http://www.chevrolet.com/corvette/C6_preview/images/gallery/wall2_800x600.jpg :love1

No. But then again, I made this decision about 5 months ago when I decided to go with the M3 instead of the Z06. I wanted a practical sports car that I could put 4 people in if needed. I've not second guessed my decision so far.

Not me. The performance will be exceptional, I'm sure. But the vette (new or old) just doesn't do it for me.

I'd never trade my car for that...

No thanks. I haven't yet recieved my M3 ("awaiting transport"according to Owner's Circle info) but I have no doubt I chose the right car after ordering the M3.

That's a negative, ghost rider. I didn't like the C5, and the C6 looks like a cheap kit car to me.

Did you read the article? The M3 outperforms it according to R&T. Maybe if I had a Mullet and drank Coors Light.

BRING IT ON! (Our headlights are better) haha

Was it C5 that looked like an NSX? Now C6 looks like a Ferrari. And to answer your question, no.

aahhhhhhhhh lol whos stupid enuff to trade in a german sports car with that american piece of shit lol

i wouldent trade in my e30 with that haha..

Very ignorant responses from most of you.

If the Vette is not your "cup of tea," that's fine. To each their own, right? You don't like the styling? Fine. Two-seater just not practical enough for you? OK. The cost prohibitive? No problem. Or is it just that a pure sports car isn't what you're looking for? Alrighty then.

But don't come on here and spew your nonsense about mullets and cheap interiors and American POSs. Also, make sure you know your facts before you start talking about the C6 being outperformed by the M3. What kind of "performance" are we talking about here, because I'd bet there are more than a few categories where the C6 would take any M3 (E30, E36 or E46) to task.

Why is it that Vette threads bring out the worst in people around here? I think it's because some of you have insecurity issues about your own car, so you have to nitpick at every little thing about cars that are (potentially) better than ours.

Like I said, if they're not your personal preference, that's one thing; if all you can do is hop on the cheap-plastic-interior-mullet-driven bandwagon, take your ignorant opinion elsewhere, because some of us are tired of hearing your pathetic musings on this subject.

Now I know why BMW-owners get a bad name. Elitists...

Let's see how "elite" you are when these things blow by you on the drag strip, the auto-x course and the track.

Originally posted by E30 FREAK14
aahhhhhhhhh lol whos stupid enuff to trade in a german sports car with that american piece of shit lol

i wouldent trade in my e30 with that haha..

You must be smoking crack if you wouldnt trade your 1991 325i for a new Corvette. I could understand if you had a new E46 M3 but a 91'. Please.

I think it looks better than the C5 and from everything I've read it looks to be just as quick as the current Z06. The only thing I dont like is the new steering wheel, its fugly!

It is one of the few cars I'd look at if I was going to spend around $50k, but they would have to had made the interior/headroom bigger since I couldn't fit in the C5 (I'm 6'8).

Originally posted by Ron17
If the Vette is not your "cup of tea," that's fine. To each their own, right? You don't like the styling? Fine. Two-seater just not practical enough for you? OK. The cost prohibitive? No problem. Or is it just that a pure sports car isn't what you're looking for? Alrighty then.

But don't come on here and spew your nonsense about mullets and cheap interiors and American POSs. Also, make sure you know your facts before you start talking about the C6 being outperformed by the M3. What kind of "performance" are we talking about here, because I'd bet there are more than a few categories where the C6 would take any M3 (E30, E36 or E46) to task.

Why is it that Vette threads bring out the worst in people around here? I think it's because some of you have insecurity issues about your own car, so you have to nitpick at every little thing about cars that are (potentially) better than ours.

Like I said, if they're not your personal preference, that's one thing; if all you can do is hop on the cheap-plastic-interior-mullet-driven bandwagon, take your ignorant opinion elsewhere, because some of us are tired of hearing your pathetic musings on this subject.

Now I know why BMW-owners get a bad name. Elitists...

Let's see how "elite" you are when these things blow by you on the drag strip, the auto-x course and the track.


...word

As an ex-C5 owner and now E36 M3 owner... I agree with Ron and VJlax.

I'd give anything to be back behind the wheel of a C5/C6. I hate to say it, but the M3 is not a true "sports car". I love the M3 at the track, but if I had the choice, I would take the Corvette over the M3 anyday at the track.

Most Corvette bashers all say the same thing: cheap interior, outdated pushrod technology, blah blah. The LS1/LS6 and soon LS2, are some of the most advanced powerplants available. The engine weighs LESS than the engines BMW makes and puts out gobs more HP and torque....

How about this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=2456041745

It has NO interior to complain about and will walk all over most anything out there.

:rant over:

Originally posted by magnetic1

How about this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=2456041745

It has NO interior to complain about and will walk all over most anything out there.

:rant over:


I'd rather have this: http://www.activeautowerke.com/cars/Silver98M/Default.asp

sell the c5, use the money to buy an earlier e36 m3, take it to active, and you'll have more power than the c5 (or z06 for that matter) and outhandle one with just some minor suspension work. One of my friends had a c5 and he constantly had problems with it cause he was always dogging on it, however i've seen m3's that with over 140k on them that have been redlined everyday of their life and they keep putting a smile on your face everyday :D I'd take a E46 m3 over a c5 anyday btw. Its not about being snobby, but at the end of the day would you rather drive a BMW or Chevy?

Originally posted by Ron17
If the Vette is not your "cup of tea," that's fine. To each their own, right? You don't like the styling? Fine. Two-seater just not practical enough for you? OK. The cost prohibitive? No problem. Or is it just that a pure sports car isn't what you're looking for? Alrighty then.
What is your definition of a "pure sports car"? IMO, neither the M3 nor the Vette qualifies as one simply because they are both too heavy to be a pure sports car.

This is a BMW forum. You may not expect everyone here to be a jerk, but you should know responses to a thread like this will mostly be negative, if not flamebait.

If you can afford an E46 M3, you can surely afford a C6 Vette. It's just what you want your car to be.

Originally posted by Ali
I'd rather have this: http://www.activeautowerke.com/cars/Silver98M/Default.asp

sell the c5, use the money to buy an earlier e36 m3, take it to active, and you'll have more power than the c5 (or z06 for that matter) and outhandle one with just some minor suspension work. One of my friends had a c5 and he constantly had problems with it cause he was always dogging on it, however i've seen m3's that with over 140k on them that have been redlined everyday of their life and they keep putting a smile on your face everyday :D I'd take a E46 m3 over a c5 anyday btw. Its not about being snobby, but at the end of the day would you rather drive a BMW or Chevy?

Maybe your friend just doenst know how to drive... plenty of C5s are track driven to the limits and are perfectly fine. And the E36 M3 you linked to might have all that power, but without flared fenders and some serious wide tires, it isnt going to make use of any of that power on the track. Why do you think all the nationally competitive E36 M3 guys all run with flared fenders?

Bash all you want, but the C5 and probably C6 are some the best factory ready track/autoX cars out there for the money.
And that is the point were trying to get across here. Not just baseless comments like "It sucks" or "never" or "American cars suck"....

Originally posted by Ali
Its not about being snobby, but at the end of the day would you rather drive a BMW or Chevy?

Sorry, you know I like you, but what could be more snobby than this?

If the Chevy is a better car than the BMW, then I'd like to drive the better car (financial considerations aside). Now, that's not to say a Cavalier is better than an M3, but a Z06 better than an M3... well, that's at least within reason.

There is NOTHING more snobby than simply choosing Product A over Product B based on the name.

Finally, I'll leave you with a quote from someone I know (won't say who) that illustrates a similar point quite beautifully:

I just don't wanna put the Borla exhaust on my car, because it's something that you can get on a GM car.

Nevermind the fact that, by his own admission, the Borla exhaust sounded incredible and was an attractive piece. Nevermind the fact that it was priced competitively. Nevermind the fact that it is rare to find on BMWs around here, which is something else this person was very sensitive about (not having what everyone else also had).

The sole reason he didn't want it was because you could also find this brand on an American-made car!! This is the very personification of snobbery. This is the type of attitude I attempt to combat.

Originally posted by daihard
What is your definition of a "pure sports car"? IMO, neither the M3 nor the Vette qualifies as one simply because they are both too heavy to be a pure sports car.

This is a BMW forum. You may not expect everyone here to be a jerk, but you should know responses to a thread like this will mostly be negative, if not flamebait.

If you can afford an E46 M3, you can surely afford a C6 Vette. It's just what you want your car to be.

The M3 is not a pure sports car, by anyone's definition. It is a car that started a new class of cars -- the sport sedan. It was meant to be the all-around athlete... the decathalete, not the 100m sprinter.

The Vette is and has always been a pure sports car. Always will be. If you are looking to argue this point, please spare yourself the trouble.

And again, I'll reiterate that if you don't like Vettes for real reasons, that's fine. But this nonsense about cheap interiors (baseless claim, if you ask me) or only owned by mullet-wearers or "American crap" is just silly.

Originally posted by Ron17
The Vette is and has always been a pure sports car. Always will be. If you are looking to argue this point, please spare yourself the trouble.
The only definition of a "pure sports car" that I know of requires that the car be a lightweight, RWD two-seater that's fun to drive. The Vette is much closer to that definition than the M3 is, although weighing more than 3000 pounds, the Vette still does not qualify as a pure sports car IMO. You may disagree, and that's fine.

And if you haven't read my other posts, I have never claimed the M3 to be a sports car. Whether the car that I like is a sports car or not is a very minor point to me.

Originally posted by magnetic1
And that is the point were trying to get across here. Not just baseless comments like "It sucks" or "never" or "American cars suck"....
What's the point of making a point like that in a BMW forum? I can't speak for everyone else, but I am here to talk about BMWs (well M3's in particular), not any other marques. Sure, there may be cars out there that are arguably better than the Bimmers, but if I wanted to talk about the Vette, I would visit a Corvette forum. (Now I'm sure there is one, right?)

although weighing more than 3000 pounds, the Vette still does not qualify as a pure sports car IMO

daihard come on, the Vette isn't a pure sports car? The Vette is THE American sports car. There is no car that defines sports car for America more than the Vette.

It's not that I don't like the Corvette, but it just seems like everyone and their brother has one. Also, there isn't much that differentiates the high performance Z06 from the regular Vette. Basically all of them look the same. I also think that the Vette up till now has lacked a bit in creature comfort and interior quality compared to the M3, supposedly that is changing with the latest one.

Overall, the M3 and the Corvette tend to attract really different fans though. I don't think that one can really replace the other. They both have aspects that make them very different from the other. I'd have both if I could, but given the choice I'd have the M3.

Originally posted by magnetic1
Maybe your friend just doenst know how to drive... plenty of C5s are track driven to the limits and are perfectly fine. And the E36 M3 you linked to might have all that power, but without flared fenders and some serious wide tires, it isnt going to make use of any of that power on the track. Why do you think all the nationally competitive E36 M3 guys all run with flared fenders?

Bash all you want, but the C5 and probably C6 are some the best factory ready track/autoX cars out there for the money.
And that is the point were trying to get across here. Not just baseless comments like "It sucks" or "never" or "American cars suck"....

sorry I'm coming in late. Don't frequent this forum.

couple points. first, the C5 and C6 are great track cars. Only complaints I've heard are on brakes and engine oil temp. both are easy fixes that most track cars get anyway. (I have heard of a few engines grenading in Z06's at the track, but similar stories about the early E46 M3's on the street...)
at the autocrosses though, don't expect anything the size of a corvette to be all that great. Most autocross courses are too tight for something the size of a corvette. The car to watch out for there is the beat up gutted CRX. :)
as for best *factory ready track/autoX cars out there for the money*, that would probably go to things like the EVO, the STi, and soon, trouncing them all, will be the elise. For the track side of thing, it would depend on what track as to what would be faster, evo/sti or the corvette. Daytona, it'd be a corvette. but at some tight little place like Little Taladega it'd be a different story.

You don't *need* flared fenders to get lots of grip. the right compound of tire and the right suspension will get you to probably 95% of what the flared fender guys can do in the corners. No fender flares will mean you will be faster down the straight too.

just my $0.02

-Michael mcCoy

Originally posted by Ali
Its not about being snobby, but at the end of the day would you rather drive a BMW or Chevy?

Its probably not about being snobby for most people. the cost of either car is very similar. Both cars are very capable as well, and neither one would likely ever be pushed to the limits on the street. So its not a bout speed or performance either when picking one vs the other. It comes down to image at that point. Each car will appeal to a different crowd. Gee, I wonder which crowd would be on *this* board? :D

-Michael McCoy

C6 Z06-



500 HP



Aluminum Framerails



Dry Sump Oiling System



Target weight: 3000 lbs.



All i can say is DROOL!

Originally posted by WebDev
daihard come on, the Vette isn't a pure sports car? The Vette is THE American sports car. There is no car that defines sports car for America more than the Vette.
If the definition of an "American" sports car is different than the one I used above (i.e. "lightweight"), then that's fine.

Honestly, though, why does that even matter? For me, the M3 is the car for me, whether or not it's labelled as a "sports car."

How the hell could somone say that the M3 is not a sports car?!!?

Doesn't the e30 M3 have the most Sports car wins in history???
Lots of sports cars have rear seats....911 anybody??

Anyway, I wouldn't waste money on a Corvette becuse to me they are very unattractive.

Originally posted by jar_e_d is
How the hell could somone say that the M3 is not a sports car?!!?

Doesn't the e30 M3 have the most Sports car wins in history???
If any generation of M3 can be called a sports car, it is E30. E36 is definitely more of a GT (grand tourer) than a sports car. E46 has some of the original spartan tastes back, but still no cigar (IMO).

Originally posted by Ron17
The M3 is not a pure sports car, by anyone's definition. It is a car that started a new class of cars -- the sport sedan. It was meant to be the all-around athlete... the decathalete, not the 100m sprinter.

The Vette is and has always been a pure sports car. Always will be. If you are looking to argue this point, please spare yourself the trouble.

And again, I'll reiterate that if you don't like Vettes for real reasons, that's fine. But this nonsense about cheap interiors (baseless claim, if you ask me) or only owned by mullet-wearers or "American crap" is just silly.

Glad to see there's some people on this forum that is a TRUE car enthusiast.

I've alway's held the position that a TRUE car enthusiast can appreciate all cars for what they do well.

I had a E46 M3 for 6 months before flipping it for the Z.
I just laugh when people spew their bias opinion on Vette's, which is further made comical because most of them have never driven one, let alone have an educated opinion. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by daihard
What's the point of making a point like that in a BMW forum? I can't speak for everyone else, but I am here to talk about BMWs (well M3's in particular), not any other marques. Sure, there may be cars out there that are arguably better than the Bimmers, but if I wanted to talk about the Vette, I would visit a Corvette forum. (Now I'm sure there is one, right?)

His point was the same as mine. There are some of us that enjoy both cars and understand what differences are of each. We do not like to see Corvettes being dumped on over and over again. If someone has a problem with the car(s) then fine, express them in a less ignorant fashion other then associating the car(s) with mullets and Coors light, or calling a German sports SEDAN a German sports car, and calling the Corvette an “American Piece of Sh*t.” Most of the people here have never driven the car… and if they have, they have never really DRIVEN the car.

And one more thing…

The Corvette has its own team; basically it’s its own division of GM. The car is just sold at Chevy dealers. BMW wasn’t that smart IMO when then started selling Mini’s at their own dealership. A dealer can not survive selling a single car line, and BMW will realize that sooner or later (Like GM did 50 years ago).

Have a good day, and the next time any of you are in MD, and see a woman driving a bright red C5, try some of your elitist snobbery on her. You'll see what the “big ass” of a C5 really looks like. :wave:

I prefer the BMW over the Vette because I want a high-revving, silky-smooth engine in my car. IMO, that's something BMW does a lot better than Chevrolet. That's not to say the Corvette is an "American POS," like someone believes some of us have stated. but given the choices, I'd choose a BMW. Everyone has his/her own choice, and that should be respected.

Having said that, I still don't understand why those of you Corvette fans come here and preach to us what you believe with regard to the Vette vs. M3? If I saw the M3 being bashed in a Corvette forum, I'd just shrug my shoulder and leave. I could easily tell myself (true or not) that they have no idea what they are talking about. Can you guys do the same?

The reason that I couldn't just ignore it is because of the ignorant responses. I really don't care if someone attacks the car, because you are right, most of the time they have no clue as to what they are babbling about. However, when a person insults a group of people that includes me, I take offense to that. So therefore I said something.

I was one of those people that was thinking about getting a C6 (I just sold my E36 M3). After seeing the new interior and exterior, I'm no longer in the market for a C6. I think they could have done a *lot* better job.

So after scratching the C6 off the list, I took Tlaselva's advice from another thread and took a test drive of a C5 Z06 along with drives of various other cars. 350Z, G35 Coupe, and E46 M3 to be exact. The Nissan twins were never really in contention but I just wanted to see how close they came to the E36 (they didn't).

Hands down the winner by a mile was the C5 Z06. The car is simply the next logical step for me from an E36 M3. It was light on it's feet (surprising considering the regular C5's that I've driven felt heavy), had intoxicating power, light but communicative clutch (especially vs the E46 M3), excellent brakes, nicely weighted steering, gobs of grip, by far the best ergonomics (!), and an unusually plush ride.

The E46 M3 was nice but it just didn't knock me out. I have to say that the engine was awesome. I think the people that got to own the 321hp Euro E36's had the very best of the three M3 eras.

Yes, the Corvette's interior is low budget and the whole Corvette old man cheeseball stigma isn't going away with guys painting flames on their cars and other goofy shit (while doing 35mph in their automatics :) ), but everything else about the car is so right that these shortcomings can be somewhat ignored.

I don't have brand loyalty. I just buy what I like. And it looks like I'll be picking up a Z06. If you haven't driven one, do yourself a favor and take one out for a spin. You might be pleasantly surprised. JMHO. :)

-Lux

Originally posted by daihard
If any generation of M3 can be called a sports car, it is E30. E36 is definitely more of a GT (grand tourer) than a sports car. E46 has some of the original spartan tastes back, but still no cigar (IMO).

Yeah? In what way exactly? :confused:

The navigation system? The hundreds of extra pounds of sound deadening material? Let's be honest, every generation of M3 since the first has been less and less 'spartan'. The high-reving motor is still there, but the packaging is pure luxury car.

The CSL is obviously an exception.

Originally posted by incubus
Yeah? In what way exactly? :confused:

The navigation system? The hundreds of extra pounds of sound deadening material? Let's be honest, every generation of M3 since the first has been less and less 'spartan'. The high-reving motor is still there, but the packaging is pure luxury car.
The engine on E46 is definitely more spartan than that of E36. I haven't had enough experience with E46 yet, but I had my '99 M3 for nearly 5 years and know the car fairly well. I tend to agree that E36 M3 may be a better handling machine, but E46 M3 has the kind of sheer power and push that you don't find in E36... I'd call that "spartan."

Now, I'm not sure about this, but did I offend you by saying E46 may be more spartan than E36, because you happen to have an E36? I hope not..

BTW, I don't have a moonroof or Nav on my car.

Originally posted by Lux Interior
I was one of those people that was thinking about getting a C6 (I just sold my E36 M3). After seeing the new interior and exterior, I'm no longer in the market for a C6. I think they could have done a *lot* better job.

So after scratching the C6 off the list, I took Tlaselva's advice from another thread and took a test drive of a C5 Z06 along with drives of various other cars. 350Z, G35 Coupe, and E46 M3 to be exact. The Nissan twins were never really in contention but I just wanted to see how close they came to the E36 (they didn't).

Hands down the winner by a mile was the C5 Z06. The car is simply the next logical step for me from an E36 M3. It was light on it's feet (surprising considering the regular C5's that I've driven felt heavy), had intoxicating power, light but communicative clutch (especially vs the E46 M3), excellent brakes, nicely weighted steering, gobs of grip, by far the best ergonomics (!), and an unusually plush ride.

The E46 M3 was nice but it just didn't knock me out. I have to say that the engine was awesome. I think the people that got to own the 321hp Euro E36's had the very best of the three M3 eras.

Yes, the Corvette's interior is low budget and the whole Corvette old man cheeseball stigma isn't going away with guys painting flames on their cars and other goofy shit (while doing 35mph in their automatics :) ), but everything else about the car is so right that these shortcomings can be somewhat ignored.

I don't have brand loyalty. I just buy what I like. And it looks like I'll be picking up a Z06. If you haven't driven one, do yourself a favor and take one out for a spin. You might be pleasantly surprised. JMHO. :)

-Lux

Good to hear that you found the Z06 to your liking.

It usually only takes an unbiased test drive to make people realize just how good the Z06 is. That's all it took for me.

I'm not a domestic fan.
My last 8 cars were all Imports.
But all biases aside, GM did an uncharacteristically fantastic job on the C5 Z06. :rryum:

Ironically, I also found the Z06's ride to be much more compliant than the M3. You would consider a car that can pull a 1G lateral on street tires to have a bone-jarring ride.

Hey LOOK:eyes1 ...A Corvette owner in the Bimmerforums! Why?...I love the BMW M series. Unlike "some" of you, I recognize both of these cars are mean, beautiful driving machines...I emphasize the word "some". The mullet thing is actually pretty funny and being from Colorado, I drink Coors Light! Hell yeah there is a corvette forum: www.corvetteforum.com Ummmmmm NO, they don't all look the same. We (Vette owners) are just as interested in modifying and customizing our cars as BMW owners. Now, I completely respect those of you who say it doesn't do it for me...that's fine. But some of these comments are way off the mark! Hey Ali...I have a Eurowerkz member posing in front of a Vette!!! http://www.covip.com
:D LOL LOL LOL LOL HA HA HA ...........Give respect!

:redspot :redspot CHECK THIS OUT:redspot :redspot

Funniest VIDEO ever! http://forums.corvetteforum.com/zerothread?id=744042

Originally posted by M Threesome
Did you read the article? The M3 outperforms it according to R&T. Maybe if I had a Mullet and drank Coors Light. You are a complete dumb $hit the C6 vette will out perform the current z06. There is no way a m3 will out perform a New C6 vette get real. The M3 is nice but it does not out perform a C6!

Originally posted by TheFuture
You are a complete dumb $hit the C6 vette will out perform the current z06. There is no way a m3 will out perform a New C6 vette get real. The M3 is nice but it does not out perform a C6!
And of course it's not all about raw performance, is it? Well not for me at least. Remember the comparison article Car and Driver ran back in 1997 or so? The E36 M3 was chosen as the best-handling car of all prices despite the fact that it was outperformed by most of its competitors, including a Corvette, an NS-X, a Ferrari and a Porsche.

OK, so, if you like carrying passengers, in comfort, get the BMW. If you want to to REALLY fast, get the Vette.

Originally posted by Heckler&Koch
OK, so, if you like carrying passengers, in comfort, get the BMW. If you want to to REALLY fast, get the Vette.
Or if you want to enjoy the sweet music played by the world's finest 6-cylinder engine, or if you want to appreciate the unparalleled handling... :D

Well, I only read a few of the earlier responses cuz I got tired of all the bashing.

Anyway, I'd consider getting the new Vette if I didn't need room for my son's car seat.

I think Vettes are sweet... man, nothing like the sound of that rumbly V8, especially with an aftermarket exhaust. I think it's definitely a "bang for your buck" sports car. I've had track time against Z06 Vettes... talk about a car that can eat up anything out there. Those cars have performance for days!

Don't get me wrong, I love my M3, but Vettes are sweet too.

Plain and simple, if the M3 wasn't a sports car then it wouldn't have the fucking M in front of the 3. The M which stands for Motorsport .

That aside you may all continue your comparison of the C6 and the M3...

Originally posted by m3some
Plain and simple, if the M3 wasn't a sports car then it wouldn't have the fucking M in front of the 3. The M which stands for Motorsport.
IMO, the word "sports car" isn't necessarily related to "(motor)sports." It may not even be related to performance, if you use the classic definition of a sports car -- a light-weight compact 2-seat roadster that's fun to drive. It's by that definition that I consider neither the M3 nor the Corvette a sports car. Heck, what's in a name? Whether a car is labelled a sports car has nothing to do with its true value.

So what your saying is the Lotus Elise is more of a sports car than the M5?

Originally posted by m3some
So what your saying is the Lotus Elise is more of a sports car than the M5?
Yes, if you agree with the definition of a sports car that I use above. Oh, forgot one element... it must be a RWD, I believe.

It must be RWD? Dude come on...there are plenty of AWD RACE cars.

Originally posted by m3some
It must be RWD? Dude come on...there are plenty of AWD RACE cars.
Well, really, whether or not a car is a "sports car" has nothing to do with motor racing. Maybe you can tell me what your definition of a sports car is?

Any car built with performance as a main criteria. The M3 was built to be driven fastm to be braked hard, and to handle tight corners. It has a "sporty" look, a "sporty" feel, and performance comparable to that even of many porshce's.

Originally posted by m3some
The M3 was built to be driven fastm to be braked hard, and to handle tight corners. It has a "sporty" look, a "sporty" feel, and performance comparable to that even of many porshce's.
I agree with all the above points. That's why the M3 is an excellent, arguably unparalleled sporty sedan/coupe. BTW, the March issue of Car and Driver calls it "essentially a sports car with a cramped back seat."

Then what the hell are we arguing about lol?

Originally posted by m3some
Then what the hell are we arguing about lol?
Notice the word "essentially"? (I even italicised it for you.) This means the M3 can be considered a sports car (even though it really isn't by definition).

So, I'm back, and have a dyno of my wife's C5 with an intake and exhaust. Got to love that torque curve.:wave:

Sorry, had to :stickoutt

Who's your daddy?

WHO'S YOUR DADDY!?!?!?!

Originally posted by vjlax18
Sorry, had to :stickoutt

Some of us can appreciate a torque curve as long and flat as the deck of an Aircraft Carrier..... :buttrock

I love the E46 M3 (looks, style, practicality) but its a little too overwieght and has a narrow powerband. Put a M5 engine into the M3 CSL and give it the balance of a E36 and Ill be the first on the list. For now Ill be waiting for the beast they call the C6 Z06 :clap:

I test drove a Z06 this weekend (the dealer gave me the choice of a C5 or a Z06, and guess what I chose... :)).

Here are my impressions that I don't normally hear when people talk about Vettes, as a long-time E36 M3 driver who spends a bit of time at the track, and who has driven several E46 M3's on occasion.

I was really impressed with the turn in... I guess we folks with Macpherson strut design suspensions forget what we're missing out on with double-A arm setups.

The rear end seemed more lively than I was expecting from a car of this caliber, though honestly, it was a bit hard to get a good sense of this on public roads with the salesman in the passenger seat. I think he was made a little nervous by my driving... oops
:az:

The steering rack was really tight (at least compared to my early build '95 M3, which has a fairly slow ratio among the M3's),

I found the ergonomics to be good, but not great. The wheel could be positioned up and down (not in and out) and the steering wheel seemed to line up with the driver's seat well. I felt like the driver's seat should have been able to go lower. I'm only 5'8" and I had a difficult time imagining how anyone over 6' could fit in this car, though I'm assuming they do.

As an aside, I do like to sit as low as possible (I guess I just get used to it from the track) and I felt very high in the passenger cabin (I can't imagine ever needing to use the sun visor). My M3 allows me to sit much closer to the floor pan. I would get a manual driver's seat, if this were an option on the Z06.

Ingress/egress was difficult to make graceful, but certainly manageable. The way I saw it, you were either going to totally wear out the side bolster with your elbow, lifting yourself out of the car, or make a habit of putting your hand on the sill, which might be dirty/wet when you need to use it.

The clutch has great feel to it... fairly short throw and very smooth engagement. The shifter is placed very conveniently close to the steering wheel, though I did find the throw surprisingly long for a purpose-built sports car. It's definitely a longer throw than my stock E36 M3 by at least an inch. That took some getting used to. It seemed to be a very nice transmission, you could barely even feel the synchros working when you pushed it into first while rolling to a stop at a light.

Instrumentation is excellent (content wise) though I really don't like the red/blue illumination. Red or orange is functional as it's the lowest wave length light (thus easiest on the eyes) and I wish this would just be a standard color on all sports cars.

The heads up display is very cool -- BMW should be embarassed they don't have this feature by now. Although I really wish again it were red. I see ghosting when driving at night and then looking at something else (i.e. like seeing spots after staring at a bright light).

As for the power and the torque, well... there's not much left unsaid in that department. I was giggling uncontrollably after each stab on the throttle. Throttle response was decent but not great. I guess I'm spoiled rotton on my cable-driven Euro 3.2 liter. (The Vette has both drive-by-wire and 1 throttle body).

But, really..... the power... my God. A look at a few Corvette forums has given me the impression that ~450 rwhp is not unreasonable with about $10k in modifications (full exhaust from headers, intake, bigger fuel injectors, worked heads, bored throttle body, cams, and 1 or 2 other tweaks). 450 rwhp, N/A!!!! I mean, my gawd, man.... imagine what a man could do with 450 N/A rwhp...

Really, the thought of that alone has kept me up the last few nights :).

Overall my impression was this car was meant to be driven hard. Under agressive driving, the suspension really comes alive and you get tons of feedback from the wheel and the car. I've never had the privilege of driving a 911, although I've heard it shares this sort of characteristic.

Around town and sitting at traffic lights, the Vette feels large, and heavy. The visibility through the mirrors is rather poor, and I think that contributed to my feeling that I was piloting a big, wide car around, uncertain of where it ended, or where my blind spots were.

You also tend to notice the little rattles and squeaks more when going slow (this car had 70 miles on it). Even the pop-up headlights seemed to be shaking around, wwaaaay out there past the hood housing that beautiful V8. My door pull sticks out an inch or so from the surround, unlike the passenger door. I noticed the same thing on another showroom car, but this time it was the passenger side.

The car seemed to be a bit overdamped, but I think that is just compared to my H&R coilover suspension, which I will still attest rides nicer than the *stock* E36 M3 suspension. E46 M3 too. The ride quality was certainly acceptable.

I didn't really get a chance to work the brakes, but my biggest gripe about them (and perhaps the car) is that the pedals have a horrible layout for heel-and-toe. The brake pedal must have been a good 3 inches above the gas pedal, and so much as resting my foot on the brake caused the car to nearly come to a stop.

In fairness, I'm comparing this against my 90k mile M3 with a master cylinder that's seen a fair amount of use. Really, I'd be curious to hear what other Vette owners do to heel-and-toe in this car, as I was clearly lost for a solution, and I'm sure there must be one out there. I really have no idea how I'm supposed to modulate brake pressure for normal street driving either. The pedal was really that light.

So, 'dems my impressions of the Z06. Would I buy it? I'm certainly considering it, and right now Z06's can be had new on the lot for about $44k and change, including manufacturer rebate, which is certainly influencing my decision. I was surprised to hear insurance is only a $500 or so more a year for the Z06 over my 10-year-old M3.

Of course, there are only 4 STINKIN' COLORS to choose from!! Not to sound like a BMW snob, but I guess I really take for granted the number and quality of the paint choices we have with BMW.

The Z06 is offered in:
A) black (cleaning nightmare)
B) silver (boring)
C) yellow (been there, done that)
D) red, 2 shades (I can't afford the tickets)

In fairness, there's also a commemorative blue, with a racing stripe, but it's going for MSRP - $1000 (i.e. $7k more), and I don't want a stripe.

I really, really wish they offered the "spiral gray" color of the normal Corvettes, which is much like a gun metal or BMW "steel gray" color, but alas.

So, I would theoretically have to decide between the maintenence of black or the banality of silver (no offense to silver folks).

If I did buy a Z06, I think I would need to do a few interior mods: add some seat heaters, change the dashboard lighting to red or orange and see what sort of job it would be to change the heads up display to be red/orange as well (I'm guessing this is impossible). Maybe see if there are smaller steering wheels with thumb gribs, though I wouldn't want to loose the airbag, so there's probably not much I can do there.

Then, after getting the car broken in, I'd get it to the track and learn how to drive it. And if I decide 405 hp isn't enough, it's good to know there's plenty of room for improvement :).

- John
'95 M3 with S50B32 "Euro" motor

I can't figure out how to heal-toe with the C5 either... but I think with a matching metal gas pedal, it will raise it up a bit. Also, I found that I can see better with the vette mirrors verse the m3, but that's everyone's oppinion. And I found that I can sit way lower in the C5 then I can in my M3. :dunno:

John,

Nice write-up. Your conclusion is pretty much the same as mine. My non-enthusiast friends think I'm crazy for thinking about a Z06. But once you drive one you'll understand. :)

The only 2 things I don't agree with you are the seating ergo and the shifter. I thought the seating positon was perfect; especially because the wheel tilts properly vs my non-tilting '95 M3. Even on the E46 cars the wheel doesn't tilt enough to my liking. Now the seats themselves could be much better. The shifter throws felt about the same distance as my M3. However, it was a lot more mechanical/notchy vs the syrupy feel in the M3.

Where are you located in the Bay Area? Have you talked numbers with some of the dealers? I've been holding out for even greater deals because there sure seems to be an overstock of Vettes. I know Courtesy Chevrolet in SJ has quite a few in stock. You might also want to check dealers down in SoCal. They always seem to be more willing to deal than Bay Area dealers.


-Lux

There has to be an aftermarket bumper in the works for the C6 that would resemble the 360's. I'd pick up a C6 Z06 with a Modena style front bumper.

Originally posted by vjlax18
I can't figure out how to heal-toe with the C5 either... but I think with a matching metal gas pedal, it will raise it up a bit.

Hmm, I see what you're saying, but I'm thinking that would have to be one mighty fat gas pedal -- i really wasn't even close to being able to touch the gas with my right side of my foot. Maybe someone makes a product like that?

But it was really more a problem of brake modulation. I could see myself really twisting my foot around like you need to do on the E39, for those of you that may have driven one, but there was just no way I could coordinate myself to do it without touching the brakes too hard.

Maybe the combination of a pedal extension and learning to be much, much gentler with the pedals would do the trick. Or maybe the brakes need to "break in" a bit... I don't know. They just seem to be over boosted in my opinion.

Also, I found that I can see better with the vette mirrors verse the m3, but that's everyone's oppinion.

Full disclosure: I do have the European spec convex glass sideview mirrors in my car, which expand the viewable area considerably.

I wonder if GM makes such a mirror for their non-US destined cars.... I think it would make a huge difference.

I really needed to lean very far forward to get a good idea of what was in my blind spots.

And I found that I can sit way lower in the C5 then I can in my M3. :dunno:

weird.... maybe it's just because the A pillar and roofline are so low, I feel like I'm sitting higher. I felt like I wanted to be lower, at any rate.

Thanks for the feedback....

- John

Originally posted by Lux Interior
The only 2 things I don't agree with you are the seating ergo and the shifter. I thought the seating positon was perfect; especially because the wheel tilts properly vs my non-tilting '95 M3. Even on the E46 cars the wheel doesn't tilt enough to my liking. Now the seats themselves could be much better. The shifter throws felt about the same distance as my M3. However, it was a lot more mechanical/notchy vs the syrupy feel in the M3.


I did think the tilt was good, however I have a tilting wheel in my '95 M3, so I may be spoiled.

I felt that the Corvette seats were fine, but the true acid test is a long car trip, not a 10 minute test drive. The E36 Vaders aren't that hot anyway, for long drives... Lateral grip and comfort seem to be at odds. My old Volvo 940 turbo wagon still has the most comfortable car seats I've ever ridden in...

As for the shifter, it was very mechanical, but it was also a brand new car. I think having the shifter so close to the wheel made the throw *seem* longer than it is.

Try bending your wrist from a distance, and then again with your elbow tucked close by your side. Notice it's much more uncomfortable the second way, and that may give me the impression that the throw was longer.

I haven't measured either throw so I have no numbers to compare, but it really felt like I had to move my elbow back a considerably far distance to fully engage second gear.



Where are you located in the Bay Area? Have you talked numbers with some of the dealers? I've been holding out for even greater deals because there sure seems to be an overstock of Vettes. I know Courtesy Chevrolet in SJ has quite a few in stock. You might also want to check dealers down in SoCal. They always seem to be more willing to deal than Bay Area dealers.


I'm in Palo Alto, and went to Anderson Chevrolet in Menlo Park, but I haven't talked numbers with my sales guy there yet.

They salesmen all keep saying "it's a great time to buy" but no one has actually made any offers yet, which is making me sort of nervous. I don't want to be the first person to bring up price (first rule of negotiation for me... perhaps they were taught the same rule).

I'll see what they offer me, and if it's typical Silicon Valley inflated prices, I'll take my business elsewhere. Assuming these cars are 50-state compliant, there are tons of dealers in the midwest offering $44k out the door. Even shipping in an inclosed trailer would not significantly offset the savings if Anderson isn't willing to play ball.

Thanks for the tips on other Cali dealers. That may be a more practical approach.

- John