I was at Roebling Road Yesterday for a little test session before I race ther in Dec. Well going into turn 2 I feel a quick vibration and the BOOM! All five wheel studs broke clean off and the wheel goes flying off into the grass. The car slammed down onto the front bumper and fender, and I fighttin to keep the one front wheel I have left straight. I put both feet and held on for the ride. I went off a 100ft and stopped about 50ft from hitting the embankment. It could have been worse. For those of you that have been to Roebling, you know I got lucky it broke in turn 2 and not turn 1, that would have been really ugly considering my car is over a 135mph before braking for turn 1. Overall the damage isn't that bad. All cosmetic as I didn't damage anything underneath. heres a link to the pictures of the damage:
http://www.webphotos.com/view_photo.asp?mi=1&smi=1&a=65421&p=2832078
http://www.webphotos.com/view_photo.asp?mi=1&smi=1&a=65421&p=2832077
http://www.webphotos.com/view_photo.asp?mi=1&smi=1&a=65421&p=2832079

link isnt workin

try it now

it works....dang

Wow... thats pretty scary. :eek:

What brand wheel studs were you using? How long had they been on the car?

i got them trom turner. They had been on the car for about 6 months.

My guess is they were either put on with impact gun and overtightened, or they were overtorqued...

Otherwise it'd be weird for all 5 to break..

im amazed that the exterior damage wasnt THAT bad.

You cars amazing, and it sucks that shit breaks but i guess thats RACING for ya.

who installed the studs for you?

The problem isn't with the studs, it's with the rims. New Koseis are notorious for this problem. You need to re-torque after every session until all of the paint in the holes wear off.

Qwick - Do the Kosei's still use that plastic centering ring? Maybe the fact that they aren't hubcentric put too much stress on the studs which are supposed to simply hold the wheel onto the hub ring?

on a side note how do you like the Kosei's ?

The problem is not wheels. The Kosei are hubcentric. Maybe the old ones weren't but the ones I have are.

The Koseis (at least the Tire Rack re-released batch from last spring) are bored for the E36 without need for hubcentric rings.

Any yes, I too have found that the paint in the lugnut contact area prevents a lasting torque setting. Last spring, I assumed it had something to do with the new steel nuts I was using this season vs the tckline aluminum nuts from last season. Most of the paint is gone now, so no longer having any problems with unstable torque settings.

Assuming your wheels were newer, you might have had a premature loosening of your lugnuts, causing movement and eventual sheering of your studs, though you would think that the vibration from the loose lugnuts would give you ample warning before the catastrophic failure of all five studs . . . .

Sorry to hear about your accident, glad to hear that you are ok.

ben

As qwickm3 mentioned, he felt a brief vibration before the wheel came off. This seems consistent with the lugnuts loosening. If the studs sheered of their own accord, you wouldn't think he'd have felt any vibration prior to the failure.

This happened to a chapter member out here. Same wheels, different car, the plastic centering ring was to blame. It melted with brake heat ......

After this happened, did you check the torque on the remaining wheels? Just curious how much torque they lost (or how much they rotated when you retorqued them).

Chris

Sounds like you definitely need to take a dremel tool to the paint on the lug nut contact area.

I hadn't heard of the new Kosei's being hubcentric. A guy with an E30 came looking for one of the plastic centering rings at the last VIR club race. His had broke. When I looked at what it was, I was in shock that such a bush league "fix" was what Kosei was sending folks for BMW's. All the plastic ring served to do was center the wheel...there's no way it could been strong enough to make the wheels truly hubcentric. Glad to hear Kosei got their act together now!

Originally posted by BMWRacerITS
Sounds like you definitely need to take a dremel tool to the paint on the lug nut contact area.

I don't know that folks need to be that drastic to start hacking away at their new koseis-- The more I think about it, the more I am not sure that it is only the paint to blame. Could it be that the koseis finally compress down to a stable level by the time that the paint is worn off the contact area?

Either way, I think the point that needs to be made, especially to those who are new to motorsports (not you Bryan), is that ALL new cast aluminum (i.e. not forged) wheels will compress a bit as you break them in and thus the lugs/nuts will come somewhat loose with use. It is very important with any new wheel set, especially when used at the track, to be diligent with rechecking your lug torque settings often to keep on top of this until they stablize.

The koseis are maybe just a bit more so than others . . . . mine never loosened to a degree I thought was dangerous, but maybe I was lucky. I don't know if any of this conversation is relevent to why quickM3 lost his wheel. How old was your set of Koseis? Any paint left on your lug contact areas?

I think it's largely the paint. People who remove the paint beforehand don't report the problems.

They're great rims and I use them on my Miata, and though I didn't remove the paint, I'm careful to retorque. At a recent event, someone came up to me while I was torquing and asked what I was doing. I mentioned the problem with new Koseis and he said that he was on a set of brand new Koseis himself. He later came back to thank me because he found several of his lugs were finger loose. Other folks I know haven't been so lucky. I was at Sears Point when someone crashed in 10 because a brand new Kosei flew off.

Originally posted by BMWRacerITS
Sounds like you definitely need to take a dremel tool to the paint on the lug nut contact area.

FWIW, the Honda camp universally recommends sanding off the paint on the lug nut contact area before use.

It is common to have lugnuts back off on Kosei's that still have the paint intact.

Originally posted by qwickm3
It could have been worse. For those of you that have been to Roebling, you know I got lucky it broke in turn 2 and not turn 1, that would have been really ugly considering my car is over a 135mph before braking for turn 1.



Turn 12 at Atlanta would have been ugly, as well.

I run Kosei's, you need to re-torque them after every session, I also re-torque them during my 5 min pit stop during the enduro.

Originally posted by benaj
I don't know that folks need to be that drastic to start hacking away at their new koseis--

It's not really hacking. All you need to do is stick a wire brush attachment onto the dremel and knock the paint off in the lug nut seats. It happens naturally anyway as you torque the nuts on and off.

When it comes to making sure that the wheel stays on the car, I don't think it's all that "drastic". ;)

Well heres the thing guys. The session before the incident I felt a vibration so I came in and retorqued the lugs right then, while they were still hot, which could be part of the problem as it may have strecthed the lugs. Who knows, but I will be replacing all of the studs just to be safe.

Were any of the nuts noticeably loose when you retorqued them?

Originally posted by Young
Other folks I know haven't been so lucky. I was at Sears Point when someone crashed in 10 because a brand new Kosei flew off.

That was me whose Kosei flew off in T10, but I was lucky since it was a cool down lap. I was going around 40mph through 10, felt and heard the vibration and about 2 seconds later, bam! I see my wheel go bouncing off and I ended up grinding a good chunk of my front control arm and damaging my fender just like in those pictures. Anyway, I'll be forever known as the dude who lost his wheel.

I do notice a pattern with my lugs. I'll mount my Koseis at the track in the morning and torque them. I'll go out for a session and come back and they have lost a little bit of torque so I retorque them. Then for the rest of the day, they seem to hold torque just fine. Go figure.

Originally posted by BMWRacerITS
When it comes to making sure that the wheel stays on the car, I don't think it's all that "drastic". ;)

Bryan, it is more of the fact that I could see some of the youngin's out there in internet-land reading this post and then pulling their dremels out with the diamond blade tip and grinding the shit out of the cone seats. This kind of effort would for sure result in a deformed cone seat that would make properly torquing down the lugs or lug nuts difficult, now resulting in wheels falling off at the track, but for a different reason. Wire brushes or sand paper is a different matter.

That was more of where my comment was coming from.

Hey, and to quickm3, torquing lugs strait off the track while hot definately stretches them, quite possibly to cause failure in the near future. I found this out personally myself. Curiously, was it all four wheels that you retorqued hot, or just the one that failed?

Ben

qwickm3 i recomend tc kline studs there realy beefy and my dragracing friends realy liked them alot ecpecialy the nascar rounded edge, ive never had a problem with eather of my sets of kosies knock on wood

yeah I retourqed all of them while hot, and for that reason I have 20 new ones on order just to be safe

oh man..i just bought koseis too...

would you guys say they're unsafe then? I'll remember to retorque them...but qwickm3 re-tightened them before as well and it still flew off....

They're not unsafe if you take the appropriate precautions. Just wait until they're cooled off before you retorque and you should be fine. Better yet, dremel off the paint in the lug holes.

Originally posted by Young
Better yet, dremel off the paint in the lug holes.

Personally, I would recommend using sand paper to sand off the paint in the contact area.

It will take longer than using a dremel, but there is less chance of changing the shape of the contact area when sanding by hand as opposed to using a dremel.

Tim "the Toolman" Taylor says you are a pansy Reid. ;)

I say break out the die grinder!!

Could you re-drill the Kosei's to fit a 6-lug tahoe?

Forget the Tahoe - I've just seen an eighteen wheeler out on 66 on Koseis.

The guy was pulled on thr right side, and he was holding a torque wrench going at the 17th wheel... things were pretty sweaty out there.
:)


Apart from the horror situation above, I really appreciate the information in this thread. I was thinking about Kosei wheels a while ago but decided to just ride what I have untill I have enough $$ to build a proper track car. Leaving my street car alone was the most wise decision I've taken in a while.
Best of luck,
Filip

This is exactly why I bought RG-R's.