I have a question about the desired alignment, I have a 99 Mcoupe and ACS sport suspension. I run a good bit of track events and also use the car as my street car. I have R comps for the track and 18" bbs Ch's for street. I also have the Turner camber spacers in the front. Should I be running 0 toe? also what else that is adjustable? thanks alot.

Jeff

What's your camber in front? If it's close to stock, you can stay with factory toe setting. But, if you have additional negative camber, you may want to move closer to zero toe.

Having said that, I have no experience with M Coupes. I only assume the suspension "rules" would apply as they do with M3s.

Jay

I'm running closer to neg. 3 degrees so im thinkn running 0 toe. is this the way you guys seem to do this?

thanks alot.

jeff

If you are just doing driver schools, I would run zero toe to get the most out of your street tires. If you are racing, you might consider adding some toe-out to improve turn-in. Most people run 0.14 to 0.29 degrees of toe-out (1/16 to 1/8 inches).

Bob

I run -3.5 front and -2.5 rear in my 97 M3 at the track. I have front and rear toe set to about -.07" (in) or so, about a 32nd of an inch. I did this as i street the car all the time and still wanted a bit of tow in as with the 0 toe, the car wanders too much to like for an extended period of time! LOL.

But yes, as 1BADM3 said, you with those specs for tracking only. Toe out on the street willl eat them tires quick!

so is zero toe better handling wise than toe in? does toe in just make the car more tracktable? and toe out provides better turn in? am I getting this correct? so zero toe is optimal if this is my street/track setup? thanks alot.

jeff

Well, are you just tracking the car for fun? Or are you competing?

Toe out will help your turn in, but it aint gonna make a DRASTIC difference...we aint talking VW bettle to Ferrair F40 differences here.

I actually, would recommend you go for a little toe in. That way, it will handle great on the street, wont wander and trameline all over the place on every little bump and wiggle in the pavement. You will also get good track performance.

If you go with 0 toe, it will tramline, etc. Toe out will get you a bit better turn in but lots of wear.

Thats my $.02. Like I said, I run a bit of "in" and I am running Advanced group and doing just fine with those settings......Tim

I'd like to see a show of hands of how many track guys (not auto-x) actually run toe-out in front. I'm not talking PTG cars here.

Jay

I'm not gonna say I haven't tried it.

I got a bit of toe-out up front and just about killed my S-03's on the street. The car is very jumpy aover the road imperfections. I run about -1.5 camber up front.

Good for fun runs over the mountain roads and track, but I'm switching back to stock settings for the street with the next set of rubber.

Originally posted by mcoupejeff
so is zero toe better handling wise than toe in? does toe in just make the car more tracktable? and toe out provides better turn in? am I getting this correct? so zero toe is optimal if this is my street/track setup? thanks alot.

jeff
Try zero-toe and see what you think. It will definitely be the friendliest on tires. I race my car, drive on the street, and run -3.5 degrees camber with 0.1 degrees toe-out. It is fine. I don’t believe toe out is any worse on tire wear than compared to the same amount of toe-in.

Toe-in is a stable condition. Stability and maneuverability are opposites; therefore toe-out to a point produces better turning performance. Toe-out also produces less tire scrub during a turn because the outside tire is making a bigger radius than the inside tire. But this is only optimal at one particular turning radius. Every racer I know runs toe-out. I would be highly surprised to find any BMW racer that runs front toe-in.

Bob

I run almost identical alignment settings to Tim/ArcticFox and find it to be a perfect compromise for a street car that's also used for autocross and track schools. I'm also in Advanced Group for track schools. Although zero toe is minimally better for tire wear and turn-in response (remember I're comparing to a few hundredths of degrees toe-in here), it's way too annoying dealing with the resulting tramlining from zero toe if you drive on the street much. To me, this disadvantage alone far outweighs the minisule benefits IF you're car is also street driven.

To me (and apparently Tim/ArcticFox, too), the better way to improve turning response of a double duty (street/track) E36 is to run very little toe-in in the rear - this greatly improves rotation and also helps w/tire wear. My biggest fear with running such low toe-in in the rear was increasing the car's tendency to spin. I've been pleasantly surprised to find that mine still essentially refuses to spin no matter what the conditions on track.

thanks for all the great info guys. I'm leaning towards 0 toe up front, and since the rear end of the mcoupe is basically not adjustable, ill just stick with stock there. why is the 0 toe harder to live with on the street? i don't get the tramlining and such??? thanks again guys.

jeff

Originally posted by quik96M3
To me (and apparently Tim/ArcticFox, too), the better way to improve turning response of a double duty (street/track) E36 is to run very little toe-in in the rear - this greatly improves rotation and also helps w/tire wear. My biggest fear with running such low toe-in in the rear was increasing the car's tendency to spin. I've been pleasantly surprised to find that mine still essentially refuses to spin no matter what the conditions on track.
For track driving I would not recommend running so little rear toe-in. Making radical changes to the rear alignment in order to solve a front of the car problem (not turning) doesn’t make sense. As you mentioned, the spin tendency is increased and the car is probably very hard to drive in the rain and doesn’t like trail brake very much. The other advantage of rear toe-in is it allows early power application in a turn, which is probably the most important aspect.

I find it funny that all of the other racers have gone quiet on this thread. Many believe their alignment settings are some super secret. All the folks I know run at least 1/16 inch (0.14 degrees) of rear toe-in, usually 1/8 inch (0.29 degrees), and some as high as ¼ inch (0.57 degrees).

Bob

Bob-

I'm not a "racer", but I track my car (DEs) and take suspension tuning seriously. I've learned as much as I could and experiment looking for the best performance.

I run zero toe in front with approx -3 camber. As far as rear toe, I run .1 toe-in per side with -2 camber.

In the 3 years I've been following this type of info on these forums and Roadfly, I've rarely ever heard of anyone who runs toe-out in front on the track. Not saying it isn't done. Just that those who's opinions I've learned to respect don't seem to be doing it. Unless, of course, they're spewing dis-information ;-)

You may be a race car driver with more experience than any of us. I don't know.

Most of these topics have been beat to death. Unfortunately, I think a lot of the true track rats lost interest. Maybe because of the non-pertinent threads and comments. Maybe because of bickering. It's too bad that those with valuable knowledge choose not to participate.

So, lets hope you stick around and are one of the good guys.

Jay

luni2nz,
thanks alot, i agree with you, i know theres tons of racers in here, wish more would chime in. I'm pretty serious about my track events and just want everyones opinion to get the best set up I can and not ruin tires on the street. I dont mind if its a little "darty" I just want it to not destroy tires and handle as good as possilbe. thanks again to all those contributing.

Jeff

I have run zero front toe on every car I've owned, and they've all been driven on the street, autocrossed, and occasionally tracked. If the front toe is truly zero and you aren't running ridiculously wide tires in front the car will not tramline, at least not in my experience. Besides, if you're running anything more than stock negative camber in the front you will NEED to run zero toe to curb the tire wear problem.

I don't see the need to go to zero toe in the rear for the reasons mentioned above. The only reason I would decrease it is to try to improve tire life on the street.

John V

I have tried to run some toe out and didn't notic any difference in most turns, ate a set if SO's in 3000 miles. Switched back to zero toe and 3.5 neg camber for the track and have excellent turn in. And my street tires have already gone 5000 miles and aren;t half done! thats a record for me.

Zero in the front will be good, that's all I'm saying :awink: