2.9 stroker

[///M4life]

i wanted to purchase a m50 and open her up and rip out the crank and drop in an m3 crank. I was trying to turn her into an s50 wannabe. what else would i need to accomplish to make her a 2.9 stroker. Ie maybe m3 cams, rods, pistons. just wanted to know if anyone has ever done this before cuz im interested in doing this!!!:buttrock

[///M3CosmosJoe]

Oh, I dunno ......over sized pistons, machining the head, machining the block to fit the new pistons, valves, springs, retainers would be a good idea and a whole bunch of other stuff. Why not just spend the $5k and drop an M3 motor in? It'll be WAY faster and probably cheaper in the long run. :)

[///M4life]

i was told if i just drop in a m3 crank and rods and maybe cams i would be good to go! i hope hes right. i know there is someone out there that has done this before. thanks for the info!!

[///M4life]

if i wanted to drop this stuff into an m50 92 non vanos will my theory still hold up. could i do the swap into an m50 non vanos or does the car have to be vanos!!

[SR20Fastback]

you can use your non vanos, but you need to do something different for cams. The M3 cams won't work, take your intake cam and swap it to the exhaust side. Then get a new intake cam from Shrick or someone.

[NegativeCambre]

Originally posted by ///M3CosmosJoe
Oh, I dunno ......over sized pistons, machining the head, machining the block to fit the new pistons, valves, springs, retainers would be a good idea and a whole bunch of other stuff. Why not just spend the $5k and drop an M3 motor in? It'll be WAY faster and probably cheaper in the long run. :)

You don't know much about the 2.9l conversion, do ya? Its actually been dynoed to be a bit more powerful then the stock S50, mainly because of a higher C/R. There is an AA 2.9l dyno running around that shows the 2.9l actually having a tick more torque then the S50. But also, the AA kit is a bit more advanced then the standard 2.9l build, so thats kind of useless anyways.

All that is really required is the S52 crank, everything else can be utilized. M3 cams and custom software are sure to help a bit though.

Steve

[///M4life]

whyd o i need an s52 crank. can you give me a link to aa kit cuz i cant seem to find it. thanks!!

[toddman35]

Steve, I've always been under the impression that you need m3 rods in combo with the m3 crank for the 2.9. Correct me if I'm wrong however.

AA's link is www.activeautowerke.com.

[NegativeCambre]

Originally posted by toddman35
Steve, I've always been under the impression that you need m3 rods in combo with the m3 crank for the 2.9. Correct me if I'm wrong however.

AA's link is www.activeautowerke.com.

Toddman, thats what I thought too. Lately I've been hearing you are fine with just the crank! Which would be neat, but I'm still skeptical. Seems like you would need new rods too.

Steve

[toddman35]

Originally posted by StevenRyan
Toddman, thats what I thought too. Lately I've been hearing you are fine with just the crank! Which would be neat, but I'm still skeptical. Seems like you would need new rods too.

Steve

When I was down at AA a year ago, I talked to them about it, and IIRC they said that you needed the rods also. I don't know how well my memory is serving me though. Does anyone have the rod specs for the s50, m50, s52, and m52?

-Todd

[///M4life]

well i went to aa link but i cant find any info on the necessities to make this all happen. well i guess for safe measures im going to just drop the m3 crank and m3 rods in there. hopefully that will do it. do i need computer reprogramming or can i just go with a chip like a jc or dinan one. thanks for all the info guys it makes it easier to guess at what im doing. ahhaha!!

[toddman35]

Shoot an email over to the guys at AA regarding it. I know they have custom software for that application. They should also be able to tell you if you need the rods.

[///M4life]

ok sweet thanks again for all the help!

[outkastaliens]

I have a 3.0 crank if anyone is interested.

[///M4life]

how much for the crank. no joke. let me know if possible to purchase!

[outkastaliens]

$450 for the crank. If you want cams and crank, $700

[Serious]

ive been thinking about doing this for a while now and im pretty sure that your going to run into some big problems if you swap the m3 crank and rods. i believe that the m50 pistons are taller that the s50 pistons. so if you swap longer rods and taller pistons it could definetly end up in bad result.

[toddman35]

I sent an email to AA regarding the stroker. I'll post the responce once I get one.

[///M4life]

sweet thanks!!!

[toddman35]

I have yet to hear from AA regarding the stroker. :dunno

I'll let you guys know when I hear from them, hopefully sooner rather than later.

[millm3]

Originally posted by toddman35
Shoot an email over to the guys at AA regarding it. I know they have custom software for that application. They should also be able to tell you if you need the rods.

you defintely need the rods, otherwise the pistons would collide with the head. And that's probably not what you were looking for :nono

[m3ltw98]

You need the M3 rods to do the 2.9 stroker. Were doing this to our BMWCCA club racer w/ crazy compression (13:1) and lightened internals. All work is being done by Chuck Stickley. Should be a beast when finished. He said hes gonna use M3 crank, M3 connecting rods, custom pistons. Of course you need to bore the block out but a machine shop will handle that. Hope this helps. Later

[Alex McHenry]

We offer a stroker package in both 2.9 and 3.1L formats for the M50 24V. There are even some fun cam setups on a budget for the non-vanos guys. Please shoot us an e-mail if interested in more info!

[Daved]

What does the stroker kit for the M50 consist of?

[Alex McHenry]

It is available as a bottom kit with various configurations, but primarily the crankshaft, custom forged pistons, wrist pins, rod and main bearings, and rings. Rods would be available, but are not necessary.

[///M4life]

can you give me alink so i can check out the package and or your email address so you can help me out through all this. this package is it available for the non vanos people tooo. cuz i mightjust do this in a 92 325i m50!!

[StouffvilleZ3]

I'd suggest shot peened rods and a stronger set of valve springs. You may as well set it up to rev if you're going to get into the bottom end like this.

[NLSchien]

We are Precision Performance Services Inc., owned and operated by Pete McHenry. Website is under construction, but you can reach us in the shop at (336)-761-0643 10-5 M-F EST. Or email me at mchewa0@wfu.edu

You can lighten the rods some, and balance to a closer tolerance. The valvetrain in the non-M motor is heavier due to the larger tappets and dual-springs, but the dual springs are stiffer than the conical M3 single springs, so upgrading valve springs is not necessary even with a hotter cam. Track motor is a different ball game.

[cosmosm3]

I have a set of 98 M3 OEM connecting rods for sale and cams. 24K miles. Anyone interested?:buttrock

[JazzM]

I'm looking for an M3 crank (e36 3.2L US spec) in good shape :)

pm me or email tom@fieldofwebs.com

Thanks,


T.

[millm3]

Hi,

I found some infos about stroking a M50B25/M50B25TU.

3.0l Stroker
---------------

M50B25:
bore: 84 mm
stroke: 75 mm
compression ratio: 10 , (M50TU : 10.5)
rod length: 135, (M50B25TU:140 mm)

M54B30:
bore: 84 mm
stroke: 89.6 mm
compression ratio: 10.2
rod length: 135 mm

You can build a M50 3.0l stroker motor by using:
- crank M54B30
- rods 135 mm
- pistonsM54B30 .
Maybe the crank case has to be modified to clear the higher stroke crank.


2.8l Stroker
---------------
for M50B25 engine
- crank M52B28
- rods M20B20/23 (130 mm)
- pistons M50B25 (non-Vanos)

or
- crank, from M52B28
- rods 135 mm
- pistons M52B28

or
- crank, from M52B28
- rods 135 mm
-pistons M50B25TU , pistons must be modified to decrease compression

rod lengths:
M50B25TU: 140 mm
M50B25: 135 mm (non VANOS engine)
M52B25: 135 mm
M52B28: 135 mm
M54B30: 135 mm
M20B20: 130 mm
M20B23: 130 mm
M20B25: 135 mm
M20B27: 130 mm

more infos here (german web page):
http://www.behindmatrix.com/e30/fotost/f01140/f01140.htm

[AvusMPower]

thanks for the quality info

[AvusMPower]

do you happen to know the rod lengths for the s50/s52's?

[E30 Stu]

135.

[t25bimmer]

so can i use regular 325 non vanos pistons with s50 rods and crank
thanks

[JLC325i]

Pete made me a 3.2 liter from the m50... compression 10.8:1
will dyno it in a month when broken in.

[///M3///M5]

If you need some M3 cams i am selling mine...///M4life

[Jounin]

So:


M50B25-
Bore: 84
Stroke: 75
Rod Length: 135
R/S: 1.8
Compression height: Y?
Deck height: X?

M54B30-
Bore: 84
Stroke: 89.6
Rod Length: 135
R/S: 1.51
Compression height: Z?
Deck height: X?

S50B30-
Bore: 86
Stroke: 85.5
Rod Length: 135
R/S: 1.58
Compression height: W?
Deck height: H?


We can assume then that the M50 and M54 have the same deck height then if a 3.0 M50 is derived by swapping everything plus pistons from M54?

PIC BELOW (M54B30 left / M50B25 right)

Its also observed that the R/S ratio dramatically decreases with the 3.0, increasing cylinder side wall thrust loadings and increased piston speeds.

I guess the next question then using the pragmatic model is what are W and H of the S50? Or in other words which pistons are required in the M50 block with an S50 crank if standard length 135mm rods are used? Does the S50 use a taller deck height or does it happen to be the same as the M50(4)?

[t25bimmer]

so can a non vanos engine use regular 325 84mm pistons with s50 crank and rods or do i even need the s50 rods can i use the 325 if both are the same length

thanks everyone who anwsers

[Carrerax]

Ok, so now Im going to throw a monkey wrench in here. If I start out with a 2.8 block, and 3.0 rods and 3.0 crank, Will it be a 2.9 also and what pistons should be used?

[Def]

Its also observed that the R/S ratio dramatically decreases with the 3.0, increasing cylinder side wall thrust loadings and increased piston speeds.



These hydraulic lifter engines can't rev near high enough to where R/S ratio plays a large enough role to be a concern. 1.51 isn't all that "bad" of a ratio anyway, and in fact I'd say it's almost a good thing since about 7k RPM is the max the engine will likely see. The faster acceleration of the piston from TDC and BDC will help make the engine torquier and get flow velocities higher in the head ports sooner in the RPM band. It isn't a huge difference, but it all adds up.

Honda mills can rev to 9,500 RPM day in and day out with R/S ratios of 1.54 and be just dandy. They also make power up to redline as well.

[articblue92]

I have a 92 non vanos engine for sale. I was going to do this and drop it in my 92 325is. Decided to pay off some debit and purchace a house instead. If you are interested the engine is complete from throttle body to flywheel with all the belt driven units and a wireing harness. Right now it is just taking up space in my shop. It is on a pallet and shrinkwraped ready to go. PM me if anyone is interested I am looking to get $500 for it.

Jim

[t25bimmer]

so can a non vanos engine use regular 325 84mm pistons with s50 crank and rods or do i even need the s50 rods can i use the 325 if both are the same length

thanks everyone who anwsers

[t25bimmer]

so can a non vanos engine use regular 325 84mm pistons with s50 crank and rods or do i even need the s50 rods can i use the 325 if both are the same length

thanks everyone who anwsers

[Jounin]

Originally posted by Carrerax
Ok, so now Im going to throw a monkey wrench in here. If I start out with a 2.8 block, and 3.0 rods and 3.0 crank, Will it be a 2.9 also and what pistons should be used?

It seems that much of the rod lengths (M50B25(nonvanos), M52B28, M54B30, S50B30) are 135mm(and have the same crank end bore+width and piston end bore+width) and are thusly interchangeable(?), although materials and structural integrity probably vary. Thusly if you are using the 330 crank, then the 330 pistons should be used. If you are using the S50 crank, then you should use the S50 pistons and bore out the block(assuming that the S50 deck height is the same as the M50(2)(4)). If the S50 has a taller/shorter deck height, then the delta will have to be applied/removed to the compression height of the piston, which could possibly afford the use of one of the OEM 84mm BMW pieces.


Originally posted by Def
1.51 isn't all that "bad" of a ratio anyway, and in fact I'd say it's almost a good thing since about 7k RPM is the max the engine will likely see.

That’s interesting. I wonder then what the various pistons look like then as far as compression/oil ring spacing and wrist pin/oil ring dimensions in relation to each other. I also wonder what the internal friction losses look like on all of the motors, although I would infer that those figures in no way outweigh the advantages of increased torque via the longer lever arm of lengthened stroke.

[Jounin]

Originally posted by t25bimmer
so can a non vanos engine use regular 325 84mm pistons with s50 crank and rods or do i even need the s50 rods can i use the 325 if both are the same length

thanks everyone who anwsers

M50B25 rods are 135mm and M50B24TU rods are 140mm, leading me to infer that the compression height of the vanos-2.5's pistons is 5mm shorter. So if by regular 325 84mm pistons you mean non-vanos then 135mm rods will be the ticket if my assumptions of the S50 block dimensions are correct. If by 'regular 325' you mean the vanos motor, then 140mm rods would have to be used, again assuming all else is correct.

**Another thing to consider between the 135mm rods is a possibility of strength differences between the M-series and S-series units.

[t25bimmer]

so on a non vanos 92 i can use the s50 crank and rods with the non vanos 84mm piston
is this correct, will the valves touch
you people are great thanks i need to build my engine now

[Jounin]

Originally posted by t25bimmer
so on a non vanos 92 i can use the s50 crank and rods with the non vanos 84mm piston
is this correct, will the valves touch
you people are great thanks i need to build my engine now

If you use that configuration then the pistons will stick out above the deck 11mm at TDC.

You could use M52B28 pistons which would only protrude 2mm(which could possibly be milled off the quench pads) which would also increase your C/R some. Conversely you could use M52B30 pistons which would at TDC be 3.6mm under deck height (and I seriously doubt its considered good practice to mill that much material off the deck) and just live with the lower C/R and reduced quench effectiveness. Or even another possible combination would be to use the M52B30 pistons with the 140mm vanos rods, which would make the pistons protrude 1.4mm which would probably be a little easier to mill off, and you would have the benefit of a longer rod and a more favorable R/S ratio. Realize though that this all purely conjecture and that I have no conception of compression ring placement or valve relief depth of any of the stock BMW pistons, so take it all with a grain of salt.

Really the best solution would probably be to start with an M52B30 piston, and redesign the top of it (compression height, ring packaging, dome shape, valve relief’s) to work with a 140mm rod in the M50 deck, and then have a set forged by a company that takes small orders.

[t25bimmer]

so on a non vanos 92 i can use the s50 crank and rods with the non vanos 84mm piston WITHOUT MODIFICATION
YES OR NO, IS ALL I WANT THANKS
is this correct, will the valves touch
you people are great thanks i need to build my engine now

SO IS IT YES OR IS IT NO??????????

[Jounin]

Originally posted by t25bimmer
so on a non vanos 92 i can use the s50 crank and rods with the non vanos 84mm piston WITHOUT MODIFICATION
YES OR NO, IS ALL I WANT THANKS
is this correct, will the valves touch
you people are great thanks i need to build my engine now

SO IS IT YES OR IS IT NO??????????

Well if the piston would stick up nearly half an inch above the deck at TDC as illustrated, does it sound like it’s a combination that would work?

[bigjetmech]

can the 2.5 block be stroked to a 2.9?
How much would something like this cost if I gave my 2.5 to a pro?

[Bimmer Pilot]

Anyone familiar with this stroker kit?
Hiop Racing (http://www.hioprace-tec.com/eng/index.html)

[Prestige329i]

I installed custom grounded cams, injectors and Hfm and this is the power my car is now putting out. Remember this is on a mustang dyno with 18" wheels. If I put on 17's I will break 250whp. Compression is 11.5:1 on pump gas (93 octane).

[ososinsk]

Exactly what i was looking for, thanks for the dyno chart. These are the same mods i'm putting in an m50 e30.

[old skool]

There are some good threads on this in the E36 forum if you do a search.

[old skool]

I installed custom grounded cams, injectors and Hfm and this is the power my car is now putting out. Remember this is on a mustang dyno with 18" wheels. If I put on 17's I will break 250whp. Compression is 11.5:1 on pump gas (93 octane).

Can you give us some more complete info on your engine setup?

[ososinsk]

I'm assuming he has custom software from somewhere.. 11.5 compression is a lot, and while doing this project, i decided to use a 120 mil multi layer steel head gasket, which is 3.05mm thick compared to the stock 1.75.

This extra 1.3mm, or 1.1 extra for me since i had 0.2mm shaved off the head, adds volume to the top of the cylinder, dropping the compression ratio from 11.5 to 11.0. I decided to do this to make the engine more reliable, and so that i can use the s50 506 ecu, with an m3 dinan chip. I was worried about pinging, so it's good to hear 93 octane is working for you at 11.5.

Besides the stroker setup, i have s50 cams and some minor head work. The overall cost was about the same as buying an s50, and should put out a little more hp, but gives me a completely rebuilt engine. I'll let you know how it drives, SOON :-D
Should be done in about a week i think...

[ososinsk]

Actually... prestige, what software are you running? and do you know the lift and duration of the cams you are using?

[fulingbusen]

Can anyone tell me what compression height m52b28 pistons have?

[sfuller]

What type of horse power could you get from this stroker in the non vanos if you ported and polished the head and used schrick cams

[atlantisvip]

What type of horse power could you get from this stroker in the non vanos if you ported and polished the head and used schrick cams

Bumping this for answer.

[art@rmeuropean]

Just do a high compression 2.8L. It is way cheaper because you use a 2.8L crank with 2.8L rods and 2.5L M50 pistons. You get an 84mm bore with 84mm stroke and something like 11.25:1 compression. With M3 cams the engine makes excellent power and revs like crazy. I built one for a customer a few years ago and every time I drive his car I just can't believe how fast that engine revs and how great it sounds.

[NHbmw325I]

someone did this in the e36 section. Just have to search for it, I think it was a while ago.

[ososinsk]

I have one. A few loose ends to tie up, but I'm pretty happy with it.

[alexbaby88]

I have one. A few loose ends to tie up, but I'm pretty happy with it.

Can you tell us what you did and what parts you used?

Bumping for update!

[yeomgon]

a stroker. wow.

[bimmermane30]

This needs some bumpage.

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff266/oughtumn/Bump.jpg