If you want, I can ask Osh about it.
As far as I know, dual core aftercooler for E36 never became an "official" product, but rather a specialized product for specific customer needs.

I don't think you will need it for performance reasons since you already have an aftercooler that is good for your hp rating. :)

I was wonder if there are any additional special hardware requirements for a stageII add on to a dinan supercharged system. Also would the price be the same?

True.. I think the aftercooler I have now is fine for my application... however, the new dual core aftercooler, besides being "cooler" in terms of looks.... also will allow me to reinstall my ASC unit...

When I had it installed, I lived in CA.. but in NY.... ASC can be a good thing..

:)

If you want, I can ask Osh about it.
As far as I know, dual core aftercooler for E36 never became an "official" product, but rather a specialized product for specific customer needs.

I don't think you will need it for performance reasons since you already have an aftercooler that is good for your hp rating. :)

True.. I think the aftercooler I have now is fine for my application... however, the new dual core aftercooler, besides being "cooler" in terms of looks.... also will allow me to reinstall my ASC unit...

When I had it installed, I lived in CA.. but in NY.... ASC can be a good thing..

:)

Ah...forgot about ASC.
Since I didn't lose DSC, didn't think of that.
Shoot Osh an email and see how much, I am sure he will give you a fair price.

Do you think RMS would have a sale on their new dual core aftercooler for the E36 platform?

-Dave

Call James Clay at Bimmerworld, he may still have mine for sell as they are putting a turbo on the engine.

I decided I couldn't let a good deal pass...so I decided to buy the stage I kit. I just talked to Osh. He answered all my questions before I bought the kit and seemed like a good guy to deal with.

I'm looking forward to a smooth introduction into the world of FI Bimmers. :D

If you want my $0.02 as an RMS owner I HIGHLY recommend you send your ECU to Nick at Technique Tuning and have him retune for you. I personally had a lot of problems with the stock RMS tuning. My car was detonating very badly and just didn't run right. The quality of the kit itself is excellent but the tuning just isn't great. Again just my $0.02.

The RMS tuning story is getting real old.
If I am not mistaken Mark, didn't you buy your car with the RMS Supercharger already on it? It got stuck when you tried to get to your house after purchase? Do you know the history of the tuning and any additional tuning that may have been performed on the car before you bought it, or electrical problems that could have occurred with dead batteries or voltage spikes or anything that may have nothing to do with the tuning whatsoever?
And didn't you have fuel injector issues also? My point is , it is VERY EASY to just point the finger at Osh. I do not think that is fair, especially when you just bought the car and the kit was already on there? Correct me if I have your car mixed up with another.

That is indeed my car. The car after being delivered to the trucking service wouldn't start. That was due to the chip popping out of the RMS installed clamshell.

The car blew it's headgasket AFTER being tuned by Osh on the dyno live. The shop that did the work said that there was evidence of detonation in several cylinders. When I sent the ECU out to have it remapped it was found to have large amounts of timing advance. Much more than a FI car should have.

Upon getting the ECU back the car has run perfect with no signs of detonation. The injectors caused a CEL light but I have replaced the injectors and the CEL light is gone (only came on once Nick now it seems to have disappeared for good).

My point is that you can't take a chance on shoddy programming. If it's wrong boom...your motor is done. There have been several people here with problems of Osh's programming. It might not be a lack of knowledge but more a lack of conservatism but either way...Just giving my recommendation.

>>The car blew it's headgasket AFTER being tuned by Osh on the dyno live<<

Mark, that is indeed scary!!!!!!! I mean, if after live dyno tuning, this is the result, then what hope is there!!!


>>there was evidence of detonation in several cylinders. When I sent the ECU out to have it remapped it was found to have large amounts of timing advance. Much more than a FI car should have.<<

Ouch. A tuner should get you the most power possible for the given application and useage type, but, the first rule of tuning is ' thou shalt do no harm...'.

Guys, why take chances like this when there is a solution.. give your car's ecu over to Nick... Im not kidding.... You sure as hell wont be faced with anything like this horror story. The afr hes delivered is a thing of beauty. And, done long distance, getting an afr curve as good as this one is no trivial matter..

That is exactly my great debate: custom tuning by Nick or standard software from Osh.

Osh has assured me that his software is bulletproof. And all I would have to do is send him the ECU by mail and the price is included in the kit.

Nick can do the custom tuning and lives only 2 hours away. But I would have to give him the whole car for a couple of days and some money. Not a big problem, just the inconvienence of getting the car down there.

Will the car even run well enough with everything installed without software to drive it down there for tuning or would I have to trailer it?

So there is my problem... I'm open to more suggestions and options.

Get Osh's tuning and run your car for a few hundred miles. Then go get a dyno including AFR's. If it looks good, you are done. If it needs adjusting,which it may, have Osh reburn a new chip with the changes needed. That will all be included in Osh's price. Why pay someone else unless you have to? If after a few free retrys(whch is entirely possible from any tuner), if you are still not happy, then have Nick G try.

Trust me when I tell you, people have had issues in the past with Osh's tuning and MANY have not. Unfortunately on this forum , you will only hear from those who are unhappy with his programming. I am one of the few who has the sack to stand up and say ,I have had no problems with his programming. Look at my numbers below and tell me his tuning is not good.

I think you will be happy with the outcome. RMS cars make MORE power than comparably setup cars. That is a fact.Again my .02 cents.

>>Osh has assured me that his software is bulletproof. <<

But, then, how do we account for Radelow's case? Or many others like it, as users here have recounted many times. I like osh, and would want to give him the benefit of the doubt. But cases like Radelow just scare the shit out of me.

>>...custom tuning by Nick or standard software from Osh.<<

Living so close to Nick, your choice is really a nobrainer. Youre in an envious position, having the master so close at hand. It would be crazy, in my book, to pass up this opportunity. But youre really comparing apples and oranges, for one main reason; In the rms case, youre talking about installing 'kit' software... in Nick's case, since you refer to custom tuning, I think you mean dyno tuning of your car. With the same tuner, dyno tuning of your car I think, would almost always get you the best result, since tweaks can be dynotested in real time for a single vehicle, whereas kit software is based on a single, or even multiple testbeds, but not necessarily Your car.

>>That is exactly my great debate: custom tuning by Nick or standard software from Osh.<<

So, where's the beef??! How is this a tough decision?

>>Will the car even run well enough with everything installed without software to drive it down there for tuning or would I have to trailer it?<<

Just talk to him. He'll work something out youll be happy with. Ive found Nick to be unusually honest and straight forward.. No bs with him... He'll tell you like it is every time.. You can be assured youre getting the straight story when you work with Nick :)

If I were you, I would get a good wide band o2 right away. Regardless of who you go with, you should have one for the sake of your car's safety.

And then, I would send my ECU to Osh (RMS) and get it programmed since it IS included in the package. You will need to make sure to set a definite time line to get your ECU back. Regardless of positive & negative input about RMS, no one is going to argue that you may not get your part in time if precautions are not made. This precaution applies to most other tuners as well since things most likely do not happen on time.

When you get your ECU back, test drive it and monitor your AF. If you happen to have wind band o2 with data logger, you should be able to see what the car is doing in detail under different conditions.

If you do not like what you see, make your decision then.
This way, you *could* save money and still get your car running good. Even if you end up going the other route, you still did not lose much except some downtime.

Just my 2 cents...

Trust me when I tell you, people have had issues in the past with Osh's tuning and MANY have not. Unfortunately on this forum , you will only hear from those who are unhappy with his programming. I am one of the few who has the sack to stand up and say ,I have had no problems with his programming. Look at my numbers below and tell me his tuning is not good..

But Marco, I remember something about you and custom tuning with Nick....don't I? :dunno Why not leave well enough alone, if it was so great?

Caving in to the peer pressure, I sent my computer to Nick G , to have him inspect my tuning. He thought that my tuning looked very good from Osh. The only thing I had Nick G do was lean the bottom end (2000-3500 RPM), which I am not even certain was attained, because I have not redynoed it.
The point is , I believe that Nick G was even satisfied with the tuning from Osh.I also believe my numbers speak for themself.

Caving in to the peer pressure, I sent my computer to Nick G , to have him inspect my tuning. He thought that my tuning looked very good from Osh. The only thing I had Nick G do was lean the bottom end (2000-3500 RPM), which I am not even certain was attained, because I have not redynoed it.
The point is , I believe that Nick G was even satisfied with the tuning from Osh.I also believe my numbers speak for themself.

Hey man, I wasn't being argumentative, no need to get defensive... I'm well aware that your numbers speak for themselves.

I was just asking... ;)

Well, then, this does seem to be the Big mystery.... Everybody knows that on occasion, some rms cars Do seem to produce a decent afr result, and timing such that it doesnt blow up the engine. Some of these cars, I happen to know, had to have several attempts at the ecu done before it was 'right', but as has been said, thats not that unusual.. IT is a little unusual, though, on a Kit ecu, ie, one thats supposedly tuned for the market... Dinan ecus dont come 'incorrect' and need several attempts. And neither do most AA ecus. The point of a kit ecu is to have one which is tuned to work with east coast as well as west coast gas, and across the board conditions. Im not talking about motivated owners who want more power out of their 'kit' ecus; Im talking bout owners who had to have their 'kit' ecus redone simply because they were out of whack which most of them would note after a dyno pull, for instance. Thats very different from an owner who enters into an arrangement such that, at the top, software would be done for that car only. Of course, in those situations, multiple ecus will be done; but thats because a finer state of tune, relative to the car and the conditions it will be driven in, is desired. Thats one of the reasons, of course, that some owners choose to have a custom ecu done, instead of buying a kit ecu.

Anyway, Im sure Im far from the only guy here who has a real problem reconciling the wide mix of results from rms tuning. Clearly he knows how to do it... That there are so many vocal owners with results which vary so widely is a big mystery to most of us.

I wasn't being argumentative or defensive. ;) Just speaking fact, Chris. I thought I would even get mine checked, just to be safe and I find out the programming already looked pretty dang good. I was happy, because my car runs like the programming is pretty dang good!
It is all good, :)

Incidently, today for the first time today, I learned how to use the smiley faces. Now maybe my tone and words will not get confused anymore!!! :mad:

I think you will be happy with the outcome. RMS cars make MORE power than comparably setup cars. That is a fact.Again my .02 cents.

Two questions pop to mind:

1) Is this a FACT or is it your .02 cents?
2) Who else actually knows how to tune and has tuned two 'comprable' cars. I don't see why RMS is any special in getting you more power than the next person. Also, if RMS can get you more power than ANY other tuner, then there must be sacrafice/compromise in longevity, emissions, etc.

Just my .02 cents :)

Boris

Boris, show me more than a FEW cars that you know of that make even 360RWHP with 10 lb boost. I cannot think of many. That has to be a tribute to either "aftercoolers" or RMS tuning or both.
Just something to consider ;)

That is my 2 cents. :)

The RMS tuning story is getting real old.


Actually, the RMS tuning story will remain fresh due to the many people who have spent countless dollars trusting RMS to correctly tune their vehicle. We will continue to warn newbies of tuning concerns until RMS has a proven trackrecord of satisfied customers.


The car blew it's headgasket AFTER being tuned by Osh...

I had the same problem…twice.


Ouch. A tuner should get you the most power possible for the given application and useage type

Very true. See my engine specs and note that after RMS' final tuning the car only made 304whp. After this, I took the car to Sias Tuning (installed a TEC3) and the car made 404whp after the first tune. Now it makes 454whp and runs perfect…no flat spots, good idle, steady power, no detonation.

Boris, show me more than a FEW cars that you know of that make even 360RWHP with 10 lb boost. I cannot think of many. That has to be a tribute to either "aftercoolers" or RMS tuning or both.
Just something to consider ;)

That is my 2 cents. :)

You know, if I keep collecting your pennies I could be a rich man!! ;)

In order to answer your question I'd need to know ALL the mods on every car, who tuned it, under what conditions, where they dyno'd, when, etc.

Anyway... I don't know of any cars that make ANY power, in fact, I don't care about the amount of RWHP any car makes. I was just stating it as a hypothetical. What can one tuner do that another absolutely can't? The answer is NOTHING. This ofcourse assumes both tuners have access to the same tools. This is where tuners differ, ofcourse.

Boris

P.S. I just thought of that one car that made 400rwhp on Evosports Dyno... that was SC'd.

>>I just thought of that one car that made 400rwhp on Evosports Dyno... that was SC'd.<<

Ohhhhhh Yea, Boris.. i forgot about that one... Sure, i have the dyno... 400 whp... And, interestingly, this car started life as a 7 psi Dinan car, and was then sent to RMS car where it was 'stage 2isized'. The owner still wasnt satisfied with the power it was getting, and sent it to another 'tuner' to see what he could do... Before this trip to the other tuner, it couldnt surpass 340 whp at rms, as an rms stage II car, plus it had headers, obd1 manfiold and a couple of other extras to boot..

Boris, Did you know Osh tuned a Z3 1999 to 429 RWHP and 322 RWT on 9 lb/boost? That car has been running strong for 2 years now. There are alot of 400 RWHP cars from the RMS stable. Just alot people do not know about them.Whether others have the capability who tune, or just choose not to tune for power like RMS does, does not matter. At least Osh does it.
Also if you recall the Evosport car had RMS hardware on it. Why is it that all high-powered S/C cars are somehow associated with RMS one way or another? ;)
Also the Evosport car had race gas and no cats. Put the cats back on and 92-93 octane gas in it,And it will probaly be 25-30 HP less.
I certainly do not think Osh is perfect in any stretch of the imagination, but I do think he is one of the brightest minds in the BMW HP community :)

I think ultimate numbers don't really tell the tale. Does the car throw check engine lights? Surge, idle strangely, refuse to hot/cold start, buck etc?

I'd gladly give up some whp to get programming that is basically invisible. Ie, everytime I start the car, it runs exactly like stock, with no drivability issues, just more power.

So that's the rub, does Osh's programming give stock like drivability, or is it merely WOT mapping for ultimate power?

Josh, that is exactly how my car and my friend Greg's car runs, No CEL ever, idles perfectly, part throttle perfect. If you did not know my car was S/C'ed and I drove it normal , it is as docile as stock.

How about this?

Osh is supposed to fly to VA on April 10th weekend.
My car has not been running right for 1 year and 7 months.
No matter how I try to sugar coat it, that is what it is.

I have been extremely nice to Osh and RMS most of time and they acknowledge that as well. So Osh wants to shine through this time and get my car up to spec with all latest parts and proper tuning.

I haven't seen anyone who has been this nice to a tuner after all those times from any forums or anyone that I know. Business is about quality product and *trust*. This is it for me. Soon, you guys will see the outcome of this.

Wish me luck!

Sean, as you know, I have been very aware of your situation with RMS. I, too , feel I have been very gentle on Osh.But I also understand that sometimes customers are the source of their own problems. Not in your case, but sometimes in other cases, I feel that has been true.
The only thing I can say in your case, is you have a S54 and that is probaly more difficult and few and far between in tuning experiences.I wish you luck and hope Osh can fix up your situation.

Again I will say that it might not be a case of Osh not having the ability to tune. I honestly believe that he doesn't set out to destroy peoples cars. That, in the long run, is bad business. I just think their quality control on their tuning is not good enough. Sometimes Osh puts out a great program that makes great power with no problems. Other times the tuning is just ragged. In my case I know these things:

1. The car blew a headgasket with signs of detonation
2. The car was detonating BAD
3. The tuning in the car, done by Osh, had large amounts of advance.
4. Extreme amounts of advance will result in detonation and a blown hg.
5. After Nick G reprogrammed it the car no longer detonates.

Those are the facts and they point to one thing. The tuning. Again maybe Osh was just having a big day.

The problem here is that there is NO ROOM FOR ERROR in programming on FI car. You shouldn't HAVE to check the AFR's to make sure everything is right. The maps are a function of math. Anyway, IMHO I believe Nick's attention to detail is better and I trust him more that RMS tuning. So that's what I am going to recommend to people. When you talk about a $5000 supercharger kit and a $20,000-$30,000 car you should not be worried about the additional $300 to have Nick tune the car. If you are, you shouldn't be buying the supercharger kit.

$300 for custom tuning? Where, sign me up!!! :)

Thanks, Marco

I have to point out that RMS has been improving their quality control over time. This is why we don't hear RMS horror stories as often as before. Matter of fact, I do not remember the last time I read such story for some time meanwhile there were some problems with other tuner’s kits. This is one of the reasons why I stuck around RMS until now, trusting them that they will get better over time. Of course there weren’t other options before, but I am still with RMS when there are other solutions now.

I believe NickG is one of the most competent tuner in the business if not one of the best from what I heard. There shouldn’t be a question about if your car will run right or not with NickG’s tuning. At the same time, there is no need to spend time and money if someone already bought the software as a package of SC kit unless something is wrong with it.

Especially for this case, the owner lives in FL. He can go with AA or NickG anytime he wants. So if I were him, I would get the complete kit from RMS including the software. If something seems to be wrong, he has at least two other options nearby. And he can come back and tell us his experience. If it’s a bad one for RMS, maybe RMS will learn from it and they will try to get even better. If it’s a good one, maybe it could be an indication that RMS is getting better. Regardless, the owner of this car has not much to lose.

I have to point out that RMS has been improving their quality control over time. This is why we don't hear RMS horror stories as often as before.

The situation could also be that so many people heard horror stories that not as many go to Osh for super-duper-custom kits but rather rely on other sources. There are countless people who go to others' for tuning RMS products.

Even as this thread progresses, the message is quite clear: RMS has the prettiest hardware, but expect to spend more money for tuning.

Hell, if I had to pick a Centrifugal blower today, it would most definitely be RMS minus the tuning. Anything else is just a "Stage HALF (0.5)" as it doesn't include an intercooler.

Boris

The situation could also be that so many people heard horror stories that not as many go to Osh for super-duper-custom kits but rather rely on other sources. There are countless people who go to others' for tuning RMS products.

Boris

It just may be, no argument here.
I understand that some other tuners even have base maps for RMS cars in case like this.

The SC kit for S54 is in production (according to RMS) so everything should be ready, so I will soon find out Osh's tuning capability in person soon.

Who & where are they doing the $300 tune?
Have RMS with water inject @ 10PSI on 00 M roadster

Garys :dunno

I think the $300 custom tuning that Mark is referring to, when opting out of RMS's programming happens in a place called "Fantasyland". ;)

The $300 was just thrown out there as an example. It doesn't really exist.

But Nick do do a group ecu deal and Im sure he can swing that deal dont have to ok it with the boss right boss :D

Nick map one properly and then mass produce that file to the customers sure the cost is lower work once to map it correctly. :)

Problem is, it takes a lot of TIME and EFFORT to map one car out PROPERLY. Then, there's no guarantee of customers to purchase it later.

Although there is a big benefit to being the 'first' customer of a map/program.......you have the knowledge and satisfaction that your car was completely custom tuned and you have a hard copy or the results (dyno printout). Saves time and money down the road.

Mr Nick, nothing intended toward you ;) . I like that I know how to use the smily faces now!!!
I just was trying to point that custom tuning costs substantially more than $300. The comparison was made that why use the programming that comes with the kit, when you can get (your tuning, as mentioned) for $300. I just thought members would read that and think custom tuning is that economical when it is not, because we all know it can be a lot of work and alot of trial and error.. I thought at the very least, Osh's programming could be used as a BASELINE for future tuning.And of course, using your services would indeed be a option. And a good one. ;)

Nick but the stage one is it not a basic sc kit just like a dinan and is not boost boost ??

You have done vortech setup before working on any :) :D

Nick but the stage one is it not a basic sc kit just like a dinan and is not boost boost ??


Nooooo, definately not......boost is not boost. You have to take things into account like exhaust restriction (which affects volumetric efficiency), intake temps, injector size (and linearity), blah, blah, blah.

Nick I see your point.

What I was thinking if Dinan and other can then Im sure you can make a general improvement over the standard RMS software if you find that there is room for improvements over his current stock setup.

You need me to help you with some marketing idea. :D You know basic RMS update take it or leave it(optimised a/f flatter maybe a little timing here and there or less, then maybe Stage 2 free flow exhaust, Stage 3 free flow and aftercooler.

Nick money is out there for you to make. :) Nick easy up you dont have to make it perfect as you would like, we know you take your tuning seriously, just make it better and most will be happy.

Perfection will make you gray too fast. :)