I'm installing a Vortech kit on my car next week, because i'm sick of C% vettes kicking my ass at the race track. Since i use this car for a lot of time trial racing i am concerned about the heat soak. So i was going to add an oil cooler to atleast keep the oil cooler, as it already runs hot. So i guess my question is if i run 8lbs. of boost with no intercooler do you think i will have reliability problems (heat soak problems) at the track, if i keep the oil temp. under control. I know these questions seem basic but i have never used forced induction and with the amount of trck time it will see i want to make sure i make it reliable. Thanks guys

>>do you think i will have reliability problems (heat soak problems) at the track, if i keep the oil temp. under control<<

I dont know for sure. But in general, if you spend a significant amount of time at the track, I would say add all the safeguards against temperature that you can. Also, being a track car, I think an intercooler would serve you well also, probably before I added an oil cooler. Plus, if you Really want to have at least a shot at keeping those vettes at bay, I think you should at least consider strongly some degree of boost bump and some custom tuning.

I can tell you, if you want to help keep engine bay temps at bay, the cheapest thing you can do is remove some of the weatherproof molding from the back of the engine bay compartment.

There have been many posting about this in the past. I finally did this last summer, and before doing it the engine bay was hotter than hot.

After removing the majority of the molding, the engine bay temps dropped dramatically... to the point when I can put my hands on the intake manifold without much discomfort....

To me this is a mod all FI E36s and Z3s should do!

BMM - the oil cooler probably won't help heat soak, but running track, the oil will probably get very hot. I don't believe the M3's have an oil temp gauge, so you wouldn't know how hot the oil gets. With my car, an M-Roadster, I definitely needed an oil cooler after the S/C install. Also, if you're going to run track events, an oil temp gauge, maybe mounted on the A-pillar, would probably be a good idea too.

Dave - are there any bad effects of removing that molding. I wouldn't mind dropping my underhood temps a little. I noticed some electronic modules are in that area of the engine compartment. Are they gonna get shorted out or something when it's raining?

I left the molding surrounding the ECU unit alone.... other than that I removed all the other rear molding.....

I did this last summer, and I've driven in many NY rain storms. After the first big one we had, I checked after getting back to my garage... the engine bay was as dry as it always was.....

Here's a pic of the area I removed...

<img src="http://forums.***************************************?s=&postid=1361092"/>

and here's a link to the original thread....

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=127970&perpage=25&highlight=underhood%20temps%20molding&pagenumber=3

-Dave

Originally posted by cal_guy19
BMM - the oil cooler probably won't help heat soak, but running track, the oil will probably get very hot. I don't believe the M3's have an oil temp gauge, so you wouldn't know how hot the oil gets. With my car, an M-Roadster, I definitely needed an oil cooler after the S/C install. Also, if you're going to run track events, an oil temp gauge, maybe mounted on the A-pillar, would probably be a good idea too.

Dave - are there any bad effects of removing that molding. I wouldn't mind dropping my underhood temps a little. I noticed some electronic modules are in that area of the engine compartment. Are they gonna get shorted out or something when it's raining?

I've seen oil temps at around 275F on an E36 M3 with a RMS Stage 1 SC Kit. I drove that BMW on a BMW CCA driving school in Vegas and ambient temp was 90F.

The car started to overheat too so I had to turn on the heater. The car lost about 100hp and I got passed by E30 325is'

I would seriously look into getting some form of intercooling or even water injection. Maybe a larger radiator as well.

Thanks for the help guys. So do any of you have opinions on wether an intercooler or water injection offers better bang for the buck. Also who make (what size) an intercooler that will fit in my car? I'm pretty good a custom fab and coulb probably make all the pipes and connectors just need a source and size for the intercooler. A water injection system seems easier than that, so if anyone has had good experience with that please let me know.

I already have an oil temp gauge and it reads about 260 after beating the piss out of it on the track.

I like the molding idea i think i will definatley do it, i was just today thinking i would put a inlet in place of the left headlight on the track and wondering how the air would get out, now i know. THanks

The outlet configuration of the Vortech doesn't lend itself to air/air intercooler plumbing. I've suggested a number of times that the outlet needs to be straight, and pointing down to clean up the plumbing. I may get the opportunity to take a whack at the design soon....

There's probably a lot of opinions about what's better - intercooler or water injection. A few of my observations:

1. water injection is quite a bit less expensive
2. It does cool the compressed intake air, but only while
it's spraying.
3. Intercoolers for Vortech are usually air/water. RMS makes a kit. Around $3000 installed.
4. But the heat the intercooler removes eventually goes to the water/air heat exchanger in the front of your car. The air passing thru that goes right into your engine compartment, with all that heat. So this approach doesn't do anything for underhood temps.
4a. This is where Dave's suggestion comes in!
5. And since its heat exchanger is placed in front of the A/C condenser, on warm/hot days, it can degrade the performance of your air conditioner, if you care about such things (I do.)
6. BMW recommends you do NOT exceed 250 F for extended periods for your oil temperature. Sounds like you're getting past that, and could use an oil cooler.

I have an oil cooler and aftercooler on my car. After two hours on the dyno my car never ran hot (210 and below) and only lost approx. 10-15rwhp. I have not tracked the car yet, but during extended canyon runs my car never runs hot. The oil cooler will help extend the life of the blower and the aftercooler is pretty effective at reducing heat soak. The great thing about and oil cooler and aftercooler is that once they are hooked up, you can forget about them. Just need to change your oil at regular intervals and flush the aftercooler once a year.
Water injection is a little more difficult in my experience. I have a 320i with a turbo and SMC Enterprises WI. It took me a little more than a week to get it dialed in right. And from what i have heard you need to stay on top of WI systems.
Finally, if you are goingto go FI, get a set of gauges. You should at least have a boost gauge, Oil temp gauge, and Oil pressure gauge. You can buy kits that place the gauges where your sunglass holder is. You can also mount an EGT or afr gauge on the A-pillar.

Originally posted by DakarDave
I can tell you, if you want to help keep engine bay temps at bay, the cheapest thing you can do is remove some of the weatherproof molding from the back of the engine bay compartment.

There have been many posting about this in the past. I finally did this last summer, and before doing it the engine bay was hotter than hot.

After removing the majority of the molding, the engine bay temps dropped dramatically... to the point when I can put my hands on the intake manifold without much discomfort....

To me this is a mod all FI E36s and Z3s should do!

Dave,
I missed out on that whole thread.
The weather is going to get warm and I will be battling with heat issue all over again last like last summer. I've been consulting with Osh on this, so maybe he could have a solution for us FIed Z3 guys. But meanwhile, I think I am gonna give a try to "removing molding" thing. ;)

Sean -
I wish you could see the difference it made on my car. After a long, aggressive drive... my hood would be hotter than hot.
After I removed the molding... the hood is cool even to the touch... it really is that different....

>> can tell you, if you want to help keep engine bay temps at bay, the cheapest thing you can do is remove some of the weatherproof molding from the back of the engine bay compartment. <<

I also removed the stripping.. Not as much as you did, but just the part from the indent in front of the wipers, to the corner where the fender starts.. .I cut it, and removed it. I treat it as a small insert I can remove, or replace. I did it this way becasue I didnt see the need to remove as much as you did, since the way I looked at it, I wanted a 'vent', thats all, and a ft long strip serves very nicely as the underhood vent.

BUT HERE'S THE PROBLEM.

I note that there are two main access points through the firewall, to run wiring and such. One is on the passenger side, under the ECU compartment.. The other is through the fuse box area. When I tried to remove the allen screws holding on the top of the fuse box, they all came out EXCEPT ONE. Guess which one wouldnt come out? The rear most one, on the side facing the wipers, ie, right where the stripping was removed.. Why wouldnt it come out? Because the top of the allen head screw had RUSTED OUT, and I couldnt get any 'purchase' with the allen key on the screw. Meaning that IM Screwed! Its such a tight area to get into, I dont see any way of getting at it anymore. Guess Ill have to try and use the passenger side passthrough instead. Which I guess isnt terrible. And, if someone really needs to separate the top and bottom fusebox halves, a mechanic will find a way to get that screw out.

But at least its something to be aware of... Nevertheless, I will be the first to say that like Dave, I found the venting to be very effective. IM just afraid to do it now because of what happened. However, I guess the truth is I have no proof that This is what caused the ruining of the screw. And when it gets hot again, Im sure Ill remove it again. When I remove it, its just about a 12-14" Id guess piece of rubber stripping, so its certainly easy enough to remove when its not supposed to rain, and install when it is. Thats probably what Ill do this spring/summer. In the winter, I see no reason to remove it.

As to bang for the buck comparos, here's my brief take... On an 80 - 90 degree day, I believe most aftercoolers will lower the IATs to around 115-120 degrees when the engine is being well exercized. Ive found that with a well sorted out Aquamist system, IATs in similar circumstances, will produce IATs of between 125 and 135 degrees. IOW, for my money, for ultimate protection when you need it most, I like the WI. What you Dont get with WI is cooled cruising. IATs will typically run ambient plus 100 degrees when off boost, at moderate to high rpm cruising. Yet, when youre cruising, do you care that much, provided youre not in danger of overheating? I dont... Im not looking for peak power when Im cruising. When I want peak power, I go WOT, and the WI is always at the ready to cool down the IATs, and allow for the programmed spark advance, while even doing something the intercoolers dont: smooth out the burn, and directly cool the temps IN THE CHAMBER. This , after all, is the main function of water injection. The cooling of the intake charge is really considered a secondary benefit! What this does is to better allow for more programmed spark advance. Lastly, and obviously, with regard to packaging and installation, the WI is a no brainer simpler task.

So, overall, which is better bang for the buck? I would say, for the street, WI is. For the track Id insist on having both.

My ultimate goal... if it is achievable... is to have a FI car with the same or better underhood temps and IATs.... :)

Now that would be *COOL*

-Dave

Originally posted by DakarDave
Sean -
I wish you could see the difference it made on my car. After a long, aggressive drive... my hood would be hotter than hot.
After I removed the molding... the hood is cool even to the touch... it really is that different....

Dave, I removed the weather seal rubber thing, I was able to pull them out without any problem. Will have to wait until weather warms up to test.

Oh...and I have another idea for us people with RMS aftercooler. As you know, I have 1700 cfm pusher fan for aftercooler heat exchanger isntead of RMS's weak fan. Even with this, if I stick a piece of paper between AC heat exchanger and radiator, I can see that no air is hitting the radiator. So all that air (1700 cfm) got pushed into RMS heat exchanger and somehow got lost by the time it passed the AC heat exchanger.

I know a lot of people with RMS aftercooler have overheating problem. Engine fan alone is surely not enough to cool the radiator on hot days. Pusher fan in front of the RMS heat exchanger will not get to radiator (no way with 800 cfm RMS fan if my 1700 cfm fan isn't doing it).

Some of us have electric puller fan instead of engine fan (mine is 2300 cfm) to prevent overheating. But it still is not enough to turn on the AC most of time.

So the solution I thought of is...why not pull the RMS aftercooler heat exchanger to the front a bit. There is at least 2 inches of safe gap that RMS heat exchanger can be pulled towards the nose of the car. If you look at it, it is secured by two bolts. After that, stick a slim line Spal fan on the AC heat exchanger and remove the pusher fan for RMS heat exchanger. That *should* get air through AC and radiator. Hmmm...I think this *could* be the answer to many people with RMS aftercooler who are having issues during hot weather...

Sean - That's what I like about the weather seal removal mod - it's really easy to reverse the mod.... I've had the weather seal removed since last summer, and the strips have never been back on.... no ill side effects on my applicaiton yet.

About the RMS aftercooler heat exchanger... is there any reason why a heat exchanger couldn't be made that mounted where many Air to Air FMIC are mounted....

It would seem to me, that this approach would eliminate the need for the stock 800cfm haden push fan, and eliminate a fair amount of noise from the RMS stage II setup.....

Originally posted by DakarDave
Sean - That's what I like about the weather seal removal mod - it's really easy to reverse the mod.... I've had the weather seal removed since last summer, and the strips have never been back on.... no ill side effects on my applicaiton yet.

About the RMS aftercooler heat exchanger... is there any reason why a heat exchanger couldn't be made that mounted where many Air to Air FMIC are mounted....

It would seem to me, that this approach would eliminate the need for the stock 800cfm haden push fan, and eliminate a fair amount of noise from the RMS stage II setup.....

First thing I am going to do is make a custom shroud for the puller fan. I've been doing some research and not having the shroud is cooling only the area where fan is mounted. For me (I think for yours as well) with 16", I would say, only 50% is being used. Hopefully this custom shroud will make some difference by making the use of 100% area of the radiator.