Anyone knows of a local shop where I can buy stone guard and have it installed? TIA

Juan

Rob Freeman at Maryland Performance Works did an excellent job on my car. He can be reached at <mdperfworks@verizon.net>, 410-750-8370. He's a real nice guy and has also supported the National Capital Chapter activities.

Neil

Thank you very much Neil. I'll call him tomorrow and tell him you sent me.

\
Juan

FWIW, Rob put a bunch of cuts into the paint on my 02 Imola Red M3. I was more than a little disappointed. On my 03, I did it myself because I can do a better job IMO. Bought the film and did a full wrap of the front bumper, and half way up the hood, etc.

Also, I don't think Rob sells the Stongard brand. He does X-pel, which has less coverage. (That info is about 2 years old though.)

See if John Helm is still doing installs. 804.241.7225

Cheers,
Ken

If you want great customer service with someone who really knows what they're talking about, talk to Raja at EuroAutoConcepts. He can be reached at 703.736.9498

Tell him Sean sent you! :D

My apologies. I guess I should have been more specific. I'm looking to install stone guard to my head lights, the paint job will be next. Do you still recommend the same people? Thanks guys.


Juan

Originally posted by dave is cool
If you want great customer service with someone who really knows what they're talking about, talk to Raja at EuroAutoConcepts. He can be reached at 703.736.9498

Tell him Sean sent you! :D
I've heard Raja is very good too!! I will have him do for my car sometimes in spring/summer too!! ;)

So is Raja preferred now over that Roadblock guy in VA? Which one should we goto?

Damn Juan ... to bad you didn't mention the stonguard earlier, I gave the headlights, foglights, and front bra away when I sold the car. I didn't want anything -- just gave the new owner everything I had. I would have given it to you ...

Originally posted by kenkamm
FWIW, Rob put a bunch of cuts into the paint on my 02 Imola Red M3. I was more than a little disappointed. On my 03, I did it myself because I can do a better job IMO. Bought the film and did a full wrap of the front bumper, and half way up the hood, etc.

Also, I don't think Rob sells the Stongard brand. He does X-pel, which has less coverage. (That info is about 2 years old though.)

See if John Helm is still doing installs. 804.241.7225

Cheers,
Ken

Ken's the best installer I know, and one of the most detail oriented people I know. Depending how detail oriented you are, you might not even notice little cuts or the like.

You can do the StonGard for your headlights yourself.. that is easy.

I've still got connections to StonGard... if you want the complete headlight/foglight set, just let me know :)

i need stonegaurd:)

Hey eric- did your sisters car need the nutserts on her 95? I'm installing the x-brace tonight:)

Originally posted by magnetic1
You can do the StonGard for your headlights yourself.. that is easy.

I've still got connections to StonGard... if you want the complete headlight/foglight set, just let me know :)

Hey, I might be interested in Stongard for the headlights.

Greeg/Dave , PM me about StonGard.

Greek... I dunno.. we just took that XBrace straight off ... :/

Thanks guys. I'm going to get the headlights done by PFT. When I re-spray the car, I'll check with Raja or Ken :)


James, sorry you had to sell the M3. Good luck with your new purchase and the new house.

Originally posted by Juan ///M325
Thanks guys. I'm going to get the headlights done by PFT. When I re-spray the car, I'll check with Raja or Ken :)


James, sorry you had to sell the M3. Good luck with your new purchase and the new house.

Good choice Juan!

Everyone knows you need paint protection when you drive a RACING CAR!

http://www.pro-imports.com/albums/album08/xpel.jpg

X-Pel provided by http://www.PFTFilms.com! <shameless plug>

pft films here too and they warranty it. Skip is a great guy and takes his work very seriously. Try contacting him.

Originally posted by Pro-Imports
...RACING CAR!

:eek:

Originally posted by kenkamm
FWIW, Rob put a bunch of cuts into the paint on my 02 Imola Red M3. I was more than a little disappointed. On my 03, I did it myself because I can do a better job IMO. Bought the film and did a full wrap of the front bumper, and half way up the hood, etc.



Well Ken,
I let this go for over a year, when a friend saw you talking poorly of me in another forum. You seem to have ommitted quite a few facts of our transaction.
1. You couldnt afford to have the kit installed, your whole point of purchasing was to try to self install. (I'll address that more in a moment)
2. I told you from the begining I dont install Stongard kits or wrap edges. I dont believe in them, thats just me.
3. You said no problem, I told you I would trim the kit as you were leaving for vacation w/ your g/f.
4. You also left out that you wanted your Hood done as well, but couldnt afford it and you were driving on vacation. Out of the kindness of my heart, I did your hood, fenders and mirrors for only 400 dollars and allowed you to pay me 200 dollars a month for the next 2 months!!! You even asked me to hold the original check for a few days! Keep in mind I did this with no interest or written contract with you, just being a good guy. I guess this is my thanks for kindness?
In my 8 years of installing clearbras and over 10,000 installs, I have heard one complaint...YOU, and that has come to me second hand. I assure you I stand behind my installs and products as Neil, Dado, David@ Pro-Imports and Skip @ PFT films will verify. They all use my products and I actually sponser David and Dado's cars, along with Team Lexus and ALL the Porsches at Turbo Performance Ctr. in Jessup. I am actually 1 of 30 certified distributors of the PPF in the country.
You have a responsibility as a consumer that if your "a little less than pleased" to notify me, you didnt. Instead you chose to hide behind the written word and whine. How am I supposed to answer a concern if you dont let me know? I have never claimed to be perfect, I still dont. But I back up EVERYTHING i do with my word, and I have a thriving business because of that word. You never allowed me the chance to address this at all.
Now about your install on your new car, I have seen many installers with years of practice curse and throw tools at an M3 install, ESPECIALLY with wrapped edges. But you're better? I'll make you an offer Ken, If you can show me DEFINATIVE PROOF that you did the install on your new M3 (ie; pictures,video) and that that install is textbook perfect. I will refund you every bit of the cost of your red M3, and will name you as installer of the year on my website! Frankly, if you can install better than me on that car with no experience, you are surely in the wrong line of work. I handle my duties as a responsible honest business man, you should have handled yours as a responsible customer. As many nonreputable business's as are out there, I assure you there are as many non-reputable customers, I'm sorry to say you've fallen in that later catagory. now that ALL the facts are out, I'm sure people will be more discerning when you vocalize. Next time, dont leave out certain "things" to make your self look better. As a matter of fact, I do find it ironic that someone who couldnt afford the installs can afford so many exotic vehicles? Your in Laurel, I'm in Ellicott City, I'll be waiting to hear from you...Rob

Rob at Proform just did my clearbra install yesterday. I used this thread to pick him, and came back to post the pictures from the install. Rob is a real pro, and did an incredible job for me.


Starting with the hood:

http://m3.titansfan098.com/carpics/hood1a.jpg



Hood's done, close up at the right angles, you clearly see the seam:

http://m3.titansfan098.com/carpics/hoodtop.jpg



Bumper/spoiler work:

http://m3.titansfan098.com/carpics/spoiler.jpg





Fenders get covered, headlights and foglamps all got 40mil coverings and some pictures of the dooredge guard and leading edge of mirrors:

http://m3.titansfan098.com/carpics/dooredge.jpg http://m3.titansfan098.com/carpics/mirror.jpg



Last touch ups, you can clearly see the fender protection seam here:

http://m3.titansfan098.com/carpics/moving bubbles.jpg



Final product:

http://m3.titansfan098.com/carpics/finished1.jpg

http://m3.titansfan098.com/carpics/finished3.jpg



Now that this is done, clearly it's time to think about doing something with these pipes... :)

http://m3.titansfan098.com/carpics/needpipes.jpg


BTW, when it comes to my car, I prefer to deal with professionals who are as serious about my baby as I am. Rob clearly fits the bill.

Alex

Originally posted by PROFORM
Now about your install on your new car, I have seen many installers with years of practice curse and throw tools at an M3 install, ESPECIALLY with wrapped edges. But you're better? I'll make you an offer Ken, If you can show me DEFINATIVE PROOF that you did the install on your new M3 (ie; pictures,video) and that that install is textbook perfect. I will refund you every bit of the cost of your red M3, and will name you as installer of the year on my website! Frankly, if you can install better than me on that car with no experience, you are surely in the wrong line of work.

I can personally verify that Ken did the install on his new M3 himself, because I was there, and he did it in my Mom's garage.

I can also personally verify that the job he and I did is many, many times better than the install on the Red M3, primarily because we wrapped the entire thing in 24" sheets of material, and didn't use a kit. There were no cuts or scratches in the paint. The wrap covers much more of the hood than the kits do. We followed up his install with the install on my STi. As well as 2 hood wraps on CRV's, and Ken has done another STi. The only flaw with any of these installs happened on one of the CRV's. I know exactly what happened, and I still haven't been able to find it again.

If you don't believe that first time installers can wrap cars, I don't know what to tell you. It took a long time, but it was worth it. And, the next installs went faster, as we knew what we were doing.

Again, I don't have any issue with your installation technique, skill, price, or anything else. But, I can personally verify that Ken and I did a kick ass job installing full wraps that are significantly better than any kit out there on several vehicles. The fact that we choose to do this as a hobby, and not to support ourselves, has nothing to do with a lack of installation skill.

Come to a BMW autocross and you can check out my STi install if you'd like to see how we did it. I'll let Ken speak for himself regarding his car.

Originally posted by dave is cool
If you want great customer service with someone who really knows what they're talking about, talk to Raja at EuroAutoConcepts. He can be reached at 703.736.9498

Tell him Sean sent you! :D


Hey, 736 is a Herndon exchange....right down the street. I'll have to stop by.

T

Rob,

I'll try to address each one of your points.

Hindsight is 20/20. I should have come back to you when I wasn't satisfied. At that point though, I figured I would just take my licks, and move on. The damage was done, so what could have been done? Since I wasn't about to have the film peeled off and have a brand new car repainted, I decided to leave it as-is. Frankly I was afraid to have you re-do the install, and I was worried about the fact that the install was done with the car half hanging out of your dirty, dusty garage when it was very cold outside. As you know the film doesn't stretch well when it's cold and you may remember, the hood piece didn't stretch all the way out to the edges.

However, as you pointed out, you gave me a good price, and I decided to suck it up. Now, I don't run around the forums trying to give you a bad name. I have spoken up a couple of times based on the experience I had.

I don't think the financial aspect of the transaction really matters and I am kind of disappointed that you are trying to make me look like a broke moron; as if I didn't deserve your quality work because I got some kind of special deal. I don't remember pulling a gun on you to get some kind of special price. Everyone has good times and bad times. I had just bought the M3 and put down a significant amount, so I was tight on money. You offered to let me pay you as you described after you talked me into letting you do the hood with the X-pel kit which I didn't really want, and I did pay you as we agreed, right? I appreciated your patience with that. I agree you were a nice guy at the time and gave me a reasonable price.

What I thought was the most important fact was the quality of the install. The fact is that there were several places where the knife cut the paint. Plain and simple, that's what happened; there wasn't much I could do about it, I still wanted the protection of having the film on there, so I left it alone and chalked it up to experience. I originally purchased a Stongard kit because I wanted wrapped edges. You said you preferred the X-Pel kits but offered to install my kit. If you didn't feel comfortable with it, maybe you should have declined.

If I am your only complaint in 10,000 installs, well I guess I had some exceptionally bad luck!

Rob March and I decided to try an installation using some 24" wide film on the hood of his Mom's CRV, and found that it wasn't too hard once we got the hang of it. We practiced a couple more times and then did my 03 M3. We found that a couple of smart guys with some patience and the right tools can do it. I have a lot of modeling experience building model planes and helicopters and I think that helped to control a knife well. I think it's possible for someone like me to do a good job and I think my install on my M3 came out great. I don't have video or pictures of myself doing the install, and I don't care whether you believe me or not. I did installs for myself and a couple of friends with good results. They are my witnesses. After seeing my M3 and Rob's STi, I have other friends with film in hand waiting for warm weather.

I am not looking for a refund. My M3 was still protected, you put your time into it, so be it.

Two of your four points seem to try to claim that the financial aspect of this transaction somehow changes the fact that the knife hit the paint. Your points 1, 2, 3, and 4 really have no bearing on that fact, and they are irrelevant to someone trying to choose an installer. Does another potential customer really care about the financial details of our deal? If so, why should they? What does the money have to do with it? I don't think I left out any pertinent facts regarding our transaction. To the car owner, the most important thing in the end is the quality of the install.

If I took advantage of a good deal you offered, good for me. If I had failed to pay you, I could see your attack regarding my financial situation at that time. Given what happened, I don't think it was called for and I think that's pretty unprofessional.

Still, I'm not here to start a big argument and I agree that I should have at least let you know about each point of my dissatisfaction.

Cheers,

Ken,
I'm not trying to get in a flame war either, as you admitted you should have let me know. Now both sides are out. When you were questioned by my friend you also had told him all was fine, as you were looking for bulk film. You do deserve the best possible install and if that wasnt the case, again you should have told me it would have been redone. My vocalization wasnt a personal attack. My points had plenty to do with the transaction. as you were leaving in a couple days. So we did it in my "dirty dusty garage" I'll not apologize for having fun toys and working on them. At least I have a garage, a very nice one at that.The whole point was to:1. If someone has an issue, bring it back or let them know, its your responsibility. I for one handle each person on a case to case basis. Secondly, when questioned by my my friend and telling him all was fine, you still kept telling the same story. Granted your friend and yourself do "installs" for fun, as do I, I love what I do. By me pointing out the whole transaction, it showed character or the lack there of, for how you treated someone that was gracious to you. Thats my beef. I have done installs on everything from Daiwoos to Diablos, and I treat every customer with the same caring regardless of what they drive. Best of luck...Rob

Originally posted by robmarch
I can personally verify that Ken did the install on his new M3 himself, because I was there, and he did it in my Mom's garage.

I can also personally verify that the job he and I did is many, many times better than the install on the Red M3, primarily because we wrapped the entire thing in 24" sheets of material, and didn't use a kit.

Again, I don't have any issue with your installation technique, skill, price, or anything else. But, I can personally verify that Ken and I did a kick ass job installing full wraps that are significantly better than any kit out there on several vehicles.


Not to jump in the middle but I see two different things here: In one scenario Ken did the install himself and in the other it was done by Ken AND Robmarch.

Sounds to me like Rob doesn't have to refund the entire cost of that M3 after all.... :b_blue:

Alright, let me not add any fuel to the fire. Sorry folks.

Originally posted by PROFORM
At least I have a garage, a very nice one at that.

:rolleyes:

What is this supposed to imply?

Originally posted by Tchakamon

Not to jump in the middle but I see two different things here: In one scenario Ken did the install himself and in the other it was done by Ken AND Robmarch.

Sounds to me like Rob doesn't have to refund the entire cost of that M3 after all....

There are lots of installers that use an assistant as a second pair of hands, and to hand the primary installer tools and the like. I did the primary install on the STi, with Ken's assistance, and Ken did the primary install on the M3, with my assistance. Truth be told, Ken helped me out a lot with the cuts on my STi install, because his precision with the exacto is better than mine. Before you dismiss that statement, I build guitars and put intricate inlay in them, and consider myself to have extremely good precision with that type of operation.

And, Ken isn't looking to take Rob up on his offer, anyway.

I'm not sure how this developed into a flame war, there's nothing Rob could have done to fix the cuts in the paint by redoing the install anyway. Like I said before, most of you guys probably would never notice them anyway.

It was to imply that my garage, is far from dusty and dirty, its a 600 sq ft 2 car garage, that is heated, air conditioned,and has hot and cold running water, along with an office that I used to run the business from and cable tv and has Cable network computer and that is detached from my home, my new shop evident in the post from Alex is as nice if not nicer. I have a 71 conv. chevelle, that I'm restoring to pro-touring that is over 400 hp, also a 95 Chev 1500, that is 660 hp with a supercharged 383 stroker motor, not to mention my Harley, and 2 other friends Harleys that I work on for them...Dusty and dirty, I think not, used for customizing and toys? ABSOF'NLUTLY!!!. Thats what it implies.
Now to hopefully put an end to this whole thing, Ken had his point and I had mine, I agree to disagree. To the part about if they could be fixed? I didnt see them but as a 3M distributor, I can tell you there isnt anything that cant be fixed. As I had said this IS my line of work, and I see cars come to me all the time that WE make right (from previous road rash or chips or anything of that nature) BEFORE we protect them. I'm not going to get into the semantics of kit design as everyone varies in there opinion. Ultimatly if it had been brought to my attention the kit would have been removed, and if there was a problem, the areas in question would have been repaired then a new kit reinstalled at no charge, BUT that never happened. what happened is done. To anyone that would like advice or have questions about the makeup of PPF from a PROFESSIONAL 3M Approved installer and converter, by all means ask away. Feel free to drop me a line or visit me online. toll free 866-PRO-3682

Rob,

I really want to leave this alone, but I need to touch again on a couple of your points.

1) Your garage may be big, and heated and air conditioned. Too bad my car wasn't in it when you were working on it, despite the fact that it was the middle of winter. And my memory must be failing me. I saw the car you are restoring, complete with a nice coat of dust, and I believe an engine, at some level of disassembly, with dirty parts and tools around. Please don't make me out to look like a liar. I remember being concerned about the cold, dusty environment when I brought the car over but I trusted you that it wouldn't be an issue. To your credit, dust under the film was not the problem. ;)

2) There are things that can't be fixed. Once there is paint damage, it's done. Touch-ups and re-sprays don't return the finish to factory condition, period. This is the main reason I didn't get in touch with you after I found the cuts. I didn't want to get into an argument about what could and could not be done. The car was brand new. I did not want the film to be removed, only to risk the same fate when new film was installed!

Again, thats a difference of opinion, as you had said you do this for fun, I'm a professional. FACT: Dealers touch up and respray cars all the time at dealerships without customers knowledge. It has to be a certain dollar amount before it has to be disclosed to the customer. I'm quite sure your familiar with the "trizac perfect it"clear coat refinishing system, which has been used on clear coats for the past couple years. Your really making this hard as any of your points hold no validity. The motor you described was the supercharged one. I'll include pics in another post, its hardly dirty, and last I checked, garages were made to be worked in?? Your comment was directed to try to insult the conditions and lend credence to your point. I'm not saying you didnt have a point to begin with, I only voiced my side of it, and I would guess by the number of pm's I'm getting that I'm justified. So its done. Ive been in meticulus shops, My shop in Ellicott City is one. I have to admit though, your responses just validate my points, all of them. As I had said personal opinion is one thing, what professionals do should be left to the professionals, ESPECIALLY when it comes to paint and detailing and dealerships. Your way out of your league here. So we can keep going back and forth and get where? I already said I agree to disagree.

Rob,

You're right, we're not going anywhere. :D My problem probably is that most people wouldn't care about it as much as I do. Maybe the experience I had wasn't common. I'm sure you do great work in your new shop. I'm just getting too worked up because I was mad that my new M3 got messed up. Neither my points nor yours change that unfortunate fact.

Cheers,
Ken

Understand perfectly, Thats why you should have let me know, Ken I'm a professional, and I would have made you happy, period. But I didnt get that chance, and it all came about second hand. Hope the lesson was learned. But empathize for a moment, as much of a perfectionist as I am, Did you think for one second that someone not happy with my work wouldnt affect me? I built my business on fairness and quality. If thats a bad quality as a business man, then I'll take that monicer anytime. now lets all move on to more productive things:)

Originally posted by PROFORM
As I had said personal opinion is one thing, what professionals do should be left to the professionals, ESPECIALLY when it comes to paint and detailing and dealerships. Your way out of your league here. So we can keep going back and forth and get where? I already said I agree to disagree.

After seeing Ken's current car and Rob (March)'s car and the job they did on their clear film, I was blown away. They may not be "professional" clear film installers but the job they did was top-notch. There is not a single flaw in the film on either car, and there certainly were not any cut marks in the paint.

Installing the clear film is obviously not rocket science if two guys who are "way out of [their] league" doing a job that should be "left to the professionals" can do such a great job. :dunno

I certainly would expect a friend to back up another friend. Like I said numerous times. Its a matter of opinion. And having installed on a few cars is quite different than all of the available models. The difficulty facter varies greatly on many models.So kudos to you for sticking up for your friend, but I think this thread has really run its course.
And just for the record, my comment on leaving it to the professionals in that instance was directed at the new trizac series of clear coat prep that is used in detailing and in body shops.

Originally posted by PROFORM
I certainly would expect a friend to back up another friend. Like I said numerous times. Its a matter of opinion. And having installed on a few cars is quite different than all of the available models. The difficulty facter varies greatly on many models.So kudos to you for sticking up for your friend, but I think this thread has really run its course.


I have no need to "stick up" for Ken - I have no vested interest in what people think of him. I can't speak for the quality of your work. However, I think the tone of your posts clearly speaks for itself and this thread will be a great asset for anyone trying to decide who to have install their clear film.

Originally posted by kenkamm
...my new M3 got messed up. Neither my points nor yours change that unfortunate fact.

And that's really the bottom line, isn't it?

Originally posted by SoloII///M
I can't speak for the quality of your work. However, I think the tone of your posts clearly speaks for itself and this thread will be a great asset for anyone trying to decide who to have install their clear film.

Thank you I agree, the tone of my posts and the professionalism that I have shown has booked me 6 new jobs from this thread alone. I believe customers respect someone that will stand their ground but listen with an empethatic ear. I believe that Ken and myself have kind of agreed about the situation, and I have no animosity towards him. And to anyone that wants to self install, by all means do-it. Home Depot makes it easier for home owners. Maybe I'll set a weekend aside for people that want to attempt this themselves to come in my shop and have all the tools available for a self install event. If anyone is interested please let me know.

:biglaughb

Originally posted by Subway Psycho
And that's really the bottom line, isn't it?

I think so. regardless of the long string of attempts to discredit the unsatisfied customer's credibility (including attacking the quality of a self installation that the vendor didn't even see, implying that bargaining for a better price means the customer is POOR!:love1, and sharing several excuses for making the mistake in the first place which all were Ken's fault, of course), the bottom line is that the customer is allowed to share bad experiences with friends. The fact that Ken didn't go back and give the installer a chance to rectify the situation is totally and completely removed from the fact that the install had problems. Customers are free to share their experience, and other potential customers are free to make their own judgements about how the situation was handled.

And, think about it. If it was your car, would you take it back to the person that you feel did a poor job on the installation and trust them to do a good job on a much, much harder job of fixing the mistake?

Honestly, I think most people on this board, and certainly most people in the general population would have been pretty happy with the install on the Red M3. The film is supposed to prevent paint damage, not create it, though. Ken learned the hard way that his standards are higher than most, and learned that sometimes, "If you want something done right, do it yourself." As someone who has seen both installs first hand, the vendor's attacks on the unseen install are unfounded and unwarranted, and reek of rhetoric to try to discourage people from saving the installation costs and attempting an installation themselves. The E46 M3 is considered one of the most difficult installs out there, so the fact that Ken and I haven't done thousands of installs is a pretty minor point, if we were successful at two very difficult installs (M3 and STi) on our first attempt.

But, the bottom line here is that, regardless of either install quality, this vendor has clearly demonstrated his "bedside manner" and how he deals with customers to the board. If you feel that the vendor is responding appropriately here, and are satisfied with the quality of his installs, keep using him as an installer. I'm sure he appreciates the advertising here.


As a gift to the bimmerforums, I will say the following. 90% of the installation difficulty of these films (in wrap form, which is much harder than kit installation) is in wrapping the compound curves and features of the bumper. If you're ok with your bumper collecting some rock chips, but chips on your hood drive you crazy, I think anyone on this board could do a decent job installing a 12" sheet on their hood that would cover the same area that the kits cover, if they pay attention and work carefully. Starting with 24" bulk material gives even better coverage, but is slightly harder to work with. The bulk 24" material is very affordable, to the point that I was willing to tear the stuff off and try again if I messed up the first time.

Then again, what do I know?

Originally posted by PROFORM
I'm a professional.
Sure doesn't look like it based on this thread.
Just a helpful hint: Potential customers are not impressed by vendors trying to belittle previous customers. :nono

Originally posted by PROFORM
Your really making this hard as any of your points hold no validity.

Have you even read his posts???

Originally posted by PROFORM
Your comment was directed to try to insult the conditions and lend credence to your point.

Hmmm, sounds like you did the same thing on your end by sharing the financial details of his transaction. At least his comment was relevant to the point.

Originally posted by robmarch
And, think about it. If it was your car, would you take it back to the person that you feel did a poor job on the installation and trust them to do a good job on a much, much harder job of fixing the mistake?

Amen.

Originally posted by robmarch
.............................. implying that bargaining for a better price means the customer is POOR!

Ok, I have been biting my lip on this one. I thought this thread was too serious. Now that it has concluded...I must react.

POOR, POOR, POOR!!!

Ahhhhh, that felt better. Carry on.:smoke3:

just for you, sir.


Thanks for stopping by :)

[

And, think about it. If it was your car, would you take it back to the person that you feel did a poor job on the installation and trust them to do a good job on a much, much harder job of fixing the mistake?

Honestly, I think most people on this board, and certainly most people in the general population would have been pretty happy with the install on the Red M3. The film is supposed to prevent paint damage, not create it, though.
[/B]

You make a great valid point Rob. I ran into a situation with a shop that did the custom stereo in my dually. I was not at all satisfied with the quality of the work. However, I did allow them to fix it and make it right, there was a problem with the wiring of the amps. Now, will I go back to them, no I wont, but I did allow them to right what was wrong. As I had said I believe both ken and I agreed on that fact. I never meant to insinuate that he was poor. But there were instances that I felt justified enough to say. Through my kindness at the time of the transaction and wanting to help him out to protect his car. I made that offer to Ken, he didnt ask for that.Ken at no time tried to bargin me down and I enjoyed the time working on his car, as we talked about different things while the work was being performed. The person that handles the blends and paint portion of my company is one of the best around. He actually does the work at dealerships in the Columbia/Ellicott City area. Thats not even saying a blend needed to be done, many small things are removed w/ trizac. Again your are right that a person has the right to share with his friends about an experience, if I didnt agree I wouldnt be posting, also if I didnt care about my reputation I wouldnt be as well. I happened to have done two cars for a gentleman that actually looked at purchasing Kens red M3, and that car was a selling point for my services. As I'm redoing his red M3 that took a beating from a retread on the beltway. I can empathize with Kens feelings on his car as I stated above, I'm also on the other side of the fence as well. I reiterate as a business, I would have liked the chance to make things right
When I pointed out the use of trizac for clear coats, its a 3000 grit paper and compounds that is designed for the sole purpose of clear coats and scratches. The reason most people dont know of this as it is marketed strictly to body and detail shops. This process is also used for the 3M PPF, the film can actually be sanded and buffed to remove tiny imperfections that occur in daily driving. This info is also not marketed to the general consumer. 3M also has a PPF cleaner and polisher that helps remove the wax buildup in edges of the film.
I'm hoping with these latter comments that this thread can revert from a flame war and personal attacks to bring out info on a viable and important product for us all. I feel that we would all be in agreement on the benefits that it brings. As you so stated, and I use the same quote everyday. Its designed to protect the paint.

Well now that we've beaten this thread to death about this stongard issue, I am going to go out on a limb and ask for more info about this trizac clear coat system. What I have read about it is that it's designed to remove light imperfections from clear coats. I don't know much more about it, but I have assumed, hopefully incorrectly, that it basically removes some amount of clear coat to remove light scratches.

When my car was two days old, it was hit with a bunch of eggs. Before anyone asks, no, it was not provoked. The apartment complex I used to live in was occasionally targeted by a bunch of troublemakers, and they saw a brand new M3 with temp tags and a couple of other nice cars, and the rest is history. The liquid part of the eggs didn't do any damage, but the clear coat was scratched by the egg shells, leaving many small scratches, too deep to allow removable with some polish.

I'm wondering if this trizac system could be used to restore the finish.

When it happened, I called a couple of highly rated body shops, and they basically told me that they would want to repaint each affected panel, as well as blend to adjacent panels. I'd rather leave it as-is than have almost the entire car repainted.

I did a bit of research on modern paint finishes, and learned that the high solids clear they use today is essentially unrepairable once the damage is more than .5 mils (.0005") deep. This is because the clear coat is typically about 1.5 mils thick, but only the top .5 mils is the hard, environment-resistant part. If polish or other methods removes more than that, the clear coat in that area is permeable, and will eventually break down from environmental contaminants. Waxes won't help. Eventually, the clear coat will fail in that area and result in a cloudy or milky appearance.

The hardness of the high solids clear coat means that the edges can't be feathered, so spot repair is not recommended. That doesn't stop some shops from doing it, but what usually happens after a year or so of weathering is that the dreaded white circle shows up. The only way to restore the unbroken, hard top layer of the clear coat is to re-do the panel.

Is there more to the trizac system than removal of a certain amount of clear?

Thanks,
Ken

Its a system for doing that exact thing, its a 3000 girt paper that will take out these fine scratches or contaminates( ie: eggs), using it with a DA you can use it to level out the whole panel without really removing much if any of the clear coat, it is mainly used for leveling clears to get out imperfections. Its cool stuff, its what we use on the PPF if there is something that pierces but doesnt go through the film... here is a link to the 3M site for some info that I may have left out... http://products3.3m.com/catalog/us/en001/manufacturing_industry/abrasives/node_GSVZWS3Z59be/root_GST1T4S9TCgv/vroot_J1299GV0RKge/gvel_902CRQH4MHgl/theme_us_superabrasivescatalog_3_0/command_AbcPageHandler/output_html